[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[agray]

agray added a comment.


  @Delane13 It is possible to do this conversion within the SPARQL service - 
approximately, you would want something like this query 
,
 tweaking the calendar offsets as needed. It is a mess, but it does seem to 
work. Note that it's possible to retrieve the precision, it's just not 
default-displayed (much like calendars...)

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To: agray
Cc: Stinglehammer, Delane13, -jem-, AndrewNJ, Jc3s5h, Lydia_Pintscher, 
Epidosis, Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, 
Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Danny_Benjafield_WMDE, Astuthiodit_1, AWesterinen, 
karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, 
Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Xmlizer, jkroll, 
Wikidata-bugs, Jdouglas, aude, Tobias1984, Manybubbles, Mbch331
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Delane13]

Delane13 added a comment.


  In our case we have all our dates from the Julian calendar this means 
when our site is pulling the dates of Scottish witchcraft investigations from 
Wikidata, even though they are in Julian calendar, they are auto converted to 
Gregorian and displaying as such. We could write a script to reconvert back to 
Julian calendar but this seems a) an unnecessary extra step and b) is 
additionally complicated given that the auto conversion only seems to apply to 
date precisions of DD-MM-YY and not MM-YY (month-year only precision , which is 
still returned as a full date - 1644-07-01T00:00:00Z) and nor YY (year only 
precision ,which is returned in format 1662-01-01T00:00:00Z). This added 
complication means we'd need to figure out how to write a script to handle the 
precision issue as many of the thousands of dates we are displaying have 
different precisions (historical dates such as these means we sometimes only 
have a year to go by or a month and a year but happily there are many also with 
the full day-month-year precision). The nature of the format that the queries 
returns gives no indication of the precision therefore is hard to the 
distinguish when the precision is  MM-YY or when is actually the first of the 
moth (01-MM-YY). This complication makes it quite hard for a script to handle. 
Any input on a way forward would be beneficial as at the moment we are trying 
to work out how to undo the auto conversion (and handle all the precision 
exceptions) and display our dates in the Julian calendar as recorded.

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To: Delane13
Cc: Stinglehammer, Delane13, -jem-, AndrewNJ, Jc3s5h, Lydia_Pintscher, 
Epidosis, Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, 
Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Danny_Benjafield_WMDE, Astuthiodit_1, AWesterinen, 
karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, 
Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Xmlizer, jkroll, 
Wikidata-bugs, Jdouglas, aude, Tobias1984, Manybubbles, Mbch331
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Jc3s5h]

Jc3s5h added a comment.


  I won't take issue issue with Delane13 changing the priority. I do think the 
general case for visualizing data in time is that the data about the events was 
originally recorded in a mixture of calendars, and usually there will be a 
desire to retrieve the calendar information so all the results of a query are 
in the same calendar so that they can be compared to each other. I think it is 
commonplace among researchers to have to convert dates themselves into their 
desired calendar and format. When large amounts of data are being handled, I 
think researchers will need automated tools for calendar conversions.

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To: Jc3s5h
Cc: Stinglehammer, Delane13, -jem-, AndrewNJ, Jc3s5h, Lydia_Pintscher, 
Epidosis, Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, 
Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Danny_Benjafield_WMDE, Astuthiodit_1, AWesterinen, 
karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, 
Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Xmlizer, jkroll, 
Wikidata-bugs, Jdouglas, aude, Tobias1984, Manybubbles, Mbch331
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Delane13]

Delane13 added a comment.


  When running a query that collects dates such as this one : 
https://w.wiki/6rSi (Collects the date of death of accused witches).
  
  Date values in Wikidata using the Julian calendar are being 
displayed/converted to Gregorian calendar in the Wikidata Query service 
results. This 'conversion' is adding 10 days in the query results. e.g. if date 
of death = 4 January 1647 (Julian calendar) on Wikidata item (Q43395584) then 
it is displayed in query results as 1647-01-14T00:00:00Z. https://w.wiki/6rSi.
  
  This means lots of historical dates are being misrepresented through queries 
and is retrofitting a modern calendar onto historic temporal data. There is no 
way to extract  Julian dates from Wikidata.
  
  I am working on this website https://witches.is.ed.ac.uk/ which visualises 
data from the Survey of Scottish Witchcraft that has been added to Wikidata. It 
uses queries to extract infromation from Wikidata that is then visualised on 
our site. When this conversion is taking place the dates are being 
misunderstood by our users. For example, the accused witch Isobel Gowdie she 
lived and died under the Julian calendar and not the Gregorian calender.
  
  I think this is quite a serious problem for these reasons so I have changed 
the priority from Medium to High.

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To: Delane13
Cc: Stinglehammer, Delane13, -jem-, AndrewNJ, Jc3s5h, Lydia_Pintscher, 
Epidosis, Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, 
Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Danny_Benjafield_WMDE, Astuthiodit_1, AWesterinen, 
karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, 
Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Xmlizer, jkroll, 
Wikidata-bugs, Jdouglas, aude, Tobias1984, Manybubbles, Mbch331
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Delane13]

Delane13 raised the priority of this task from "High" to "Needs Triage".

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To: Delane13
Cc: Stinglehammer, Delane13, -jem-, AndrewNJ, Jc3s5h, Lydia_Pintscher, 
Epidosis, Manuel, Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, 
Mahir256, Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Danny_Benjafield_WMDE, Astuthiodit_1, 
AWesterinen, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, 
Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Xmlizer, jkroll, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Mahir256]

Mahir256 merged a task: T343789: When using the Query Service Julian Dates are 
getting converted to Gregorian Dates.
Mahir256 added subscribers: Delane13, Stinglehammer.

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To: Mahir256
Cc: Stinglehammer, Delane13, -jem-, AndrewNJ, Jc3s5h, Lydia_Pintscher, 
Epidosis, Manuel, Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, 
Mahir256, Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Danny_Benjafield_WMDE, Astuthiodit_1, 
AWesterinen, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, 
Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Xmlizer, jkroll, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Epidosis]

Epidosis raised the priority of this task from "Medium" to "High".

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To: Epidosis
Cc: -jem-, AndrewNJ, Jc3s5h, Lydia_Pintscher, Epidosis, Manuel, Jheald, agray, 
Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, Tagishsimon, Aklapper, 
Astuthiodit_1, AWesterinen, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, 
Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, 
EBjune, merbst, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Xmlizer, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Epidosis]

Epidosis added a comment.


  In my opinion this is a serious problem, since it falsifies a relevant amount 
of the dates extracted from Wikidata items through queries; and it is 
impossible to extract native Julian dates, but they can only be extracted in 
their conversion to Gregorian dates (that, being automatic, can be sometimes 
faulty). The solution proposed, viz. keeping Julian date in psv: and adopting 
psn: for automatic Gregorian conversion, seems very good to me.
  If there is no objection, I think this ticket should be raised to high 
priority.

TASK DETAIL
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To: Epidosis
Cc: -jem-, AndrewNJ, Jc3s5h, Lydia_Pintscher, Epidosis, Manuel, Jheald, agray, 
Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, Tagishsimon, Aklapper, 
Astuthiodit_1, AWesterinen, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, maantietaja, ItamarWMDE, 
Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, 
EBjune, merbst, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Xmlizer, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Jheald]

Jheald added a subscriber: Jc3s5h.
Jheald added a comment.


  Also raised in that discussion was ticket:  T207705 
  "Implement the Extended Date/Time 
Format Specification" (EDTF)
  
  EDTF  (info ) is an extension to ISO 
8601 (specifically, part of ISO 8601-2:2019), developed by the Library of 
Congress with other bibliographic institutions, which defines a format for 
serialising imprecise or complex dates into strings.   
  It is now increasingly in use in the wild -- for example in the cataloguing 
data of GLAM institutions, especially library systems; in applications like 
Zotero ; in communities such as the 
Citation Style Language  
community; and elsewhere.
  
  On the face of it (as @Jc3s5h has repeatedly noted on that ticket), 
implementing EDTF doesn't necessarily help with the Julian/Gregorian policy.  
EDTF is an exension of `xsd:dateTime`, and like `xsd:dateTime` an `edtf:EDTF` 
date by both //construction//  and //definition// represents a Gregorian date 
(or a more complex entity built from Gregorian dates).
  
  However, I suggest in this contribution 
 to that ticket (Jul 20, 
2022), there may be a way forward.  As well as implementing dates with an rdf 
dataype  `^^edtf:EDTF` , we could also instead give appropriate dates an 
alternate rdf datatype `^^wb:EDTF-J`.  These dates would be almost identical to 
the `^^edtf:EDTF` dates -- in fact the string parts would be exactly identical, 
representing the same Gregorian day or same range of Gregorian days -- but the 
different `^^wb:EDTF-J` datatype would represent a request, that the wdqs 
onscreen rendering could pick up on, to translate the date to the corresponding 
date in the Julian calendar and display that if possible.  (Similar to the 
meaning of `wikibase:timeCalendarModel` = Julian in a `wikibase:time` node; but 
the wdqs gui will not usually have access to that).
  
  It occurs to me that the same approach could be used for `xsd:dateTime` dates 
too, changing the RDF dump so that eg `wdt:P569`  statements were written with 
an RDF type `^^wb:dateTime-J` if one wanted to attach a request that they 
should be rendered as their Julian equivalent.
  
  I think this might be slightly more involved to implement (though I could be 
wrong), as I think one would want to make sure that the `^^wb:dateTime-J` dates 
were treated by Blazegraph internally in the same way as  `^^xsd:dateTime` 
dates (ie translated internally into milliseconds, and with functions like 
`day()` `month()` and `year()`. subtraction, `<`, and `>` all returning the 
same results.  But I could be wrong, and with the magic of subclassing in Java 
it might all be possible without too much pain, so I think could be worth 
investigating.
  
  Otherwise, failing that, if we did implement  `^^edtf:EDTF` and `^^wb:EDTF-J` 
as per T207705 , that could give a 
way to allow WDQS to correctly render and properly indicate Gregorian and 
Julian dates, at least for statements with triples with those datatypes.

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To: Jheald
Cc: Jc3s5h, Lydia_Pintscher, Epidosis, Manuel, Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, 
AWesterinen, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, MPhamWMF, maantietaja, CBogen, 
ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, EBjune, merbst, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Epidosis]

Epidosis added a comment.


  See related T159160 , mainly 
T159160#3096928 .

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To: Epidosis
Cc: Lydia_Pintscher, Epidosis, Manuel, Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, 
AWesterinen, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, MPhamWMF, maantietaja, CBogen, 
ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, EBjune, merbst, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.


  Suggestion from today's bug triage hour: create a new SERVICE that makes the 
date formatting and conversions easier by handling precision and calendar model 
instead of having to do it by hand in the query.

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To: Lydia_Pintscher
Cc: Lydia_Pintscher, Epidosis, Manuel, Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, 
AWesterinen, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, MPhamWMF, maantietaja, CBogen, 
ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, 
QZanden, EBjune, merbst, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Manuel]

Manuel added a comment.


  This task was discussed in the Bug Triage Hour at the Wikidata Data Quality 
Days 2022:
  
  - Julian dates reflected in a very confusing way on WDQS.
  - Considered harmful to data-checking, data re-use, data de-duplication, and 
data round-tripping.
  
  The task was also raised on Project Chat last month:
  
  - 
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2022/06#Please_help_with_popes

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To: Manuel
Cc: Manuel, Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, 
Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, AWesterinen, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
MPhamWMF, maantietaja, CBogen, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, 
Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, LawExplorer, _jensen, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Manuel]

Manuel added a project: Wikidata data quality and trust.

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To: Manuel
Cc: Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, 
Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, AWesterinen, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
MPhamWMF, maantietaja, CBogen, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, 
Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, LawExplorer, _jensen, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[agray]

agray added a comment.


  After looking at this afresh I think part of my first suggestion is moot: it 
is possible to get an indication of the calendar model in use for a given 
statement by using **wikibase:timeCalendarModel** (see eg https://w.wiki/5MPi 
for the "point in time" of the October Revolution, which currently has both 
Julian and Gregorian dates), I hadn't properly understood this.
  
  However the actual //value// given for both statements remains proleptic 
Gregorian - so you can't see the date as originally rendered for the user, and 
if you wanted to work out and display the Julian date for a user you would have 
to do something fancy like https://w.wiki/5MRj (hardcoding the offset based on 
the year). It would be great if this could be done server-side, though.
  
  As an alternative to TS's suggested pnn:xxx approach, I wonder if we could 
simply create something like a converted wikibase:timeValueJulian in addition 
to the wikibase:timeValue (since that is always Gregorian) and then queries 
could access it if appropriate? It would become a bit unwieldy if we supported 
many calendar formats, but I think for the forseeable future it seems we are 
likely to only have Julian.

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To: agray
Cc: Jheald, agray, Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, 
Tagishsimon, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, AWesterinen, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
MPhamWMF, maantietaja, CBogen, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, 
Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, LawExplorer, _jensen, 
rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Xmlizer, jkroll, Wikidata-bugs, Jdouglas, aude, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[Gehel]

Gehel triaged this task as "Medium" priority.

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Aklapper, CBogen, Akuckartz, darthmon_wmde, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, 
GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T246731: WDQS date handling produces errors for Julian dates

[agray]

agray added a comment.


  A way to get access in WDQS to "original calendar" values would really be 
helpful.
  
  At the moment, we're in an odd situation where the dates in WDQS are 
technically correct by ISO 8601 (I think), but most users interested in looking 
at historic data won't be familiar with the convention of ISO 8601, and will 
either use them without realising they're not being displayed in the calendar 
they expect, or spot that they're all wrong and get confused/irritated/etc. 
(Worse, people may change dates to be incorrectly marked as Gregorian in order 
to make them "show up" correctly. I haven't seen much of this, thankfully, but 
I am sure it does happen).
  
  I don't think defaulting to Gregorian is a problem in and of itself, but we 
do need a way to bypass it. Ideally, I think, what WDQS would be able to do is:
  
  - if asked, display a date in its //original// calendar schema, and tell you 
what that calendar is (either as an additional value or with something like the 
WD superscript)
  - if asked, render a date in a //specified// calendar schema, either Julian 
or Gregorian, and tell you which one is being displayed (either as an 
additional value or with something like the WD superscript)
  
  The first of these is the key problem, as it affects every pre-1582 date; for 
these, WDQS cannot currently display a human-readable date that is what a human 
would expect.
  
  The second would be really helpful during periods where some countries use it 
and some don't, as there will be queries where you're legitimately expecting a 
mix of calendars in the responses and (depending on context) may want to 
standardise a timeline on Julian rather than Gregorian. But it's not as vital.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T246731

EMAIL PREFERENCES
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/

To: agray
Cc: agray, Gehel, Toni_001, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, Mahir256, Tagishsimon, 
Aklapper, CBogen, Akuckartz, darthmon_wmde, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, 
GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, 
Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Xmlizer, jkroll, Wikidata-bugs, Jdouglas, aude, Tobias1984, 
Manybubbles, Mbch331
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