Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
In reply to Axil Axil's message of Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:43:26 -0500: Hi, [snip] By the way, fusion of protons with transuranic elements is very unlikely. But if somehow a proton(s) got inside a super heavy nucleus, fission of the new transmuted element would almost certainly happen instantaneously. Such a fission reaction would be 20 time more energetic per incident (~200MeV) compared to the formation of copper from nickel (~10 MeV). If 2 or more protons are involved, it might also usually be a clean reaction that produces few if any radioisotopes. This is because the protons tend to compensate for the fact that heavy elements are neutron rich. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
This is why Rossi uses nickel enriched in Ni62 and Ni64 because these isotopes of nickel are the richest in excess neutrons within their nuclei. On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 9:45 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Axil Axil's message of Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:43:26 -0500: Hi, [snip] By the way, fusion of protons with transuranic elements is very unlikely. But if somehow a proton(s) got inside a super heavy nucleus, fission of the new transmuted element would almost certainly happen instantaneously. Such a fission reaction would be 20 time more energetic per incident (~200MeV) compared to the formation of copper from nickel (~10 MeV). If 2 or more protons are involved, it might also usually be a clean reaction that produces few if any radioisotopes. This is because the protons tend to compensate for the fact that heavy elements are neutron rich. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
In reply to Eric Walker's message of Tue, 17 Jan 2012 19:57:36 -0800: Hi, [snip] What if you could take something like uranium-238, which is relatively abundant, add sufficient neutrons to it and then let it alpha and beta decay to uranium-235? Since any amount of U235 created would be small, you would still have the problem of extracting it from the U238, just as you do with natural Uranium. In short no one would bother. Why wait years to get the equivalent of something that you can dig out of the ground right now? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
I don’t believe that neutrons are involved in the Rossi reaction. The best indication now is that two PROTONS gently tunnel their way into a heavy nucleus. Next, a truism of bomb physics: isotopes with even mass numbers cannot be used for a bomb. The mass number of U238 is 238. This is even. Therefore, this isotope cannot be used to make a bomb. The number of protons in the nucleus of an atom determines an element's atomic number. In other words, each element has a unique number that identifies how many protons are in one atom of that element. For example, all hydrogen atoms, and only hydrogen atoms, contain one proton and have an atomic number of 1. All carbon atoms, and only carbon atoms, contain six protons and have an atomic number of 6. Oxygen atoms contain 8 protons and have an atomic number of 8. Adding two protons to U238 will give Plutonium 240. This stuff has an even mass number and cannot be used to make a bomb. Only odd mass number isotopes can provide feedstock for bombs: that is U233, U235, Pu239, and Np237. On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Sure, the US went off the gold standard decades ago (a mistake in my opinion), but where does money get invested when currencies weaken… precious metals. You do realize that we’re not just talking transmutation of two or three elements… the LENR tests which looked for transmuted elements found many… some over ten different elements, and I’m not counting isotopes as separate elements. LENR would most likely have a very disruptive impact on that market… which has advantages as well as disadvans… a lot of those metals are used in technologies like integrated circuits and special alloys for aircraft, and the price will come down, which is good for the consumer. Yeah -- I've taken a look at some of the NAA and SIMS spectra. The isotopes are all over the map. If the data are taken at face value, it looks like whatever you put on the nickel or palladium surface could potentially be modified significantly. It's interesting on some level to think that you could generate isotopes using a controlled process of some kind, and being able to do this would no doubt be valuable for scientific and technological applications. But there are three considerations that give me pause, here. The first two are related to evidence and the third to safety. First, a lot of the spectra in the papers are small and hard to read and don't give you clear error bars, so it's difficult to get a sense of how much above error the shifts are at the end of the experiment. Some papers give this level of detail, which is helpful to have. But in any event the following slides give a good overview of some of the subtleties involved in this kind of measurement: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ApicellaMmassspectr.pdf. Second, I don't have a good sense of what the difference between a genuine shift in isotopes, on one hand, and contamination of some kind, on the other, would look like. The question legitimately arises whether there are simply impurities in the hydrogen gas or heavy water that are glomming onto the cathode. I imagine there are some people who could look at the spectra and immediately get a sense of the difference. A third concern relates to safety. The possibility has already been brought up that if these experiments emit gamma rays (I've read several papers that indicate that they do under certain circumstances), then it's likely that any devices would be regulated. It's fine to create regulations, but since such devices involve components that you can purchase over the Internet and assemble at home, there's only so much you can do to keep any emerging technology under control. What if you could take something like uranium-238, which is relatively abundant, add sufficient neutrons to it and then let it alpha and beta decay to uranium-235? This is the kind of thing that happens in the course of r-process nucleosynthesis, which seems like it might be similar to what is going on in LENR. This chart suggests that if you can get something into the actinide series, you're well on your way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Radioactive_decay_chains_diagram.svg I can only imagine that there are complications here and there, including losing relatively unstable isotopes before they can accumulate. But the larger point is that the discovery of LENR, if it is real, might have negative implications as well as positive ones.
Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
By the way, fusion of protons with transuranic elements is very unlikely. But if somehow a proton(s) got inside a super heavy nucleus, fission of the new transmuted element would almost certainly happen instantaneously. Such a fission reaction would be 20 time more energetic per incident (~200MeV) compared to the formation of copper from nickel (~10 MeV). On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Sure, the US went off the gold standard decades ago (a mistake in my opinion), but where does money get invested when currencies weaken… precious metals. You do realize that we’re not just talking transmutation of two or three elements… the LENR tests which looked for transmuted elements found many… some over ten different elements, and I’m not counting isotopes as separate elements. LENR would most likely have a very disruptive impact on that market… which has advantages as well as disadvans… a lot of those metals are used in technologies like integrated circuits and special alloys for aircraft, and the price will come down, which is good for the consumer. Yeah -- I've taken a look at some of the NAA and SIMS spectra. The isotopes are all over the map. If the data are taken at face value, it looks like whatever you put on the nickel or palladium surface could potentially be modified significantly. It's interesting on some level to think that you could generate isotopes using a controlled process of some kind, and being able to do this would no doubt be valuable for scientific and technological applications. But there are three considerations that give me pause, here. The first two are related to evidence and the third to safety. First, a lot of the spectra in the papers are small and hard to read and don't give you clear error bars, so it's difficult to get a sense of how much above error the shifts are at the end of the experiment. Some papers give this level of detail, which is helpful to have. But in any event the following slides give a good overview of some of the subtleties involved in this kind of measurement: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ApicellaMmassspectr.pdf. Second, I don't have a good sense of what the difference between a genuine shift in isotopes, on one hand, and contamination of some kind, on the other, would look like. The question legitimately arises whether there are simply impurities in the hydrogen gas or heavy water that are glomming onto the cathode. I imagine there are some people who could look at the spectra and immediately get a sense of the difference. A third concern relates to safety. The possibility has already been brought up that if these experiments emit gamma rays (I've read several papers that indicate that they do under certain circumstances), then it's likely that any devices would be regulated. It's fine to create regulations, but since such devices involve components that you can purchase over the Internet and assemble at home, there's only so much you can do to keep any emerging technology under control. What if you could take something like uranium-238, which is relatively abundant, add sufficient neutrons to it and then let it alpha and beta decay to uranium-235? This is the kind of thing that happens in the course of r-process nucleosynthesis, which seems like it might be similar to what is going on in LENR. This chart suggests that if you can get something into the actinide series, you're well on your way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Radioactive_decay_chains_diagram.svg I can only imagine that there are complications here and there, including losing relatively unstable isotopes before they can accumulate. But the larger point is that the discovery of LENR, if it is real, might have negative implications as well as positive ones.
Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: LENR just made petroleum obsolete. Then, currencies will be Nickel-based? Or what? bitcoin :) It makes sense actually since bitcoin relies on wasting lots of now unlimited energy. Rob
Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:29 AM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Then, currencies will be Nickel-based? Well, we certainly can't make them hydrogen-based since anyone could print money using electrolysis. ;-) T
Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
In reply to Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint's message of Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:29:56 -0800: Hi, [snip] In addition, if currencies are based on the petro$, then that's going to collapse like a tons of bricks when the financial industry realizes that LENR just made petroleum obsolete. Then, currencies will be Nickel-based? Or what? ...there is really only one thing that all humans agree is valuable: human effort. Everyone values their own time. It may be the only resource that will remain scarce. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
At last a theme where I can contribute, being an economist. :-) Money today is Fiat money. There is no correlation between the dollar and the oil. Oil has its price on dollar, not the other way around. Currencies have their value based on several things, amongst which: government credibility, inflation expectations, public debt, interests, etc... There would be significant changes in currencies exchange prices if the oil economy should collapse. But that is not because the oil backup today's currencies, but because some of those things that holds some currencies values worldwide would change significantly. I mean, lending money to Venezuela or Russia could be a bad idea, since these countries currencies value depends a lot on oil/gas exports. People would sell bolivares and rublos because their perception of these currencies risk would increase overnight. America would have a smaller trade deficit and China would have an even larger trade surplus. What would happen to the financial markets wordwide? Nobody knows... Oil/Gas companies are either first or second largest companies in some very large markets like USA, China, Brazil, Great Britain, France and Russia stock exchanges... The electricity generation and distribution companies are also very important for the financial markets, as those companies usually are blue chips and long term safe houses. Best regards, Bruno 2012/1/17 mix...@bigpond.com In reply to Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint's message of Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:29:56 -0800: Hi, [snip] In addition, if currencies are based on the petro$, then that's going to collapse like a tons of bricks when the financial industry realizes that LENR just made petroleum obsolete. Then, currencies will be Nickel-based? Or what? ...there is really only one thing that all humans agree is valuable: human effort. Everyone values their own time. It may be the only resource that will remain scarce. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Sure, the US went off the gold standard decades ago (a mistake in my opinion), but where does money get invested when currencies weaken… precious metals. You do realize that we’re not just talking transmutation of two or three elements… the LENR tests which looked for transmuted elements found many… some over ten different elements, and I’m not counting isotopes as separate elements. LENR would most likely have a very disruptive impact on that market… which has advantages as well as disadvans… a lot of those metals are used in technologies like integrated circuits and special alloys for aircraft, and the price will come down, which is good for the consumer. Yeah -- I've taken a look at some of the NAA and SIMS spectra. The isotopes are all over the map. If the data are taken at face value, it looks like whatever you put on the nickel or palladium surface could potentially be modified significantly. It's interesting on some level to think that you could generate isotopes using a controlled process of some kind, and being able to do this would no doubt be valuable for scientific and technological applications. But there are three considerations that give me pause, here. The first two are related to evidence and the third to safety. First, a lot of the spectra in the papers are small and hard to read and don't give you clear error bars, so it's difficult to get a sense of how much above error the shifts are at the end of the experiment. Some papers give this level of detail, which is helpful to have. But in any event the following slides give a good overview of some of the subtleties involved in this kind of measurement: http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ApicellaMmassspectr.pdf. Second, I don't have a good sense of what the difference between a genuine shift in isotopes, on one hand, and contamination of some kind, on the other, would look like. The question legitimately arises whether there are simply impurities in the hydrogen gas or heavy water that are glomming onto the cathode. I imagine there are some people who could look at the spectra and immediately get a sense of the difference. A third concern relates to safety. The possibility has already been brought up that if these experiments emit gamma rays (I've read several papers that indicate that they do under certain circumstances), then it's likely that any devices would be regulated. It's fine to create regulations, but since such devices involve components that you can purchase over the Internet and assemble at home, there's only so much you can do to keep any emerging technology under control. What if you could take something like uranium-238, which is relatively abundant, add sufficient neutrons to it and then let it alpha and beta decay to uranium-235? This is the kind of thing that happens in the course of r-process nucleosynthesis, which seems like it might be similar to what is going on in LENR. This chart suggests that if you can get something into the actinide series, you're well on your way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Radioactive_decay_chains_diagram.svg I can only imagine that there are complications here and there, including losing relatively unstable isotopes before they can accumulate. But the larger point is that the discovery of LENR, if it is real, might have negative implications as well as positive ones.
RE: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
Welcome Bruno! Hey, Vorts, has the Collective ever had the contributions from an economist before? Anyway, Bruno, thanks for your comments, and I would encourage you to analyze this from the perspective that it is *real*, that it is an entirely new type of nuclear/chemical reaction, and will result in replacing petroleum as the energy source for the world. I think the Collective would very much like to hear what an economist thinks will happen. how is this going to affect the financial markets. Your insights will bring a very different and welcome perspective. although, don't be surprised if some Vorts argue some of the points with you! We are an opinionated bunch. J -Mark From: Bruno Santos [mailto:besantos1...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 5:06 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency At last a theme where I can contribute, being an economist. :-) Money today is Fiat money. There is no correlation between the dollar and the oil. Oil has its price on dollar, not the other way around. Currencies have their value based on several things, amongst which: government credibility, inflation expectations, public debt, interests, etc... There would be significant changes in currencies exchange prices if the oil economy should collapse. But that is not because the oil backup today's currencies, but because some of those things that holds some currencies values worldwide would change significantly. I mean, lending money to Venezuela or Russia could be a bad idea, since these countries currencies value depends a lot on oil/gas exports. People would sell bolivares and rublos because their perception of these currencies risk would increase overnight. America would have a smaller trade deficit and China would have an even larger trade surplus. What would happen to the financial markets wordwide? Nobody knows... Oil/Gas companies are either first or second largest companies in some very large markets like USA, China, Brazil, Great Britain, France and Russia stock exchanges... The electricity generation and distribution companies are also very important for the financial markets, as those companies usually are blue chips and long term safe houses. Best regards, Bruno 2012/1/17 mix...@bigpond.com In reply to Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint's message of Mon, 16 Jan 2012 23:29:56 -0800: Hi, [snip] In addition, if currencies are based on the petro$, then that's going to collapse like a tons of bricks when the financial industry realizes that LENR just made petroleum obsolete. Then, currencies will be Nickel-based? Or what? ...there is really only one thing that all humans agree is valuable: human effort. Everyone values their own time. It may be the only resource that will remain scarce. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
I had a similar thought after I pressed send. Oh well. I'm not an economist, but I think today's currencies are all fiat currencies now (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money). But some countries still keep bullion around ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bullion_Depository), presumably for purposes distantly related to the value of the currency. But, yeah, that's what I get for going off on a wild flight of speculation. Eric On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Wm. Scott Smith scott...@hotmail.comwrote: *I really don't think there is any direct connection between precious metals and modern currencies.* * Last I heard:* Today's Currencies are based on the price of oil in $USD since a large part of the World's Oil Supply is *only *traded in terms of $USD aka the Petrodollar Has anything definitively changed? (On another topicI think this is how the leading US export is freshly printed dollars!!!LOL) -- From: zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:LENR is not a disruptive technology... Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:53:11 -0800 Eric, I suggest you read my entire posting… I was being facetious, and stated that ‘disruptive’ is not going far enough. -m *From:* Eric Walker [mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:45 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:LENR is not a disruptive technology... LENR would be quite disruptive if it even replaced 10 percent of the world energy supply over the next twenty years. If it turns out to be bona fide and something that can be commercialized (hopefully we'll get a sense of this soon), and barring some unforeseen impediment to its widespread adoption, it's not difficult to imagine that it could replace well beyond 10 percent of the energy supply over time. As a thought experiment, assume that LENR effectively makes energy free during the next 100 years. Find some activity of concern to the majority of people on the planet that is limited in some way by scarcity -- agricultural production, water distribution, the generation of heat and electricity, heavy manufacturing, transportation, housing. The cost of these activities would go down significantly. It's hard to even get a sense of what the implications of such a development would be. Now consider the possibility of mass scale production of isotopes by way of controlled transmutation. It would be an understatement to say that this would be disruptive. Precious metals would become commodities, and the already tenuous connection between gold and silver and the monetary supply would probably be broken. But more worryingly, it might be possible to order up as much uranium-235 as you want. So for the sake of widespread, unencumbered adoption of LENR, let's hope that energy production becomes easy and transmutation of heavier elements proves to be difficult or impossible. Eric On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: AussieGuy wrote: “Transmutation of elements via the FPE may replace mining.” It’ll do more than that… it’ll kill the entire precious metals business which has been a foundation for countries’ **monetary systems**. What affect that will have on economic systems, and countries, is probably not going to be pretty… in the beginning. With energy being extremely cheap, it will drive down the cost of just about everything from raw materials to completed products… and it’ll be much cheaper to transport those things to the point of consumption, so we’re talking about much lower cost for most **everything**.It wouldn’t surprise me if govts stepped in to bring in the changes gradually… But how does one decide what to do when this is probably unlike anything that has ever happened; nothing to go on. **To call LENR a ‘disruptive’ technology doesn’t even begin to describe it!** -Mark
RE: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency
Sure, the US went off the gold standard decades ago (a mistake in my opinion), but where does money get invested when currencies weaken. precious metals. You do realize that we're not just talking transmutation of two or three elements. the LENR tests which looked for transmuted elements found many. some over ten different elements, and I'm not counting isotopes as separate elements. LENR would most likely have a very disruptive impact on that market. which has advantages as well as disadvans. a lot of those metals are used in technologies like integrated circuits and special alloys for aircraft, and the price will come down, which is good for the consumer. In addition, if currencies are based on the petro$, then that's going to collapse like a tons of bricks when the financial industry realizes that LENR just made petroleum obsolete. Then, currencies will be Nickel-based? Or what? -m From: Wm. Scott Smith [mailto:scott...@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 1:21 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:LENR G Silver Currency I really don't think there is any direct connection between precious metals and modern currencies. Last I heard: Today's Currencies are based on the price of oil in $USD since a large part of the World's Oil Supply is only traded in terms of $USD aka the Petrodollar Has anything definitively changed? (On another topicI think this is how the leading US export is freshly printed dollars!!!LOL) _ From: zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:LENR is not a disruptive technology... Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:53:11 -0800 Eric, I suggest you read my entire posting. I was being facetious, and stated that 'disruptive' is not going far enough. -m From: Eric Walker [mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:45 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:LENR is not a disruptive technology... LENR would be quite disruptive if it even replaced 10 percent of the world energy supply over the next twenty years. If it turns out to be bona fide and something that can be commercialized (hopefully we'll get a sense of this soon), and barring some unforeseen impediment to its widespread adoption, it's not difficult to imagine that it could replace well beyond 10 percent of the energy supply over time. As a thought experiment, assume that LENR effectively makes energy free during the next 100 years. Find some activity of concern to the majority of people on the planet that is limited in some way by scarcity -- agricultural production, water distribution, the generation of heat and electricity, heavy manufacturing, transportation, housing. The cost of these activities would go down significantly. It's hard to even get a sense of what the implications of such a development would be. Now consider the possibility of mass scale production of isotopes by way of controlled transmutation. It would be an understatement to say that this would be disruptive. Precious metals would become commodities, and the already tenuous connection between gold and silver and the monetary supply would probably be broken. But more worryingly, it might be possible to order up as much uranium-235 as you want. So for the sake of widespread, unencumbered adoption of LENR, let's hope that energy production becomes easy and transmutation of heavier elements proves to be difficult or impossible. Eric On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: AussieGuy wrote: Transmutation of elements via the FPE may replace mining. It'll do more than that. it'll kill the entire precious metals business which has been a foundation for countries' *monetary systems*. What affect that will have on economic systems, and countries, is probably not going to be pretty. in the beginning. With energy being extremely cheap, it will drive down the cost of just about everything from raw materials to completed products. and it'll be much cheaper to transport those things to the point of consumption, so we're talking about much lower cost for most *everything*.It wouldn't surprise me if govts stepped in to bring in the changes gradually. But how does one decide what to do when this is probably unlike anything that has ever happened; nothing to go on. *To call LENR a 'disruptive' technology doesn't even begin to describe it!* -Mark
