Richt-Text Editors (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?)
Hi Manuel! First, nice to meet you ... I hope your (born?) child is well - along with the mother. My best wishes to her! Am Montag, den 08.11.2010, 09:51 +0100 schrieb Manuel Schneider: > Hi Florian, > > FCKEditor is already disabled since Wednesday last week as per Stefan > Weigel's request. > > Concerning your argument for the WYSIWYG editor: > > I have ask for people to speak up if they need the editor. So far I have > not received a single person speaking up for itself in favour of the editor. I did :-) http://www.mail-archive.com/website@libreoffice.org/msg00856.html > The statistics I have provided you with speak the same language - only > one user of more than 200 using it. Two questions - using the editor, or enabling it to be the default? And, are we really sure that the people who currently work in the wiki are the target group for a rich-text editor? From my point-of-view, many of the users we want to address with this tool to contribute content didn't arrive yet. > Just because /we believe/ or /fear/ that we need one is a bad argument > for it. Correct. But this also means to giving it some serious thought - if removing/disabling it causes headaches, too. Cheers, Christoph > Am 08.11.2010 09:41, schrieb Florian Effenberger: > > Hi Andrea, > > > > Andrea Pescetti wrote on 2010-11-06 23.33: > >> In general I'm against WYSIWYG editors in MediaWiki also because they > >> often mangle code enough to make the "diff" function useless. But if you > >> know for sure that there are people who won't live without a WYSIWYG > >> editor, then I can't oppose it too much. I would, however, make it > >> disabled by default but then (since only knowledgeable people will know > >> where to find the option otherwise!) add a prominent "To enable > >> easy[/rich?] editing capabilities, click here" notice just above the > >> editing textarea. > > > > I can't prove, but I'm quite sure that we would lose a lot of possible > > contributors to the wiki if we disabled the WYSIWYG editor at all. I'm > > not limited to FCKeditor, I'm open for any solution, but WYSIWYG is > > mandatory, I fear. > > > > I however agree, that disabling it per default is a good idea, and > > showing a link on the editing page for people to enable the editor is a > > good idea. > > > > IMHO, this only requires one option in LocalSettings.php, > > riched_start_disable =1 or something like that. Manuel, could you maybe > > have a look? > > > > Thanks > > Florian > > > > -- > Regards > Manuel Schneider > > Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens > Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge > www.wikimedia.ch > -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi Manuel, Manuel Schneider wrote on 2010-11-08 09.51: FCKEditor is already disabled since Wednesday last week as per Stefan Weigel's request. thanks a lot! Just because /we believe/ or /fear/ that we need one is a bad argument for it. Sure, let's see what sort of feedback we get. The current choice (disabled by default, enable-able by user's choice) is a good one, I guess. Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, Am 08.11.2010 09:51, schrieb Manuel Schneider: > FCKEditor is already disabled since Wednesday last week as per > Stefan Weigel's request. More precisely: The Rich Editor is disabled by default, but... ... you call it up by one mouse click whenever you are editing and ... one can enable it persistently by setting a check box in ones profile. Stefan -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi Florian, FCKEditor is already disabled since Wednesday last week as per Stefan Weigel's request. Concerning your argument for the WYSIWYG editor: I have ask for people to speak up if they need the editor. So far I have not received a single person speaking up for itself in favour of the editor. The statistics I have provided you with speak the same language - only one user of more than 200 using it. Just because /we believe/ or /fear/ that we need one is a bad argument for it. /Manuel Am 08.11.2010 09:41, schrieb Florian Effenberger: Hi Andrea, Andrea Pescetti wrote on 2010-11-06 23.33: In general I'm against WYSIWYG editors in MediaWiki also because they often mangle code enough to make the "diff" function useless. But if you know for sure that there are people who won't live without a WYSIWYG editor, then I can't oppose it too much. I would, however, make it disabled by default but then (since only knowledgeable people will know where to find the option otherwise!) add a prominent "To enable easy[/rich?] editing capabilities, click here" notice just above the editing textarea. I can't prove, but I'm quite sure that we would lose a lot of possible contributors to the wiki if we disabled the WYSIWYG editor at all. I'm not limited to FCKeditor, I'm open for any solution, but WYSIWYG is mandatory, I fear. I however agree, that disabling it per default is a good idea, and showing a link on the editing page for people to enable the editor is a good idea. IMHO, this only requires one option in LocalSettings.php, riched_start_disable =1 or something like that. Manuel, could you maybe have a look? Thanks Florian -- Regards Manuel Schneider Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge www.wikimedia.ch -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi Andrea, Andrea Pescetti wrote on 2010-11-06 23.33: In general I'm against WYSIWYG editors in MediaWiki also because they often mangle code enough to make the "diff" function useless. But if you know for sure that there are people who won't live without a WYSIWYG editor, then I can't oppose it too much. I would, however, make it disabled by default but then (since only knowledgeable people will know where to find the option otherwise!) add a prominent "To enable easy[/rich?] editing capabilities, click here" notice just above the editing textarea. I can't prove, but I'm quite sure that we would lose a lot of possible contributors to the wiki if we disabled the WYSIWYG editor at all. I'm not limited to FCKeditor, I'm open for any solution, but WYSIWYG is mandatory, I fear. I however agree, that disabling it per default is a good idea, and showing a link on the editing page for people to enable the editor is a good idea. IMHO, this only requires one option in LocalSettings.php, riched_start_disable =1 or something like that. Manuel, could you maybe have a look? Thanks Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
On 04/11/2010 Florian Effenberger wrote: > believe me - we *NEED* a WYSIWYG editor, if we want large contributions > to the wiki (which we do). ;) Large in what sense? A large number of contributors or a few contributors making a large amount of work each? I would say that in the first case the many contributors can live with the standard editor (after all, paragraphs and basic lists are trivial, and for a small contribution you probably won't need more), and in the second one the contributors will be motivated enough to learn some syntax and only "power users" facing problems like the one Christoph mentioned (adding a column to a table) will have to endure some annoyances. In general I'm against WYSIWYG editors in MediaWiki also because they often mangle code enough to make the "diff" function useless. But if you know for sure that there are people who won't live without a WYSIWYG editor, then I can't oppose it too much. I would, however, make it disabled by default but then (since only knowledgeable people will know where to find the option otherwise!) add a prominent "To enable easy[/rich?] editing capabilities, click here" notice just above the editing textarea. Regards, Andrea. -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Do we need a WYSIWYG for the wiki ? (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?)
Hi Christoph, 2010/11/5 Christoph Noack : > Am Freitag, den 05.11.2010, 23:14 +0100 schrieb Volker Merschmann: >> Sorry Christoph, this was just my/our first guess that morning. >> It was a fault by somebody who copied text from the preview to the >> editor, see Stefan Weigels Mail on the list. > > Thanks for the hint ... but this makes it even more "less > problematic" :-) > > Please correct me, but ... shouldn't this be handled by the versioning > feature within the wiki. So if something weird happens, we can easily go > back to the previous content? > Nope. If a sysop or reviewer rolls back the page to a previous version because of technical faults, all the last content will be missed afterwards. Volker -- ++ Volker Merschmann - ODF-Software Contributor -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Do we need a WYSIWYG for the wiki ? (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?)
I love WYSIWYG editors, I will make that clear from the start. I don't know why, but I have real issues trying to understand wiki input format. I have noticed that when pasting into FCKEditor it only allows 'text' paste which may have been the reason you started seeing HTML tags as the person was pasting rich text. Is it possible to try the new ckEditor with the ability to paste rich text? This might fix the issues. On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: > Hi Volker! > > Am Freitag, den 05.11.2010, 23:14 +0100 schrieb Volker Merschmann: > > Sorry Christoph, this was just my/our first guess that morning. > > It was a fault by somebody who copied text from the preview to the > > editor, see Stefan Weigels Mail on the list. > > Thanks for the hint ... but this makes it even more "less > problematic" :-) > > Please correct me, but ... shouldn't this be handled by the versioning > feature within the wiki. So if something weird happens, we can easily go > back to the previous content? > > Cheers, > Christoph > > > -- > E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for > instructions on how to unsubscribe > List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ > All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Do we need a WYSIWYG for the wiki ? (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?)
Hi Volker! Am Freitag, den 05.11.2010, 23:14 +0100 schrieb Volker Merschmann: > Sorry Christoph, this was just my/our first guess that morning. > It was a fault by somebody who copied text from the preview to the > editor, see Stefan Weigels Mail on the list. Thanks for the hint ... but this makes it even more "less problematic" :-) Please correct me, but ... shouldn't this be handled by the versioning feature within the wiki. So if something weird happens, we can easily go back to the previous content? Cheers, Christoph -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Do we need a WYSIWYG for the wiki ? (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?)
Hi, 2010/11/5 Christoph Noack : > Am Freitag, den 05.11.2010, 22:50 +0100 schrieb Nino Novak: > Sorry, I don't see a valid point. Volker referred to Manuel in a > previous mail "misuse of the so-called FCKEditor can lead to these > mistakes". So it ends up being technological imperfection, nothing more. > Those limitations can be addressed by better processes or better > tooling. > Sorry Christoph, this was just my/our first guess that morning. It was a fault by somebody who copied text from the preview to the editor, see Stefan Weigels Mail on the list. Bye Volker -- ++ Volker Merschmann - ODF-Software Contributor -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Do we need a WYSIWYG for the wiki ? (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?)
Hi Nino! Am Freitag, den 05.11.2010, 22:50 +0100 schrieb Nino Novak: > Christoph, > > while I see your arguments, please try to see the problems with messed > up pages. I never messed up a page in the OpenOffice.org Wiki by using the rich-text editor. So why? :-) > So you save minutes to have better formatted tables while imposing hours > of work to others who have to fix broken pages. > > (I'm exaggerating a bit, I know, but please see the point I want to > make.) Sorry, I don't see a valid point. Volker referred to Manuel in a previous mail "misuse of the so-called FCKEditor can lead to these mistakes". So it ends up being technological imperfection, nothing more. Those limitations can be addressed by better processes or better tooling. > As for me, the people contributing most to the wiki [1] should decide. > And they should also decide who is in charge to fix broken pages ;-) >From my point-of-view, I'd rater like to talk about content being added and improved - instead of limiting the capabilities for the editors. But however, the rich-text editor is still there ... so I don't complain (too much) *g* Cheers, Christoph -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Do we need a WYSIWYG for the wiki ? (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?)
Hi, 2010/11/5 Stefan Weigel : > I personally would never use the WYSIWYG editor. I consider myself > as an average skilled user. > > Do other users need one or ask for one? I don´t know. > > However, I see Wikipedia without WYSIWYG and most Wikipedia authors > are definitely far away from being a hackers brain. ;-) > > Other examples, and quite compareable to us, are wiki.ubuntuusers.de > as well as the community wiki at ubuntu.com. They don´t have WYSIWYG > either. > > If a WYSIWYG editor is a risk to our content, I would recommend not > to have one. I´d rather recommend to use LibreOffice Writer and its > "Export to MediaWiki" functionality. :-) > I would second Stefan. A WYSIWYG-Editor is not needed, just a risk and we have to tidy up behind. Next 2c Volker -- ++ Volker Merschmann - ODF-Software Contributor -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Do we need a WYSIWYG for the wiki ? (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?)
Christoph, while I see your arguments, please try to see the problems with messed up pages. So you save minutes to have better formatted tables while imposing hours of work to others who have to fix broken pages. (I'm exaggerating a bit, I know, but please see the point I want to make.) As for me, the people contributing most to the wiki [1] should decide. And they should also decide who is in charge to fix broken pages ;-) N. [1] http://libreoffice.org/credits.html -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Do we need a WYSIWYG for the wiki ? (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?)
Hi all! The latest changes in the wiki made me a bit inefficient, so I both re-enabled the editor and also would like to add my thoughts here. Am Freitag, den 05.11.2010, 20:46 +0100 schrieb Stefan Weigel: > Hi Florian, *, > > Am 05.11.2010 17:05, schrieb Florian Effenberger: > > >> * There is currently no real WYSIWIG editor that works[1]. If there > >> were, Wikimedia would use it. > > > > I'm happy to hear other opinions, but IMHO we *NEED* a WYSIWYG > > editor. Many users will be very uncomfortable otherwise, so I'd even > > take the risk of slightly defective pages in favor of WYSIWYG. I use > > FCKEditor on another wiki of a customer, and it performs quite well. > > I'm for it, but that's just my take. ;) > > I personally would never use the WYSIWYG editor. I consider myself > as an average skilled user. > > Do other users need one or ask for one? I don´t know. Then do I :-) So why am I using a WYSIWYG editor: It is less about the WYSIWYG, but ... ... the different access to features. I work a lot with tables, because they provide easy access to structured data (being sortable etc.). Inserting tables is easy, but to e.g. adding another column within the table can you cost minutes fiddling in the source - the WYSIWYG editor provides a "two clicks solution". ... the better (visual) navigation on the page. Although I do understand the wiki syntax (and I edit the source quite often), I am still far away from the guys in the movie Matrix. [1] Some more things In an close-to-ideal world, a wiki features: * Something like a FCKEditor (2.6.4.1), ... * providing different outline levels for lists, ... * easier category handling, ... * more stable copy/paste functionality, ... * something like a Navigator, ... * active spell checking, ... * and larger buttons. Seems simple, or? :-) > However, I see Wikipedia without WYSIWYG and most Wikipedia authors > are definitely far away from being a hackers brain. ;-) > > Other examples, and quite compareable to us, are wiki.ubuntuusers.de > as well as the community wiki at ubuntu.com. They don´t have WYSIWYG > either. > > If a WYSIWYG editor is a risk to our content, I would recommend not > to have one. I´d rather recommend to use LibreOffice Writer and its > "Export to MediaWiki" functionality. :-) That works more or less when creating a page. But working on a page that gets changed quite regularly is rather impossible. Besides not having the pictures, missing > 2 ct, > > Stefan +2 ct Cheers, Christoph > -- > LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! :-))) -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi Marc, Am 05.11.2010 20:27, schrieb Marc Paré: > I would vote to find a working WYSIWYG editor. Voting for finding something, that does not exist, seems not very wise to me. :-) We´ve been told that there is currently no real WYSIWIG editor that works. I think, this is hard to beleive. But this is, what an expert says. And Wikipedia and others not having WYSIWYG seem to proof it. So, shall we discuss more about, what we think, that we need, but we can never get? ;-) Stefan. -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
On Friday 05 November 2010 20:27, Marc Paré wrote: > I would not go to Wiki-markup. Please read Manuals reply. It's not about supposed potential users but actual contributors. They predominantly seem to switch off the editor. So the editor should be disabled until a fixed version is found/installed. Nino EOD for me -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Do we need a WYSIWYG for the wiki ? (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?)
Hi Florian, *, Am 05.11.2010 17:05, schrieb Florian Effenberger: >> * There is currently no real WYSIWIG editor that works[1]. If there >> were, Wikimedia would use it. > > I'm happy to hear other opinions, but IMHO we *NEED* a WYSIWYG > editor. Many users will be very uncomfortable otherwise, so I'd even > take the risk of slightly defective pages in favor of WYSIWYG. I use > FCKEditor on another wiki of a customer, and it performs quite well. > I'm for it, but that's just my take. ;) I personally would never use the WYSIWYG editor. I consider myself as an average skilled user. Do other users need one or ask for one? I don´t know. However, I see Wikipedia without WYSIWYG and most Wikipedia authors are definitely far away from being a hackers brain. ;-) Other examples, and quite compareable to us, are wiki.ubuntuusers.de as well as the community wiki at ubuntu.com. They don´t have WYSIWYG either. If a WYSIWYG editor is a risk to our content, I would recommend not to have one. I´d rather recommend to use LibreOffice Writer and its "Export to MediaWiki" functionality. :-) 2 ct, Stefan -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, Am 05.11.2010 17:05, schrieb Florian Effenberger: Thanks for all your work! Despiste the professional recommendation, that I basically share, I fear we need the WYSIWYG editor. well, we are now starting to chewing arguments already stated over and over again. Let's make it simple: Don't speak for potential others, only speak of yourself. Who on this (or any other) list would not be able to work in the wiki if there weren't FCKEditor? Here I have some statistics for you: * while the FCKEditor is installed in the wiki, it is currently switched off by default * you can switch it explicitely on or off in the user preferences in the wiki * 11 (eleven) users have explicitely switched FCKEditor OFF * 1 (one) user have explicitely switched FCKEditor ON the rest (222 - 11 - 1 = 210) users go with the default (currently OFF) From my perspective I don't care wheter FCKEditor is switched on or off or if it is being used or not. I think I have made clear that I am not going to clean up garbage resulting by its usage or respond to any further complains about FCKEditor ;-). This said, I am off again for the next few days. You might have noticed that after an enthusiastic start my actions in the wiki stalled recently. This is not due to this discussion but because I have an emergency at our data centre and have to rescue a cluster of servers that dies on Wednesday night. I hardly got any sleep since then because I have to fix that issues ASAP, so that's why I push away everything else as far as I can. I'll be back latest after the weekend (not to mention that my second child is due to be born any minute now...). Regards, /Manuel -- Regards Manuel Schneider Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Wikimedia CH - Association for the advancement of free knowledge www.wikimedia.ch -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Le 2010-11-05 14:59, Nino Novak a écrit : Hi, On Friday 05 November 2010 17:05, Florian Effenberger wrote: I'm happy to hear other opinions, but IMHO we *NEED* a WYSIWYG editor. Many users will be very uncomfortable otherwise, so I'd even take the risk of slightly defective pages in favor of WYSIWYG. I'd like to argue with Manuel against a broken editor as it generates additional work. Without permanent watching and fixing, even content can be lost. If we go for pure Wiki-markup, what do we lose? Some pages might not look as nice as they would but nothing would be broken/lost. My personal opinion is clearly, better some correct but ugly pages than nice but broken. If really necessary, I'd even volunteer to help beginners tidying up markup ;-) But I'd not volunteer doing absloutely stupid work of fixing pages people have destroyed without noticing. You'll have to review any single edit then! A nightmare. * I don't see a big need for a real WYSIWYG editor. Wikimedia has found the biggest online community in the world, not even having the UsabilityInitiative improvements available for many years. I know my users. ;) Trust poeple! They might exceed your expectations :-) Nino I would not go to Wiki-markup. New users will look at the page, have no idea there is help and not contribute. We should offer a WYSIWYG editor of any kind that works as 100% of the membership can use it. Why would we reduce the contribution rate if we can find a fix? I would vote to find a working WYSIWYG editor. Marc -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, On Friday 05 November 2010 17:05, Florian Effenberger wrote: > I'm happy to hear other opinions, but IMHO we *NEED* a WYSIWYG > editor. Many users will be very uncomfortable otherwise, so I'd even > take the risk of slightly defective pages in favor of WYSIWYG. I'd like to argue with Manuel against a broken editor as it generates additional work. Without permanent watching and fixing, even content can be lost. If we go for pure Wiki-markup, what do we lose? Some pages might not look as nice as they would but nothing would be broken/lost. My personal opinion is clearly, better some correct but ugly pages than nice but broken. If really necessary, I'd even volunteer to help beginners tidying up markup ;-) But I'd not volunteer doing absloutely stupid work of fixing pages people have destroyed without noticing. You'll have to review any single edit then! A nightmare. > > * I don't see a big need for a real WYSIWYG editor. Wikimedia has > > found the biggest online community in the world, not even having > > the UsabilityInitiative improvements available for many years. > > I know my users. ;) Trust poeple! They might exceed your expectations :-) Nino -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi Manuel, first of all, thanks for all the time you invest, that's really much appreciated! Sorry for all the discussions and the burden we put on you. ;) Manuel Schneider wrote on 2010-11-05 09.16: I've never heard of CKEditor before, so I had to check. It is not in the SVN. But Google tells me that CKEditor is nothing but a never revision of FCKEditor - not a fork or different project, just a change of names. So maybe what I have in SVN under FCKeditor is this newer version. As there is no version information included in the codebase I can't tell which version it is. Oh, okay, good to know, thanks. Some basic thoughts about WYSIWYG in MediaWiki: * There is currently no real WYSIWIG editor that works[1]. If there were, Wikimedia would use it. I'm happy to hear other opinions, but IMHO we *NEED* a WYSIWYG editor. Many users will be very uncomfortable otherwise, so I'd even take the risk of slightly defective pages in favor of WYSIWYG. I use FCKEditor on another wiki of a customer, and it performs quite well. I'm for it, but that's just my take. ;) One of the first things I did in the TDF wiki was to integrate these extensions. They also bring the new editing toolbar (which is not WYSIWYG, but works smothly). Thanks a lot! However, I fear it is not enough for most users. :( As we want to encourage our users to use the wiki, we should provide more... * I don't see a big need for a real WYSIWYG editor. Wikimedia has found the biggest online community in the world, not even having the UsabilityInitiative improvements available for many years. I know my users. ;) Seriosly, while it took me an hour to clean up the Steering Commitee Meetings article, while it wouldn't have been any time investment if the article was written the right way in the first place. Not to mention the Main Pages I had to clean up the day before, and they are already crapped again. Thanks for all your work! Despiste the professional recommendation, that I basically share, I fear we need the WYSIWYG editor. What do others think? Thanks again, Manuel - great to have you in the boat! Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, Manuel Schneider wrote on 2010-11-05 08.01: We use the SVN version of the Wikimedia extensions, last "svn up" ran on November 3rd. does this mean CKeditor is included? Florain -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, Michael Wheatland wrote on 2010-11-04 12.56: I thought I better throw my 2cents in here. The WYSIWYG editor you are using is FCKEditor, it is very old, slow and sometimes buggy. The upgrade of FCKEditor is CKEditor, a complete rewrite of the old editor. Much faster and quite easy to install. Maybe updating the software is the answer. thanks for the note! Copying Manuel who may comment on that. ;-) Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi Bernhard 2010/11/4 Dr. Bernhard Dippold > > I disabled it in my user preferences, so I can use the MediaWiki syntax I > got used to at the OOo wiki site > (I know that is not, what the "normal user" wants, but I couldn't find out > in reasonable time how to position graphics beside text, create galleries > and such) > Ups, my bad :S Didn't see that option. Fixed! Preferences -> Edition -> Disable Rich Editor if anyone want to disable it too. Thanks! -- http://www.cjenkins.net/ http://csl-tec.softwarelibrecr.org/ -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
I thought I better throw my 2cents in here. The WYSIWYG editor you are using is FCKEditor, it is very old, slow and sometimes buggy. The upgrade of FCKEditor is CKEditor, a complete rewrite of the old editor. Much faster and quite easy to install. Maybe updating the software is the answer. -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Carlos, Sorry for skipping the "s"... :-( Here you get two of them: I wrote: > Hi Carlo, * \s > > Carlo Jenkins wrote: \s > [...] best regards bernhard (losing his "h" every now and then...) -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi Carlo, * Carlo Jenkins wrote: > 2010/11/4 Florian Effenberger > > > Hi, > > > > Volker Merschmann wrote on 2010-11-04 09.36: > > > > I pinged Manuel on IRC (he is always on) and he explained to me that > >> misuse of the so-called FCKEditor can lead to these mistakes. > >> He asks for permissuin to disable the FCKEditor. > >> > > > > basically, yes, but which WYSIWYG editor does he propose? We can *not* go > > without that, I fear. > > > :( > > Go MediaWiki pure syntax! jeje no, just kidding. But what would be fine that > the user could be able to configure if he want to use the WYSIWYG editor or > disable it on every edit. I had to disable the editor each time I want to > edit a page or after previewing the changes. MediaWiki can do that? I disabled it in my user preferences, so I can use the MediaWiki syntax I got used to at the OOo wiki site (I know that is not, what the "normal user" wants, but I couldn't find out in reasonable time how to position graphics beside text, create galleries and such) Best regards Bernhard -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
2010/11/4 Florian Effenberger > believe me - we *NEED* a WYSIWYG editor, if we want large contributions to > the wiki (which we do). ;) > Yes, I suppose we do :( What generated the problem on that page? I mean, yes, the editor, but what use or function or use method gave that problem? Do we know? Cheers -- http://www.cjenkins.net/ http://csl-tec.softwarelibrecr.org/ -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, Carlos Jenkins wrote on 2010-11-04 10.57: Actually I was looking at the code generated by the actual editor and is quite ugly... terrible indeed :S But I understand is difficult for users to write in mediawiki format... mmm... I see no solution here. Wikipedia has a very nice little, very little bar that inserts the tags on the text, instead of generating it a visually interpret them. There is no a little more complete editor with those features? Not generating, just inserting the tags? believe me - we *NEED* a WYSIWYG editor, if we want large contributions to the wiki (which we do). ;) Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi again, 2010/11/4 Volker Merschmann > He would recommend to do without a WYSIWYG editor as there is none > which works really. > Manuel said that this is the reason that the Wikipedia also hasn't > one. The best workin thing is the toolbar he added yesterday. > Actually I was looking at the code generated by the actual editor and is quite ugly... terrible indeed :S But I understand is difficult for users to write in mediawiki format... mmm... I see no solution here. Wikipedia has a very nice little, very little bar that inserts the tags on the text, instead of generating it a visually interpret them. There is no a little more complete editor with those features? Not generating, just inserting the tags? Cheers -- http://www.cjenkins.net/ http://csl-tec.softwarelibrecr.org/ -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi Carlos, Carlos Jenkins wrote on 2010-11-04 10.12: Go MediaWiki pure syntax! jeje no, just kidding. But what would be fine that the user could be able to configure if he want to use the WYSIWYG editor or disable it on every edit. I had to disable the editor each time I want to edit a page or after previewing the changes. MediaWiki can do that? you can configure that in your user settings. Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, Volker Merschmann wrote on 2010-11-04 10.24: He would recommend to do without a WYSIWYG editor as there is none which works really. Manuel said that this is the reason that the Wikipedia also hasn't one. The best workin thing is the toolbar he added yesterday. I'm against it - I know lots of people who are not comfortable with the MW syntax. However, why do the errors occur just now, and weren't visible previously? Does he have any idea? Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, 2010/11/4 Florian Effenberger : > Volker Merschmann wrote on 2010-11-04 09.36: >> >> I pinged Manuel on IRC (he is always on) and he explained to me that >> misuse of the so-called FCKEditor can lead to these mistakes. >> He asks for permissuin to disable the FCKEditor. > > basically, yes, but which WYSIWYG editor does he propose? We can *not* go > without that, I fear. > He would recommend to do without a WYSIWYG editor as there is none which works really. Manuel said that this is the reason that the Wikipedia also hasn't one. The best workin thing is the toolbar he added yesterday. Bye Volker -- ++ Volker Merschmann - ODF-Software Contributor -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
2010/11/4 Florian Effenberger > Hi, > > Volker Merschmann wrote on 2010-11-04 09.36: > > I pinged Manuel on IRC (he is always on) and he explained to me that >> misuse of the so-called FCKEditor can lead to these mistakes. >> He asks for permissuin to disable the FCKEditor. >> > > basically, yes, but which WYSIWYG editor does he propose? We can *not* go > without that, I fear. > :( Go MediaWiki pure syntax! jeje no, just kidding. But what would be fine that the user could be able to configure if he want to use the WYSIWYG editor or disable it on every edit. I had to disable the editor each time I want to edit a page or after previewing the changes. MediaWiki can do that? -- http://www.cjenkins.net/ http://csl-tec.softwarelibrecr.org/ -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, Volker Merschmann wrote on 2010-11-04 09.36: I pinged Manuel on IRC (he is always on) and he explained to me that misuse of the so-called FCKEditor can lead to these mistakes. He asks for permissuin to disable the FCKEditor. basically, yes, but which WYSIWYG editor does he propose? We can *not* go without that, I fear. Florian (currently on train, thus not on IRC) -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, (sorry this tends to be a topic for the website-list, but as it started here ...) 2010/11/4 Florian Effenberger : > Nino Novak wrote on 2010-11-04 09.24: > >> Do you still see strange things? For me, the page looks ok now. > > I do. After some links, there are lots of spaces, others are enclosed in > HTML tages. Still broken page for me. ;( > I pinged Manuel on IRC (he is always on) and he explained to me that misuse of the so-called FCKEditor can lead to these mistakes. He asks for permissuin to disable the FCKEditor. Volker -- ++ Volker Merschmann - ODF-Software Contributor -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, Nino Novak wrote on 2010-11-04 09.24: Do you still see strange things? For me, the page looks ok now. I do. After some links, there are lots of spaces, others are enclosed in HTML tages. Still broken page for me. ;( Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
On Thursday 04 November 2010 07:31, Florian Effenberger wrote: > Hello, > > the page at > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings > looks quite ugly now. Did someone screw it up, or is it a > configuration error? Do you still see strange things? For me, the page looks ok now. Nino -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, Volker Merschmann wrote on 2010-11-04 08.37: I've pinged Manuel through IRC. thanks! He activated the extended editor, maybe someone did not see that. Yes, but why does the editor modify existing pages? Thanks, Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi, 2010/11/4 Florian Effenberger : > I fixed some glitches I saw, but the problem has been there around 0720 this > morning for me. > I've pinged Manuel through IRC. He activated the extended editor, maybe someone did not see that. Bye Volker -- ++ Volker Merschmann - ODF-Software Contributor -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
I fixed some glitches I saw, but the problem has been there around 0720 this morning for me. Cor Nouws wrote on 2010-11-04 07.54: History shows this latest change # (huidig | vorige) 2010-11-04T06:29:15 Floeff (Overleg | bijdragen) (18.154 bytes) -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
History shows this latest change # (huidig | vorige) 2010-11-04T06:29:15 Floeff (Overleg | bijdragen) (18.154 bytes) Cor Nouws wrote (04-11-10 07:52) Florian Effenberger wrote (04-11-10 07:51) How do the links look like? Here they look really strange, for every link the URL is visible No just fine. The only tag I see is close at the bottom Steering Committee Meetings Cor Nouws wrote on 2010-11-04 07.50: I loaded it this morning around 6:15 and it was Ok then (still on my screen, did not refresh) -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
The first paragraph looks like Discussions of the href="http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/";>Steering Committee take place on public mailing lists. and upon first loading, the "edit" link is only visible for some paragraphs.. :( Cor Nouws wrote on 2010-11-04 07.52: No just fine. The only tag I see is close at the bottom Steering Committee Meetings -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Florian Effenberger wrote (04-11-10 07:51) How do the links look like? Here they look really strange, for every link the URL is visible No just fine. The only tag I see is close at the bottom Steering Committee Meetings Cor Nouws wrote on 2010-11-04 07.50: I loaded it this morning around 6:15 and it was Ok then (still on my screen, did not refresh) -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
How do the links look like? Here they look really strange, for every link the URL is visible Cor Nouws wrote on 2010-11-04 07.50: I loaded it this morning around 6:15 and it was Ok then (still on my screen, did not refresh) -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hi Florian, Florian Effenberger wrote (04-11-10 07:31) the page at http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings looks quite ugly now. Did someone screw it up, or is it a configuration error? I loaded it this morning around 6:15 and it was Ok then (still on my screen, did not refresh) Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 2:31 AM, Florian Effenberger < flo...@documentfoundation.org> wrote: > Hello, > > the page at > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings looks > quite ugly now. Did someone screw it up, or is it a configuration error? > i think some one has been misconfigured :-/ > > Florian > > -- > Florian Effenberger > Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation > Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 > Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff > > -- > E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for > instructions on how to unsubscribe > List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ > All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > -- Danishka Navin http://danishkanavin.blogspot.com http://twitter.com/danishkanavin http://identi.ca/danishka -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] ConfCall wiki page broken?
Hello, the page at http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings looks quite ugly now. Did someone screw it up, or is it a configuration error? Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/website/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
