[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[matej_suchanek]

matej_suchanek added a comment.


  Not only is there inconsistency between Wikidata and Commons, but it also 
lies within Commons itself. When you `wbgetentities`, you get the 
claims/statements under "statements". But when you `wbeditentity`, you must 
**specify the claims/statements to add/remove/update under "claims"**! (Try it 
yourself.) This inconsistency is surprising and makes the development of 
API-based tools, like #pywikibot 
, really painful.

TASK DETAIL
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To: matej_suchanek
Cc: matej_suchanek, Maxlath, Mitar, Jopparn, Fuzheado, Alicia_Fagerving_WMSE, 
Cparle, John_Cummings, valerio.bozzolan, Esc3300, Jdforrester-WMF, Bene, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Ramsey-WMF, Keegan, Multichill, Magnus, matthiasmullie, 
Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, Lydia_Pintscher, daniel, hoo, Danny_Benjafield_WMDE, 
Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, toberto, Invadibot, maantietaja, FRomeo_WMF, 
CBogen, ItamarWMDE, Nintendofan885, Akuckartz, Nandana, JKSTNK, Lahi, Gq86, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[CBogen]

CBogen closed subtask T230315: [XL] Create a way to see and add references to 
structured data on Commons (MediaInfo) statements  as Resolved.
Restricted Application added a project: Structured-Data-Backlog.

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To: CBogen
Cc: Jopparn, Fuzheado, Alicia_Fagerving_WMSE, Cparle, John_Cummings, 
valerio.bozzolan, Esc3300, Jdforrester-WMF, Bene, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, 
Ramsey-WMF, Keegan, Multichill, Magnus, Addshore, matthiasmullie, Aklapper, 
Ladsgroup, aude, Lydia_Pintscher, daniel, hoo, toberto, Invadibot, maantietaja, 
FRomeo_WMF, CBogen, Nintendofan885, Akuckartz, Nandana, JKSTNK, Lahi, Gq86, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[John_Cummings]

John_Cummings added a comment.


  In T149410#7088952 , 
@Multichill wrote:
  
  > @Cparle @John_Cummings : Why are you discussion references in this task 
instead of in T230315  ? This task 
is about about serialization of the data and that the fact that we use two 
different keys (claims vs statements) for the same thing.
  
  I'll copy my answer over to the other task, sorry, didn't realise they were 
different

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To: John_Cummings
Cc: Jopparn, Fuzheado, Alicia_Fagerving_WMSE, Battleofalma, Cparle, 
John_Cummings, valerio.bozzolan, Esc3300, Jdforrester-WMF, Bene, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Ramsey-WMF, Keegan, Multichill, Magnus, Addshore, 
matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, Lydia_Pintscher, thiemowmde, daniel, 
hoo, Invadibot, maantietaja, FRomeo_WMF, CBogen, Nintendofan885, Akuckartz, 
Nandana, JKSTNK, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Multichill]

Multichill added a comment.


  @Cparle @John_Cummings : Why are you discussion references in this task 
instead of in T230315  ? This task 
is about about serialization of the data and that the fact that we use two 
different keys (claims vs statements) for the same thing.

TASK DETAIL
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To: Multichill
Cc: Jopparn, Fuzheado, Alicia_Fagerving_WMSE, Battleofalma, Cparle, 
John_Cummings, valerio.bozzolan, Esc3300, Jdforrester-WMF, Bene, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Ramsey-WMF, Keegan, Multichill, Magnus, Addshore, 
matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, Lydia_Pintscher, thiemowmde, daniel, 
hoo, Invadibot, maantietaja, FRomeo_WMF, CBogen, Nintendofan885, Akuckartz, 
Nandana, JKSTNK, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[John_Cummings]

John_Cummings added subscribers: Battleofalma, Alicia_Fagerving_WMSE, Fuzheado, 
Jopparn.
John_Cummings added a comment.


  Hi @Cparle thanks for replying. I know @Fuzheado @Alicia_Fagerving_WMSE  
@Jopparn @Battleofalma etc will also have thoughts on this.
  
  I'll give you my answer and let other expand on it. I'm basing this on 10 
years of working as Wikimedian in Residence for cultural institutions, UN 
agencies and parts of the EU. The main use case is from my perspective is for 
any content created by external organisations, which runs to 10s of millions of 
files on Commons. Many of these organisations share quite extensive metadata 
with their content way beyond depicts, copyright and author. The main benefits 
I see are the same as for references on Wikipedia, verifiability and credit.
  
  **Wikipedia** 
  Allowing users to know that the metadata comes from an organisation creates a 
level of trust in the information. I think SDC could be widely used and useful 
on Wikipedia but without references to provide verifiability it seems unlikely 
it will get used, in the same way Wikidata data without references are blocked 
on English Wikipedia infoboxes in a lot of situations. Another benefit for 
Wikipedia specifically is to make creating Wikipedia articles for things 
depicted on Commons (eg an object in a museum) easier because the references 
which are collated in SDC can most probably be reused on Wikipedia.
  
  **Organisations sharing content:** 
  Many organisations adopt an open license specifically so they can share it on 
Wikimedia projects, most of my job in the UN the last 5 years has been around 
helping orgs adopt open licenses. Generally speaking organisations who share 
content on Commons want recognition and metrics around page views and a clear 
delineation between their content and Wikimedia community contributions to 
avoid confusion from readers. Have references in SDC will give the 
organisations credit for the metadata they share and reduce concerns about 
their content being confused with community contributions which may be 
incorrect. It will also encourage them to start using Wikidata and SDC on their 
own website eg providing multilingual labels. There's an extra barrier to them 
adopting open licenses with the CC0 license for SDC statements, generally 
organisations are willing to share under CC BY or SA for content but CC0 is 
difficult because is doesn't by its nature give them credit for their content. 
We get around this with Wikidata because we can say 'there will be references 
so people can see you added this data'. Generally speaking 'please can you 
spend a significant amount of time to understand and change your license so you 
can share your content with us, we won't give you credit for any of it' is 
really not going to work.
  
  Hope this helps
  
  Thanks again

TASK DETAIL
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To: John_Cummings
Cc: Jopparn, Fuzheado, Alicia_Fagerving_WMSE, Battleofalma, Cparle, 
John_Cummings, valerio.bozzolan, Esc3300, Jdforrester-WMF, Bene, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Ramsey-WMF, Keegan, Multichill, Magnus, Addshore, 
matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, Lydia_Pintscher, thiemowmde, daniel, 
hoo, Invadibot, maantietaja, FRomeo_WMF, CBogen, Nintendofan885, Akuckartz, 
Nandana, JKSTNK, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Cparle]

Cparle added subscribers: John_Cummings, Cparle.
Cparle added a comment.


  @John_Cummings - structured data on a commons File page is for describing 
**the file**. For example:
  
  - what an image depicts
  - the copyright licence associated with the file
  - who created the file
  
  In this context I don't see a solid use case for references. We don't need a 
reference to say that an image depicts a fish, for example. An image might be a 
photo of a famous painting, but in that case we'd use the digital 
representation of  property to 
point at the wikidata item for the painting itself, and referenced information 
about the painting (rather than the image file) would be available in wikidata
  
  Is there something I'm missing? Had you a specific use case in mind?

TASK DETAIL
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To: Cparle
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Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Ramsey-WMF, Keegan, Multichill, Magnus, Addshore, 
matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, Lydia_Pintscher, thiemowmde, daniel, 
hoo, Invadibot, maantietaja, FRomeo_WMF, CBogen, Nintendofan885, Akuckartz, 
Nandana, JKSTNK, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[John_Cummings]

John_Cummings added a subtask: T230315: Allow adding references to structured 
data (MediaInfo) statements to SDC Structured Data on Commons.

TASK DETAIL
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To: John_Cummings
Cc: valerio.bozzolan, Esc3300, Jdforrester-WMF, Bene, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, 
Ramsey-WMF, Keegan, Multichill, Magnus, Addshore, matthiasmullie, Aklapper, 
Ladsgroup, aude, Lydia_Pintscher, thiemowmde, daniel, hoo, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, FRomeo_WMF, CBogen, Nintendofan885, Akuckartz, Nandana, JKSTNK, 
Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[John_Cummings]

John_Cummings added a comment.


  In T149410#5287189 , 
@Ramsey-WMF wrote:
  
  > The SDC team will follow the recommendations/decisions of the original 
authors (WMDE).
  >
  > We do believe, as Addshore mentioned above, that there's a strong 
possibility that the Commons model will end up not using references in the way 
that Wikidata does. We'll defer to WMDE for how that should be reflected in the 
serialization code.
  
  Hi all

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To: John_Cummings
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Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Ramsey-WMF, Keegan, Multichill, Magnus, Addshore, 
matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, Lydia_Pintscher, thiemowmde, daniel, 
hoo, Invadibot, maantietaja, FRomeo_WMF, CBogen, Nintendofan885, Akuckartz, 
Nandana, JKSTNK, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, 
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