Re: [Wikidata] Language for non-logged in users

[Daniel Kinzler]

Am 25.01.19 um 13:33 schrieb DaB.:> Hello.
> Am 25.01.2019 um 12:13 schrieb Daniel Kinzler:
>> Serving different content from the same URL is generally a bad thing.
>
> No, it’s not. That’s the reason they invented Language-headers in the
> first place: So you can view a page in your language and I can view a
> site in my language. Please respect that not everybody can read english
> (fluently).

Headers can solve the caching problem, but this makes it impossible to link to a
specific language version of a page. That is bad when discussing specifics of
the page, and can cause confusion. It's also bad for search engine indexes,
which should index all language versions.

I very much want everyone to be able to see each page in their own language. The
idea is to redirect based on the language header, when visiting the neutral URL.
Please read the proposal.


-- 
Daniel Kinzler
Principal Software Engineer, Core Platform
Wikimedia Foundation

___
Wikidata mailing list
Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Re: [Wikidata] Language for non-logged in users

[Darren Cook]

>> Serving different content from the same URL is generally a bad thing.
> 
> No, it’s not. That’s the reason they invented Language-headers in the
> first place: So you can view a page in your language and I can view a
> site in my language. Please respect that not everybody can read english

I think the context was that language headers are one way to solve that
problem, but with hindsight they are inferior to the solution of the
language being in the URL.

Caching is a very important practical reason. Just as important, for me
at least, is that if the preferred language is part of the URL I can
forward a URL to someone and be sure we are looking at the same content.

Generic pages that use the accept-language preferences to redirect to
the correct page are one possible way to please everyone. E.g.
wikidata.org could redirect to en.wikidata.org or de.wikidata.org or
ja.wikidata.org. But those redirects create extra load/bandwidth, and it
might be too late for it now (i.e. if millions of wikidata.org URLs are
out there in the wild).

Darren

___
Wikidata mailing list
Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Re: [Wikidata] Language for non-logged in users

[DaB.]

Hello.
Am 25.01.2019 um 12:13 schrieb Daniel Kinzler:
> Serving different content from the same URL is generally a bad thing.

No, it’s not. That’s the reason they invented Language-headers in the
first place: So you can view a page in your language and I can view a
site in my language. Please respect that not everybody can read english
(fluently).


Sincerely,
DaB.


-- 
Benutzerseite: [[:w:de:User:DaB.]]
PGP: 0x7CD1E35FD2A3A158 (pka funktioniert)



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Wikidata mailing list
Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Re: [Wikidata] Language for non-logged in users

[Darren Cook]

Thanks Leszek; ?uselang=xx is basically what I was looking for, and
works equally well when logged-in, which is helpful. (It
doesn't work through links, but that is not a show-stopper.)

> The reason this is not trivial is two-fold: 1) caching and b) the
> semantics of URLs. Serving different content from the same URL is
> generally a bad thing.

Agreed. (But I prefer the heading to the way Google used to do it for
years, which was decide the UI language based on your IP address, and
ignore the headers - perhaps that was caching-related, too.)

> A soltuion for this is dicussed in
> , but work on this is
> currently not resourced.

Thanks.

Darren

___
Wikidata mailing list
Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Re: [Wikidata] Language for non-logged in users

[Daniel Kinzler]

The reason this is not trivial is two-fold: 1) caching and b) the semantics of
URLs. Serving different content from the same URL is generally a bad thing.

A soltuion for this is dicussed in ,
but work on this is currently not resourced.

Am 25.01.19 um 11:44 schrieb Darren Cook:> I wanted to send someone a URL to
show them how a data item looks in
> Japanese (so we could see which items have a translation). But am I
> right in thinking there is nothing I can put in the URL to do this?
>
> I also tried changing my accept-language header to put "ja" first, but
> it is ignored. Was this a feature that was discussed and rejected; or
> just an itch that no-one has got around to scratching yet?
>
> Darren
>
> P.S. I realize I can login, change my UI to another language, and see
> the data that way. But that is quite a long-winded process, especially
> if the person has not created an account yet.
>
> It also changes the whole UI, not just the data, which is painful if I
> just want to see what has been translated but cannot read the language.
> I think for a project about data, you should be able to set the UI
> language and the content language separately.
>
> E.g. I just put a page into Greek (I think), and now I can see the few
> items that have been translated, but cannot read the property names! Let
> alone navigate the site.) (The switch back to previous language link at
> the top was a great idea, though - thank-you to whoever thought of that
> shortcut.)
>
>
> ___
> Wikidata mailing list
> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>

-- 
Daniel Kinzler
Principal Software Engineer, Core Platform
Wikimedia Foundation

___
Wikidata mailing list
Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Re: [Wikidata] Language for non-logged in users

[Lucas Werkmeister]

(But note that this does change the whole UI language, not just the data.)

(And for context, I’m pretty sure the reason we don’t respect
Accept-Language for anonymous users is that it would hurt caching.)

On 25.01.19 11:55, Leszek Manicki wrote:
> Hello Darren,
>
> Using uselang parameter in the URL should do the trick, if I get what
> you're up to correctly.
> e.g. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q666?uselang=ja
>
> Best!
> Leszek
>
>
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 at 11:45, Darren Cook  > wrote:
>
> I wanted to send someone a URL to show them how a data item looks in
> Japanese (so we could see which items have a translation). But am I
> right in thinking there is nothing I can put in the URL to do this?
>
> I also tried changing my accept-language header to put "ja" first, but
> it is ignored. Was this a feature that was discussed and rejected; or
> just an itch that no-one has got around to scratching yet?
>
> Darren
>
> P.S. I realize I can login, change my UI to another language, and see
> the data that way. But that is quite a long-winded process, especially
> if the person has not created an account yet.
>
> It also changes the whole UI, not just the data, which is painful if I
> just want to see what has been translated but cannot read the
> language.
> I think for a project about data, you should be able to set the UI
> language and the content language separately.
>
> E.g. I just put a page into Greek (I think), and now I can see the few
> items that have been translated, but cannot read the property
> names! Let
> alone navigate the site.) (The switch back to previous language
> link at
> the top was a great idea, though - thank-you to whoever thought of
> that
> shortcut.)
>
>
> ___
> Wikidata mailing list
> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org 
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>
>
>
> -- 
> Leszek Manicki
> Engineering Manager
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
> Phone: +49 (0)30 219 158 26-0
> http://wikimedia.de
>
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
> the sum of all knowledge. Help us to achieve our vision!
> https://spenden.wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland – Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.
> V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts
> Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig
> anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin,
> Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
>
> ___
> Wikidata mailing list
> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
___
Wikidata mailing list
Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

Re: [Wikidata] Language for non-logged in users

[Leszek Manicki]

Hello Darren,

Using uselang parameter in the URL should do the trick, if I get what
you're up to correctly.
e.g. https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q666?uselang=ja

Best!
Leszek


On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 at 11:45, Darren Cook  wrote:

> I wanted to send someone a URL to show them how a data item looks in
> Japanese (so we could see which items have a translation). But am I
> right in thinking there is nothing I can put in the URL to do this?
>
> I also tried changing my accept-language header to put "ja" first, but
> it is ignored. Was this a feature that was discussed and rejected; or
> just an itch that no-one has got around to scratching yet?
>
> Darren
>
> P.S. I realize I can login, change my UI to another language, and see
> the data that way. But that is quite a long-winded process, especially
> if the person has not created an account yet.
>
> It also changes the whole UI, not just the data, which is painful if I
> just want to see what has been translated but cannot read the language.
> I think for a project about data, you should be able to set the UI
> language and the content language separately.
>
> E.g. I just put a page into Greek (I think), and now I can see the few
> items that have been translated, but cannot read the property names! Let
> alone navigate the site.) (The switch back to previous language link at
> the top was a great idea, though - thank-you to whoever thought of that
> shortcut.)
>
>
> ___
> Wikidata mailing list
> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>


-- 
Leszek Manicki
Engineering Manager

Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin
Phone: +49 (0)30 219 158 26-0
http://wikimedia.de

Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us to achieve our vision!
https://spenden.wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland – Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
___
Wikidata mailing list
Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata

[Wikidata] Language for non-logged in users

[Darren Cook]

I wanted to send someone a URL to show them how a data item looks in
Japanese (so we could see which items have a translation). But am I
right in thinking there is nothing I can put in the URL to do this?

I also tried changing my accept-language header to put "ja" first, but
it is ignored. Was this a feature that was discussed and rejected; or
just an itch that no-one has got around to scratching yet?

Darren

P.S. I realize I can login, change my UI to another language, and see
the data that way. But that is quite a long-winded process, especially
if the person has not created an account yet.

It also changes the whole UI, not just the data, which is painful if I
just want to see what has been translated but cannot read the language.
I think for a project about data, you should be able to set the UI
language and the content language separately.

E.g. I just put a page into Greek (I think), and now I can see the few
items that have been translated, but cannot read the property names! Let
alone navigate the site.) (The switch back to previous language link at
the top was a great idea, though - thank-you to whoever thought of that
shortcut.)


___
Wikidata mailing list
Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata