Re: [webkit-dev] Removing obsolete File attributes

[Darin Fisher]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Jochen Eisinger wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Eric Seidel  wrote:
>
>> My 2¢:
>>
>> - I'm glad to see these properties go.
>> - I think Darin is correct to be concerned about a potential
>> web-compat risk.  (But, I suspect grepping extensions for ".fileSize"
>> and ".fileName" might actually turn up useful data.  Assuming that's
>> easy to do?)
>> - I agree with ap that warnings are mostly useless.  Firefox has a
>> zillion such warnings, and most page authors seem to ignore them.
>>
>
> Is it really useless, or does it help to decrease the number of new pages
> using the feature? At the very least, it would make it seem more fair if
> the feature is eventually removed to give some warning.
>

Exactly!  For a point of reference, the bug to remove these properties
caught the attention of a developer at Google just yesterday.  He was
really worried that we were taking away the ability to get the "name" and
"size" from a File.  He just wasn't aware of the fact that the same data
was still available, but just under a different name on the Blob interface.
 He was writing new code.  I'm certain a warning in the console would have
been helpful in this case.



>
>> - I agree with Jian Li, that if/when we add warnings (or any other
>> form of deprecation) notating such in the IDL and autogenerating is a
>> Good Idea™.
>>
>
> I agree that this would be useful.
>
>
Great idea!

-Darin



> -jochen
>
>
>>
>> How much work is it to collect "how many unique pages grab these"
>> numbers from nightlies?  Have we done such in the past? (Do we have
>> other studies to compare against?)  It feels a bit odd for WebKit to
>> depend on Chromium to collect such numbers, but Chromium does seem
>> well suited to the task.
>>
>> -eric
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Alexey Proskuryakov 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > 24.02.2012, в 12:20, Darin Fisher написал(а):
>> >
>> > Perhaps a concrete good first step is to log a console warning when
>> they are
>> > used?  "Warning, blahBlah is a deprecated attribute.  Use fluxCapacitor
>> > instead."
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm not much in favor of such warnings - from all I heard (second or
>> third
>> > hand, without hard data), they are not effective. FWIW, this is what I'd
>> > expect - developers don't check console logs for sites they've
>> delivered and
>> > were paid for long ago.
>> >
>> > I should point out that replacement standard attributes have been
>> > implemented in WebKit for a long time.
>> >
>> > - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
>> > http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
>> >
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Re: [webkit-dev] Removing obsolete File attributes

[Jochen Eisinger]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Eric Seidel  wrote:

> My 2¢:
>
> - I'm glad to see these properties go.
> - I think Darin is correct to be concerned about a potential
> web-compat risk.  (But, I suspect grepping extensions for ".fileSize"
> and ".fileName" might actually turn up useful data.  Assuming that's
> easy to do?)
> - I agree with ap that warnings are mostly useless.  Firefox has a
> zillion such warnings, and most page authors seem to ignore them.
>

Is it really useless, or does it help to decrease the number of new pages
using the feature? At the very least, it would make it seem more fair if
the feature is eventually removed to give some warning.


> - I agree with Jian Li, that if/when we add warnings (or any other
> form of deprecation) notating such in the IDL and autogenerating is a
> Good Idea™.
>

I agree that this would be useful.

-jochen


>
> How much work is it to collect "how many unique pages grab these"
> numbers from nightlies?  Have we done such in the past? (Do we have
> other studies to compare against?)  It feels a bit odd for WebKit to
> depend on Chromium to collect such numbers, but Chromium does seem
> well suited to the task.
>
> -eric
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Alexey Proskuryakov 
> wrote:
> >
> > 24.02.2012, в 12:20, Darin Fisher написал(а):
> >
> > Perhaps a concrete good first step is to log a console warning when they
> are
> > used?  "Warning, blahBlah is a deprecated attribute.  Use fluxCapacitor
> > instead."
> >
> >
> > I'm not much in favor of such warnings - from all I heard (second or
> third
> > hand, without hard data), they are not effective. FWIW, this is what I'd
> > expect - developers don't check console logs for sites they've delivered
> and
> > were paid for long ago.
> >
> > I should point out that replacement standard attributes have been
> > implemented in WebKit for a long time.
> >
> > - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov
> >
> >
> > ___
> > webkit-dev mailing list
> > webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org
> > http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
> >
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Re: [webkit-dev] Removing obsolete File attributes

[Eric Seidel]

My 2¢:

- I'm glad to see these properties go.
- I think Darin is correct to be concerned about a potential
web-compat risk.  (But, I suspect grepping extensions for ".fileSize"
and ".fileName" might actually turn up useful data.  Assuming that's
easy to do?)
- I agree with ap that warnings are mostly useless.  Firefox has a
zillion such warnings, and most page authors seem to ignore them.
- I agree with Jian Li, that if/when we add warnings (or any other
form of deprecation) notating such in the IDL and autogenerating is a
Good Idea™.

How much work is it to collect "how many unique pages grab these"
numbers from nightlies?  Have we done such in the past? (Do we have
other studies to compare against?)  It feels a bit odd for WebKit to
depend on Chromium to collect such numbers, but Chromium does seem
well suited to the task.

-eric

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Alexey Proskuryakov  wrote:
>
> 24.02.2012, в 12:20, Darin Fisher написал(а):
>
> Perhaps a concrete good first step is to log a console warning when they are
> used?  "Warning, blahBlah is a deprecated attribute.  Use fluxCapacitor
> instead."
>
>
> I'm not much in favor of such warnings - from all I heard (second or third
> hand, without hard data), they are not effective. FWIW, this is what I'd
> expect - developers don't check console logs for sites they've delivered and
> were paid for long ago.
>
> I should point out that replacement standard attributes have been
> implemented in WebKit for a long time.
>
> - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov
>
>
> ___
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> http://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/webkit-dev
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Re: [webkit-dev] Removing obsolete File attributes

[Alexey Proskuryakov]

24.02.2012, в 12:20, Darin Fisher написал(а):

> Perhaps a concrete good first step is to log a console warning when they are 
> used?  "Warning, blahBlah is a deprecated attribute.  Use fluxCapacitor 
> instead."

I'm not much in favor of such warnings - from all I heard (second or third 
hand, without hard data), they are not effective. FWIW, this is what I'd expect 
- developers don't check console logs for sites they've delivered and were paid 
for long ago.

I should point out that replacement standard attributes have been implemented 
in WebKit for a long time.

- WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov

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Re: [webkit-dev] Removing obsolete File attributes

[Jian Li]

Can we introduce some sort of "Obsolete" IDL attribute so that it will
automatically produce console warning messages for those attributes and
could even trigger metric gathering for those platforms that have interest?
It seems that this addition could be useful in deprecating some other
attributes in the future.

Jian


On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Darin Fisher  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Maciej Stachowiak  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Darin Fisher wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Maciej Stachowiak wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Darin Fisher wrote:
>>>
>>> As I mentioned in the bug, it is encouraging news that Mozilla has
>>> already removed these attributes (for a couple releases now).  I would like
>>> to see them go away too.
>>>
>>> There's unfortunately, the real possibility that there may be some
>>> existing webkit-specific or chrome-specific (extensions) content out there
>>> that is expecting these properties to exist.  I think we need to be a bit
>>> cautious since we've included these properties in webkit for such a long
>>> time (since 2008!).  Here's the revision that added them:
>>> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/34702
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there a good way to quantify and/or mitigate this risk?
>>>
>>
>> Well, we could certainly instrument a Chrome nightly build to measure
>> accesses made on these attributes, and see what that turns up.  I haven't
>> thought about it enough to decide what a good metric would be.  You
>> probably want to know the percentage of unique pages that depend on these
>> features.  It is probably easier to measure percentage of navigations that
>> resulted in a document that depended on these features.  That would
>> over-estimate usage if a page that needs these features is navigated to
>> frequently.
>>
>> I'm concerned that it may be tricky to grep the repository of Chrome
>> extensions (or Google's index of the web) since "fileName" and "fileSize"
>> are likely to be very common terms.
>>
>>
>> Though you did not say so explicitly, it sounded to me like your
>> suggested approach to this issue was "let's remove these eventually, but
>> maybe not right now". That sounds like a reasonable approach.
>>
>> But then we'll need to figure out if it's actually too costly to remove
>> them right now, and if so, figure out how to get to the point that we feel
>> comfortable removing them. I don't really have a specific kind of idea of
>> what data would tell us these things.  Your suggestions above seem ok.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Maciej
>>
>>
>>
>
> Perhaps a concrete good first step is to log a console warning when they
> are used?  "Warning, blahBlah is a deprecated attribute.  Use fluxCapacitor
> instead."
>
> -Darin
>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Removing obsolete File attributes

[Darin Fisher]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Maciej Stachowiak  wrote:

>
> On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Darin Fisher wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Maciej Stachowiak  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Darin Fisher wrote:
>>
>> As I mentioned in the bug, it is encouraging news that Mozilla has
>> already removed these attributes (for a couple releases now).  I would like
>> to see them go away too.
>>
>> There's unfortunately, the real possibility that there may be some
>> existing webkit-specific or chrome-specific (extensions) content out there
>> that is expecting these properties to exist.  I think we need to be a bit
>> cautious since we've included these properties in webkit for such a long
>> time (since 2008!).  Here's the revision that added them:
>> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/34702
>>
>>
>> Is there a good way to quantify and/or mitigate this risk?
>>
>
> Well, we could certainly instrument a Chrome nightly build to measure
> accesses made on these attributes, and see what that turns up.  I haven't
> thought about it enough to decide what a good metric would be.  You
> probably want to know the percentage of unique pages that depend on these
> features.  It is probably easier to measure percentage of navigations that
> resulted in a document that depended on these features.  That would
> over-estimate usage if a page that needs these features is navigated to
> frequently.
>
> I'm concerned that it may be tricky to grep the repository of Chrome
> extensions (or Google's index of the web) since "fileName" and "fileSize"
> are likely to be very common terms.
>
>
> Though you did not say so explicitly, it sounded to me like your suggested
> approach to this issue was "let's remove these eventually, but maybe not
> right now". That sounds like a reasonable approach.
>
> But then we'll need to figure out if it's actually too costly to remove
> them right now, and if so, figure out how to get to the point that we feel
> comfortable removing them. I don't really have a specific kind of idea of
> what data would tell us these things.  Your suggestions above seem ok.
>
> Regards,
> Maciej
>
>
>

Perhaps a concrete good first step is to log a console warning when they
are used?  "Warning, blahBlah is a deprecated attribute.  Use fluxCapacitor
instead."

-Darin
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Re: [webkit-dev] Removing obsolete File attributes

[Maciej Stachowiak]

On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Darin Fisher wrote:

> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Maciej Stachowiak  wrote:
> 
> On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Darin Fisher wrote:
> 
>> As I mentioned in the bug, it is encouraging news that Mozilla has already 
>> removed these attributes (for a couple releases now).  I would like to see 
>> them go away too.
>> 
>> There's unfortunately, the real possibility that there may be some existing 
>> webkit-specific or chrome-specific (extensions) content out there that is 
>> expecting these properties to exist.  I think we need to be a bit cautious 
>> since we've included these properties in webkit for such a long time (since 
>> 2008!).  Here's the revision that added them: 
>> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/34702
> 
> Is there a good way to quantify and/or mitigate this risk?
> 
> Well, we could certainly instrument a Chrome nightly build to measure 
> accesses made on these attributes, and see what that turns up.  I haven't 
> thought about it enough to decide what a good metric would be.  You probably 
> want to know the percentage of unique pages that depend on these features.  
> It is probably easier to measure percentage of navigations that resulted in a 
> document that depended on these features.  That would over-estimate usage if 
> a page that needs these features is navigated to frequently.
> 
> I'm concerned that it may be tricky to grep the repository of Chrome 
> extensions (or Google's index of the web) since "fileName" and "fileSize" are 
> likely to be very common terms.

Though you did not say so explicitly, it sounded to me like your suggested 
approach to this issue was "let's remove these eventually, but maybe not right 
now". That sounds like a reasonable approach.

But then we'll need to figure out if it's actually too costly to remove them 
right now, and if so, figure out how to get to the point that we feel 
comfortable removing them. I don't really have a specific kind of idea of what 
data would tell us these things.  Your suggestions above seem ok.

Regards,
Maciej


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Re: [webkit-dev] Removing obsolete File attributes

[Darin Fisher]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Maciej Stachowiak  wrote:

>
> On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Darin Fisher wrote:
>
> As I mentioned in the bug, it is encouraging news that Mozilla has already
> removed these attributes (for a couple releases now).  I would like to see
> them go away too.
>
> There's unfortunately, the real possibility that there may be some
> existing webkit-specific or chrome-specific (extensions) content out there
> that is expecting these properties to exist.  I think we need to be a bit
> cautious since we've included these properties in webkit for such a long
> time (since 2008!).  Here's the revision that added them:
> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/34702
>
>
> Is there a good way to quantify and/or mitigate this risk?
>

Well, we could certainly instrument a Chrome nightly build to measure
accesses made on these attributes, and see what that turns up.  I haven't
thought about it enough to decide what a good metric would be.  You
probably want to know the percentage of unique pages that depend on these
features.  It is probably easier to measure percentage of navigations that
resulted in a document that depended on these features.  That would
over-estimate usage if a page that needs these features is navigated to
frequently.

I'm concerned that it may be tricky to grep the repository of Chrome
extensions (or Google's index of the web) since "fileName" and "fileSize"
are likely to be very common terms.

-Darin



>
> Regards,
> Maciej
>
>
> -Darin
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Alexey Proskuryakov wrote:
>
>>
>> I'd like to remove old File object properties that are superseded in
>> current spec versions, and have been already removed from Firefox: <
>> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79383>.
>>
>> Would any ports want to keep these under a feature flag, or to have some
>> time to investigate possible consequences of the removal for port specific
>> content?
>>
>> - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov
>>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Removing obsolete File attributes

[Maciej Stachowiak]

On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Darin Fisher wrote:

> As I mentioned in the bug, it is encouraging news that Mozilla has already 
> removed these attributes (for a couple releases now).  I would like to see 
> them go away too.
> 
> There's unfortunately, the real possibility that there may be some existing 
> webkit-specific or chrome-specific (extensions) content out there that is 
> expecting these properties to exist.  I think we need to be a bit cautious 
> since we've included these properties in webkit for such a long time (since 
> 2008!).  Here's the revision that added them: 
> http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/34702

Is there a good way to quantify and/or mitigate this risk?

Regards,
Maciej

> 
> -Darin
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Alexey Proskuryakov  wrote:
> 
> I'd like to remove old File object properties that are superseded in current 
> spec versions, and have been already removed from Firefox: 
> .
> 
> Would any ports want to keep these under a feature flag, or to have some time 
> to investigate possible consequences of the removal for port specific content?
> 
> - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov
> 
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Re: [webkit-dev] Removing obsolete File attributes

[Darin Fisher]

As I mentioned in the bug, it is encouraging news that Mozilla has already
removed these attributes (for a couple releases now).  I would like to see
them go away too.

There's unfortunately, the real possibility that there may be some existing
webkit-specific or chrome-specific (extensions) content out there that is
expecting these properties to exist.  I think we need to be a bit cautious
since we've included these properties in webkit for such a long time (since
2008!).  Here's the revision that added them:
http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/34702

-Darin



On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Alexey Proskuryakov  wrote:

>
> I'd like to remove old File object properties that are superseded in
> current spec versions, and have been already removed from Firefox: <
> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79383>.
>
> Would any ports want to keep these under a feature flag, or to have some
> time to investigate possible consequences of the removal for port specific
> content?
>
> - WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov
>
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[webkit-dev] Removing obsolete File attributes

[Alexey Proskuryakov]

I'd like to remove old File object properties that are superseded in current 
spec versions, and have been already removed from Firefox: 
.

Would any ports want to keep these under a feature flag, or to have some time 
to investigate possible consequences of the removal for port specific content?

- WBR, Alexey Proskuryakov

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