Re: [webkit-dev] Could not find answer: Build and run Cairo Webkit on XP

2012-01-19 Thread cwienands

Hello Brent,

thank you for your fast reply and action. I'll try out the new
WinCairoRequirements.zip later today.

Christoph
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://old.nabble.com/Could-not-find-answer%3A-Build-and-run-Cairo-Webkit-on-XP-tp33158989p33168083.html
Sent from the Webkit mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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[webkit-dev] *.webkit.org is down

2012-01-19 Thread Alexis Menard
Hi,

It seems that *.webkit.org are down (bugs.webkit.org, trace.webkit.org, …).

Here in Brazil we can't access to any of them. I tried two different internet 
providers with their own DNS and I even tried google DNS with no luck.

Talking to some people in #webkit it seems that not everyone is affected (maybe 
only people outside US?).

Anyone who knows where the servers sits would mind to have a look at them?

Thank you very much.
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Re: [webkit-dev] *.webkit.org is down

2012-01-19 Thread Alexis Menard

On Jan 19, 2012, at 5:19 PM, Alexis Menard wrote:

 Hi,
 
 It seems that *.webkit.org are down (bugs.webkit.org, trace.webkit.org, …).

I meant trac.webkit.org (Mac OS Lion auto-correction is too efficient).

 
 Here in Brazil we can't access to any of them. I tried two different internet 
 providers with their own DNS and I even tried google DNS with no luck.
 
 Talking to some people in #webkit it seems that not everyone is affected 
 (maybe only people outside US?).
 
 Anyone who knows where the servers sits would mind to have a look at them?
 
 Thank you very much.

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Re: [webkit-dev] *.webkit.org is down

2012-01-19 Thread Konstantin Tokarev


20.01.2012, 00:19, Alexis Menard alexis.men...@openbossa.org:
 Hi,

 It seems that *.webkit.org are down (bugs.webkit.org, trace.webkit.org, …).

 Here in Brazil we can't access to any of them. I tried two different internet 
 providers with their own DNS and I even tried google DNS with no luck.

 Talking to some people in #webkit it seems that not everyone is affected 
 (maybe only people outside US?).

 Anyone who knows where the servers sits would mind to have a look at them?

For Moscow both sites are up.

-- 
Regards,
Konstantin
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Re: [webkit-dev] *.webkit.org is down

2012-01-19 Thread Jarred Nicholls
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Alexis Menard
alexis.men...@openbossa.orgwrote:

 Hi,

 It seems that *.webkit.org are down (bugs.webkit.org, trace.webkit.org,
 …).


I can confirm here in Maryland, USA that www, bugs, trac, etc. are all up.



 Here in Brazil we can't access to any of them. I tried two different
 internet providers with their own DNS and I even tried google DNS with no
 luck.


Might you try OpenDNS?  208.67.222.222/208.67.220.220


 Talking to some people in #webkit it seems that not everyone is affected
 (maybe only people outside US?).

 Anyone who knows where the servers sits would mind to have a look at them?

 Thank you very much.
 ___
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 webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
 http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev

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Re: [webkit-dev] *.webkit.org is down

2012-01-19 Thread Philip Rogers
http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/

(It's up for me too).

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Jarred Nicholls jar...@webkit.org wrote:

 On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Alexis Menard 
 alexis.men...@openbossa.org wrote:

 Hi,

 It seems that *.webkit.org are down (bugs.webkit.org, trace.webkit.org,
 …).


 I can confirm here in Maryland, USA that www, bugs, trac, etc. are all up.



 Here in Brazil we can't access to any of them. I tried two different
 internet providers with their own DNS and I even tried google DNS with no
 luck.


 Might you try OpenDNS?  208.67.222.222/208.67.220.220


 Talking to some people in #webkit it seems that not everyone is affected
 (maybe only people outside US?).

 Anyone who knows where the servers sits would mind to have a look at them?

 Thank you very much.
 ___
 webkit-dev mailing list
 webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
 http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev



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Re: [webkit-dev] *.webkit.org is down

2012-01-19 Thread Gustavo Noronha Silva
Hey Bill,

Still having trouble, my IP is 186.213.109.123, but it looks like the
problem is in the path between Brazil and your datacenter. Huge packet
losses as soon as we get into the telefonica network:

kov@goiaba ~ mtr -w -r -c 100 bugs.webkit.org
HOST: goiaba
Loss%   Snt   Last   Avg  Best  Wrst StDev
[…]
  4.|-- 187.115.193.162.static.host.gvt.net.br  
   0.0%   1005.0   9.9   4.8 137.1  20.6
  5.|-- 187.115.215.54.static.host.gvt.net.br   
   0.0%   1009.1  12.2   5.1  23.3   4.0
  6.|-- 187.115.216.33.static.host.gvt.net.br   
   0.0%   100   18.4  21.4  13.3  34.3   4.1
  7.|-- 187.115.216.157.static.host.gvt.net.br  
   0.0%   100   37.8  40.5  36.8  56.5   4.4
  8.|-- 187.115.216.174.static.host.gvt.net.br  
   0.0%   100   37.9  38.3  37.0  52.2   2.4
  9.|-- Xe0-1-0-0-grtssatw1.red.telefonica-wholesale.net.7.16.84.in-addr.arpa   
  91.0%   100  215.4 225.5 213.9 302.6  28.9
 10.|-- Xe5-2-0-0-grtfortw1.red.telefonica-wholesale.net
  86.0%   100  239.6 221.7 214.6 239.6   5.9
 11.|-- 
Xe11-0-0-0-grtmiabr4.red.telefonica-wholesale.net.123.142.94.in-addr.arpa 90.0% 
  100  243.9 231.7 215.0 274.1  19.0
 12.|-- Xe0-1-6-0-grtmiana3.red.telefonica-wholesale.net
  91.0%   100  214.0 233.6 214.0 345.1  42.9
|  `|-- 176.52.249.150
|   |-- 94.142.119.229
|   |-- 213.140.36.89
|   |-- 94.142.123.1
|   |-- 176.52.249.146
|   |-- 213.140.37.77
|   |-- 213.140.43.141
 13.|-- Xe3-0-0-0-grtmcacc1.red.telefonica-wholesale.net
  93.0%   100  213.9 216.4 210.7 220.1   3.5
|  `|-- 213.140.37.25
 14.|-- 
GE4-3-2-0-gramtyma2.red.telefonica-wholesale.net.127.142.94.in-addr.arpa  87.0% 
  100  215.7 214.7 212.7 216.8   1.3
 15.|-- 84.16.14.50 
  86.0%   100  217.1 216.3 212.8 222.1   2.6
 16.|-- 
Xe1-1-1-0-grtdaleq3.red.telefonica-wholesale.net.122.142.94.in-addr.arpa  88.9% 
   99  210.4 226.8 210.4 274.0  23.1
 17.|-- 192.205.35.249  
  90.8%98  222.6 227.4 213.9 263.1  17.4
|  `|-- 213.140.53.62
 18.|-- cr2.dlstx.ip.att.net
  83.7%98  263.8 262.5 258.6 265.6   2.5
 19.|-- cr2.la2ca.ip.att.net
  85.6%97  260.6 269.4 260.6 315.9  15.2
 20.|-- cr2.sffca.ip.att.net
  83.3%96  260.9 263.6 255.1 272.3   3.8
 21.|-- cr84.sffca.ip.att.net   
  84.2%95  260.7 261.3 259.0 263.7   1.4
 22.|-- gar1.placa.ip.att.net   
  86.2%94  256.3 261.6 256.3 291.7   9.2
 23.|-- ??? 
  100.0930.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0
 24.|-- ??? 
  100.0900.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0
 25.|-- ??? 
  100.0900.0   0.0   0.0   0.0   0.0
 26.|-- bugs.webkit.org 
  89.9%89  259.8 261.6 258.3 265.9   2.5

The good news is the path to us.logon.battle.net is fine, so we can go
play WoW instead of hacking WebKit =X

Cheers,

On Thu, 2012-01-19 at 13:05 -0800, William Siegrist wrote:
 If you are still having trouble access the site, send me your IP
 address and I will see if its anything on the server. 
 
 
 -Bill
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On Jan 19, 2012, at 12:34 PM, Jesus Sanchez-Palencia wrote:
 
  I'm also in Brazil and I can confirm it doesn't work for me as well.
  
  
  I guess kov is also in Brazil and I just saw him mentioning on IRC
  that  both bugs.webkit.org and git.webkit.org are timing out...
  
  
  Cheers,
  Jesus
  
  On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Philip Rogers p...@google.com
  wrote:
  http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/
  
  
  (It's up for me too).
  
  
  On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Jarred Nicholls
  jar...@webkit.org wrote:
  On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Alexis Menard
  alexis.men...@openbossa.org wrote:
  Hi,
  
  It seems that *.webkit.org are down
  (bugs.webkit.org, trace.webkit.org, …).
  
  
  I can confirm here in Maryland, USA that www, bugs,
  trac, etc. are all up.
   
  
  Here in Brazil we can't access to 

Re: [webkit-dev] Removing deprecatedFrameEncoding

2012-01-19 Thread Geoffrey Garen
 We don't typically add #ifdefs to cross-platform WebKit code solely to make 
 different choices about web standards and web compatibility in different 
 ports. (Have we ever done that before?) It strikes me as destructive to 
 WebKit and the web to start doing so now. I'm strongly opposed to this 
 option.
 
 Really?

Yes, really.

   https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-January/019105.html

The URL you pasted shows Jon removing a feature that isn't used by the web (not 
analogous to this situation), after no objection (not analogous to this 
situation), and proposing removing it for the whole project on the same grounds 
(consistent with the goals I've stated).

Geoff
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Re: [webkit-dev] New CSS property -webkit-control-text-overflow

2012-01-19 Thread Jon Lee
Fair enough, reusing text-overflow introduces the fewest changes, and would be 
the best option for authors to use. I will update the bug patch to use that 
property instead, and close the issue on the www-style list.

Thanks for everyone's input!
Jon

On Jan 16, 2012, at 1:54 PM, David Hyatt wrote:

 I strongly disagree with the reasoning in that post. You say:
 
 As an author, I would find it strange that upon focus of a text input the 
 ellipsis would just disappear.
 
 I think it would be even stranger for the ellipsis not to disappear and to be 
 editing a truncated version of the input field's value. What does that that 
 even mean? I'd rather the author be surprised than the user!
 
 It seems like the options are:
 
 (1) Ignore text-overflow completely on text fields. Support a new property 
 for the dynamic display of the full text when focused.
 (2) Honor text-overflow strictly on text fields. Support a new property for 
 the dynamic display of the full text when focused.
 (3) Use text-overflow for the dynamic display of the full text when focused.
 
 To me (3) is clearly the most attractive choice. (1) would surprise authors 
 by having text-overflow not work. (2) would surprise both authors and users 
 by having text-overflow work badly when you focused the control.
 
 I see absolutely no reason to introduce a new property here, especially after 
 hearing that Gecko just made text-overflow do this already. My expectation is 
 that we would match Gecko's behavior and not introduce a new property.
 
 dave
 (hy...@apple.com)
 
 On Jan 16, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Jon Lee wrote:
 
 There is a thread on the www-style list that discusses this point:
 
 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jan/0687.html
 
 On Jan 16, 2012, at 11:41 AM, David Hyatt wrote:
 
 I have the same question. Can you explain why text-overflow is 
 insufficient? I think in this case it would be acceptable behavior to just 
 make text-overflow behave the way you want, i.e., no longer showing the 
 ellipsis while the user is actively typing in the focused control seems 
 like fine behavior even for text-overflow.
 
 dave
 (hy...@apple.com)
 
 On Jan 13, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Ojan Vafai wrote:
 
 Is this specced anywhere? Do we need a new CSS property? Could we just 
 make text-overflow work on text inputs?
 
 On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:30 PM, Jon Lee jon...@apple.com wrote:
 Hi WebKit!
 
 I wanted to let you know that we would like to add a new CSS property 
 -webkit-control-text-overflow. It is a non-inheritable property that can 
 only be applied to single-line text inputs. Acceptable values are the same 
 as text-overflow, i.e. clip and ellipsis.
 
 When the input is set with the ellipsis value, both the placeholder and 
 inner text value of the input render with an ellipsis if the text 
 overflows and the input is not focused. When the input becomes focused, 
 the placeholder or text value renders clipped, as before.
 
 Although this is a small enhancement to text controls, we think this is 
 especially useful for authors developing on the mac platform, since the 
 analog native widgets behave similarly.
 
 The bug that tracks this is: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76118
 
 Jon
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Re: [webkit-dev] Removing deprecatedFrameEncoding

2012-01-19 Thread Adam Barth
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Geoffrey Garen gga...@apple.com wrote:
 We don't typically add #ifdefs to cross-platform WebKit code solely to make 
 different choices about web standards and web compatibility in different 
 ports. (Have we ever done that before?) It strikes me as destructive to 
 WebKit and the web to start doing so now. I'm strongly opposed to this 
 option.

 Really?

 Yes, really.

   https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2012-January/019105.html

 The URL you pasted shows Jon removing a feature that isn't used by the web 
 (not analogous to this situation), after no objection (not analogous to this 
 situation), and proposing removing it for the whole project on the same 
 grounds (consistent with the goals I've stated).

I'm not sure I understand the difference.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to engage in this discussion.  I'm
going to write up a summary of the various points of view and propose
a path forward.

Thanks,
Adam
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Re: [webkit-dev] *.webkit.org is down

2012-01-19 Thread William Siegrist
If you are still having trouble access the site, send me your IP address and I 
will see if its anything on the server. 

-Bill




On Jan 19, 2012, at 12:34 PM, Jesus Sanchez-Palencia wrote:

 I'm also in Brazil and I can confirm it doesn't work for me as well.
 
 I guess kov is also in Brazil and I just saw him mentioning on IRC that  
 both bugs.webkit.org and git.webkit.org are timing out...
 
 Cheers,
 Jesus
 
 On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Philip Rogers p...@google.com wrote:
 http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/
 
 (It's up for me too).
 
 
 On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Jarred Nicholls jar...@webkit.org wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Alexis Menard alexis.men...@openbossa.org 
 wrote:
 Hi,
 
 It seems that *.webkit.org are down (bugs.webkit.org, trace.webkit.org, …).
 
 I can confirm here in Maryland, USA that www, bugs, trac, etc. are all up.
  
 
 Here in Brazil we can't access to any of them. I tried two different internet 
 providers with their own DNS and I even tried google DNS with no luck. 
 
 Might you try OpenDNS?  208.67.222.222/208.67.220.220
 
 
 Talking to some people in #webkit it seems that not everyone is affected 
 (maybe only people outside US?).
 
 Anyone who knows where the servers sits would mind to have a look at them?
 
 Thank you very much.
 ___
 webkit-dev mailing list
 webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
 http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
 
 
 ___
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 webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
 http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
 
 
 
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Re: [webkit-dev] *.webkit.org is down

2012-01-19 Thread Jesus Sanchez-Palencia
It's back! :)

cheers,
jesus

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 7:26 PM, William Siegrist wsiegr...@apple.comwrote:

 I think you have the same problem as Gustavo. His email to webkit-dev
 seems to imply a problem in between Brazil and webkit.org.

 -Bill


 On Jan 19, 2012, at 2:00 PM, Alexis Menard wrote:

  Hi,
 
  I can't also access from home : IP - 186.215.1.122
 
  Thanks.
 
  On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 6:05 PM, William Siegrist wsiegr...@apple.com
 wrote:
  If you are still having trouble access the site, send me your IP
 address and
  I will see if its anything on the server.
 
  -Bill
 
 
 
 
  On Jan 19, 2012, at 12:34 PM, Jesus Sanchez-Palencia wrote:
 
  I'm also in Brazil and I can confirm it doesn't work for me as well.
 
  I guess kov is also in Brazil and I just saw him mentioning on IRC that
   both bugs.webkit.org and git.webkit.org are timing out...
 
  Cheers,
  Jesus
 
  On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Philip Rogers p...@google.com wrote:
 
  http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/
 
  (It's up for me too).
 
 
  On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Jarred Nicholls jar...@webkit.org
  wrote:
 
  On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Alexis Menard
  alexis.men...@openbossa.org wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  It seems that *.webkit.org are down (bugs.webkit.org,
 trace.webkit.org,
  …).
 
 
  I can confirm here in Maryland, USA that www, bugs, trac, etc. are all
  up.
 
 
 
  Here in Brazil we can't access to any of them. I tried two different
  internet providers with their own DNS and I even tried google DNS
 with no
  luck.
 
 
  Might you try OpenDNS?  208.67.222.222/208.67.220.220
 
 
  Talking to some people in #webkit it seems that not everyone is
 affected
  (maybe only people outside US?).
 
  Anyone who knows where the servers sits would mind to have a look at
  them?
 
  Thank you very much.
  ___
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  http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
 
 
 
  ___
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  ___
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  ___
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  --
  Alexis Menard (darktears)
  Software Engineer
  INdT Recife Brazil


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Re: [webkit-dev] HTML notification usage

2012-01-19 Thread David Levin
TLDR Sorry for the long delay in responding but the chromium folks need to
delay slight longer before giving a response.

On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Kenneth Rohde Christiansen 
kenneth.christian...@gmail.com wrote:

 Could anyone brief explain the relation to

 http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/notifications/quick/

 and

 http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/Notifications.html

 ?

 I haven't followed the work with regard to notifications, so is that
 work dead or are we removing legacy code?


afaik Chromium is the only browser to support HTML notifications (maybe QT
does as well? I thought I saw some patch there) and I don't think any other
browser wants to support them. However other browsers are supporting text
notifications.

There are some Chromium extensions that potentially use them, so that
creates some trouble for us to remove them but it doesn't necessarily make
it impossible.


 On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Jon Lee jon...@apple.com wrote:
  Hello all,
 
  I've removed support for HTML notifications on the Mac via
 http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/105086. Does anyone find much usage for
 this kind of notification on their respective platforms? Would it be
 appropriate to remove support for this altogether?


We're discussing this with folks that have the biggest stake. We're working
as fast as we can and making progress in reaching a consensus -- thanks to
Jian Li -- (but have been slightly slowed down by the snow fall up here in
the Seattle are which has made our communications). Personally, I'd like to
get rid of them BUT that decision isn't up to me, so we need a few more
days to talk to people and come up with an appropriate course of action.
(If we want to get rid of it, we'll likely need to leave it in for a bit to
give users a little time to transition off of it.)

(Hopefully the snow will melt shortly and it will make people more
accessible.)

dave
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[webkit-dev] Introducing run-perf-tests and Adding Performance Bots

2012-01-19 Thread Ryosuke Niwa
Hi WebKittens,

*Executive Summary*

   - I've added Tools/Scripts/run-perf-test, try out
   - Please add --no-timeout and --timeout options to your DRT
   - Perf-o-matic coming on webkit-perf.appspot.com, a clone of
   graphs.mozilla.org
   - Chromium Mac perf bots coming on build.webkit.org
   - Use PerformanceTests/Parser/resources/runner.js to write new
   performance tests


*Background*
We have some performance tests in PerformanceTests but they're not ran by
any bots. In fact, there are no performance bots at all on build.webkit.org.
While Chromium has perf
botshttp://build.chromium.org/p/chromium.perf/console,
we can only see progressions and regressions triggered by WebKit changes
when Chromium gets a WebKit roll (pulling newer version of WebKit), which
happens only a handful times a day. It doesn't scale to the rate at which
we're making changes to WebKit and the visibility and the usability of bots
are not great for non-Chromium WebKit contributors. Furthermore, Chromium
perf bots will not catch JSC progressions and regressions at all.

*Means to Run Performance Tests*
I've added Tools/Scripts/run-perf-tests to run PerformanceTests in
DRT based on the work Ilya Tikhonovsky (loislo) has done for
run-inspector-perf-tests.py. The script aims to run performance tests both
locally and on bots similar to the way run-webkit-tests works and runs on
Mac (WebKit1) and Chromium ports. Please try it out and give me a feedback
(you can file a bug with run-perf-tests:  in the summary and cc me).

I didn't merge it into run-webkit-tests because performance tests don't
pass/fail but instead give us some values that fluctuate over time. While
Chromium takes an approach to hard-code the rage of acceptable values, such
an approach has a high maintenance cost and prone to problems such as
having to increase the range periodically as the score slowly degrades over
time. Also, as you can see on Chromium perf
botshttp://build.chromium.org/p/chromium.perf/console,
the test results tend to fluctuate a lot so hard-coding a tight range of
acceptable value is tricky.

Unlike run-webkit-tests, run-perf-tests doesn't generate any HTML or JSON
files to summarize the results by default since only output you get out of
performance tests are time took to run tests or scores, which are already
reported on stdout. The output of run-perf-tests is designed to be
compatible with Chromium perf bots but we can easily change that to
something more human friendly if people are so inclined. The script
optionally generates a JSON file to be used by perf bots.

In order for other ports (e.g. Windows, Qt, GTK, etc...) to support
run-perf-tests, simply their respective DRT needs to support
--no-timeoutoption that disables the watchdog timer. This is necessary
as some
performance tests take a long time to run. Also, we'll appreciate your help
if you could add --timeout option per
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=76662 for the code sanity.

*Adding Performance Bots*
In the next couple of days, I'm going to post a patch to add a Chromium Mac
Perf bot to build.webkit.org (of course, upon appropriate reviews) that
runs run-perf-tests and uploads a JSON file to webkit-perf.appspot.com, a
clone of graphs.mozilla.org.

While we could have adopted Chromium's perf bot output where each slave
generates a JSON file with a html front end that loads the JSON, the
approach didn't scale well for Chromium when the number of historical
values stored on each slave soared and the size of JSON increased
proportionally over time. Furthermore, it's hard to compare values between
different bots or tests. On the other hand, creating a new front end seemed
like a too much work. As such, I've decided to port Mozilla's Graph
Serverhttps://github.com/mozilla/graphsto WebKit after consulting
with tony^work, ojan, and evmar.

While we could have added another dedicated apache server with all nice
features Graph Server's native backend provides, the maintenance cost of
maintaining such a server seemed too high. Also, Robert Helmer (rhelmer), a
Mozilla contributor who is actively working on the Graph Server, told me
that Mozilla is planning to replace the backend with a key-value database.
Given these circumstances and some experimentations, I wrote our own
backend using Google App Engine http://code.google.com/appengine/ for its
low maintenance cost and ease of use; note App Engine is already used by
commit-queue and flakiness dashboard.

My work to port the Graph Server is near completion and I expect it to be
working in the next couple of days just as I add a Chromium Mac Perf bot.
If you're interested in adding new perf bots for your port, please contact
me directly and I'll give you a detailed instruction on what needs to
happen (it's super trivial but involves giving out or receiving a password).

*How to Write Performance Tests*
If you're interested in adding more performance tests (you should be!),
then use