Re: [Vo]:Electric (LENR) airplane
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: It is quite beautiful - and appeared recently at the Paris Air Show, but more of a powered glider. Hey, they didn't even show it airborne! Me, I like big planes like this C-17: http://www.c141heaven.info/dotcom/globemaster.php Look carefully, there really is a plane in the piccy.
RE: [Vo]:Electric (LENR) airplane
It is not a great leap of the imagination to suggest that the present HotCat is not far away from what is needed for the first LENR airplane... can we call it the CatBird? Little doubt it will be a drone, even if the EADS design was made for a human pilot (assuming that the deep pockets funder will be, who we think it will be). Imagine six HotCats, each requiring 300 watts input to produce 1800 watts output (6:1 COP as claimed). If the fractal-etched converter cells (antennae is more precise than photocell) are only 30% efficient, which is a fair estimate based on actual testing - then this is workable, but not optimized) as there is only a net electrical overage of 240 watts each or around 1440 watts for each 6-Cat array. Again, these fractal cells have been prototyped at exactly the expected temperature profile which is expected. Fortunately - this calculation overlooks the more likely situation where 6 HotCats can be arranged as a hexagonal core, with the planar fractal converter chips enclosing the core - so that each HotCat supplies most of the thermal input for the others by direct thermal coupling - and with the fractal photocells arranged in panels - outside of the central core to supply electrical current. Thus, with this slight revision, you have at least 200 watts of the required 300 which is needed supplied directly by thermal irradiation from adjoining cells, lessening the electrical input - so only 100 watts of electrical power is needed (for more precise control). This arrangement changes everything, since the net output of each cell is reduced by the 200 thermal watts captured by neighbors and only 1600 goes to irradiate the fractal antenna. The electrical output drops to 1600 x .3 or 480 per cell, minus the 100 needed as electrical feedback for precision thermal control. This is a total of 6 x 380 or 2880 watts net output ... instead of the original 1440 - essentially doubling the power that can be used to drive the propellers. If a single 6-Cat module of 2.88 kW is not enough, and it will probably not be enough to also power the spying gadgets, then many more modules can be added. For the weight of a pilot, this glider could have easily have 10 or 11 modules or 30 kW continuous. If that power can pull the Cat-Bird to the jet stream, The Pentagon could deploy hundreds of these CatBirds as surveillance drones all over the world, just like low-level satellites and in the end save millions ... ...and you thought the spying on citizens was already bad enough. You haven't seen anything yet. Given the present state of technology, and assuming that Rossi is not a fraud, and that the funder puts a few thousand engineers on this immediately - it could happen much sooner than expected. All of the parts are in place. L-M or Boeing are ready to move. It is just a matter of time. _ We have thrown out ideas for direct conversion before. At the high temperature of the HotCat, they become far more feasible. The most obvious one - if there is IR resonance as part of the operational parameters, is a photocell designed exactly for the emission spectrum. These have actually been fabricated http://cearl.ee.psu.edu/Projects/Assets/Project2/Project2_3_1/DualbandIRfilt ersDrupp0904.pdf Notice the wavelength captured is very specific to the geometry of the fractal which is etched. This favors high efficiency at say 20 terahertz - with efficiency possibly above the range of broad-band solar photocells. An optimist could imagine 6 HotCats in a hexagonal array, surrounded by these fractal antenna powering the EADS glider, manned (or more likely unmanned as a drone) for a very long time. Around the World in two weeks by 2015? In your dreams, maybe. Jones attachment: winmail.dat
RE: [Vo]:Electric (LENR) airplane
Actually, it doesn't take a lot of imaginations to visualize a direct gas turbine conversion. The core of the Hot Cat is a 33mm dia tube, so a finned bunch of these replacing the combustion chambers could make for an inefficient engine. Who cares about the efficiency in this case?
Re: [Vo]:Electric (LENR) airplane
Does it fly? --On Friday, June 21, 2013 7:08 AM -0700 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: With all the talk about NASA and an LENR powered airplane, it would seem that all that one needs now for the near-term reality - is to apply a HotCat with a direct conversion scheme - to this design for the E-plane. It is quite beautiful - and appeared recently at the Paris Air Show, but more of a powered glider. http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/21/new-electric-airplane-shown-off-at-p aris -air-show-video/?utm_source=feedburnerutm_medium=feedutm_campaign=Feed %3A+ IM-cleantechnica+%28CleanTechnica%29 We have thrown out ideas for direct conversion before. At the high temperature of the HotCat, they become far more feasible. The most obvious one - if there is IR resonance as part of the operational parameters, is a photocell designed exactly for the emission spectrum. These have actually been fabricated http://cearl.ee.psu.edu/Projects/Assets/Project2/Project2_3_1/DualbandIR filt ersDrupp0904.pdf Notice the wavelength captured is very specific to the geometry of the fractal which is etched. This favors high efficiency at say 20 terahertz - with efficiency possibly above the range of broad-band solar photocells. An optimist could imagine 6 HotCats in a hexagonal array, surrounded by these fractal antenna powering the EADS glider, manned (or more likely unmanned as a drone) for a very long time. Around the World in two weeks by 2015? In your dreams, maybe. Jones
RE: [Vo]:Electric (LENR) airplane
-Original Message- From: a.ashfield Actually, it doesn't take a lot of imaginations to visualize a direct gas turbine conversion. The core of the Hot Cat is a 33mm dia tube, so a finned bunch of these replacing the combustion chambers could make for an inefficient engine. Who cares about the efficiency in this case? OK - this gets back to the same argument which has come up several time previously. Efficiency does matter with the HotCat because: 1) Although LENR (in many forms) has demonstrated periods of infinite COP, everything we know about it indicates that the risk of thermal runaway rises disproportionately in those designs that do not have tight control. 2) Effective control must be maintained by a feedback loop design which does not permit a runaway condition under any circumstance. 3) IOW - The risk of runaway far outweighs the advantage of high COP. 4) Such a feedback design will by nature have a relatively low COP and moreover, this is amenable to accurate simulation. In the thermal simulations which have been run, and Dave may correct me on this- it appears that Rossi's COP of around six seems to fit within an ideal positive feedback design parameter - one which cannot easily lead to runaway. If that is the case, then the low COP which must be implemented may not eliminate a turbine as a viable option, but in the situation where one is needing power at the lowest possible weight, one would need to ask whether a turbine can provide a better power density than other alternatives. Jones
RE: [Vo]:Electric (LENR) airplane
-Original Message- From: Ron Wormus Does it fly? Hi Ron - No indication of it flying yet. As with the Convair Pogo they could be awaiting a brave test pilot :) Care to volunteer?
RE: [Vo]:Electric (LENR) airplane
Sure. I'd fly it around in ground effect. Those wing gear look pretty spindly though. I think they would be better served by putting the ducted electric fan on an existing sailplane design that just needs to get off the ground enough to find some lift. Then the batteries wouldn't need to be too large. Ron --On Friday, June 21, 2013 10:39 AM -0700 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: -Original Message- From: Ron Wormus Does it fly? Hi Ron - No indication of it flying yet. As with the Convair Pogo they could be awaiting a brave test pilot :) Care to volunteer?
RE: [Vo]:Electric (LENR) airplane
Jones, I wasn't suggesting this is anywhere close, but then neither is the electric powered version. We don't know enough about it to start a design, but consider Defkalion claim a much higher COP and to be able to switch it on and off. If heat is required, some aviation fuel could be burnt to supply it. Possibly some hybrid design, burning fuel to get added thrust for take off and then having LENR provide the cruise power. This is pre Wright Bros days for development but if LENR is what we currently think it is, it would be surprising if the control problems were not solved. The point is, a full load of fuel for a 747 can be 126,000 lb. Probably limited more by space than weight.
Re: [Vo]:Electric (LENR) airplane
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: It is not a great leap of the imagination to suggest that the present HotCat is not far away from what is needed for the first LENR airplane... can we call it the CatBird? lol and the first LENR boat will be called the Catfish... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWjDbU4KT2M harry
Re: [Vo]:Electric (LENR) airplane
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 21 Jun 2013 07:08:07 -0700: Hi, [snip] http://cleantechnica.com/2013/06/21/new-electric-airplane-shown-off-at-paris -air-show-video/?utm_source=feedburnerutm_medium=feedutm_campaign=Feed%3A+ IM-cleantechnica+%28CleanTechnica%29 I was disappointed that in the video they didn't turn over the motors, and it didn't actually fly. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
