Re: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
Hi David, thanks for the try ... although I know that time is running :-) (Now here comes my famous) But ... Am Montag, den 24.01.2011, 11:09 +0800 schrieb David Nelson: Hi Christoph, :-) I'm sorry, friend, but I've just been talking with Narayan about the options, and what you are suggesting would involve re-designing the whole IA. It will mess up everything and cause us numerous other problems to solve in other places. True. And, honestly, I don't really agree with your point about this anyway. Personally, I feel the Why pages are just fine where they are. The Why pages are not the big deal at the moment - although the position seems strange since Home is a different kind of page in comparison with the other ones. Here is an example what the Germans did a week (or so) ago - they added the top-level link Anwender (Users/ Usage) to the page: http://de.libreoffice.org/anwender/ To be honest, I'm more worried about the menu behavior as I pointed out earlier. I fear that some users will get confused - so I'd like to ask you to consider this if the dust settles a bit. I'd like to solve that issue with you, Ivan and all the other guys here. And by the way, I've asked Ivan if there is an easy solution to tweak the highlighting. Unfortunately ... not :-\ We have other things to get done urgently to get the site properly ready, and I'm afraid I just don't have time for this. It is not the right time, mate, sorry. :-( We need to be happy that the site exists, and that it's looking clean, and that there is valuable information and content for our users. True :-) And I'm sure that you also have more important things to focus on: icons, the new design team members, etc... Oh, it is like in the blog posting by Florian - it's hard to find the right priority for all these tasks :-) Here, I'd like to make sure that most people are not only happy with the content, but also with the navigation. The more users can effortless navigate the pages, the more downloads, the more supporters, the more ... Anyway, I hope you understand my POV and don't feel badly about it. Concerning the latter: no. Since I know that you also have to focus on several things at the same time. But I feel free to bother you again very soon, since it's still an issue :-) Okay? Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
:) Since I am a related party, I'll jump in. The IA and wireframe (aka page layout) were supposed to be frozen long ago after vigorous reviews, no? :) Last-minute changes in these fundamental aspects are not easy. But we SHOULD do that review (maybe as soon as next week?) David and I believe that this is the get things DONE phase. After the release, we will easily switch to get things RIGHT mode. Hope everyone agrees. Back to work, now- everyone! There's no time to lose! :) -Narayan Subject: Re: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...]) From: christ...@dogmatux.com To: website@libreoffice.org Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 23:00:26 +0100 Hi David, thanks for the try ... although I know that time is running :-) (Now here comes my famous) But ... Am Montag, den 24.01.2011, 11:09 +0800 schrieb David Nelson: Hi Christoph, :-) I'm sorry, friend, but I've just been talking with Narayan about the options, and what you are suggesting would involve re-designing the whole IA. It will mess up everything and cause us numerous other problems to solve in other places. True. And, honestly, I don't really agree with your point about this anyway. Personally, I feel the Why pages are just fine where they are. The Why pages are not the big deal at the moment - although the position seems strange since Home is a different kind of page in comparison with the other ones. Here is an example what the Germans did a week (or so) ago - they added the top-level link Anwender (Users/ Usage) to the page: http://de.libreoffice.org/anwender/ To be honest, I'm more worried about the menu behavior as I pointed out earlier. I fear that some users will get confused - so I'd like to ask you to consider this if the dust settles a bit. I'd like to solve that issue with you, Ivan and all the other guys here. And by the way, I've asked Ivan if there is an easy solution to tweak the highlighting. Unfortunately ... not :-\ We have other things to get done urgently to get the site properly ready, and I'm afraid I just don't have time for this. It is not the right time, mate, sorry. :-( We need to be happy that the site exists, and that it's looking clean, and that there is valuable information and content for our users. True :-) And I'm sure that you also have more important things to focus on: icons, the new design team members, etc... Oh, it is like in the blog posting by Florian - it's hard to find the right priority for all these tasks :-) Here, I'd like to make sure that most people are not only happy with the content, but also with the navigation. The more users can effortless navigate the pages, the more downloads, the more supporters, the more ... Anyway, I hope you understand my POV and don't feel badly about it. Concerning the latter: no. Since I know that you also have to focus on several things at the same time. But I feel free to bother you again very soon, since it's still an issue :-) Okay? Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
Hi, :-) On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 09:46, Narayan Aras narayana...@hotmail.com wrote: David and I believe that this is the get things DONE phase. After the release, we will easily switch to get things RIGHT mode. Hope everyone agrees. Back to work, now- everyone! There's no time to lose! :) +1 David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts
Servus David, Am 25.01.2011 06:52, schrieb David Nelson: On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 06:00, Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com wrote: Concerning the latter: no. Since I know that you also have to focus on several things at the same time. But I feel free to bother you again very soon, since it's still an issue :-) Okay? First of all, you're the only person to have raised issues with the site This is not true. I have been raising issues since the very beginning and all over the time the site has been developed. My latest action was to summarize and add them to [[Website/Development]] on the wiki. Furthermore, I share Christoph´s concern about that someone for example who finds himself on http://www.libreoffice.org/download/instructions/ does not find the download page. Since Christoph already called attention to this issue, I didn´t feel any necessity to point this out again from my side. The fact that Christoph was the first one to indicate some points and others did not explicitly second his statements, does not mean that Christoph is the only one, who stumbled over the issues. Especially since Christoph is known as a long-time and experienced UX expert in the project, I guess many people normally do not see the need to boost his arguments. On the other hand, I'd be disappointed if what you want involves major interventions on the site's content, because an *awful* lot of work has gone into it, and it would be a pity if it was to turn out to be wasted. The community ows you very much respect for what you have achieved with the website. On the other hand, you asked for some weeks of no intervention in order to create the site without disturbance. It´s very natural, that after such a phase, issues may be raised, that mean major interventions on the whole work. maybe we can clarify things during a website confcall. Let's talk about it by voice - which is sometimes a better means of communication than email. ;-) Hm. Please consider that this is an international project and some active members are not so well skilled with English as a foreign language. For these people it is much easier to communicate by reading and writing. (For example, it takes me very long to phrase all this in English. You wouldn´t have fun with me, when I took part in a conference call.) ;-) Stefan -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
Hi David, almost at work, thus just a: sorry for sounding that strong, of course the current site is amazing given the available time - I'd like that even more people can enjoy it's content perceiving it a breeze. So I am happy about the status, and let's talk when things settled a bit. Now, entering day job mode :-) Cheers, Christoph David Nelson comme...@traduction.biz schrieb: Hi Christoph, :-) On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 06:00, Christoph Noack christ...@dogmatux.com wrote: Concerning the latter: no. Since I know that you also have to focus on several things at the same time. But I feel free to bother you again very soon, since it's still an issue :-) Okay? H How can I start. First of all, please read friendliness throught what I'm about to say. ;-) Frankly, I'd like you to think carefully about anything that will involve a lot of work restructuring the website. First of all, you're the only person to have raised issues with the site, and maybe it would be a good idea to leave it like it is for a month or two, and to see how the *user base* reacts. If we do start getting a lot of email with comments on its usability, then - obviously - there is need for action. But, if not, then maybe we can finally enter a period of peace and prosperity, and each of us can focus on other work that has been neglected recently. Myself, I have a lot of work that I want to get on urgently in the docs project, not to mention work for clients. The site-building process has been very time-consuming in terms of the actual work on the site, and in terms of the huge amount of e-mail discussion on and off the list. If you do feel that work is needed redesigning the IA, and if it is likely to cause cascading complications down the line, I might have to leave you to do the work yourself and to deal with the complications, because I don't think I'd have time to help you out much. It seems to me to be rather a secondary priority, and there are other things I'd have to put first. On the other hand, I'd be disappointed if what you want involves major interventions on the site's content, because an *awful* lot of work has gone into it, and it would be a pity if it was to turn out to be wasted. I've given some thought to the issues you raised and I don't really understand some of them. Maybe there's something I missed, and maybe we can clarify things during a website confcall. Let's talk about it by voice - which is sometimes a better means of communication than email. ;-) Meanwhile, can you have a think about the priorities aspect? I'd refer us all to Narayan's notion of getting things right and getting things done. Right now, I feel very much in favor of the latter. However, I am keen to properly examine any problems or shortcomings you perceive in the current site IA and content, so we can talk more about them soon. But I'll be relieved when we get to the stage when the website is something that boosts our productivity and community life, instead of being a continual problem. Ciao for now! ;-) David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
Hi Jaron, David, thanks a lot to you both! Well appreciated - at the moment it's much fun to see the site evolve :-) And, I already used the revised text to invite some more people within our community to join the Design Team. David, just a side note: I've noticed the new Why for ... pages that provide great content (thanks to the creator, Narayan?). But here some things I've noticed as well: Very similar information is now available for Features (LibreOffice) and Home, and the location Home might be misleading for the Why... elements. (Example: If the user opened Get Help and just sees Home as the main menu item, might he think that the Why elements are located there?) Furthermore, the link to See what LibO can do for you now seems a bit strange. Could you please tell me whether you are still working on that? If not, may I provide some more thoughts (structure, punctuation, outline, links, ...)? Cheers, Christoph Am Montag, den 24.01.2011, 04:15 +0800 schrieb David Nelson: Hi Jaron, :-) I already proofread Christoph's draft and put it on the site, but many thanks anyway. ;-) David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
Hi Christoph, How on earth did you find out so soon, it was me? :) We finished the first round yesterday night. Both David and I have the same habit: We brush up the content in several passes, and keep doing it till it is perfected. Now that we are in the SEO-optimization phase, this habit is going to be very useful! :) But the point is that the site is ready for the launch. No missing content or links. All the required sections fully completed. The SEO-optimization will continue for the next 2-3 months. @Duplication: Sometimes the same information is almost replicated in different pages, because some people search for a specific combination, and the combination of page title, meta tags and content has to show up in search engines. That's why we have to provide different combination. Similarly, right now the description looks to the point. But after we analyze the Google page rankings, we may have to repeat the same information in equivalent terms (on the same page or multiple pages), so that their ranking goes up. This would result in a page that looks a bit odd to the reader. But finally we need more people to land on the page through search engines, so such deliberate repetition is unavoidable. @location of why pages: Logically, the reader should come across why Libreoffice right AFTER what is LibreOffice?. So we may have to rearrange this. David? Regards, Narayan Subject: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...]) From: christ...@dogmatux.com To: website@libreoffice.org CC: des...@libreoffice.org Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:42:20 +0100 Hi Jaron, David, thanks a lot to you both! Well appreciated - at the moment it's much fun to see the site evolve :-) And, I already used the revised text to invite some more people within our community to join the Design Team. David, just a side note: I've noticed the new Why for ... pages that provide great content (thanks to the creator, Narayan?). But here some things I've noticed as well: Very similar information is now available for Features (LibreOffice) and Home, and the location Home might be misleading for the Why... elements. (Example: If the user opened Get Help and just sees Home as the main menu item, might he think that the Why elements are located there?) Furthermore, the link to See what LibO can do for you now seems a bit strange. Could you please tell me whether you are still working on that? If not, may I provide some more thoughts (structure, punctuation, outline, links, ...)? Cheers, Christoph Am Montag, den 24.01.2011, 04:15 +0800 schrieb David Nelson: Hi Jaron, :-) I already proofread Christoph's draft and put it on the site, but many thanks anyway. ;-) David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
On second thoughts, I did see Christoph's point, David. And this applies to all second-level menu strips (not just the Home page). The problem is this: When we land on any page using the top menu strip, we see a page. We also see a second level menu in which none of the items are highlighted. So the visitor could wonder whare he is. Probably it may be better to avoid a full page for any of the top-level menu items. That means only second-level menu items have content pages. By default, the first menu items in the second level menu would be selected. For example, in the second-level menu strip of the Home page, add a General menu item at left. So now the second-level strip would look like [General Why for Home? Why for Businesses? ] This General menu item would be selected by default, and show the content that is currently shown on the Home page. The user can then select the other menu items in the second strip and check specific uses (business/home/education...). Regards, Narayan From: narayana...@hotmail.com To: website@libreoffice.org CC: des...@libreoffice.org Subject: RE: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...]) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:32:45 +0530 Hi Christoph, How on earth did you find out so soon, it was me? :) We finished the first round yesterday night. Both David and I have the same habit: We brush up the content in several passes, and keep doing it till it is perfected. Now that we are in the SEO-optimization phase, this habit is going to be very useful! :) But the point is that the site is ready for the launch. No missing content or links. All the required sections fully completed. The SEO-optimization will continue for the next 2-3 months. @Duplication: Sometimes the same information is almost replicated in different pages, because some people search for a specific combination, and the combination of page title, meta tags and content has to show up in search engines. That's why we have to provide different combination. Similarly, right now the description looks to the point. But after we analyze the Google page rankings, we may have to repeat the same information in equivalent terms (on the same page or multiple pages), so that their ranking goes up. This would result in a page that looks a bit odd to the reader. But finally we need more people to land on the page through search engines, so such deliberate repetition is unavoidable. @location of why pages: Logically, the reader should come across why Libreoffice right AFTER what is LibreOffice?. So we may have to rearrange this. David? Regards, Narayan Subject: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...]) From: christ...@dogmatux.com To: website@libreoffice.org CC: des...@libreoffice.org Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:42:20 +0100 Hi Jaron, David, thanks a lot to you both! Well appreciated - at the moment it's much fun to see the site evolve :-) And, I already used the revised text to invite some more people within our community to join the Design Team. David, just a side note: I've noticed the new Why for ... pages that provide great content (thanks to the creator, Narayan?). But here some things I've noticed as well: Very similar information is now available for Features (LibreOffice) and Home, and the location Home might be misleading for the Why... elements. (Example: If the user opened Get Help and just sees Home as the main menu item, might he think that the Why elements are located there?) Furthermore, the link to See what LibO can do for you now seems a bit strange. Could you please tell me whether you are still working on that? If not, may I provide some more thoughts (structure, punctuation, outline, links, ...)? Cheers, Christoph Am Montag, den 24.01.2011, 04:15 +0800 schrieb David Nelson: Hi Jaron, :-) I already proofread Christoph's draft and put it on the site, but many thanks anyway. ;-) David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-website] Thanks and Thoughts (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] UX/Visual Design Description (Draft) [...])
Hi Christoph, :-) I'm sorry, friend, but I've just been talking with Narayan about the options, and what you are suggesting would involve re-designing the whole IA. It will mess up everything and cause us numerous other problems to solve in other places. And, honestly, I don't really agree with your point about this anyway. Personally, I feel the Why pages are just fine where they are. We have other things to get done urgently to get the site properly ready, and I'm afraid I just don't have time for this. It is not the right time, mate, sorry. :-( We need to be happy that the site exists, and that it's looking clean, and that there is valuable information and content for our users. And I'm sure that you also have more important things to focus on: icons, the new design team members, etc... Anyway, I hope you understand my POV and don't feel badly about it. Take care, and read you again soon, ;-) David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
