Sessions DirectAction Apache Rewrite und Cookies
Hi, I have a application which has sessions, but defaults to direct Actions. As a Apache rewrite of the URLs strips the wosid from the Direct Adtion URLS, the session is lost with every click on a hyperlink. I tried to have the sessions stored in cookies in place of in the URL. But the session loss still takes place. This is what I did in session.java: setStoresIDsInURLs(false); setStoresIDsInCookies(true); The URL in Cookies seemed to work for wo-links but not for the directAction links. Question: a) Does someone know whether Apache rewrite strips the URL by rewriting from cookies as well? b) Does Session in Cookies work in connection with direct Action and the call to existing Session in the directAction? c) Did I miss something when changing between Session in URL and Cookies, do I need more than the above (Change session Store to cookies in Session) to get this working with DirectActions? Thanks for your help. The App is running wonder (the version from 2007, wo 5.5). Regards, Ute ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Sessions DirectAction Apache Rewrite und Cookies
Check your rewrite rule and use [L, PT, QSA] where L - Last, PT - Pass Through, QSA - Query String Append. Hope this may help. Farrukh On 2010-11-16, at 2:13 PM, ute Hoffmann wrote: Hi, I have a application which has sessions, but defaults to direct Actions. As a Apache rewrite of the URLs strips the wosid from the Direct Adtion URLS, the session is lost with every click on a hyperlink. I tried to have the sessions stored in cookies in place of in the URL. But the session loss still takes place. This is what I did in session.java: setStoresIDsInURLs(false); setStoresIDsInCookies(true); The URL in Cookies seemed to work for wo-links but not for the directAction links. Question: a) Does someone know whether Apache rewrite strips the URL by rewriting from cookies as well? b) Does Session in Cookies work in connection with direct Action and the call to existing Session in the directAction? c) Did I miss something when changing between Session in URL and Cookies, do I need more than the above (Change session Store to cookies in Session) to get this working with DirectActions? Thanks for your help. The App is running wonder (the version from 2007, wo 5.5). Regards, Ute ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/farrukh.ijaz%40fuegodigitalmedia.com This email sent to farrukh.i...@fuegodigitalmedia.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Sessions DirectAction Apache Rewrite und Cookies
Hi, thanks a lot, that looks very good!! Regards, Ute Am 16.11.2010 um 12:19 schrieb Farrukh Ijaz: Check your rewrite rule and use [L, PT, QSA] where L - Last, PT - Pass Through, QSA - Query String Append. Hope this may help. Farrukh On 2010-11-16, at 2:13 PM, ute Hoffmann wrote: Hi, I have a application which has sessions, but defaults to direct Actions. As a Apache rewrite of the URLs strips the wosid from the Direct Adtion URLS, the session is lost with every click on a hyperlink. I tried to have the sessions stored in cookies in place of in the URL. But the session loss still takes place. This is what I did in session.java: setStoresIDsInURLs(false); setStoresIDsInCookies(true); The URL in Cookies seemed to work for wo-links but not for the directAction links. Question: a) Does someone know whether Apache rewrite strips the URL by rewriting from cookies as well? b) Does Session in Cookies work in connection with direct Action and the call to existing Session in the directAction? c) Did I miss something when changing between Session in URL and Cookies, do I need more than the above (Change session Store to cookies in Session) to get this working with DirectActions? Thanks for your help. The App is running wonder (the version from 2007, wo 5.5). Regards, Ute ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/farrukh.ijaz% 40fuegodigitalmedia.com This email sent to farrukh.i...@fuegodigitalmedia.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Application monitoring
This actually brings me to a question I've been wonder-ing about Do I need to use WOInstaller.jar to install the base frameworks or do I just need a script to create the directory structure and embed all the frameworks into my apps? If so, which directories need to be created? Also... Do wotaskd and JavaMonitor from Apple have the frameworks embedded or must I use the Wonder versions? Thanks. -Mike On Nov 15, 2010, at 1:47 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 2010-11-15 à 13:39, Valerio Luccio a écrit : Pascal Robert wrote: Yes, the SiteConfig.xml is the same. Usually, I put the Wonder versions in /Library/WebObjects/JavaApplications (or /opt/Local/Library/WebObjects/JavaApplications if it's on Linux) and I change the startup scripts for wotaskd and JavaMonitor to use the Wonder versions. We are running the Wonder versions for months without any problems. Pascal, a couple of questions about this. I wanted to replace the JavaMonitor and wotaskd on my OS X Server with the project Wonder version to take advantage of the added features (mainly command line interaction). • Is there a bundle with just these two programs or do I have to download and run the whole WOInstaller.jar from mdimension, and if I do will it interfere with the Apple installed WebObjects ? • Where will the project wonder look for the SiteConfig.xml file ? The Apple version is in /Library/WebObjects/Configuration (on my box, anyway). No need to install WO. You can get a download of wotaskd and JavaMonitor from Hudson that have the required frameworks in it. http://webobjects.mdimension.com/hudson/job/Wonder54/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/dist/wotaskd.woa.tar.gz http://webobjects.mdimension.com/hudson/job/Wonder54/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/dist/JavaMonitor.woa.tar.gz About SiteConfig.xml, it will find the one in /Library/WebObjects/Configuration automatically. So the steps are : - Download the two archives from Hudson - Decompress/unarchive them and put them in /Library/WebObjects/JavaApplications - Change the owner and group of the files to be appserver/appserveradm (chown -R appserver:appserveradm /Library/WebObjects/JavaApplications) - Change the paths in the launchd scripts (they are probably in /Library/LaunchDaemons) so that the path start with /Library/WebObjects/JavaApplications instead of /System (in a word, just remove /System from the path) - Stop your WO apps - Stop (with launchctl) the current version of JavaMonitor and wotaskd - Start them (again, with launchctl) That's it. Beside the launchd files, you have nothing else to modify. -- Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca AIM/iChat : MacTICanada LinkedIn : http://www.linkedin.com/in/macti Twitter : pascal_robert ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mgargano%40escholar.com This email sent to mgarg...@escholar.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Many-to-Many Join Table PK
On Nov 16, 2010, at 12:32 PM, Ray Kiddy wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 6:32 AM, David Avendasora wrote: Hi all, I have a Many-to-Many relationship and the join table does _not_ have a compound PK. It has a normal PK with a dataType of Long. The FKs that represent the to-One relationships on the join table are simply FKs and not part of the PK. I would like to flatten the toMany relationships, but when I add an object to the relationship and EOF tries to create a row in the join table it tries to create a compound PK for the join table, even though the Model is very clear as to what the PK is. Is this the normal EOF behavior to ignore the Model's PK settings for the join table and just assume that the PK is compound? I've always avoided flattened relationships because every time I try to use them I run into problems and give up and go back to regular relationships because it seems the work that flattened relationships save always gets offset by the limitations they impose (either that or my limitations of ability to use them properly). Dave ___ Riffing off a problem I had recently, I would guess that the tool (ever so helpfully) set the 'propagate primary key' on the relationships going into the join table. If that property is set on the two relationships, that may be enough to confuse things. I checked that and no, Propagates Primary Key isn't set on any of the 4 relationships involved. Another detail is that I'm using Oracle and sequences to create the primary key, so I'm looking into a problem with that sequence as well. Dave ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Many-to-Many Join Table PK
Probably entity modeler should have a validation check that if you check propagates pk, but the receiving end is not a pk, then it should be an error. As far as the tool not always doing the right thing, technically the tool did the right thing when it made his join entity, and then he later mucked with the entity structure making the current state invalid. I would say that the tool could pretty easily correct for this, though. I think where you see an argument for not using the tool, I see an argument for having our tools suck less. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 12:32 PM, Ray Kiddy wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 6:32 AM, David Avendasora wrote: Hi all, I have a Many-to-Many relationship and the join table does _not_ have a compound PK. It has a normal PK with a dataType of Long. The FKs that represent the to-One relationships on the join table are simply FKs and not part of the PK. I would like to flatten the toMany relationships, but when I add an object to the relationship and EOF tries to create a row in the join table it tries to create a compound PK for the join table, even though the Model is very clear as to what the PK is. Is this the normal EOF behavior to ignore the Model's PK settings for the join table and just assume that the PK is compound? I've always avoided flattened relationships because every time I try to use them I run into problems and give up and go back to regular relationships because it seems the work that flattened relationships save always gets offset by the limitations they impose (either that or my limitations of ability to use them properly). Dave ___ Riffing off a problem I had recently, I would guess that the tool (ever so helpfully) set the 'propagate primary key' on the relationships going into the join table. If that property is set on the two relationships, that may be enough to confuse things. If you use WOLips to create the many-to-many relationships and the join table, it did set the 'propagate primary key'. The tools may not always (as an aside to ms) do the right thing. When I have created the scenario you describe, I never had problems, because I was creating the relationships manually and not setting 'propagate primary key'. Unfortunately, if one comes come up with the matrix of configurations for all the relationships and keys involved in a many-to-many relationship, there seems to be a lot of ways of configuring things. Some work and some do not. - ray ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40pobox.com This email sent to msch...@pobox.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment. This made it to my wall. I'm going to point at it whenever someone gets another crazy idea. On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Mike, couldn't you just have just left everyone with the cosy misconception that we wrote all this code 7 years ago, got it right first time and haven't had to touch it since? Alan On Nov 16, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Michael Gargano wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment. This made it to my wall. I'm going to point at it whenever someone gets another crazy idea. On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to aw...@apple.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Mike said your app, obviously excluding his apps. ;-) On Nov 16, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Alan Ward wrote: Mike, couldn't you just have just left everyone with the cosy misconception that we wrote all this code 7 years ago, got it right first time and haven't had to touch it since? Alan On Nov 16, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Michael Gargano wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment. This made it to my wall. I'm going to point at it whenever someone gets another crazy idea. On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to aw...@apple.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/chill%40global-village.net This email sent to ch...@global-village.net -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Of course I meant except ours :) That's why my title is Senior Engineer of Martini-Pouring Services, making sure we're all comfortably numb while we kick back and relax. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Alan Ward wrote: Mike, couldn't you just have just left everyone with the cosy misconception that we wrote all this code 7 years ago, got it right first time and haven't had to touch it since? Alan On Nov 16, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Michael Gargano wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment. This made it to my wall. I'm going to point at it whenever someone gets another crazy idea. On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to aw...@apple.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On 2010-11-16, at 2:11 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: Of course I meant except ours :) That's why my title is Senior Engineer of Martini-Pouring Services, making sure we're all comfortably numb while we kick back and relax. OK, the images I'm getting of you folks lounging around a pool sipping Mai Tais and waving palm fronds at one another is just way too creepy. Thanks for that. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Alan Ward wrote: Mike, couldn't you just have just left everyone with the cosy misconception that we wrote all this code 7 years ago, got it right first time and haven't had to touch it since? Alan On Nov 16, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Michael Gargano wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment. This made it to my wall. I'm going to point at it whenever someone gets another crazy idea. On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to aw...@apple.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/dleber_wodev%40codeferous.com This email sent to dleber_wo...@codeferous.com ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber twitter:http://twitter.com/rebeld -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On Nov 16, 2010, at 12:16 PM, David LeBer wrote: On 2010-11-16, at 2:11 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: Of course I meant except ours :) That's why my title is Senior Engineer of Martini-Pouring Services, making sure we're all comfortably numb while we kick back and relax. OK, the images I'm getting of you folks lounging around a pool sipping Mai Tais and waving palm fronds at one another is just way too creepy. The reality is just as creepy as the image - just trust me on that one! Alan Thanks for that. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Alan Ward wrote: Mike, couldn't you just have just left everyone with the cosy misconception that we wrote all this code 7 years ago, got it right first time and haven't had to touch it since? Alan On Nov 16, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Michael Gargano wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment. This made it to my wall. I'm going to point at it whenever someone gets another crazy idea. On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to aw...@apple.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/dleber_wodev%40codeferous.com This email sent to dleber_wo...@codeferous.com ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber twitter: http://twitter.com/rebeld -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Le 2010-11-16 à 14:42, Antonio Petri a écrit : Of course, the sad reality is that our industry loves to just syntactically masturbate with different languages and pretend that we're much better for it when the reality is that basically nothing has changed in 30 years in terms of how we actually solve problems. I get this as iTunes, Google and Twitter could have well been built using Pascal (the language...) No, because Pascal is too fat :-) At least that was one of my teachers said in college when we had to do a DOS (!!) app to send files over a NULL modem and he said that we will do the project in C because Pascal is too fat... On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:50 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: I agree with this too. Problem or fixed complexity must be dealt with somewhere in the system, and arguments often abound as to where that should be done (almost always without people recognizing that fact). I wrote on that recently too: http://www.ianjoyner.name/Ian_Joyner/Complexity.html so am in vehement agreement. It's always a problem getting something to run quickly, like Twitter, to see if it succeeds or fails, before committing significant resources, and then like Twitter maybe rewriting your message queues in Scala for speed. (Something done by WO, I think?) But getting something quickly done in WO, might be a problem. Pascal's words about learning cliff still ring in my ears ;-) Ian On 16 Nov 2010, at 12:20, Mike Schrag wrote: I think you also have to weigh the dramatically more complex security and protocol required to handle state on the client. You get a huge amount for free with WO in terms of state transition management that you have to build yourself if you use almost any other system. You also get a large amount for free with WO with respect to security because you can count on that you called this action means you were allowed to see this action, whereas a traditional restful system requires security enforcement for every action. Also consider that your site isn't iTunes, Google, or Twitter. Most applications don't have to scale all that much, and almost certainly are within the realm of a few servers and dumping ram into your box. I also don't care what tools and frameworks you built your system with. If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment. If you built your app with rest, all you're doing is shifting your load in other ways. Like Chuck said, you get a lot of caching for free with WO that you have to figure out how to get back with stateless architectures. And the most common method? Shared object caches -- Memcached, Coherence, etc. WO/EOF essentially has this architecture (on the persistence side), but with local caches in the snapshot cache that serve whatever sessions you send to it. With a little bit of work with sharding your users, you can take advantage of that by routing users to appropriate instances. The moral of the story is that every technology sucks, so you might as well just build it fast so it can suck in production faster and you can move on with your life. ms On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:02 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 4:53 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: On 16 Nov 2010, at 11:35, David LeBer wrote: On 2010-11-15, at 7:09 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: (Not that I'm doing any WO these days, but I still like to follow.) One thing that has always worried me about scalability is keeping the per user application state on the server in WOSession. Knowing more about REST now, this is very unrestful and not stateless, which means will not scale. I don't see why something being unrestful and not stateless automatically equates to not being able to scale. Perhaps you could explain. The problem is that once you get 1000s and millions of users you have the problem of memory size storing all that session information in memory on the server. As with any system, the number of concurrent users that can be handled on a given server depends on both the application and the technology that it is built on. I will grant you that WO probably uses more memory per user than many technologies. But memory usage is only one part of the equation. Server must also manage all these sessions - clean them out every so often. And (in middleware systems I worked on in the 80s) keep track of state transitions with FSMs, etc. Yes you need session state, ie context, but it should be kept on the client, which sends it along with each request. Thus user state is kept only on the client which makes recoverability easier too, because if the server is rebooted, client can continue oblivious to any problem. Yes, recoverability
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
I think Mike and I should get together and form The Association of Luddites Named Mike. That quote gives the term syntactic sugar a disturbing twist. On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:27 PM, David Avendasora wrote: I just have to say, Mike is on a role this thread: 1) If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment. 2) The moral of the story is that every technology sucks, so you might as well just build it fast so it can suck in production faster and you can move on with your life. And Last, but certainly not least (and my favorite): 3) Of course, the sad reality is that our industry loves to just syntactically masturbate with different languages and pretend that we're much better for it when the reality is that basically nothing has changed in 30 years in terms of how we actually solve problems. With the direction he's going, he's going to describe the relationship between Scala, Java and Ruby as some kind of twisted three-way. I can't wait! Dave On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:11 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: Of course I meant except ours :) That's why my title is Senior Engineer of Martini-Pouring Services, making sure we're all comfortably numb while we kick back and relax. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Alan Ward wrote: Mike, couldn't you just have just left everyone with the cosy misconception that we wrote all this code 7 years ago, got it right first time and haven't had to touch it since? Alan On Nov 16, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Michael Gargano wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment. This made it to my wall. I'm going to point at it whenever someone gets another crazy idea. On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to aw...@apple.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/webobjects%40avendasora.com This email sent to webobje...@avendasora.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mgargano%40escholar.com This email sent to mgarg...@escholar.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Consuming SOAP (mmm, delicious)
I've never worked with SOAP before, definitely with XML and REST apis. Is there a good example of how to generate a SOAP request and process the results. Do WO and/or WOnder have any magic for this? Any help in pointing me in the right direction would be of great help. Thanks, Lon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
EOModel is not in EOModelGroup's defaultGroup
Hi, I'm trying to run some unit tests on a new model but for some reason the model is not getting loaded into the default model group. If I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the static initializer I can see that the model is not in there. How do I get the model into the defaultGroup? I think this happened because I originally added the model to the wrong framework and then I moved it over via copy/paste. Thanks, Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Now that I think of it, I'm not so sure I do agree that every technology sucks. I certainly can appreciate well-designed elegant technologies that solve a problem well. That's part of the excitement with this profession. If everything just sucked most of us wouldn't be in it, well maybe those who are just in it for the money, and perhaps they dominate the industry anyway, which sucks and why there might be a high suck factor in technologies that actually are used. And if all these technologies just sucked there would be no use for them and end users would reject them. The uses that we can put computers to are cool actually! Most computing systems are multifaceted, so there may be elements that are elegant and parts that suck. What we need is a measure of elegance to suck ratio. Ian PS I went through messages back to 2005, but couldn't find the first reference to REST. Mail find picks up all words like restart, restrict, etc. ERRest seems to be first mentioned Nov 2007, but I know we were talking about REST before that - I first read Fielding's thesis sometime that year. On 16 Nov 2010, at 12:33, Ian Joyner wrote: On 16 Nov 2010, at 12:23, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 5:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: The moral of the story is that every technology sucks, so you might as well just build it fast so it can suck in production faster and you can move on with your life. I hate it when he is right. Don't think I hate it, but I think we all agree anyway. We should choose the path of least pain. By the way I did write up my understanding of REST lately: http://www.ianjoyner.name/Ian_Joyner/REST.html I hope this might be useful, or if any errors let me know. By the way, I think it was Chuck who was the first person I ever heard use the term REST. Ian ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ianjoyner%40me.com This email sent to ianjoy...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On 17 Nov 2010, at 06:49, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 2010-11-16 à 14:42, Antonio Petri a écrit : Of course, the sad reality is that our industry loves to just syntactically masturbate with different languages and pretend that we're much better for it when the reality is that basically nothing has changed in 30 years in terms of how we actually solve problems. I get this as iTunes, Google and Twitter could have well been built using Pascal (the language...) No, because Pascal is too fat :-) At least that was one of my teachers said in college when we had to do a DOS (!!) app to send files over a NULL modem and he said that we will do the project in C because Pascal is too fat... C is both fat and lean - the wrong way round - fat with traps and bereft of sensible patterns, like good string and array handling. It is sad to see how teachers like that helped establish C - the worst thing that ever happened to computing - in a dominant position. Now that really SUCKS! I think I'll reiterate Bob Barton's quote: Systems programmers are high priest of a low cult http://www.smalltalk.org/smalltalk/TheEarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk_VI.html On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:50 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: I agree with this too. Problem or fixed complexity must be dealt with somewhere in the system, and arguments often abound as to where that should be done (almost always without people recognizing that fact). I wrote on that recently too: http://www.ianjoyner.name/Ian_Joyner/Complexity.html so am in vehement agreement. It's always a problem getting something to run quickly, like Twitter, to see if it succeeds or fails, before committing significant resources, and then like Twitter maybe rewriting your message queues in Scala for speed. (Something done by WO, I think?) But getting something quickly done in WO, might be a problem. Pascal's words about learning cliff still ring in my ears ;-) Ian ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
It was for dramatic literary effect ... Obviously every technology has things that are cool and things that are terrible. However, I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed that, after 13 years, there isn't a clear choice of a technology to switch to from WO. For all of its pitfalls, I think WO has a really good balance of engineering decisions, and the length of its survival is a testament to that. Given that there has really been almost no external development of WO in years, you'd think that I could name a single technology that is an obvious choice to move to that has comparable trade-offs, but I have yet to see one that excites me in the same way. The problem is that you can't just make a suck ratio, because everyone has different values for suck coefficients. You could probably make a suck linear combination, though. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:26 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: Now that I think of it, I'm not so sure I do agree that every technology sucks. I certainly can appreciate well-designed elegant technologies that solve a problem well. That's part of the excitement with this profession. If everything just sucked most of us wouldn't be in it, well maybe those who are just in it for the money, and perhaps they dominate the industry anyway, which sucks and why there might be a high suck factor in technologies that actually are used. And if all these technologies just sucked there would be no use for them and end users would reject them. The uses that we can put computers to are cool actually! Most computing systems are multifaceted, so there may be elements that are elegant and parts that suck. What we need is a measure of elegance to suck ratio. Ian PS I went through messages back to 2005, but couldn't find the first reference to REST. Mail find picks up all words like restart, restrict, etc. ERRest seems to be first mentioned Nov 2007, but I know we were talking about REST before that - I first read Fielding's thesis sometime that year. On 16 Nov 2010, at 12:33, Ian Joyner wrote: On 16 Nov 2010, at 12:23, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 5:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: The moral of the story is that every technology sucks, so you might as well just build it fast so it can suck in production faster and you can move on with your life. I hate it when he is right. Don't think I hate it, but I think we all agree anyway. We should choose the path of least pain. By the way I did write up my understanding of REST lately: http://www.ianjoyner.name/Ian_Joyner/REST.html I hope this might be useful, or if any errors let me know. By the way, I think it was Chuck who was the first person I ever heard use the term REST. Ian ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ianjoyner%40me.com This email sent to ianjoy...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40pobox.com This email sent to msch...@pobox.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
I'm sure a good quant could build a suck correlation matrix and do a complete analysis...I happen to agree - the only platform I like as much as WO is Cocoa :) On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:40 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: It was for dramatic literary effect ... Obviously every technology has things that are cool and things that are terrible. However, I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed that, after 13 years, there isn't a clear choice of a technology to switch to from WO. For all of its pitfalls, I think WO has a really good balance of engineering decisions, and the length of its survival is a testament to that. Given that there has really been almost no external development of WO in years, you'd think that I could name a single technology that is an obvious choice to move to that has comparable trade-offs, but I have yet to see one that excites me in the same way. The problem is that you can't just make a suck ratio, because everyone has different values for suck coefficients. You could probably make a suck linear combination, though. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
It almost amuses me that we having these WO scalability conversations now. 10 years ago it was a ballsy move to use WO for a big online application. Now I think it's more proven than ever even though the pace of development has clearly scaled back. It's funny that none of the newer technologies really offer anything that's clearly better. Just my [personal] $0.02 Alan On Nov 16, 2010, at 3:40 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: It was for dramatic literary effect ... Obviously every technology has things that are cool and things that are terrible. However, I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed that, after 13 years, there isn't a clear choice of a technology to switch to from WO. For all of its pitfalls, I think WO has a really good balance of engineering decisions, and the length of its survival is a testament to that. Given that there has really been almost no external development of WO in years, you'd think that I could name a single technology that is an obvious choice to move to that has comparable trade-offs, but I have yet to see one that excites me in the same way. The problem is that you can't just make a suck ratio, because everyone has different values for suck coefficients. You could probably make a suck linear combination, though. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:26 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: Now that I think of it, I'm not so sure I do agree that every technology sucks. I certainly can appreciate well-designed elegant technologies that solve a problem well. That's part of the excitement with this profession. If everything just sucked most of us wouldn't be in it, well maybe those who are just in it for the money, and perhaps they dominate the industry anyway, which sucks and why there might be a high suck factor in technologies that actually are used. And if all these technologies just sucked there would be no use for them and end users would reject them. The uses that we can put computers to are cool actually! Most computing systems are multifaceted, so there may be elements that are elegant and parts that suck. What we need is a measure of elegance to suck ratio. Ian PS I went through messages back to 2005, but couldn't find the first reference to REST. Mail find picks up all words like restart, restrict, etc. ERRest seems to be first mentioned Nov 2007, but I know we were talking about REST before that - I first read Fielding's thesis sometime that year. On 16 Nov 2010, at 12:33, Ian Joyner wrote: On 16 Nov 2010, at 12:23, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 5:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: The moral of the story is that every technology sucks, so you might as well just build it fast so it can suck in production faster and you can move on with your life. I hate it when he is right. Don't think I hate it, but I think we all agree anyway. We should choose the path of least pain. By the way I did write up my understanding of REST lately: http://www.ianjoyner.name/Ian_Joyner/REST.html I hope this might be useful, or if any errors let me know. By the way, I think it was Chuck who was the first person I ever heard use the term REST. Ian ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ianjoyner%40me.com This email sent to ianjoy...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40pobox.com This email sent to msch...@pobox.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to aw...@apple.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Me too. I wish Eclipse copied the Xcode 4 UI. On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:43 PM, Ken Anderson wrote: I'm sure a good quant could build a suck correlation matrix and do a complete analysis...I happen to agree - the only platform I like as much as WO is Cocoa :) On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:40 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: It was for dramatic literary effect ... Obviously every technology has things that are cool and things that are terrible. However, I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed that, after 13 years, there isn't a clear choice of a technology to switch to from WO. For all of its pitfalls, I think WO has a really good balance of engineering decisions, and the length of its survival is a testament to that. Given that there has really been almost no external development of WO in years, you'd think that I could name a single technology that is an obvious choice to move to that has comparable trade-offs, but I have yet to see one that excites me in the same way. The problem is that you can't just make a suck ratio, because everyone has different values for suck coefficients. You could probably make a suck linear combination, though. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/rparada%40mac.com This email sent to rpar...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On 17/11/2010, at 6:03 AM, Alan Ward wrote: Mike, couldn't you just have just left everyone with the cosy misconception that we wrote all this code 7 years ago, got it right first time and haven't had to touch it since? Oh the irony ;) such a misconception was surely already the inevitable consequence from a certain party's lack of communication :) Alan On Nov 16, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Michael Gargano wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment. This made it to my wall. I'm going to point at it whenever someone gets another crazy idea. On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: If you DO become iTunes, Google, or Twitter, your app won't scale. Period. I've never seen a system that scales without investing substantial engineering effort in profiling and rearchitecture after deployment ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to aw...@apple.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lachlan.deck%40gmail.com This email sent to lachlan.d...@gmail.com with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On 17 Nov 2010, at 09:40, Mike Schrag wrote: It was for dramatic literary effect ... That's the way I took it to agree with. But as always your sayings are thought provoking. Just thought I'd up the provocation. (Isn't that silly provo-k-ing, provo-c-ation.) I only have two problems with WO. The first biggy - no jobs around here in it (could be the old problem of lack of introductory materials) (my) suck ratio: high. And second, the Java lock in. Would be nice to interface to other languages Objective-C, Eiffel (my) suck ratio: medium. Oh well. Ian Obviously every technology has things that are cool and things that are terrible. However, I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed that, after 13 years, there isn't a clear choice of a technology to switch to from WO. For all of its pitfalls, I think WO has a really good balance of engineering decisions, and the length of its survival is a testament to that. Given that there has really been almost no external development of WO in years, you'd think that I could name a single technology that is an obvious choice to move to that has comparable trade-offs, but I have yet to see one that excites me in the same way. The problem is that you can't just make a suck ratio, because everyone has different values for suck coefficients. You could probably make a suck linear combination, though. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:26 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: Now that I think of it, I'm not so sure I do agree that every technology sucks. I certainly can appreciate well-designed elegant technologies that solve a problem well. That's part of the excitement with this profession. If everything just sucked most of us wouldn't be in it, well maybe those who are just in it for the money, and perhaps they dominate the industry anyway, which sucks and why there might be a high suck factor in technologies that actually are used. And if all these technologies just sucked there would be no use for them and end users would reject them. The uses that we can put computers to are cool actually! Most computing systems are multifaceted, so there may be elements that are elegant and parts that suck. What we need is a measure of elegance to suck ratio. Ian PS I went through messages back to 2005, but couldn't find the first reference to REST. Mail find picks up all words like restart, restrict, etc. ERRest seems to be first mentioned Nov 2007, but I know we were talking about REST before that - I first read Fielding's thesis sometime that year. On 16 Nov 2010, at 12:33, Ian Joyner wrote: On 16 Nov 2010, at 12:23, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 5:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: The moral of the story is that every technology sucks, so you might as well just build it fast so it can suck in production faster and you can move on with your life. I hate it when he is right. Don't think I hate it, but I think we all agree anyway. We should choose the path of least pain. By the way I did write up my understanding of REST lately: http://www.ianjoyner.name/Ian_Joyner/REST.html I hope this might be useful, or if any errors let me know. By the way, I think it was Chuck who was the first person I ever heard use the term REST. Ian ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ianjoyner%40me.com This email sent to ianjoy...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40pobox.com This email sent to msch...@pobox.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
The fact that WO hasn't changed so much with time may be a sign that it got it right from the beginning. If you look at JEE (or J2EE), which may be considered as a competitor of WO, it has gone through several major cycles, producing deep changes in the existing technologies like EJB and introducing new technologies like JSF. With the new JEE 6 now coming, it looks like they are still trying to get it right... On 16 Nov 2010, at 22:46, Alan Ward wrote: It almost amuses me that we having these WO scalability conversations now. 10 years ago it was a ballsy move to use WO for a big online application. Now I think it's more proven than ever even though the pace of development has clearly scaled back. It's funny that none of the newer technologies really offer anything that's clearly better. Just my [personal] $0.02 Alan On Nov 16, 2010, at 3:40 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: It was for dramatic literary effect ... Obviously every technology has things that are cool and things that are terrible. However, I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed that, after 13 years, there isn't a clear choice of a technology to switch to from WO. For all of its pitfalls, I think WO has a really good balance of engineering decisions, and the length of its survival is a testament to that. Given that there has really been almost no external development of WO in years, you'd think that I could name a single technology that is an obvious choice to move to that has comparable trade-offs, but I have yet to see one that excites me in the same way. The problem is that you can't just make a suck ratio, because everyone has different values for suck coefficients. You could probably make a suck linear combination, though. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:26 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: Now that I think of it, I'm not so sure I do agree that every technology sucks. I certainly can appreciate well-designed elegant technologies that solve a problem well. That's part of the excitement with this profession. If everything just sucked most of us wouldn't be in it, well maybe those who are just in it for the money, and perhaps they dominate the industry anyway, which sucks and why there might be a high suck factor in technologies that actually are used. And if all these technologies just sucked there would be no use for them and end users would reject them. The uses that we can put computers to are cool actually! Most computing systems are multifaceted, so there may be elements that are elegant and parts that suck. What we need is a measure of elegance to suck ratio. Ian PS I went through messages back to 2005, but couldn't find the first reference to REST. Mail find picks up all words like restart, restrict, etc. ERRest seems to be first mentioned Nov 2007, but I know we were talking about REST before that - I first read Fielding's thesis sometime that year. On 16 Nov 2010, at 12:33, Ian Joyner wrote: On 16 Nov 2010, at 12:23, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 5:20 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: The moral of the story is that every technology sucks, so you might as well just build it fast so it can suck in production faster and you can move on with your life. I hate it when he is right. Don't think I hate it, but I think we all agree anyway. We should choose the path of least pain. By the way I did write up my understanding of REST lately: http://www.ianjoyner.name/Ian_Joyner/REST.html I hope this might be useful, or if any errors let me know. By the way, I think it was Chuck who was the first person I ever heard use the term REST. Ian ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/ianjoyner%40me.com This email sent to ianjoy...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40pobox.com This email sent to msch...@pobox.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award%40apple.com This email sent to aw...@apple.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Re: EOModel is not in EOModelGroup's defaultGroup
On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Hi, I'm trying to run some unit tests on a new model but for some reason the model is not getting loaded into the default model group. If I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the static initializer I can see that the model is not in there. How do I get the model into the defaultGroup? I think this happened because I originally added the model to the wrong framework and then I moved it over via copy/paste. Is it in the Resources/ folder of the project? -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Bigger guns in defence of Pascal. Even if one doesn't think of C as being fat and flabby, C++ certainly is. This quote comes from John Backus: Can Programming be Liberated from the von Neumann Style? http://www.thocp.net/biographies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf 1. Conventional Programming Languages: Fat and Flabby Programming languages appear to be in trouble. Each successive language incorporates, with a little cleaning up, all the features of its predecessors plus a few more. Some languages have manuals exceeding 500 pages; others cram a complex description into shorter manuals by using dense formalisms. The Department of Defense has current plans for a committee-designed language standard that could require a manual as long as 1,000 pages. Each new language claims new and fashionable features, such as strong typing or structured control statements, but the plain fact is that few languages make programming sufficiently cheaper or more reliable to justify the cost of producing and learning to use them. Since large increases in size bring only small increases in power, smaller, more elegant languages such as Pascal continue to be popular. But there is a desperate need for a powerful methodology to help us think about programs, and no conventional language even begins to meet that need. In fact, conventional languages create unnecessary confusion in the way we think about programs. For twenty years programming languages have been steadily progressing toward their present condition of obesity; as a result, the study and invention of programming languages has lost much of its excitement. Instead, it is now the province of those who prefer to work with thick compendia of details rather than wrestle with new ideas. Discussions about programming languages often resemble medieval debates about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin instead of exciting contests between fundamentally differing concepts. Many creative computer scientists have retreated from inventing languages to inventing tools for describing them. Unfortunately, they have been largely content to apply their elegant new tools to studying the warts and moles of existing languages. After examining the appalling type structure of conventional languages, using the elegant tools developed by Dana Scott, it is surprising that so many of us remain passively content with that structure instead of energetically searching for new ones. The purpose of this article is twofold; first, to suggest that basic defects in the framework of conventional languages make their expressive weakness and their cancerous growth inevitable, and second, to suggest some alternate avenues of exploration toward the design of new kinds of languages. On 17 Nov 2010, at 09:35, Ian Joyner wrote: On 17 Nov 2010, at 06:49, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 2010-11-16 à 14:42, Antonio Petri a écrit : Of course, the sad reality is that our industry loves to just syntactically masturbate with different languages and pretend that we're much better for it when the reality is that basically nothing has changed in 30 years in terms of how we actually solve problems. I get this as iTunes, Google and Twitter could have well been built using Pascal (the language...) No, because Pascal is too fat :-) At least that was one of my teachers said in college when we had to do a DOS (!!) app to send files over a NULL modem and he said that we will do the project in C because Pascal is too fat... C is both fat and lean - the wrong way round - fat with traps and bereft of sensible patterns, like good string and array handling. It is sad to see how teachers like that helped establish C - the worst thing that ever happened to computing - in a dominant position. Now that really SUCKS! I think I'll reiterate Bob Barton's quote: Systems programmers are high priest of a low cult http://www.smalltalk.org/smalltalk/TheEarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk_VI.html On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:50 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: I agree with this too. Problem or fixed complexity must be dealt with somewhere in the system, and arguments often abound as to where that should be done (almost always without people recognizing that fact). I wrote on that recently too: http://www.ianjoyner.name/Ian_Joyner/Complexity.html so am in vehement agreement. It's always a problem getting something to run quickly, like Twitter, to see if it succeeds or fails, before committing significant resources, and then like Twitter maybe rewriting your message queues in Scala for speed. (Something done by WO, I think?) But getting something quickly done in WO, might be a problem. Pascal's words about learning cliff still ring in my ears ;-) Ian ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com)
Re: EOModel is not in EOModelGroup's defaultGroup
Yes. It is really strange. I'm now loading the Model to the default model group with addModelWithPath in my JUnit static initializer - which put a bandaid on the issue. However, in an application that uses this framework if I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the application's construction the model is in there. thanks, Johnny On Nov 16, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Hi, I'm trying to run some unit tests on a new model but for some reason the model is not getting loaded into the default model group. If I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the static initializer I can see that the model is not in there. How do I get the model into the defaultGroup? I think this happened because I originally added the model to the wrong framework and then I moved it over via copy/paste. Is it in the Resources/ folder of the project? -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: EOModel is not in EOModelGroup's defaultGroup
Are you not calling WOApplication.primeApplication() in your unit tests? Also, IIRC, the working directory needs to be the Contents (IIRC) directory of a .woa or the Resources/Java directory of a framework for NSBundle to find things. Though with the new bundling from Wonder that may have changed. Chuck On Nov 16, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Yes. It is really strange. I'm now loading the Model to the default model group with addModelWithPath in my JUnit static initializer - which put a bandaid on the issue. However, in an application that uses this framework if I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the application's construction the model is in there. thanks, Johnny On Nov 16, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Hi, I'm trying to run some unit tests on a new model but for some reason the model is not getting loaded into the default model group. If I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the static initializer I can see that the model is not in there. How do I get the model into the defaultGroup? I think this happened because I originally added the model to the wrong framework and then I moved it over via copy/paste. Is it in the Resources/ folder of the project? -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: EOModel is not in EOModelGroup's defaultGroup
if you use the new bundle stuff, you can just run with -DNSProjectBundleEnabled=true and you'll get models loaded for free. if you don't you have to either add the models yourself, or prime the application. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: Are you not calling WOApplication.primeApplication() in your unit tests? Also, IIRC, the working directory needs to be the Contents (IIRC) directory of a .woa or the Resources/Java directory of a framework for NSBundle to find things. Though with the new bundling from Wonder that may have changed. Chuck On Nov 16, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Yes. It is really strange. I'm now loading the Model to the default model group with addModelWithPath in my JUnit static initializer - which put a bandaid on the issue. However, in an application that uses this framework if I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the application's construction the model is in there. thanks, Johnny On Nov 16, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Hi, I'm trying to run some unit tests on a new model but for some reason the model is not getting loaded into the default model group. If I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the static initializer I can see that the model is not in there. How do I get the model into the defaultGroup? I think this happened because I originally added the model to the wrong framework and then I moved it over via copy/paste. Is it in the Resources/ folder of the project? -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40pobox.com This email sent to msch...@pobox.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: EOModel is not in EOModelGroup's defaultGroup
No, I was not aware of that method. My pattern is that I put my models in frameworks and then I create unit tests per framework to test the model and model related functions. IDK why this one failed but it is the same process I've been using on my other models/frameworks. Given that pattern I'm not sure I understand how to use WOApplication.primeApplication. On Nov 16, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: Are you not calling WOApplication.primeApplication() in your unit tests? Also, IIRC, the working directory needs to be the Contents (IIRC) directory of a .woa or the Resources/Java directory of a framework for NSBundle to find things. Though with the new bundling from Wonder that may have changed. Chuck On Nov 16, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Yes. It is really strange. I'm now loading the Model to the default model group with addModelWithPath in my JUnit static initializer - which put a bandaid on the issue. However, in an application that uses this framework if I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the application's construction the model is in there. thanks, Johnny On Nov 16, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Hi, I'm trying to run some unit tests on a new model but for some reason the model is not getting loaded into the default model group. If I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the static initializer I can see that the model is not in there. How do I get the model into the defaultGroup? I think this happened because I originally added the model to the wrong framework and then I moved it over via copy/paste. Is it in the Resources/ folder of the project? -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: EOModel is not in EOModelGroup's defaultGroup
I tried adding that property to the JUnit Launch Configuration Program Arguments but it didn't seem to help. thanks, Johnny On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: if you use the new bundle stuff, you can just run with -DNSProjectBundleEnabled=true and you'll get models loaded for free. if you don't you have to either add the models yourself, or prime the application. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: Are you not calling WOApplication.primeApplication() in your unit tests? Also, IIRC, the working directory needs to be the Contents (IIRC) directory of a .woa or the Resources/Java directory of a framework for NSBundle to find things. Though with the new bundling from Wonder that may have changed. Chuck On Nov 16, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Yes. It is really strange. I'm now loading the Model to the default model group with addModelWithPath in my JUnit static initializer - which put a bandaid on the issue. However, in an application that uses this framework if I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the application's construction the model is in there. thanks, Johnny On Nov 16, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Hi, I'm trying to run some unit tests on a new model but for some reason the model is not getting loaded into the default model group. If I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the static initializer I can see that the model is not in there. How do I get the model into the defaultGroup? I think this happened because I originally added the model to the wrong framework and then I moved it over via copy/paste. Is it in the Resources/ folder of the project? -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40pobox.com This email sent to msch...@pobox.com Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: EOModel is not in EOModelGroup's defaultGroup
you have to be using the reasonably new wonder 5.4 build to get this ... however, i've never tried this with launching a junit test from a non-app. i have no idea what it will do. i honestly don't know how your tests ever worked without manually adding the models to the modelgroup. On Nov 16, 2010, at 7:15 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: I tried adding that property to the JUnit Launch Configuration Program Arguments but it didn't seem to help. thanks, Johnny On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: if you use the new bundle stuff, you can just run with -DNSProjectBundleEnabled=true and you'll get models loaded for free. if you don't you have to either add the models yourself, or prime the application. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: Are you not calling WOApplication.primeApplication() in your unit tests? Also, IIRC, the working directory needs to be the Contents (IIRC) directory of a .woa or the Resources/Java directory of a framework for NSBundle to find things. Though with the new bundling from Wonder that may have changed. Chuck On Nov 16, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Yes. It is really strange. I'm now loading the Model to the default model group with addModelWithPath in my JUnit static initializer - which put a bandaid on the issue. However, in an application that uses this framework if I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the application's construction the model is in there. thanks, Johnny On Nov 16, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Hi, I'm trying to run some unit tests on a new model but for some reason the model is not getting loaded into the default model group. If I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the static initializer I can see that the model is not in there. How do I get the model into the defaultGroup? I think this happened because I originally added the model to the wrong framework and then I moved it over via copy/paste. Is it in the Resources/ folder of the project? -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40pobox.com This email sent to msch...@pobox.com Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: EOModel is not in EOModelGroup's defaultGroup
OK, LOL. Just lucky I guess. From now on I'll manually load the models. Thanks a lot, Johnny On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:17 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: you have to be using the reasonably new wonder 5.4 build to get this ... however, i've never tried this with launching a junit test from a non-app. i have no idea what it will do. i honestly don't know how your tests ever worked without manually adding the models to the modelgroup. On Nov 16, 2010, at 7:15 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: I tried adding that property to the JUnit Launch Configuration Program Arguments but it didn't seem to help. thanks, Johnny On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: if you use the new bundle stuff, you can just run with -DNSProjectBundleEnabled=true and you'll get models loaded for free. if you don't you have to either add the models yourself, or prime the application. ms On Nov 16, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: Are you not calling WOApplication.primeApplication() in your unit tests? Also, IIRC, the working directory needs to be the Contents (IIRC) directory of a .woa or the Resources/Java directory of a framework for NSBundle to find things. Though with the new bundling from Wonder that may have changed. Chuck On Nov 16, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Yes. It is really strange. I'm now loading the Model to the default model group with addModelWithPath in my JUnit static initializer - which put a bandaid on the issue. However, in an application that uses this framework if I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the application's construction the model is in there. thanks, Johnny On Nov 16, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Johnny Miller wrote: Hi, I'm trying to run some unit tests on a new model but for some reason the model is not getting loaded into the default model group. If I put System.out.println(EOModelGroup.defaultGroup()); in the static initializer I can see that the model is not in there. How do I get the model into the defaultGroup? I think this happened because I originally added the model to the wrong framework and then I moved it over via copy/paste. Is it in the Resources/ folder of the project? -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40pobox.com This email sent to msch...@pobox.com Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp http://www.kahalawai.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: On 16 Nov 2010, at 14:52, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 6:51 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: That's a good distinction about quickly. Seems most get a kick from the first learning of something to get it quickly happening. Hence lowest-common-denominator languages like BASIC become popular. It's good to get people into things quickly, as long as they get the intellectual impetus to learn something better. But often these languages are treated with scorn and derision as teaching languages or moralistic in some way because people don't understand why more complex solutions are needed as the problems scale up. There was an interesting viewpoint article in Communications ACM recently by Ben-Ari about Objects Never, well hardly ever, where he advocated teaching procedural programming before OO. But I think it's the same thing as we teach kids variables and assignments and how to crash programs because that's exciting, rather than techniques like functional programming because that requires more reasoning. So while WO might be better for complex applications, perhaps WO hasn't addressed the entry level enough so that people get their hit early of seeing something working. While WOnder added a lot of stuff that was needed to keep WO up-to-date, it made entry level even more difficult. I don't know that it did. I think what has made the entry level more difficult is the lack of printed material and a tutorial. Yes, I think I had a gripe about that a month ago or so. All Apple's pages say is Legacy Document. Yes and not likely to change. What happened to Janine's tutorial. She is starting to revive it. In-between bouts of life. Yes, you need a Hello World example you can get going in five minutes (including installing the software). (Although, about 7 years ago I had terrible trouble getting Heelo World to work because I had a space in the project name Hello World. These little things are killers. Most of our students used Django this year, rather than RoR because RoR was a pain to install, particularly on Windows (even on a Mac if you don't have Xcode installed). One student in his experience report mentioned that professional programmers should spend extra time on making their stuff usable and easily installable if they are going to expect people to use their systems. Salient advice all around and I think he scored 100%. I think an important distinction here is between expect people to use their systems and allow people to use their systems. Wonder largely falls in the second category. I made this because I found it interesting and you can use it if you want. Neither WO nor Wonder are now marketed products and there is little incentive to make them appear like they are. Before, you could follow the Apple tutorial and get something working fairly quickly and in an understandable form. The problem was that it was poor code and had a number of unmentioned bugs in it. To a large part, using Wonder at the same level (vs trying to understand what it is doing or fixing a problem) reduces the number of potential problem and occasions to pick up poor coding practices. At present there is no good tutorial or introductory level documentation. If there was, a much higher quality application could be built more quickly than without. Yes, there should be a core and then add more complex, specific technologies, so you can go in any particular direction as needed. WO has become a series of learning cliffs: first WO proper, then Wonder, then D2W, then the outlying parts of Wonder, then ERRest, then... WebObjects all in is HUGE. Add poorly or inconsistently documented to that and learning it is a problem we still struggle with. There is too much legacy technology for a volunteer community to deal with. Jobs has always been good at taking a mess and rationalising it, but I think for WO, there is nothing forcing Apple to do it. Nor any incentive to do so. Another Barton quote (about FORTRAN in 1963): a user-cult formed which is now quite effectively hampering progress in the adoption of improved scientific languages. :-) Chuck I like Bob Barton's quote (via Alan Kay I think) that Systems programmers are high priests of a low cult. Ian On 16 Nov 2010, at 13:29, Mike Schrag wrote: I think quickly has two interpretations ... There's quickly from knowing nothing about the technology and starting an app from scratch and there's quickly from understanding the technology and starting an app from scratch. If you interpret quickly as not knowing anything at ALL, it's probably faster to bootstrap a rails app. If you interpret quickly as understanding WO and just starting a new app from scratch, there are a lot of classes of apps that you can produce faster as a WO app. Of course, the sad reality is that our industry loves
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On 17 Nov 2010, at 11:43, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: One student in his experience report mentioned that professional programmers should spend extra time on making their stuff usable and easily installable if they are going to expect people to use their systems. Salient advice all around and I think he scored 100%. I think an important distinction here is between expect people to use their systems and allow people to use their systems. Wonder largely falls in the second category. I made this because I found it interesting and you can use it if you want. Neither WO nor Wonder are now marketed products and there is little incentive to make them appear like they are. Well I meant expect more in the sense of (cmd-ctrl-d) regarding something as likely to happen and from the Thesaurus in the anticipate sense, not the require or insist on sense. People use Rails, Django, and Pylons because they think they're cool. Don't know how to get that cool factor into WO. But removing each hurdle would help. Perhaps development on different platforms would help - if we wanted to teach WO, we couldn't because that would require students to go out and buy Macs (something we subtly encourage but don't 'expect'). Ian ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Le 2010-11-16 à 19:43, Chuck Hill a écrit : On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: On 16 Nov 2010, at 14:52, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 6:51 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: That's a good distinction about quickly. Seems most get a kick from the first learning of something to get it quickly happening. Hence lowest-common-denominator languages like BASIC become popular. It's good to get people into things quickly, as long as they get the intellectual impetus to learn something better. But often these languages are treated with scorn and derision as teaching languages or moralistic in some way because people don't understand why more complex solutions are needed as the problems scale up. There was an interesting viewpoint article in Communications ACM recently by Ben-Ari about Objects Never, well hardly ever, where he advocated teaching procedural programming before OO. But I think it's the same thing as we teach kids variables and assignments and how to crash programs because that's exciting, rather than techniques like functional programming because that requires more reasoning. So while WO might be better for complex applications, perhaps WO hasn't addressed the entry level enough so that people get their hit early of seeing something working. While WOnder added a lot of stuff that was needed to keep WO up-to-date, it made entry level even more difficult. I don't know that it did. I think what has made the entry level more difficult is the lack of printed material and a tutorial. Yes, I think I had a gripe about that a month ago or so. All Apple's pages say is Legacy Document. Yes and not likely to change. What happened to Janine's tutorial. She is starting to revive it. In-between bouts of life. Yes, you need a Hello World example you can get going in five minutes (including installing the software). (Although, about 7 years ago I had terrible trouble getting Heelo World to work because I had a space in the project name Hello World. These little things are killers. Most of our students used Django this year, rather than RoR because RoR was a pain to install, particularly on Windows (even on a Mac if you don't have Xcode installed). One student in his experience report mentioned that professional programmers should spend extra time on making their stuff usable and easily installable if they are going to expect people to use their systems. Salient advice all around and I think he scored 100%. I think an important distinction here is between expect people to use their systems and allow people to use their systems. Wonder largely falls in the second category. I made this because I found it interesting and you can use it if you want. Neither WO nor Wonder are now marketed products and there is little incentive to make them appear like they are. Wonder was marketed in the past?? Before, you could follow the Apple tutorial and get something working fairly quickly and in an understandable form. The problem was that it was poor code and had a number of unmentioned bugs in it. To a large part, using Wonder at the same level (vs trying to understand what it is doing or fixing a problem) reduces the number of potential problem and occasions to pick up poor coding practices. At present there is no good tutorial or introductory level documentation. If there was, a much higher quality application could be built more quickly than without. Yes, there should be a core and then add more complex, specific technologies, so you can go in any particular direction as needed. WO has become a series of learning cliffs: first WO proper, then Wonder, then D2W, then the outlying parts of Wonder, then ERRest, then... WebObjects all in is HUGE. Add poorly or inconsistently documented to that and learning it is a problem we still struggle with. There is too much legacy technology for a volunteer community to deal with. Jobs has always been good at taking a mess and rationalising it, but I think for WO, there is nothing forcing Apple to do it. Nor any incentive to do so. Another Barton quote (about FORTRAN in 1963): a user-cult formed which is now quite effectively hampering progress in the adoption of improved scientific languages. :-) Chuck I like Bob Barton's quote (via Alan Kay I think) that Systems programmers are high priests of a low cult. Ian On 16 Nov 2010, at 13:29, Mike Schrag wrote: I think quickly has two interpretations ... There's quickly from knowing nothing about the technology and starting an app from scratch and there's quickly from understanding the technology and starting an app from scratch. If you interpret quickly as not knowing anything at ALL, it's probably faster to bootstrap a rails app. If you interpret quickly as understanding WO and just starting a new app from scratch, there are a lot of
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:20 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: I think an important distinction here is between expect people to use their systems and allow people to use their systems. Wonder largely falls in the second category. I made this because I found it interesting and you can use it if you want. Neither WO nor Wonder are now marketed products and there is little incentive to make them appear like they are. Wonder was marketed in the past?? I don't recall if it was ever sold or if it was always free. Back when netstruxr (however it was spelled) was the driving force behind it, there was more focus and someone promoting it. Now it is more like an overgrown garden. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: On 17 Nov 2010, at 11:43, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: One student in his experience report mentioned that professional programmers should spend extra time on making their stuff usable and easily installable if they are going to expect people to use their systems. Salient advice all around and I think he scored 100%. I think an important distinction here is between expect people to use their systems and allow people to use their systems. Wonder largely falls in the second category. I made this because I found it interesting and you can use it if you want. Neither WO nor Wonder are now marketed products and there is little incentive to make them appear like they are. Well I meant expect more in the sense of (cmd-ctrl-d) regarding something as likely to happen and from the Thesaurus in the anticipate sense, not the require or insist on sense. I understood what you meant. But it seems to me that most of what is in Wonder was really added from a perspective of you can use this if you want, if you don't then I don't care. Which explains the lack of documentation and tutorials. People are willing to share, but they don't have the time and resources to go out of their way to make it easy for you. If you want to know, read the code. A major reason for this is that most contributions come from a single person's efforts (meaning someone working alone). Everyone like to complain about documentation, but no one likes to write it. People use Rails, Django, and Pylons because they think they're cool. Don't know how to get that cool factor into WO. But removing each hurdle would help. Perhaps development on different platforms would help - if we wanted to teach WO, we couldn't because that would require students to go out and buy Macs (something we subtly encourage but don't 'expect'). I suspect that most people using WO don't care about the cool factor so they don't spend a lot of time trying to push it. Most of us have been around long enough to know to disbelieve stories of Technology X being a Silver Bullet. It seems to me that the driving forces behind technologies like Rails, Django, and Pylons tend to be younger or more idealistic (or is that fanatical?). I just don't have the energy for that. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe we are all too busy and too tired to go out and evangelize beyond adding to Wonder and presenting at WOWODC. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Le 2010-11-16 à 20:55, Chuck Hill a écrit : On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: On 17 Nov 2010, at 11:43, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: One student in his experience report mentioned that professional programmers should spend extra time on making their stuff usable and easily installable if they are going to expect people to use their systems. Salient advice all around and I think he scored 100%. I think an important distinction here is between expect people to use their systems and allow people to use their systems. Wonder largely falls in the second category. I made this because I found it interesting and you can use it if you want. Neither WO nor Wonder are now marketed products and there is little incentive to make them appear like they are. Well I meant expect more in the sense of (cmd-ctrl-d) regarding something as likely to happen and from the Thesaurus in the anticipate sense, not the require or insist on sense. I understood what you meant. But it seems to me that most of what is in Wonder was really added from a perspective of you can use this if you want, if you don't then I don't care. Which explains the lack of documentation and tutorials. People are willing to share, but they don't have the time and resources to go out of their way to make it easy for you. If you want to know, read the code. A major reason for this is that most contributions come from a single person's efforts (meaning someone working alone). Everyone like to complain about documentation, but no one likes to write it. People use Rails, Django, and Pylons because they think they're cool. Don't know how to get that cool factor into WO. But removing each hurdle would help. Perhaps development on different platforms would help - if we wanted to teach WO, we couldn't because that would require students to go out and buy Macs (something we subtly encourage but don't 'expect'). I suspect that most people using WO don't care about the cool factor so they don't spend a lot of time trying to push it. Most of us have been around long enough to know to disbelieve stories of Technology X being a Silver Bullet. It seems to me that the driving forces behind technologies like Rails, Django, and Pylons tend to be younger or more idealistic (or is that fanatical?). I just don't have the energy for that. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe we are all too busy and too tired to go out and evangelize beyond adding to Wonder and presenting at WOWODC. And maybe because it's only a very small group of people who try to do some marketing. Counting the time I took to cleanup the wiki, WOWODC organization, WOWODC presentations, wocommunity.org, mailing lists, etc., I have spent more than 250 hours this year on community stuff. And I'm starting to think that those 250 hours were wasted... -- Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca AIM/iChat : MacTICanada LinkedIn : http://www.linkedin.com/in/macti Twitter : pascal_robert ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On Nov 16, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 2010-11-16 à 20:55, Chuck Hill a écrit : I suspect that most people using WO don't care about the cool factor so they don't spend a lot of time trying to push it. Most of us have been around long enough to know to disbelieve stories of Technology X being a Silver Bullet. It seems to me that the driving forces behind technologies like Rails, Django, and Pylons tend to be younger or more idealistic (or is that fanatical?). I just don't have the energy for that. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe we are all too busy and too tired to go out and evangelize beyond adding to Wonder and presenting at WOWODC. And maybe because it's only a very small group of people who try to do some marketing. Counting the time I took to cleanup the wiki, WOWODC organization, WOWODC presentations, wocommunity.org, mailing lists, etc., I have spent more than 250 hours this year on community stuff. And I'm starting to think that those 250 hours were wasted... I would not exactly say wasted, but... the community does seem lethargic. Or apathetic. If half of the number of people who complained about missing or poor X spent 20 hours making some co-ordinated improvements, things would be a lot better. I don't know how to make that happen. For one, it requires someone with a vision who can do the co-ordination. If we had that, and a road map, that might attract people to pitch in and do something. Or not. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Hi Chuck and Pascal; ...and a road map, that might attract people to pitch in and do something. Or not. Without wanting to start a long thread on the matter, I imagine that any level of transparency on the future of this technology would improve the level of community involvement. cheers. -- Andrew Lindesay www.silvereye.co.nz ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On Nov 16, 2010, at 7:12 PM, Andrew Lindesay wrote: Hi Chuck and Pascal; ...and a road map, that might attract people to pitch in and do something. Or not. Without wanting to start a long thread on the matter, I imagine that any level of transparency on the future of this technology would improve the level of community involvement. What there is a the lack of a plan. I don't think there is a lack of transparency. You can see what there is just fine! :-P But, yeah, I can't see how this could possibly make it any worse. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Consuming SOAP (mmm, delicious)
Hi Lon, On Nov 16, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Lon Varscsak wrote: I've never worked with SOAP before, definitely with XML and REST apis. Is there a good example of how to generate a SOAP request and process the results. If you're doing SOAP and WO, you might be tempted to use Axis since that is what WOWebServices is based on. If you are using Java 6, I would recommend the built in JAX-WS stuff. Even if you are still on Java 5, the jars are available separately. If you haven't used SOAP before, the process is fairly straightforward. You start with the wsdl and the 'wsimport' command on the command line. wsimport is a code generator. It will parse the WSDL and the XSD schema files and produce java code you use to interact with the web service. Once you've generated your code, you find your service class(es) and use them to produce your portType interface(s). (the service class will subclass javax.xml.ws.Service). The port type will provide the methods you use to execute the service. The input/output classes are also generated for you, so the whole time, you're just working with POJOs. A very brief example: http://www.javadb.com/create-a-web-service-client-with-jax-ws Some of the nicer features of JAX-WS: It uses all the nice Java 5 stuff like generics and typesafe enums when it generates, which is something you don't get with old Axis web service code generation. If you don't want to handle threading, you can have it generate callbacks. You can also specify bindings and provide data converters so your service code uses the classes you want (ex. use NSTimestamps instead of java.util.Date). You may find you *have* to use the bindings if you have badly named enums though, since the wsimport tool seems to just pretend they don't exist if it can't name them (^_^) Do WO and/or WOnder have any magic for this? I don't think Wonder does any SOAP, just REST. For WOWebServices stuff, you can find documentation on it here: http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/#documentation/WebObjects/Web_Services/Index.html It is next to useless for consuming web services though, so it's probably not what you need. Ramsey Any help in pointing me in the right direction would be of great help. Thanks, Lon ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
The best marketing is making a better product - either technically or with improved documentation, accessibility, etc. I know that's wrong, at least as far as marketers are concerned. Marketeers are like lawyers - they get paid to defend people and make them look their best even if they are guilty. So a lot of shoddy products pay heaps to marketeers to make them look good. Problem is that must be a cheaper/more effective strategy than actually putting in the technical effort. I don't think your hours were wasted Pascal. Ian On 17 Nov 2010, at 13:33, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 2010-11-16 à 20:55, Chuck Hill a écrit : On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: On 17 Nov 2010, at 11:43, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: One student in his experience report mentioned that professional programmers should spend extra time on making their stuff usable and easily installable if they are going to expect people to use their systems. Salient advice all around and I think he scored 100%. I think an important distinction here is between expect people to use their systems and allow people to use their systems. Wonder largely falls in the second category. I made this because I found it interesting and you can use it if you want. Neither WO nor Wonder are now marketed products and there is little incentive to make them appear like they are. Well I meant expect more in the sense of (cmd-ctrl-d) regarding something as likely to happen and from the Thesaurus in the anticipate sense, not the require or insist on sense. I understood what you meant. But it seems to me that most of what is in Wonder was really added from a perspective of you can use this if you want, if you don't then I don't care. Which explains the lack of documentation and tutorials. People are willing to share, but they don't have the time and resources to go out of their way to make it easy for you. If you want to know, read the code. A major reason for this is that most contributions come from a single person's efforts (meaning someone working alone). Everyone like to complain about documentation, but no one likes to write it. People use Rails, Django, and Pylons because they think they're cool. Don't know how to get that cool factor into WO. But removing each hurdle would help. Perhaps development on different platforms would help - if we wanted to teach WO, we couldn't because that would require students to go out and buy Macs (something we subtly encourage but don't 'expect'). I suspect that most people using WO don't care about the cool factor so they don't spend a lot of time trying to push it. Most of us have been around long enough to know to disbelieve stories of Technology X being a Silver Bullet. It seems to me that the driving forces behind technologies like Rails, Django, and Pylons tend to be younger or more idealistic (or is that fanatical?). I just don't have the energy for that. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe we are all too busy and too tired to go out and evangelize beyond adding to Wonder and presenting at WOWODC. And maybe because it's only a very small group of people who try to do some marketing. Counting the time I took to cleanup the wiki, WOWODC organization, WOWODC presentations, wocommunity.org, mailing lists, etc., I have spent more than 250 hours this year on community stuff. And I'm starting to think that those 250 hours were wasted... -- Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca AIM/iChat : MacTICanada LinkedIn : http://www.linkedin.com/in/macti Twitter : pascal_robert ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
WebObjects has been where it is since Apple's acquisition of NeXT. NeXT was banking on WebObjects as its future, just like BEA WebLogic, SliverStream, blah blah. WebObjects was $50K per CPU. NeXT had a large enterprise sales force for WebObjects and there was a large consulting business around it. Apple is a consumer integrated computing platform company. It is the largest music retailer in the world. It's market capitalization is HUGE, one of the largest corporations in the world. WebObjects as a PRODUCT does not fit into that world. WebObjects as a competitive advantage to Apple in its IT infrastructure is a HUGE. WebObjects SAP adaptor allowed Apple to integrate the Apple Store with its trading partners to give us instantaneous feed back on where our orders are in the world. WebObjects is tightly integrated with every major system in Apple today. Is Apple incentivized to upgrade the docs, or provide what ever you/we are asking for? NOT AT ALL. Even at its peak, NeXT was doing $50M per year. That's like a couple of hours on the Apple online stores? So Apple does not really care if we on the outside use their internal framework. The only reason they would care is that they need more WO developers. All the upgrades to WOnder that's happened recently, where did that come from? If certain people at certain companies did not get support from a certain fruit company financially, would there have been all these upgrades and new capabilities? Everywhere I have gone professionally, WebObjects typically followed. AT K12, I built one of the largest WebObjects dev shops outside of Apple. They have lots of WebObjects Apps that I personally designed and help build. We re-trained several developers from other technologies, J2EE, C#, VisualBasic, etc. They are all highly functional WO developers now. Could having better documentation help, sure. But from the start WebObjects was like this. All the talk about the demise of WebObjects is ridiculous. Apple will continue to use it internally. Real developers all know how hard it would be to parallel track an entire development effort to replace any technology that's in production. There's no way that Steve would authorize the replacement of Apple Store, iTunes Music Store, etc. etc. without WebObjects falling all over itself. If Apple does not replace WebObjects internally, then WebObjects will not die. Could we in the outside world do better at coordinating the enhancements to WOnder? Sure... But really the answer is that if we are able to make money using WebObjects, we should be prepared to give back to the community. Like when I got K12 to support WONOVA, which continues today. Without financial support or incentives from ongoing companies, it is very difficult to ask people to fully volunteer to improve the Wonder project. So lets not ask what WebObjects can do for us, and ask what we can do for WebObjects. Sorry for the Rant. Paul On Nov 16, 2010, at 11:04 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: The best marketing is making a better product - either technically or with improved documentation, accessibility, etc. I know that's wrong, at least as far as marketers are concerned. Marketeers are like lawyers - they get paid to defend people and make them look their best even if they are guilty. So a lot of shoddy products pay heaps to marketeers to make them look good. Problem is that must be a cheaper/more effective strategy than actually putting in the technical effort. I don't think your hours were wasted Pascal. Ian ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Definitely not wasted time. I pushed really hard and got my company to give us the go ahead on WO this year. It was a hard enough sell to begin with, but if there was no one updating anything, it would be even worse. The more active the community is, the more alive WO stays. By letting things go you signal defeat. I look forward to helping more as soon as I know what I'm talking about. :) -Mike On Nov 16, 2010, at 9:33 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 2010-11-16 à 20:55, Chuck Hill a écrit : On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: On 17 Nov 2010, at 11:43, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: One student in his experience report mentioned that professional programmers should spend extra time on making their stuff usable and easily installable if they are going to expect people to use their systems. Salient advice all around and I think he scored 100%. I think an important distinction here is between expect people to use their systems and allow people to use their systems. Wonder largely falls in the second category. I made this because I found it interesting and you can use it if you want. Neither WO nor Wonder are now marketed products and there is little incentive to make them appear like they are. Well I meant expect more in the sense of (cmd-ctrl-d) regarding something as likely to happen and from the Thesaurus in the anticipate sense, not the require or insist on sense. I understood what you meant. But it seems to me that most of what is in Wonder was really added from a perspective of you can use this if you want, if you don't then I don't care. Which explains the lack of documentation and tutorials. People are willing to share, but they don't have the time and resources to go out of their way to make it easy for you. If you want to know, read the code. A major reason for this is that most contributions come from a single person's efforts (meaning someone working alone). Everyone like to complain about documentation, but no one likes to write it. People use Rails, Django, and Pylons because they think they're cool. Don't know how to get that cool factor into WO. But removing each hurdle would help. Perhaps development on different platforms would help - if we wanted to teach WO, we couldn't because that would require students to go out and buy Macs (something we subtly encourage but don't 'expect'). I suspect that most people using WO don't care about the cool factor so they don't spend a lot of time trying to push it. Most of us have been around long enough to know to disbelieve stories of Technology X being a Silver Bullet. It seems to me that the driving forces behind technologies like Rails, Django, and Pylons tend to be younger or more idealistic (or is that fanatical?). I just don't have the energy for that. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe we are all too busy and too tired to go out and evangelize beyond adding to Wonder and presenting at WOWODC. And maybe because it's only a very small group of people who try to do some marketing. Counting the time I took to cleanup the wiki, WOWODC organization, WOWODC presentations, wocommunity.org, mailing lists, etc., I have spent more than 250 hours this year on community stuff. And I'm starting to think that those 250 hours were wasted... -- Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca AIM/iChat : MacTICanada LinkedIn : http://www.linkedin.com/in/macti Twitter : pascal_robert ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mgargano%40me.com This email sent to mgarg...@me.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On 17/11/2010, at 1:31 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: And maybe because it's only a very small group of people who try to do some marketing. Counting the time I took to cleanup the wiki, WOWODC organization, WOWODC presentations, wocommunity.org, mailing lists, etc., I have spent more than 250 hours this year on community stuff. And I'm starting to think that those 250 hours were wasted... I would not exactly say wasted, but... the community does seem lethargic. Or apathetic. I'm not sure I would completely agree. I think it's largely a critical mass issue. I used to be moderately involved in a few of the FreeBSD mailing lists, for example, and the _proportions_ of people playing the various roles are about the same, but the communities differ in size by probably a couple of orders of magnitude. If we were the size of FreeBSD, we'd have 10 Pascals, and we'd be rocking. -- Paul. http://logicsquad.net/ ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On Nov 16, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Michael Gargano wrote: Definitely not wasted time. I pushed really hard and got my company to give us the go ahead on WO this year. It was a hard enough sell to begin with, but if there was no one updating anything, it would be even worse. The more active the community is, the more alive WO stays. By letting things go you signal defeat. I look forward to helping more as soon as I know what I'm talking about. :) Not knowing what you are talking about can be helpful too. Let's say you go to the Wiki to see how to run your app through Apache. You find 3 or 4 pages of contradictory, confusing, and overlapping information. Having that documented somewhere as a To Fix is more valuable than 10 people finding the same situation and doing nothing. Once you know something well enough, it is easier to ignore or overlook problems like this. Maybe we need a Jira space setup for the Wiki? Chuck On Nov 16, 2010, at 9:33 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 2010-11-16 à 20:55, Chuck Hill a écrit : On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: On 17 Nov 2010, at 11:43, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: One student in his experience report mentioned that professional programmers should spend extra time on making their stuff usable and easily installable if they are going to expect people to use their systems. Salient advice all around and I think he scored 100%. I think an important distinction here is between expect people to use their systems and allow people to use their systems. Wonder largely falls in the second category. I made this because I found it interesting and you can use it if you want. Neither WO nor Wonder are now marketed products and there is little incentive to make them appear like they are. Well I meant expect more in the sense of (cmd-ctrl-d) regarding something as likely to happen and from the Thesaurus in the anticipate sense, not the require or insist on sense. I understood what you meant. But it seems to me that most of what is in Wonder was really added from a perspective of you can use this if you want, if you don't then I don't care. Which explains the lack of documentation and tutorials. People are willing to share, but they don't have the time and resources to go out of their way to make it easy for you. If you want to know, read the code. A major reason for this is that most contributions come from a single person's efforts (meaning someone working alone). Everyone like to complain about documentation, but no one likes to write it. People use Rails, Django, and Pylons because they think they're cool. Don't know how to get that cool factor into WO. But removing each hurdle would help. Perhaps development on different platforms would help - if we wanted to teach WO, we couldn't because that would require students to go out and buy Macs (something we subtly encourage but don't 'expect'). I suspect that most people using WO don't care about the cool factor so they don't spend a lot of time trying to push it. Most of us have been around long enough to know to disbelieve stories of Technology X being a Silver Bullet. It seems to me that the driving forces behind technologies like Rails, Django, and Pylons tend to be younger or more idealistic (or is that fanatical?). I just don't have the energy for that. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe we are all too busy and too tired to go out and evangelize beyond adding to Wonder and presenting at WOWODC. And maybe because it's only a very small group of people who try to do some marketing. Counting the time I took to cleanup the wiki, WOWODC organization, WOWODC presentations, wocommunity.org, mailing lists, etc., I have spent more than 250 hours this year on community stuff. And I'm starting to think that those 250 hours were wasted... -- Pascal Robert prob...@macti.ca AIM/iChat : MacTICanada LinkedIn : http://www.linkedin.com/in/macti Twitter : pascal_robert ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mgargano%40me.com This email sent to mgarg...@me.com -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On Nov 16, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Paul D Yu wrote: All the upgrades to WOnder that's happened recently, where did that come from? If certain people at certain companies did not get support from a certain fruit company financially, would there have been all these upgrades and new capabilities? I don't think that is true. Certainly they have supported a lot of what has happened to WOLips. And ModernLook for D2W. And I am grateful for the support. But several people have made significant contributions without any funding support that I am aware of. Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On Nov 16, 2010, at 9:06 PM, Paul Hoadley wrote: On 17/11/2010, at 1:31 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: And maybe because it's only a very small group of people who try to do some marketing. Counting the time I took to cleanup the wiki, WOWODC organization, WOWODC presentations, wocommunity.org, mailing lists, etc., I have spent more than 250 hours this year on community stuff. And I'm starting to think that those 250 hours were wasted... I would not exactly say wasted, but... the community does seem lethargic. Or apathetic. I'm not sure I would completely agree. I think it's largely a critical mass issue. I used to be moderately involved in a few of the FreeBSD mailing lists, for example, and the _proportions_ of people playing the various roles are about the same, but the communities differ in size by probably a couple of orders of magnitude. If we were the size of FreeBSD, we'd have 10 Pascals, and we'd be rocking. There is a lot of truth in that. However, we are not going to get the numbers unless we improve the non-technical infrastructure. Which leaves us rather stuck. We need to get more out of who we have to get more people involved. Why don't more WO developers do something to help make things better? What can the rest of us do to make them want to? Are those the questions we should be asking? Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
On 17/11/2010, at 4:04 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: Maybe we need a Jira space setup for the Wiki? I think that's a great idea. Sometimes I know how to fix the Wiki when there is incorrect, stale or contradictory information, so I jump in and do it. Other times, I know something is wrong, but I don't know what to do about it. Opening a JIRA ticket seems preferable to doing nothing in the latter situation. -- Paul. http://logicsquad.net/ ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: WebObjects scalability question - WOSession?
Possibly. Another thing I think the community needs (I think I put this in the survey) is a structured set of video tutorials that take you through learning WO and Wonder. I'm hanging in there, but there is so much stuff, half the time I tell myself I know someone must have made doing this easier, but I don't know where to start looking. If we have video instruction, people would be able to get most of the major WO/Wonder ideas in a few days and have broader overview. The way things stand now, there's a lot of basic tutorials and all the other videos let you drink from the fire hose. Most of the time unless you know something about the topic in the video, you're already lost. If you look at a video learning site like vtc.com, I think short 5 min. self-paced tutorials made against a structured learning path would be hugely beneficial to the community. The next step after that needs to be some kind of marketing campaign. Get the word out there about all the great stuff that WO has to offer modern day developers and see if we can get posts on places like slashdot, macrumors, etc. That's the way modern technologies gain traction. Someone posts a blurb, people look into out of curiosity and if it's good, it catches on. Everyone today thinks WO is dead and that needs to change. Companies and independent consultants don't want to take a chance on technology they don't think they can get help for because the community is small and shrinking. That's why I think this membership fee could be really great for the community as it could fund wocommunity as a knowledge depot/public face of modern WO. My 2 cents as a recent outsider looking in. Feel free to flame me. :) There's a lot of great stuff working for the community here. We just need to lower the barrier to entry and point people toward the door. -Mike On Nov 17, 2010, at 12:34 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 16, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Michael Gargano wrote: Definitely not wasted time. I pushed really hard and got my company to give us the go ahead on WO this year. It was a hard enough sell to begin with, but if there was no one updating anything, it would be even worse. The more active the community is, the more alive WO stays. By letting things go you signal defeat. I look forward to helping more as soon as I know what I'm talking about. :) Not knowing what you are talking about can be helpful too. Let's say you go to the Wiki to see how to run your app through Apache. You find 3 or 4 pages of contradictory, confusing, and overlapping information. Having that documented somewhere as a To Fix is more valuable than 10 people finding the same situation and doing nothing. Once you know something well enough, it is easier to ignore or overlook problems like this. Maybe we need a Jira space setup for the Wiki? Chuck On Nov 16, 2010, at 9:33 PM, Pascal Robert wrote: Le 2010-11-16 à 20:55, Chuck Hill a écrit : On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: On 17 Nov 2010, at 11:43, Chuck Hill wrote: On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Ian Joyner wrote: One student in his experience report mentioned that professional programmers should spend extra time on making their stuff usable and easily installable if they are going to expect people to use their systems. Salient advice all around and I think he scored 100%. I think an important distinction here is between expect people to use their systems and allow people to use their systems. Wonder largely falls in the second category. I made this because I found it interesting and you can use it if you want. Neither WO nor Wonder are now marketed products and there is little incentive to make them appear like they are. Well I meant expect more in the sense of (cmd-ctrl-d) regarding something as likely to happen and from the Thesaurus in the anticipate sense, not the require or insist on sense. I understood what you meant. But it seems to me that most of what is in Wonder was really added from a perspective of you can use this if you want, if you don't then I don't care. Which explains the lack of documentation and tutorials. People are willing to share, but they don't have the time and resources to go out of their way to make it easy for you. If you want to know, read the code. A major reason for this is that most contributions come from a single person's efforts (meaning someone working alone). Everyone like to complain about documentation, but no one likes to write it. People use Rails, Django, and Pylons because they think they're cool. Don't know how to get that cool factor into WO. But removing each hurdle would help. Perhaps development on different platforms would help - if we wanted to teach WO, we couldn't because that would require students to go out and buy Macs (something we subtly encourage but don't 'expect'). I suspect that most people using WO don't
