Re: [whatwg] Footer inside header
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 3:41 AM, Andrés Sanhueza peroyomasli...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/4/26 Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis bhawkesle...@googlemail.com: On Apr 26, 2012 5:39 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote: according to the definition of footer, it appears that authorship information is most appropriate to put there. But sometimes the byline is placed inside the header area, which is reasonably marked up with a header. Isn't that use case addressed by address? No. address is much narrower and indicated in the spec as such. Bylines can also contain the date or, in blog post, links to tags. Good point. Can you provide an example where you'd to put a footer *inside* a header rather than after it like so: article header hgroup h1Headline/h1 h2Subhead/h2 /hgroup /header footer ptime datetime=2012-04-3030 April 2012/time/p paddressJohn Doe/address/p pTags:/p ul lia href=/tags/politicspolitics/a lia href=/tags/politicsenvironment/a /ul /footer pArticle body…/p /article It's worth noting that the definition of header is broad enough to allow byline, date, and tags (group of introductory or navigational aids): http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-header-element So you could also do: article header hgroup h1Headline/h1 h2Subhead/h2 /hgroup ptime datetime=2012-04-3030 April 2012/time/p paddressJohn Doe/address/p pTags:/p ul lia href=/tags/politicspolitics/a lia href=/tags/politicsenvironment/a /ul /header pArticle body…/p /article Personally, I think it might be easier to understand and provide user agent behaviors if we to define header and footer as the header and footer of sections, and then require: [start section] [zero or more aside elements] [zero or one header element] [other material] [zero or one footer element] [zero or more aside elements] [end section] This way, if you hit a navigation key for footer you go to the end of a section, like you'd expect. Allowing aside before header or after footer is mostly a concession to ad publishing. In other words: define header and footer by their structural role rather than their contents per se. -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
Re: [whatwg] Footer inside header
On Apr 26, 2012, at 9:39 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 1:32 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis bhawkesle...@googlemail.com wrote: On Apr 25, 2012 9:20 PM, Andrés Sanhueza peroyomasli...@gmail.com wrote: I see no reason a footer as in textual metadata of a section can't be inside a header (lead of a section). Could this be considered to be allowed? Do you have a real example where you think that markup would be useful? If user agents provide commands to navigate to headers and footers, nesting them could make navigation confusing. One was presented in another thread - according to the definition of footer, it appears that authorship information is most appropriate to put there. But sometimes the byline is placed inside the header area, which is reasonably marked up with a header. So, it makes sense to be able to nest the footer within the header. It may be useful to have distinctive markup to identify a byline within a header. But placing a footer element inside a header element does not seem like the most clear way to do that. I expect most authors would not think to use it that way, and content consumers would have a hard time distinguishing intentional cases of such use from authoring errors. Regards, Maciej
Re: [whatwg] Footer inside header
2012/4/29 Maciej Stachowiak m...@apple.com: On Apr 26, 2012, at 9:39 AM, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 1:32 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis bhawkesle...@googlemail.com wrote: On Apr 25, 2012 9:20 PM, Andrés Sanhueza peroyomasli...@gmail.com wrote: I see no reason a footer as in textual metadata of a section can't be inside a header (lead of a section). Could this be considered to be allowed? Do you have a real example where you think that markup would be useful? If user agents provide commands to navigate to headers and footers, nesting them could make navigation confusing. One was presented in another thread - according to the definition of footer, it appears that authorship information is most appropriate to put there. But sometimes the byline is placed inside the header area, which is reasonably marked up with a header. So, it makes sense to be able to nest the footer within the header. It may be useful to have distinctive markup to identify a byline within a header. But placing a footer element inside a header element does not seem like the most clear way to do that. I expect most authors would not think to use it that way, and content consumers would have a hard time distinguishing intentional cases of such use from authoring errors. The problem is that I don't see semantic difference into the current definition of footer and a header byline to warrant a new element or convention. While header is clearly 'introductory' stuff, footer is defined as meta info of its section, so its position on the code is not fixed as long it complies with that. header is not a section element so it may not cause an issue in that regard. It have been stated that the element names aren't determinant of their semantic, and that apply for previous redefined elements which were originally named on presentational aspects. Their new definitions gives them a semantic purpose, yet making them still distinct from other elements.
Re: [whatwg] Footer inside header
On Apr 25, 2012 9:20 PM, Andrés Sanhueza peroyomasli...@gmail.com wrote: I see no reason a footer as in textual metadata of a section can't be inside a header (lead of a section). Could this be considered to be allowed? Do you have a real example where you think that markup would be useful? If user agents provide commands to navigate to headers and footers, nesting them could make navigation confusing.
Re: [whatwg] Footer inside header
On Apr 26, 2012 5:39 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote: according to the definition of footer, it appears that authorship information is most appropriate to put there. But sometimes the byline is placed inside the header area, which is reasonably marked up with a header. Isn't that use case addressed by address?
Re: [whatwg] Footer inside header
2012/4/26 Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis bhawkesle...@googlemail.com: On Apr 26, 2012 5:39 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. jackalm...@gmail.com wrote: according to the definition of footer, it appears that authorship information is most appropriate to put there. But sometimes the byline is placed inside the header area, which is reasonably marked up with a header. Isn't that use case addressed by address? No. address is much narrower and indicated in the spec as such. Bylines can also contain the date or, in blog post, links to tags.
