Re: [Wikidata] language fallbacks on Wikipedia and co

[Konstantinos Stampoulis]

(I accidentally pressed send before finishing)
Fourth language is russian.
https://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportPageViewsPerCountryBreakdown.htm
This order does make sense when we consider the languages that greeks learn
as a second language and languages of immigrants.
In elwiki we already have infoboxes that display content from Wikidata and
we hardcoded as fallback languages english, german and french (mostly
because of the latin script).

Either we should have a per project order of fallback languages, or
redefine mediawiki interface fallback languages.



Στις Παρ, 17 Ιουν 2016 στις 1:12 μ.μ., ο/η Konstantinos Stampoulis <
ger...@geraki.gr> έγραψε:

> I believe that it would be nice to work with the #babel templates. After
> all, I guess that most of the editors bypass caching through their
> preferences.
>
> My concern is on language "fallback that is defined by MediaWiki for the
> interface languages". Probably it is not strictly related with Wikidata and
> the ArticlePlaceholder, but it will be important when content that will
> be displayed to readers, will be affected by this. I live in Greece and
> when I press the button to change interface language in any project,
> MediaWiki suggests english, pontic_greek, bulgarian, albanian, turkish,
> macedonian... With this row, when there is no english label the reader will
> get labels and names in languages and scripts not really understandable by
> most of the population. Readers from Greece read Wikipedia in english,
> greek and german, so it would make sense to have a fallback in these
> languages, thus german instead of bulgarian.
>
>
> Στις Πέμ, 16 Ιουν 2016 στις 2:46 μ.μ., ο/η Daniel Kinzler <
> daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de> έγραψε:
>
>> Am 15.06.2016 um 23:53 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
>> > Hoi,
>> > Wil it work using the #babel templates?
>>
>> No, because that would be inconsistent with the fallback that is applied
>> when
>> using Lua or {{#property}} in wikitext. The fallback is based on the
>> fallback
>> that is defined by MediaWiki for the interface labnguages.
>>
>> In wikitext, we cannot use the Babel templates, because that would break
>> caching. The rendering can depend on a few user specific settings, but
>> caching a
>> rendered version of every page for every possible combination of babel
>> templates
>> is not feasible.
>>
>> We could in theory use a different fallback mechanism on
>> Special:AboutTopic, but
>> that would be quite confusing - why does it look differently in articles?
>> Also,
>> when talking to others about the output of Special:AboutTopic, this might
>> get
>> confusing: if someone complains that e.g. some label they see there is
>> wrong,
>> and you go to the page but what you see is different, it becomes hard to
>> discuss
>> the issue. There would be no way to link to the page as you see it.
>> Everyone
>> would potentially see different output.
>>
>> -- daniel
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>>
>
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Re: [Wikidata] language fallbacks on Wikipedia and co

[Konstantinos Stampoulis]

I believe that it would be nice to work with the #babel templates. After
all, I guess that most of the editors bypass caching through their
preferences.

My concern is on language "fallback that is defined by MediaWiki for the
interface languages". Probably it is not strictly related with Wikidata and
the ArticlePlaceholder, but it will be important when content that will be
displayed to readers, will be affected by this. I live in Greece and when I
press the button to change interface language in any project, MediaWiki
suggests english, pontic_greek, bulgarian, albanian, turkish, macedonian...
With this row, when there is no english label the reader will get labels
and names in languages and scripts not really understandable by most of the
population. Readers from Greece read Wikipedia in english, greek and
german, so it would make sense to have a fallback in these languages, thus
german instead of bulgarian.


Στις Πέμ, 16 Ιουν 2016 στις 2:46 μ.μ., ο/η Daniel Kinzler <
daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de> έγραψε:

> Am 15.06.2016 um 23:53 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
> > Hoi,
> > Wil it work using the #babel templates?
>
> No, because that would be inconsistent with the fallback that is applied
> when
> using Lua or {{#property}} in wikitext. The fallback is based on the
> fallback
> that is defined by MediaWiki for the interface labnguages.
>
> In wikitext, we cannot use the Babel templates, because that would break
> caching. The rendering can depend on a few user specific settings, but
> caching a
> rendered version of every page for every possible combination of babel
> templates
> is not feasible.
>
> We could in theory use a different fallback mechanism on
> Special:AboutTopic, but
> that would be quite confusing - why does it look differently in articles?
> Also,
> when talking to others about the output of Special:AboutTopic, this might
> get
> confusing: if someone complains that e.g. some label they see there is
> wrong,
> and you go to the page but what you see is different, it becomes hard to
> discuss
> the issue. There would be no way to link to the page as you see it.
> Everyone
> would potentially see different output.
>
> -- daniel
>
>
> ___
> Wikidata mailing list
> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>
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Re: [Wikidata] language fallbacks on Wikipedia and co

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
When you show a text that is not of the language you make it hard to
understand what it means. I hear you when you have a problem with caching
but do you realise what problems you introduce when you show information
that is not of that language?

In my opinion you can cache everything that is of that language and show
what is in a different language in a different colour. It would be better
to show the information that is in a different language according to the
#babel information and when there is nothing in any of those language just
show something.

I may be confusing.. In the major languages it is a problem that sorts
itself out, in the smaller languages it is vital to show information that
makes to the people that read the data. Consider for instance people that
emigrated to all parts of the world. It is the only sensible way (not for
computers but for people).
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 16 June 2016 at 13:46, Daniel Kinzler 
wrote:

> Am 15.06.2016 um 23:53 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
> > Hoi,
> > Wil it work using the #babel templates?
>
> No, because that would be inconsistent with the fallback that is applied
> when
> using Lua or {{#property}} in wikitext. The fallback is based on the
> fallback
> that is defined by MediaWiki for the interface labnguages.
>
> In wikitext, we cannot use the Babel templates, because that would break
> caching. The rendering can depend on a few user specific settings, but
> caching a
> rendered version of every page for every possible combination of babel
> templates
> is not feasible.
>
> We could in theory use a different fallback mechanism on
> Special:AboutTopic, but
> that would be quite confusing - why does it look differently in articles?
> Also,
> when talking to others about the output of Special:AboutTopic, this might
> get
> confusing: if someone complains that e.g. some label they see there is
> wrong,
> and you go to the page but what you see is different, it becomes hard to
> discuss
> the issue. There would be no way to link to the page as you see it.
> Everyone
> would potentially see different output.
>
> -- daniel
>
>
> ___
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> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>
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Re: [Wikidata] language fallbacks on Wikipedia and co

[Daniel Kinzler]

Am 15.06.2016 um 23:53 schrieb Gerard Meijssen:
> Hoi,
> Wil it work using the #babel templates?

No, because that would be inconsistent with the fallback that is applied when
using Lua or {{#property}} in wikitext. The fallback is based on the fallback
that is defined by MediaWiki for the interface labnguages.

In wikitext, we cannot use the Babel templates, because that would break
caching. The rendering can depend on a few user specific settings, but caching a
rendered version of every page for every possible combination of babel templates
is not feasible.

We could in theory use a different fallback mechanism on Special:AboutTopic, but
that would be quite confusing - why does it look differently in articles? Also,
when talking to others about the output of Special:AboutTopic, this might get
confusing: if someone complains that e.g. some label they see there is wrong,
and you go to the page but what you see is different, it becomes hard to discuss
the issue. There would be no way to link to the page as you see it. Everyone
would potentially see different output.

-- daniel


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Re: [Wikidata] language fallbacks on Wikipedia and co

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
That would be only a partial solution. It would be good for people who are
just reading. For people who have a #Babel template it is a disservice to
provide them with a language they do not know. Any way, it is important to
always show a label in any language. When someone is really keen, he or she
can use google translate to understand better and possibly even add a
label.

Making the addition of labels easy is key in making this a success.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 16 June 2016 at 12:12, Konstantinos Stampoulis  wrote:

> Will and how the fallback languages will be configured?  I guess that a
> per project configuration will be needed.
>
>
>
> Konstantinos Stampoulis
> ger...@geraki.gr
> http://www.geraki.gr
>
> 
> Συνεισφέρετε στην Βικιπαίδεια. https://el.wikipedia.org
> ---
> Οι παραπάνω απόψεις είναι προσωπικές και δεν εκφράζουν παρά μόνο εμένα. Το
> μήνυμα θεωρείται εμπιστευτικό μόνο εάν το έχω ζητήσει ρητά, διαφορετικά
> μπορείτε να το χρησιμοποιήσετε σε οποιαδήποτε δημόσια συζήτηση. Δεν έχω
> τίποτε να κρύψω. :-)
>
>
> 2016-06-15 22:47 GMT+03:00 Lydia Pintscher :
>
>> Hey folks :)
>>
>> With the rollout of the ArticlePlaceholder one issue became very
>> apparent: language fallbacks for them are needed - especially on the small
>> languages - because otherwise you'll see a lot of Qs and Ps... We should
>> have made this possible a long time ago but now with the ArticlePlaceholder
>> it became more urgent. So starting in the next days you will see more
>> fallbacks happening in Lua and the property parser function on Wikipedia
>> and the other Wikimedia projects using Wikidata data. It will use the usual
>> MediaWiki fallback. It might need a purge for some pages initially to
>> actually show up.
>> If you see any problems popping up with this please let me know about it.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>> Lydia
>> --
>> Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
>> Product Manager for Wikidata
>>
>> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
>> Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
>> 10963 Berlin
>> www.wikimedia.de
>>
>> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
>>
>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
>> unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt
>> für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
>>
>> ___
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>> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikidata] language fallbacks on Wikipedia and co

[Konstantinos Stampoulis]

Will and how the fallback languages will be configured?  I guess that a per
project configuration will be needed.



Konstantinos Stampoulis
ger...@geraki.gr
http://www.geraki.gr


Συνεισφέρετε στην Βικιπαίδεια. https://el.wikipedia.org
---
Οι παραπάνω απόψεις είναι προσωπικές και δεν εκφράζουν παρά μόνο εμένα. Το
μήνυμα θεωρείται εμπιστευτικό μόνο εάν το έχω ζητήσει ρητά, διαφορετικά
μπορείτε να το χρησιμοποιήσετε σε οποιαδήποτε δημόσια συζήτηση. Δεν έχω
τίποτε να κρύψω. :-)


2016-06-15 22:47 GMT+03:00 Lydia Pintscher :

> Hey folks :)
>
> With the rollout of the ArticlePlaceholder one issue became very apparent:
> language fallbacks for them are needed - especially on the small languages
> - because otherwise you'll see a lot of Qs and Ps... We should have made
> this possible a long time ago but now with the ArticlePlaceholder it became
> more urgent. So starting in the next days you will see more fallbacks
> happening in Lua and the property parser function on Wikipedia and the
> other Wikimedia projects using Wikidata data. It will use the usual
> MediaWiki fallback. It might need a purge for some pages initially to
> actually show up.
> If you see any problems popping up with this please let me know about it.
>
>
> Cheers
> Lydia
> --
> Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
> Product Manager for Wikidata
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
> 10963 Berlin
> www.wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
>
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
> unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt
> für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
>
> ___
> Wikidata mailing list
> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>
>
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Re: [Wikidata] language fallbacks on Wikipedia and co

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Wil it work using the #babel templates?
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 15 June 2016 at 21:47, Lydia Pintscher 
wrote:

> Hey folks :)
>
> With the rollout of the ArticlePlaceholder one issue became very apparent:
> language fallbacks for them are needed - especially on the small languages
> - because otherwise you'll see a lot of Qs and Ps... We should have made
> this possible a long time ago but now with the ArticlePlaceholder it became
> more urgent. So starting in the next days you will see more fallbacks
> happening in Lua and the property parser function on Wikipedia and the
> other Wikimedia projects using Wikidata data. It will use the usual
> MediaWiki fallback. It might need a purge for some pages initially to
> actually show up.
> If you see any problems popping up with this please let me know about it.
>
>
> Cheers
> Lydia
> --
> Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
> Product Manager for Wikidata
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
> 10963 Berlin
> www.wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
>
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
> unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt
> für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
>
> ___
> Wikidata mailing list
> Wikidata@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata
>
>
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[Wikidata] language fallbacks on Wikipedia and co

[Lydia Pintscher]

Hey folks :)

With the rollout of the ArticlePlaceholder one issue became very apparent:
language fallbacks for them are needed - especially on the small languages
- because otherwise you'll see a lot of Qs and Ps... We should have made
this possible a long time ago but now with the ArticlePlaceholder it became
more urgent. So starting in the next days you will see more fallbacks
happening in Lua and the property parser function on Wikipedia and the
other Wikimedia projects using Wikidata data. It will use the usual
MediaWiki fallback. It might need a purge for some pages initially to
actually show up.
If you see any problems popping up with this please let me know about it.


Cheers
Lydia
-- 
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
Product Manager for Wikidata

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
10963 Berlin
www.wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.

Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/029/42207.
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