[Wicket-user] Re: Hibernate vs Cayenne?
I have no experience with Cayenne, but some readers (Jonathan C) have. From what I understand, Cayenne works with static code generation. I have experience with OJB. I'm not too crazy about it to put it mildly, though I have been working with pre-1.0 versions. Maybe if you want more control, you should consider frameworks like iBatis. Personally, I like Hibernate. It has it's glitches, but works for my projects fine most of the time. Eelco On 8/26/05, Gili [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am seriously considering dumping Hibernate in favor of Cayenne because the former has a multitude of bugs and usability issues I ran into which the authors refuse to acknowledge (don't mention the word bug on their discussion forum or else they will ban you. No joke!). Anyone who honestly thinks their software has no bugs *has* to be delusional in my book. Anyway, I'm wondering whether anyone has tried using Cayenne before? I noticed a lot of Wicket users have had experience with Hibernate so I figured this was a good place to ask. I read that Cayenne is feature-equivilent to Hibernate but the developers are far more friendly and their support base is stronger. With Hibernate whenever I ran into trouble and try asking for help the developers first tell me off, then proceed to tell me to go buy their book. Now, I can hardly fault them for their capitalistic ploy, but I have a hard time justifying to myself having to pay money to people who badger users asking for help. Frankly, I hope they crash and burn for their attitude. So back to the point. Does anyone have any experience with Cayenne or maybe Apache OJB? I'm look at http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?ObjectRelationalToolComparison for a comparison but it is rather dry. I'm looking for practical experience from real people. Let me know... Gili -- http://www.desktopbeautifier.com/ --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects Teams * Testing QA Security * Process Improvement Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects Teams * Testing QA Security * Process Improvement Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
Re: [Wicket-user] Re: Hibernate vs Cayenne?
Hmm, Ironically, I got the book some time ago, but haven't actually got in a position to need to use it until a few days ago, when I used it to come up with a one-date data viewing app[1]. Anyway, a quick look for comparisions came up with the following quote from http://raibledesigns.com/page/rd?anchor=hibernate_vs_ibatis iBATIS is good for basic or mapping, but it falls way short of hibernate in more complex orm. Hibernate has a lot built into that are intended to compete with EJB CMP not jdbc and iBATIS. If you are use to rolling your own persistence then iBATIS will seem amazing. Just wait for a cross cutting concern or a User Type to get you scratching your head. Oh, and how do you abstract anything with iBATIS? Oh yeah, and Hibernate now has filters. I guess what I am really saying is iBATIS is a good primitive tool, and good for introducing people to orm that haven't a clue. If you then have some mreo complex problems you should probably consider Hibernate. I can appreciate the above comments for why iBATIS is good, and don't necessarily disagree, but you will be limited at some point with it's simplicity. If it is all you need, happy birthday! The author may have been trying to put down iBATIS, but for what I need, it sounds like I should be looking into it! :-) /Gwyn [1] The app's a single page, showing a pageable view, filtered by content time - basically a cut-down combination of parts of the cd-app table examples, although even that 'needs' contrib-data, contrib-data-hibernate-3.0 contrib-dataview support! I'm toying with the idea of uploading it, but wondering if it's worth it, as it's so cut-down... On 26/08/05, Eelco Hillenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have no experience with Cayenne, but some readers (Jonathan C) have. From what I understand, Cayenne works with static code generation. I have experience with OJB. I'm not too crazy about it to put it mildly, though I have been working with pre-1.0 versions. Maybe if you want more control, you should consider frameworks like iBatis. Personally, I like Hibernate. It has it's glitches, but works for my projects fine most of the time. Eelco On 8/26/05, Gili [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am seriously considering dumping Hibernate in favor of Cayenne because the former has a multitude of bugs and usability issues I ran into which the authors refuse to acknowledge (don't mention the word bug on their discussion forum or else they will ban you. No joke!). Anyone who honestly thinks their software has no bugs *has* to be delusional in my book. Anyway, I'm wondering whether anyone has tried using Cayenne before? I noticed a lot of Wicket users have had experience with Hibernate so I figured this was a good place to ask. I read that Cayenne is feature-equivilent to Hibernate but the developers are far more friendly and their support base is stronger. With Hibernate whenever I ran into trouble and try asking for help the developers first tell me off, then proceed to tell me to go buy their book. Now, I can hardly fault them for their capitalistic ploy, but I have a hard time justifying to myself having to pay money to people who badger users asking for help. Frankly, I hope they crash and burn for their attitude. So back to the point. Does anyone have any experience with Cayenne or maybe Apache OJB? I'm look at http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?ObjectRelationalToolComparison for a comparison but it is rather dry. I'm looking for practical experience from real people. Let me know... Gili -- http://www.desktopbeautifier.com/ --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects Teams * Testing QA Security * Process Improvement Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects Teams * Testing QA Security * Process Improvement Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects Teams * Testing QA Security * Process Improvement
Re: [Wicket-user] Re: Hibernate vs Cayenne?
The thing is, that while Hibernate can help you out a lot when you have a bunch of complex relations, it can also get in your way. Especially when optimizing your applications, and/ or when you have to do really advanced queries, it is not allways obvious how Hibernate will work out things. Which means you'll be spending time figuring out how and why Hibernate does things for specific cases. One other potential problem I've seen a lot (and actually have had discussion about with co-developers since the days of Castor) is that it introduces a new kind of developer lazyness. Just because you /can/ have all sorts of relations, means that a lot of developers /will/ introduce them, even if they don't really need them. They will try to solve all their problems using that automatic relations support, and not allways think about the performance consequences of what they do. Anyway, I'm a happy Hibernate user, and it can help your projects a lot. But there certainly are cases where using more low level frameworks like iBatis is just as good an idea. Eelco On 8/26/05, Gwyn Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, Ironically, I got the book some time ago, but haven't actually got in a position to need to use it until a few days ago, when I used it to come up with a one-date data viewing app[1]. Anyway, a quick look for comparisions came up with the following quote from http://raibledesigns.com/page/rd?anchor=hibernate_vs_ibatis iBATIS is good for basic or mapping, but it falls way short of hibernate in more complex orm. Hibernate has a lot built into that are intended to compete with EJB CMP not jdbc and iBATIS. If you are use to rolling your own persistence then iBATIS will seem amazing. Just wait for a cross cutting concern or a User Type to get you scratching your head. Oh, and how do you abstract anything with iBATIS? Oh yeah, and Hibernate now has filters. I guess what I am really saying is iBATIS is a good primitive tool, and good for introducing people to orm that haven't a clue. If you then have some mreo complex problems you should probably consider Hibernate. I can appreciate the above comments for why iBATIS is good, and don't necessarily disagree, but you will be limited at some point with it's simplicity. If it is all you need, happy birthday! The author may have been trying to put down iBATIS, but for what I need, it sounds like I should be looking into it! :-) /Gwyn [1] The app's a single page, showing a pageable view, filtered by content time - basically a cut-down combination of parts of the cd-app table examples, although even that 'needs' contrib-data, contrib-data-hibernate-3.0 contrib-dataview support! I'm toying with the idea of uploading it, but wondering if it's worth it, as it's so cut-down... On 26/08/05, Eelco Hillenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have no experience with Cayenne, but some readers (Jonathan C) have. From what I understand, Cayenne works with static code generation. I have experience with OJB. I'm not too crazy about it to put it mildly, though I have been working with pre-1.0 versions. Maybe if you want more control, you should consider frameworks like iBatis. Personally, I like Hibernate. It has it's glitches, but works for my projects fine most of the time. Eelco On 8/26/05, Gili [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am seriously considering dumping Hibernate in favor of Cayenne because the former has a multitude of bugs and usability issues I ran into which the authors refuse to acknowledge (don't mention the word bug on their discussion forum or else they will ban you. No joke!). Anyone who honestly thinks their software has no bugs *has* to be delusional in my book. Anyway, I'm wondering whether anyone has tried using Cayenne before? I noticed a lot of Wicket users have had experience with Hibernate so I figured this was a good place to ask. I read that Cayenne is feature-equivilent to Hibernate but the developers are far more friendly and their support base is stronger. With Hibernate whenever I ran into trouble and try asking for help the developers first tell me off, then proceed to tell me to go buy their book. Now, I can hardly fault them for their capitalistic ploy, but I have a hard time justifying to myself having to pay money to people who badger users asking for help. Frankly, I hope they crash and burn for their attitude. So back to the point. Does anyone have any experience with Cayenne or maybe Apache OJB? I'm look at http://c2.com/cgi-bin/wiki?ObjectRelationalToolComparison for a comparison but it is rather dry. I'm looking for practical experience from real people. Let me know... Gili -- http://www.desktopbeautifier.com/ --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San
Re: [Wicket-user] Re: Hibernate vs Cayenne?
It seems that only one person has actually tried Cayenne. Why is that? I am familiar with iBatis but as you guys have mentioned it is far more low-level than Hibernate. Cayenne (in theory) has equivilent functionality to Hibernate with a similar design but a better support. Hibernate has taught me how important good support really is. My big problem with Hibernate is that it throws utterly useless exception messages sometimes. Like ... you can read the message but you have absolutely no clue what to do next. How do you fix the problem? Why is this happening? Ok, so *some* object is not unique in the session, but *which one*? It won't tell you. And stupid things like this. The problem was that (a) Hibernate's authors put absolutely no effort into ensuring their messages hint at what is actually wrong or how to fix it (b) asking for help on their forums got you no replies or got you banned. So basically Hibernate works well for simple problems, until you run into more complex problems, involving concurrency or running out of memory for example... then you're left holding the eggshells. You go and try debug into Hibernate's source code :) it's not fun! Anyway, I'll look into Cayenne today and hopefully report back to you guys soon. Thanks, Gili Eelco Hillenius wrote: The thing is, that while Hibernate can help you out a lot when you have a bunch of complex relations, it can also get in your way. Especially when optimizing your applications, and/ or when you have to do really advanced queries, it is not allways obvious how Hibernate will work out things. Which means you'll be spending time figuring out how and why Hibernate does things for specific cases. One other potential problem I've seen a lot (and actually have had discussion about with co-developers since the days of Castor) is that it introduces a new kind of developer lazyness. Just because you /can/ have all sorts of relations, means that a lot of developers /will/ introduce them, even if they don't really need them. They will try to solve all their problems using that automatic relations support, and not allways think about the performance consequences of what they do. Anyway, I'm a happy Hibernate user, and it can help your projects a lot. But there certainly are cases where using more low level frameworks like iBatis is just as good an idea. Eelco On 8/26/05, Gwyn Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, Ironically, I got the book some time ago, but haven't actually got in a position to need to use it until a few days ago, when I used it to come up with a one-date data viewing app[1]. Anyway, a quick look for comparisions came up with the following quote from http://raibledesigns.com/page/rd?anchor=hibernate_vs_ibatis iBATIS is good for basic or mapping, but it falls way short of hibernate in more complex orm. Hibernate has a lot built into that are intended to compete with EJB CMP not jdbc and iBATIS. If you are use to rolling your own persistence then iBATIS will seem amazing. Just wait for a cross cutting concern or a User Type to get you scratching your head. Oh, and how do you abstract anything with iBATIS? Oh yeah, and Hibernate now has filters. I guess what I am really saying is iBATIS is a good primitive tool, and good for introducing people to orm that haven't a clue. If you then have some mreo complex problems you should probably consider Hibernate. I can appreciate the above comments for why iBATIS is good, and don't necessarily disagree, but you will be limited at some point with it's simplicity. If it is all you need, happy birthday! The author may have been trying to put down iBATIS, but for what I need, it sounds like I should be looking into it! :-) /Gwyn [1] The app's a single page, showing a pageable view, filtered by content time - basically a cut-down combination of parts of the cd-app table examples, although even that 'needs' contrib-data, contrib-data-hibernate-3.0 contrib-dataview support! I'm toying with the idea of uploading it, but wondering if it's worth it, as it's so cut-down... On 26/08/05, Eelco Hillenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have no experience with Cayenne, but some readers (Jonathan C) have. From what I understand, Cayenne works with static code generation. I have experience with OJB. I'm not too crazy about it to put it mildly, though I have been working with pre-1.0 versions. Maybe if you want more control, you should consider frameworks like iBatis. Personally, I like Hibernate. It has it's glitches, but works for my projects fine most of the time. Eelco On 8/26/05, Gili [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am seriously considering dumping Hibernate in favor of Cayenne because the former has a multitude of bugs and usability issues I ran into which the authors refuse to acknowledge (don't mention the word bug on their discussion forum or else they will ban you. No joke!). Anyone who honestly thinks their software has no bugs *has* to be delusional in my book.
[Wicket-user] Re: Hibernate vs Cayenne?
I like your name, Anders. My son's name is Anders Carlson and my wife was a Peterson. We had to give our Anders a Scandinavian first name because we couldn't get pregnant until we visited my relatives in Sweden. Back to my real post: At work I introduced the Spring DAO framework (nothing else Spring, though). It is a huge step up from our previous attempts at doing our own JDBC layer but it still gives us direct control over the JDBC and how it maps to objects. Pride is probably somewhat similar. :-) Jonathan Carlson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2005-08-26 5:03:12 AM http://pride.sourceforge.net/ It's extremely lightweight and scaled down. There's lots of things it can't do - or more correctly you have to do it. So far I'm very happy. /Anders -- http://ojalgo.org/ Mathematics, Linear Algebra and Optimisation with Java __ This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com _ --- SF.Net email is Sponsored by the Better Software Conference EXPO September 19-22, 2005 * San Francisco, CA * Development Lifecycle Practices Agile Plan-Driven Development * Managing Projects Teams * Testing QA Security * Process Improvement Measurement * http://www.sqe.com/bsce5sf ___ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
