Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
On Saturday 19 January 2013, Benjamin Poulain wrote: On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Levi Weintraub le...@chromium.org wrote: I see that this is intended to go in as a module. My understanding is that concept was created to allow this sort of thing with minimal impact to core functionality. I don't think that is the concern at hand, but rather how healthy is our Web platform. MIDI is uncommon, low level, and that W3C spec does not make useful abstractions. There are already few native apps that use MIDI. I am curious what is pushing for supporting MIDI on the Web. I agree. The problem isn't even that MIDI is uncommon. The question is: Why can't this be done with more generic Web APIs, if they are not good enough, perhaps they should be improved instead of making a new very specific API. It seems from my quick reading that all Web MIDI does is probe for MIDI support and devices, and offer a way to send MIDI messages to them with a high-res timestamp. Surely this could be done using a more generic API. `Allan ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
Thank you everyone for your feedback. We realize that adding a new API is something to be considered very carefully and know that we need to get general WebKit buy-in before proceeding with any development here. It's very true that each new feature has its costs and benefits. I do hope we can have some good discussions about the idea in all its different facets, because it's being taken very seriously in the public-audio working group: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-webmidi-20121025/. The API proposal is still in draft stage, of course. On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Takashi Toyoshima toyos...@chromium.org wrote: Hi webkit-dev, I want to let you know that I plan to add Web MIDI API support to WebKit. This support will be behind the ENABLE_WEB_MIDI feature define. See the master bug for Web MIDI API: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107250 I'll enable this feature in Chromium port once the implementation becomes ready for that. Thanks, ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
On Jan 19, 2013, at 8:56 AM, Takashi Toyoshima toyos...@chromium.org wrote: Thank you everyone for your feedback. We realize that adding a new API is something to be considered very carefully and know that we need to get general WebKit buy-in before proceeding with any development here. It's very true that each new feature has its costs and benefits. I do hope we can have some good discussions about the idea in all its different facets, because it's being taken very seriously in the public-audio working group: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-webmidi-20121025/. The API proposal is still in draft stage, of course I think the answers to my two earlier questions would help us understand the level of buy-in beyond the WebKit community: - Are any other browser engines planning to implement this? (I couldn't tell from looking at the public-au...@w3.org archives). - Is this API useful in any way for users who do not have specialized and somewhat uncommon hardware devices? Regards, Maciej On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Takashi Toyoshima toyos...@chromium.org wrote: Hi webkit-dev, I want to let you know that I plan to add Web MIDI API support to WebKit. This support will be behind the ENABLE_WEB_MIDI feature define. See the master bug for Web MIDI API: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107250 I'll enable this feature in Chromium port once the implementation becomes ready for that. Thanks, ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
On Jan 19, 2013, at 11:20 AM, noam.rosent...@nokia.com wrote: From: ext Maciej Stachowiak m...@apple.com Is this API useful in any way for users who do not have specialized and somewhat uncommon hardware devices? You don't need a particular hardware to play MIDI; only a sound card. OK, but - sending low-level MIDI commands in binary form is extremely unlikely to be the most effective way to get music out of your sound card. While in the past, games or audio software may have used MIDI rendered by an internal soundcard, my understanding is that nowadways this is almost never done. MIDI is mainly used for truly external outputs and inputs. The spec describes its own purpose like this: The Web MIDI API is intended to enable direct access to devices that respond to MIDI - external synthesizers or lighting systems, for example, or even the software synthesizers that are built in to many common operating systems. The Web MIDI API is also explicitly designed to enable a new class of applications on the web that can respond to MIDI controller inputs - using external hardware controllers with physical buttons, knobs and sliders (as well as musical controllers like keyboard, guitar or wind instrument controllers) to control web applications. On the face of it, this sounds like a non-mainstream use case. Regards, Maciej ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
(Resending to list, having some email issues…) From: ext Maciej Stachowiak m...@apple.commailto:m...@apple.com OK, but - sending low-level MIDI commands in binary form is extremely unlikely to be the most effective way to get music out of your sound card. While in the past, games or audio software may have used MIDI rendered by an internal soundcard, my understanding is that nowadways this is almost never done. MIDI is mainly used for truly external outputs and inputs. I believe you're referring to the general MIDI built-in synthesizer common in sound cards, which is of course there but not what I'm referring to :) You can use MIDI to control pure-software synthesizers that are connected via CoreMIDI (or other OS-specific interfaces), or to control specialized pure-software programs like Logic or Cubase. I would say that using MIDI in a mainstream way requires either specialized hardware or specialized software, though it could potentially be used completely with WebAudio to create something like a software synthesizer. Still I would have to agree that this is an obscure API, and in general I would prefer to maybe find a common place outside of the webkit project to implement random navigator.foobar APIs and have them work on top of some WebKit public APIs. ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
[webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
Hi webkit-dev, I want to let you know that I plan to add Web MIDI API support to WebKit. This support will be behind the ENABLE_WEB_MIDI feature define. See the master bug for Web MIDI API: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107250 I'll enable this feature in Chromium port once the implementation becomes ready for that. Thanks, ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
(re-sending from webkit.org address) 18.01.2013, в 2:51, Takashi Toyoshima toyos...@chromium.org написал(а): Hi webkit-dev, I want to let you know that I plan to add Web MIDI API support to WebKit. This support will be behind the ENABLE_WEB_MIDI feature define. See the master bug for Web MIDI API: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107250 I'll enable this feature in Chromium port once the implementation becomes ready for that. I object. I don't want WebCore to get larger and larger as support for every conceivable device is added. WebCore is hopefully not an operating system that has to provide APIs for every peripheral a computer has. Or if it is now, then it needs to be structured a very different way - implementing APIs for everything from MIDI to OpenGL to HTTP to encryption in a monolithic project just doesn't make sense. - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
Some questions: - Are any other browser engines planning to implement this? (I couldn't tell from looking at the public-au...@w3.org archives). - Is this API useful in any way for users who do not have specialized and somewhat uncommon hardware devices? Regards, Maciej On Jan 18, 2013, at 2:51 AM, Takashi Toyoshima toyos...@chromium.org wrote: Hi webkit-dev, I want to let you know that I plan to add Web MIDI API support to WebKit. This support will be behind the ENABLE_WEB_MIDI feature define. See the master bug for Web MIDI API: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107250 I'll enable this feature in Chromium port once the implementation becomes ready for that. Thanks, ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
Implement as a dynamic/shared library plugin then whoever wants it gets it there's minimal bloat for those who don't. On 18/01/2013 19:51, Maciej Stachowiak wrote: Some questions: - Are any other browser engines planning to implement this? (I couldn't tell from looking at the public-au...@w3.org archives). - Is this API useful in any way for users who do not have specialized and somewhat uncommon hardware devices? Regards, Maciej On Jan 18, 2013, at 2:51 AM, Takashi Toyoshima toyos...@chromium.org wrote: Hi webkit-dev, I want to let you know that I plan to add Web MIDI API support to WebKit. This support will be behind the ENABLE_WEB_MIDI feature define. See the master bug for Web MIDI API: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107250 I'll enable this feature in Chromium port once the implementation becomes ready for that. Thanks, ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
I see that this is intended to go in as a module. My understanding is that concept was created to allow this sort of thing with minimal impact to core functionality. On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Steve Williams stephen.j.h.willi...@googlemail.com wrote: Implement as a dynamic/shared library plugin then whoever wants it gets it there's minimal bloat for those who don't. On 18/01/2013 19:51, Maciej Stachowiak wrote: Some questions: - Are any other browser engines planning to implement this? (I couldn't tell from looking at the public-au...@w3.org archives). - Is this API useful in any way for users who do not have specialized and somewhat uncommon hardware devices? Regards, Maciej On Jan 18, 2013, at 2:51 AM, Takashi Toyoshima toyos...@chromium.org wrote: Hi webkit-dev, I want to let you know that I plan to add Web MIDI API support to WebKit. This support will be behind the ENABLE_WEB_MIDI feature define. See the master bug for Web MIDI API: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_**bug.cgi?id=107250https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107250 I'll enable this feature in Chromium port once the implementation becomes ready for that. Thanks, __**_ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/**mailman/listinfo/webkit-devhttp://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev __**_ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/**mailman/listinfo/webkit-devhttp://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev __**_ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/**mailman/listinfo/webkit-devhttp://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Levi Weintraub le...@chromium.org wrote: I see that this is intended to go in as a module. My understanding is that concept was created to allow this sort of thing with minimal impact to core functionality. I don't think that is the concern at hand, but rather how healthy is our Web platform. MIDI is uncommon, low level, and that W3C spec does not make useful abstractions. There are already few native apps that use MIDI. I am curious what is pushing for supporting MIDI on the Web. Benjamin ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
(re-sending from webkit.org address) 18.01.2013, в 15:04, Levi Weintraub le...@chromium.org написал(а): I see that this is intended to go in as a module. My understanding is that concept was created to allow this sort of thing with minimal impact to core functionality. Modules certainly help, but they don't solve all issues of scale. There are still costs that are paid even for code that's compiled out. Some of the costs apply to core system (such as longer checkout times, inability to perform certain kinds of ongoing audits due to amount of change, inability to technically enforce access rules for committing and reviewing code, having to spend resources on monitoring for breakage in subsystems after every commit). Others apply to subsystems (that could have a different commit/review policy, could have different coding style that better suits their developers, or otherwise avoid constraints of tight coupling to core code). I'm not advocating for splitting WebCore into multiple independent projects, but I'm advocating for not approaching the line where doing that would be the only way to continue shipping stable products, and to make progress on functionality that improves basic web browsing experience. I think that the benefits of MIDI API in JavaScript are fairly minor - only a few people have the hardware to use it, and those who do have the hardware won't necessarily live happier lives if their native apps get augmented/replaced with web apps. So, this could be a good feature not not add. - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Adding Web MIDI API support to WebCore
I think even given the module approach, we only want features that have cross-vendor support and/or a broad and compelling use case. I don't see evidence that this feature has either of those things, though I may be missing key information, which is why I asked my questions. I think a WebKit-only feature with only very narrow or niche interest would not be in line with WebKit project goals. Regards, Maciej On Jan 18, 2013, at 3:04 PM, Levi Weintraub le...@chromium.org wrote: I see that this is intended to go in as a module. My understanding is that concept was created to allow this sort of thing with minimal impact to core functionality. On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Steve Williams stephen.j.h.willi...@googlemail.com wrote: Implement as a dynamic/shared library plugin then whoever wants it gets it there's minimal bloat for those who don't. On 18/01/2013 19:51, Maciej Stachowiak wrote: Some questions: - Are any other browser engines planning to implement this? (I couldn't tell from looking at the public-au...@w3.org archives). - Is this API useful in any way for users who do not have specialized and somewhat uncommon hardware devices? Regards, Maciej On Jan 18, 2013, at 2:51 AM, Takashi Toyoshima toyos...@chromium.org wrote: Hi webkit-dev, I want to let you know that I plan to add Web MIDI API support to WebKit. This support will be behind the ENABLE_WEB_MIDI feature define. See the master bug for Web MIDI API: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107250 I'll enable this feature in Chromium port once the implementation becomes ready for that. Thanks, ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
