Re: [webkit-dev] Gamepad API [Was: New feature flag proposal: Joystick API]
13.10.2011, в 7:15, Scott Graham написал(а): Personally, I see Gamepad as a representative name rather than necessarily all encompassing. Analogously we use Mouse in other specs. Many people use trackballs, trackpads, joystick-like devices, etc. to control some indexed buttons with a 2d location + scrolling indications. This is because there's no particularly better word for that input concept than mouse. I believe this is the case for gamepad too. The need to emulate mouse is forced by web compatibility. It's hardly a success story for coherent API design - beyond lowest common denominator functionality, you have to use completely separate APIs for touch, for example. Besides, it's surprising to me that gamepad can be seen as a representative name for wheels or 3d mice. - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
[webkit-dev] Gamepad API [Was: New feature flag proposal: Joystick API]
Hi all, Alexey appears to strongly dislike the name of this API specification ( http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/default/gamepad.html), so much so that he is blocking development of the API behind a flag. As a reminder, this API is being developed through the WebEvents WG jointly with other browser vendors, including Mozilla. Folks working on this appear to be content with the Gamepad name, precisely because the spec is limited to dealing with input devices that are represented in terms of buttons and axes. Gamepad seems like a fairly canonical name for such a device, even though devices by other names can be represented by similar data. Does anyone else feel strongly enough that the name of the API is so bad that it should therefore not be allowed onto WebKit trunk behind a flag? Personally, I feel like the name is quite malleable at this point in time, and I really like coming up with the best possible name for things. However, I don't see why we need to have the perfect name before we continue development of this feature behind a flag. As we were developing Blob and File support, we made several name changes along the way. It is not always so obvious how to name things from the start. See this bug for reference: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69451 Thoughts? -Darin On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Alexey Proskuryakov a...@webkit.org wrote: 06.10.2011, в 13:49, Scott Graham написал(а): The first revision of the spec (from the Scope section) is intended to handle: ... support for devices common to current gaming systems including gamepads, directional pads, joysticks, wheels, pedals, accelerometers. Why does the spec title and abstract talk about gamepads (joysticks) only? Perhaps it's my mistake that I didn't read the scope section, but with title and abstract being so specific, that seemed unnecessary. Skipping scope section, I went right to IDL. Why is the interface called Gamepad if it's not only about gamepads? - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Gamepad API [Was: New feature flag proposal: Joystick API]
I don't think it's worth blocking development of the feature based solely on the name. I'd recommend sorting out the name issue before enabling the feature by default though, because that's the point in time after which changing the name will become painful. If the name is really a sticking point, you can always give the API a ridiculous name to force yourself to change it later. Adam On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Darin Fisher da...@chromium.org wrote: Hi all, Alexey appears to strongly dislike the name of this API specification (http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/default/gamepad.html), so much so that he is blocking development of the API behind a flag. As a reminder, this API is being developed through the WebEvents WG jointly with other browser vendors, including Mozilla. Folks working on this appear to be content with the Gamepad name, precisely because the spec is limited to dealing with input devices that are represented in terms of buttons and axes. Gamepad seems like a fairly canonical name for such a device, even though devices by other names can be represented by similar data. Does anyone else feel strongly enough that the name of the API is so bad that it should therefore not be allowed onto WebKit trunk behind a flag? Personally, I feel like the name is quite malleable at this point in time, and I really like coming up with the best possible name for things. However, I don't see why we need to have the perfect name before we continue development of this feature behind a flag. As we were developing Blob and File support, we made several name changes along the way. It is not always so obvious how to name things from the start. See this bug for reference: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69451 Thoughts? -Darin On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Alexey Proskuryakov a...@webkit.org wrote: 06.10.2011, в 13:49, Scott Graham написал(а): The first revision of the spec (from the Scope section) is intended to handle: ... support for devices common to current gaming systems including gamepads, directional pads, joysticks, wheels, pedals, accelerometers. Why does the spec title and abstract talk about gamepads (joysticks) only? Perhaps it's my mistake that I didn't read the scope section, but with title and abstract being so specific, that seemed unnecessary. Skipping scope section, I went right to IDL. Why is the interface called Gamepad if it's not only about gamepads? - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Gamepad API [Was: New feature flag proposal: Joystick API]
Its obvious that a naming nit is a not a good reason to block development behind a flag. Is the the true basis for that r- expressed in this comment? The concern here as I understand it is that providing low level access to every possible controller creates fragmentation, with purportedly HTML content that only works on a few devices. There is no clear cut border here - it's been mentioned that even touch events can be seen as rare - and then I advocate that adding more mouse specific events is a bad idea for the same reason. But that concern also shouldn't block initial development behind a flag. Seems like that concern should be brought up with the WG. On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Darin Fisher da...@chromium.org wrote: Hi all, Alexey appears to strongly dislike the name of this API specification ( http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/default/gamepad.html), so much so that he is blocking development of the API behind a flag. As a reminder, this API is being developed through the WebEvents WG jointly with other browser vendors, including Mozilla. Folks working on this appear to be content with the Gamepad name, precisely because the spec is limited to dealing with input devices that are represented in terms of buttons and axes. Gamepad seems like a fairly canonical name for such a device, even though devices by other names can be represented by similar data. Does anyone else feel strongly enough that the name of the API is so bad that it should therefore not be allowed onto WebKit trunk behind a flag? Personally, I feel like the name is quite malleable at this point in time, and I really like coming up with the best possible name for things. However, I don't see why we need to have the perfect name before we continue development of this feature behind a flag. As we were developing Blob and File support, we made several name changes along the way. It is not always so obvious how to name things from the start. See this bug for reference: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69451 Thoughts? -Darin On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Alexey Proskuryakov a...@webkit.org wrote: 06.10.2011, в 13:49, Scott Graham написал(а): The first revision of the spec (from the Scope section) is intended to handle: ... support for devices common to current gaming systems including gamepads, directional pads, joysticks, wheels, pedals, accelerometers. Why does the spec title and abstract talk about gamepads (joysticks) only? Perhaps it's my mistake that I didn't read the scope section, but with title and abstract being so specific, that seemed unnecessary. Skipping scope section, I went right to IDL. Why is the interface called Gamepad if it's not only about gamepads? - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Gamepad API [Was: New feature flag proposal: Joystick API]
12.10.2011, в 14:10, Adam Barth написал(а): I don't think it's worth blocking development of the feature based solely on the name. Quoting what I actually said in the bug, I don't think that we should accept an implementation of a spec that's so immature that it doesn't even have a meaningful name. The issues that I see are: - Immaturity that's manifesting itself even in the name. You can't really ask someone to meaningfully review a spec when its scope is so unclear. - Spec development process that ignores feedback. Multiple people who want this feature (including one of spec editors) were aware of feedback but didn't act on it. We had consensus on webkit-dev that the name was bad, yet a patch was again posted for review in Bugzilla. I'd recommend sorting out the name issue before enabling the feature by default though, because that's the point in time after which changing the name will become painful. If the name is really a sticking point, you can always give the API a ridiculous name to force yourself to change it later. :) - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Gamepad API [Was: New feature flag proposal: Joystick API]
On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Alexey Proskuryakov a...@webkit.org wrote: Quoting what I actually said in the bug, I don't think that we should accept an implementation of a spec that's so immature that it doesn't even have a meaningful name. That the name is not meaningful, and that this is a sign of too great of spec immaturity, are both judgment calls. I don't happen to agree with your judgment in either case (not that my own judgment is objectively better). There's been a noteworthy lack of good alternative ideas for the name (joystick has similar issues to gamepad, whereas input device or similar are clearly far too broad for what the spec covers; in the end I agree with Darin that the name is fine overall), and in that context I'm not sure the name is evidence for spec immaturity. We had consensus on webkit-dev that the name was bad, yet a patch was again posted for review in Bugzilla. Consensus seems somewhat strong. Looking over the emails sent, you expressed some concern, but there was not a ton of discussion beyond that. I read the tone of the thread as generally OK with things. (If that hadn't been the case I would have sent this email earlier.) As Adam notes, we should be confident of the name before we turn it on by default, but I don't think that should block development, and I also think it would behoove people unhappy with the name to offer some clearly-superior proposals. PK ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Gamepad API [Was: New feature flag proposal: Joystick API]
2011/10/12 Alexey Proskuryakov a...@webkit.org: The issues that I see are: - Immaturity that's manifesting itself even in the name. You can't really ask someone to meaningfully review a spec when its scope is so unclear. What about the scope is unclear? I feel that the Scope section of the spec and the draft charter outlines what we hope to address. - Spec development process that ignores feedback. Multiple people who want this feature (including one of spec editors) were aware of feedback but didn't act on it. We had consensus on webkit-dev that the name was bad I was indeed aware of your feedback (that you felt the name was unclear, as far as I understood it), but after discussing during a WG meeting, we haven't thought of a better name. If you have any suggestions, I'm sure all would be open to an improved name. I apologize for not publicly acknowledging that we have not yet addressed the issue you've raised. I have opened an issue on your behalf: http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/24 Again, the goal is to attempt to gather feedback from developers at this stage, with work done behind a flag so as to reduce any possible negative impact on WebKit. The hope is that we will learn more. Perhaps we'll come up with a better name too! ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
Re: [webkit-dev] Gamepad API [Was: New feature flag proposal: Joystick API]
12.10.2011, в 16:43, Scott Graham написал(а): - Spec development process that ignores feedback. Multiple people who want this feature (including one of spec editors) were aware of feedback but didn't act on it. We had consensus on webkit-dev that the name was bad I was indeed aware of your feedback (that you felt the name was unclear, as far as I understood it), but after discussing during a WG meeting, we haven't thought of a better name. If you have any suggestions, I'm sure all would be open to an improved name. One way to come up with a good name for something already in existence is to look how other people call it. For example, a Wikipedia article on USB HID devices puts everything this spec cares about into game controllers section. How about GameController? You could look at other classifications of input devices. Maybe USB HID spec itself has a good classification? - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov ___ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
