Re: [libreoffice-website] Too much emphasys on donation?
Hello Pedro, On 2 avril 2014 00:09:12 CEST, Pedro pedl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all Apparently some users feel obligated and compelled to donate in order to be able to download. http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/29380/how-can-you-say-its-free-when-theres-no-way-to-get-rid-of-the-money-amounts/ http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/23053/why-cant-i-even-start-a-download-i-donated-the-default-amount/ One is actually offering to PAY to skip the donation page on each update http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/32239/donation-methods/ That is a bit strange since you do not have to pay anything to download LibreOffice. Besides LibreOffice is gree as in speech before being free as in beer as FOSS is about freedom but not price. Anyway... Please look at the download page (which is by coincidence entitled Donate...) http://donate.libreoffice.org/home/dl/win-x86/4.2.2/en-US/LibreOffice_4.2.2_Win_x86.msi It's a whole page about Donation with a small link to the built-in Help... Two things here. You can reach the download page, click on the main link and the download starts but in the mean time tje donation page appears. On its side there is a button to download the built in help. What id wrong with that? For a Free Open Source software from a Foundation whose goal is to to eliminate the digital divide in society by giving everyone access to office productivity tools free of charge don't you think that there is too much pressure on users to donate??? No. We rely on these donations to ensure the project and the foundation works. What is pressure is to force people to pay hundreds of dollars or euros for a proprietary office suite and make them believe that is their only choice. Another pressure is to complain that we are never 100% compatible with closed formats and that it is our fault. Apparently some users feel that... Maybe the page needs a re-design? 1. This is the same mecanism as with the old website 2. Anybody could provide his or her feedback on the new website specs. 3. There will always be some disgruntled users. 4. Personal comment: I have yet to see a post from you that does not look like a rant. But then I cannot do much about it. Best, Charles. Just my 2 cents -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Too-much-emphasys-on-donation-tp4103755.html Sent from the Website mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: website+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Too much emphasys on donation?
For what it's worth, here is what the donation pages clearly states upfront and not in footer notes: [...] Your donation, which is purely optional, [..] in big fat green characters. it also states: Your download LibreOffice_4.2.2_MacOS_x86-64.dmg should begin shortly. Please click the link in case it doesn't start. So far it is worth noting we have received very few complaints about this. Best, Charles. On 2 avril 2014 08:20:51 CEST, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hello Pedro, On 2 avril 2014 00:09:12 CEST, Pedro pedl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all Apparently some users feel obligated and compelled to donate in order to be able to download. http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/29380/how-can-you-say-its-free-when-theres-no-way-to-get-rid-of-the-money-amounts/ http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/23053/why-cant-i-even-start-a-download-i-donated-the-default-amount/ One is actually offering to PAY to skip the donation page on each update http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/32239/donation-methods/ That is a bit strange since you do not have to pay anything to download LibreOffice. Besides LibreOffice is gree as in speech before being free as in beer as FOSS is about freedom but not price. Anyway... Please look at the download page (which is by coincidence entitled Donate...) http://donate.libreoffice.org/home/dl/win-x86/4.2.2/en-US/LibreOffice_4.2.2_Win_x86.msi It's a whole page about Donation with a small link to the built-in Help... Two things here. You can reach the download page, click on the main link and the download starts but in the mean time tje donation page appears. On its side there is a button to download the built in help. What id wrong with that? For a Free Open Source software from a Foundation whose goal is to to eliminate the digital divide in society by giving everyone access to office productivity tools free of charge don't you think that there is too much pressure on users to donate??? No. We rely on these donations to ensure the project and the foundation works. What is pressure is to force people to pay hundreds of dollars or euros for a proprietary office suite and make them believe that is their only choice. Another pressure is to complain that we are never 100% compatible with closed formats and that it is our fault. Apparently some users feel that... Maybe the page needs a re-design? 1. This is the same mecanism as with the old website 2. Anybody could provide his or her feedback on the new website specs. 3. There will always be some disgruntled users. 4. Personal comment: I have yet to see a post from you that does not look like a rant. But then I cannot do much about it. Best, Charles. Just my 2 cents -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Too-much-emphasys-on-donation-tp4103755.html Sent from the Website mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: website+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: website+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Too much emphasys on donation?
Op 2 apr. 2014 08:20 schreef Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org: 4. Personal comment: I have yet to see a post from you that does not look like a rant. But then I cannot do much about it. I'm sorry about that. Your conservative point of view, to keep the current state as it is, is not bad and appreciated. Your arguments do make sense too. But to feel personally attacked or categorise feedback like this as rant is a bridge to far. I agree with the mentioned comments and advice from Pedro and Robinson. Am I now member to the rant-club to :)? Please don't forget we all have the same goal for LibreOffice and its users. Kind regards, Joren -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: website+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Too much emphasys on donation?
Hello Joren, On 2 avril 2014 08:54:06 CEST, Joren DC jore...@libreoffice.org wrote: Op 2 apr. 2014 08:20 schreef Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org: 4. Personal comment: I have yet to see a post from you that does not look like a rant. But then I cannot do much about it. I'm sorry about that. Your conservative point of view, to keep the current state as it is, is not bad and appreciated. Your arguments do make sense too. But to feel personally attacked or categorise feedback like this as rant is a bridge to far. I agree with the mentioned comments and advice from Pedro and Robinson. Am I now member to the rant-club to :)? No. Critics and feedback are a normal part of our processes and we do all work for LibreOffice. But sometimes having only rants or nitpicks also displays a negative attitude. Looking at Pedro's posts all around I believe it would be difficult to find anything else aside that. That's what I meant. Best, Charles. Please don't forget we all have the same goal for LibreOffice and its users. Kind regards, Joren -- Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: website+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: Too much emphasys on donation?
Hello, thanks for the feedback, and let me shed some light to this from my point of view. The donation page as it is today, shown during the moment of download, is the result of some extensive research and discussion with other free software projects, and it has been very well received, not only from the donation side, but also from the way it outlines why we need financial support, and what we do with the money. Where we definitely have room for improvement, and it's in fact something on our todo list, is to provide some better graphical overview on how we spend the money, what projects and areas we cover - which is something that will also be featured in the upcoming annual report. As for the link to the financial reports, I have been using mail-archive.com as they, in contrast to our own archives, provide a search functionality. Sadly, it indeed seems we need to adjust the search string a bit, as Thorsten has been posting updated ledgers also after February 2013. ;-) Accounting has become much more work the last year, and I am very thankful to Thorsten for carrying the burden on the topic so far - his free time is spare as well, so ledgers take some time to be published. Since a few days, we have handed over the 2014 accounting to a professional accountant, and I expect we get timely reports from them, which we will then make public as well. Looking at the number of donations, and the number of questions we receive with regards to donations, the rate is fairly well below 1%. So I think we do not have a general problem with the page. Over time, we have gradually improved it in its design and wording, and it clearly states, in many languages, that donations are purely optional, that LibreOffice is free of charge, and also provides a link to the direct download in case something goes wrong. Like with several other pages - the mailing list unsubscription instructions, the fact that mailing lists posts are public, and the note that neither info@ nor our phone number are a support line - every now and then it happens people have issues and don't read what we write. When we are made aware of this, we help out, we explain, and - even if that is a pain accounting-wise and eats a chunk of time - generously refund donations if people have problems. I hope that sheds some light on the overall process. I think no matter what we do with the page, there will always be people who do not read even a highlighted text, which can lead to confusion, independent from how the page is designed or worded. I personally would not change the download mechanism for the reasons outlined - however, if you have concrete proposals on what to improve, on how the wording should be changed, I am more than happy to hear and incorporate them. Thanks, Florian -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: website+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] Re: Too much emphasys on donation?
Hi Charles Charles-H. Schulz wrote Looking at Pedro's posts all around I believe it would be difficult to find anything else aside that. That's what I meant. This post is about how other users perceive the download page. It is not even a problem that affects me. Regards, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Too-much-emphasys-on-donation-tp4103755p4103795.html Sent from the Website mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: website+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] Re: Too much emphasys on donation?
Hi Florian Thank you for the quick answer. Florian Effenberger wrote I personally would not change the download mechanism for the reasons outlined - however, if you have concrete proposals on what to improve, on how the wording should be changed, I am more than happy to hear and incorporate them. I think that Robinson's suggestion to make it a quite visible side bar while the focus is on the download itself makes sense. Still, I'm not a designer. That is why I suggested they should provide some feedback. My perception is that people who have donated don't like to be imposed... Maybe some sentence in the sense of If you have already donated, please disregard this. We appreciate your contribution,etc There are also questions about refund which I didn't even knew (until your post) it was possible (it is only mentioned in the bitcoin section) http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/23261/is-there-a-way-to-get-a-refund-of-my-donation/ I believe there is always room for improvement ;) Regards, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Too-much-emphasys-on-donation-tp4103755p4103800.html Sent from the Website mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: website+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: Too much emphasys on donation?
Hello, Pedro wrote on 2014-04-02 12:20: I think that Robinson's suggestion to make it a quite visible side bar while the focus is on the download itself makes sense. Still, I'm not a designer. That is why I suggested they should provide some feedback. if we have a concrete proposal, we can look at it. What I can tell is that since we have changed the timing of the donation request, we have received lots of positive feedback, people telling us - that despite the donation texts on the website before - they were not aware, and that it actually is a good idea to ask for donations while people do get the software. This is not different from what Wikipedia does when they run their campaigns - above the articles you find rather prominent text boxes asking for donations. So, my personal take is that of course improving the page and maybe editing the design for sure can be done, I just wouldn't change the overall process - it has proven to be working. And no matter what you change, you will always find someone who has issues with that. From time to time, there are still people saying I dislike the green or the name is stupid, so we can't make everyone happy. ;-) So far, the number of complaints is rather low, which tells me we have not been doing terribly wrong. My perception is that people who have donated don't like to be imposed... Maybe some sentence in the sense of If you have already donated, please disregard this. We appreciate your contribution,etc I wouldn't do so. On the opposite, many people are asking for options to have recurring donations, that's actually a demand, not by one, but by many (and we are looking into this). So telling them If you donated once, please don't donate anymore would turn that around. To me, it's all about understanding and explaining the software is free of charge, can be used without any obligation, but at the same time tell people that TDF solely relies on donations - otherwise they won't know, from where should they? People have a choice to not donate, to donate once, or to donate regularly. I think the current page has that explained quite well in balance, but if there's a concrete proposal, of course we can have a look at it - anything can be improved. :) There are also questions about refund which I didn't even knew (until your post) it was possible (it is only mentioned in the bitcoin section) http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/23261/is-there-a-way-to-get-a-refund-of-my-donation/ People can always contact us and we find a solution. What we should try to avoid is to refund anyone who experiences a bug. Refunding costs time and money, and produces more accounting work. So, if someone really didn't know he doesn't have to donate, or accidentially donated twice or the like, we of course refund. I just don't want to open the door to refunding if people are dissatisfied with anything. Imagine donors at Wikipedia would ask for a refund two months later, because they found a mistake in an article... I believe there is always room for improvement ;) I share your view here, and am happy to look at concrete proposals to what can be improved, of course. Florian -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: website+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Too much emphasys on donation?
Hi Pedro, *, On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 12:09 AM, Pedro pedl...@gmail.com wrote: [...] Please look at the download page (which is by coincidence entitled Donate...) http://donate.libreoffice.org/home/dl/win-x86/4.2.2/en-US/LibreOffice_4.2.2_Win_x86.msi That as Charles already mentioned is of course not the download page. This is the page you are directed to after triggering the download. This is where you get the main installer. Before seeing this page, you already had the big fat download buttons that should not pose any question as to what the result will be when you click one. I.e. you want the file, you'll get the file. It's a whole page about Donation with a small link to the built-in Help... The donation stuff is displayed *in addition* to your download. And as a convenience it also displays the optional downloads for the main installer you picked earlier, so you don't have to browse back to the download page to get the help and/or language packs. For a Free Open Source software from a Foundation whose goal is to to eliminate the digital divide in society by giving everyone access to office productivity tools free of charge don't you think that there is too much pressure on users to donate??? Stating clearly that any donation is optional, and starting the download automatically before a user has to press no, I don't want to donate or similar is not what I consider putting pressure on users. As Florian mentioned we now reduced the delay until the download is started (initially it was setup to allow the page to load completely before starting additional activity (i.e. sending the file to the browser). That should make it even more clear that donating is optional. Apparently some users feel that... Maybe the page needs a re-design? And here I chime in with the others: That maybe and redesign are easily requested, but when it comes to asking for concrete proposals, you hear the cicades chirp (that probably won't translate well) From my POV the way the donations are presented is not obtrusive. It doesn't block you from getting what you want. You don't have to click stuff away to start download, you're free to just ignore all of the donate page. As you mentioned people getting the donation request on an update as well: Then they already know that the download will start, without the need to pay anything, so I can understand that point even less. I don't see how a sidebar will help. The download page where you pick the version has focus *only* on the download, it doesn't tell a word about donations ciao Christian -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: website+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] Re: Too much emphasys on donation?
First of all, I always believed that the TDF is an open foundation and therefore CRITICISM SHOULD ALWAYS BE WELCOME because that is what makes the project improves. Imagine, if someone found a bug and did not report it because someone just decided that those who criticizes should not do it. Secondly, I also think that the design could be changed by, maybe, not redirect to the full Donate page but add a small widget in the page that invites users to donate. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Too-much-emphasys-on-donation-tp4103755p4103834.html Sent from the Website mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: website+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
