[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Bawolff]

Bawolff added a comment.


  In T289760#7874365 , 
@DD063520 wrote:
  
  > Hi, I saw the document, but I'm a bit confused. Because the criteria are 
basically checked for the shortlisted solutions. But in which part do you 
explain why for example Oxigraph was not shortlisted. I did not read the full 
document from start maybe i miss something, it's just to understand 
  
  It was on page 35. They basically said it was too early in its development.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[DD063520]

DD063520 added a comment.


  Hi, I saw the document, but I'm a bit confused. Because the criteria are 
basically checked for the shortlisted solutions. But in which part do you 
explain why for example Oxigraph was not shortlisted. I did not read the full 
document from start maybe i miss something, it's just to understand 

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To: DD063520
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Gehel, Thadguidry, Tpt, So9q, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, 
Invadibot, maantietaja, CBogen, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, 
Lahi, Gq86, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, 
LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, Scott_WUaS, Jonas, Xmlizer, jkroll, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[MPhamWMF]

MPhamWMF added a comment.


  @DD063520 , thanks for asking. Please refer to the attached paper for more 
details on the criteria we used to decide on our shortlist, which includes a 
note on Oxigraph: 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/WDQS_Backend_Alternatives_working_paper.pdf

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Gehel, Thadguidry, Tpt, So9q, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, 
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Lahi, Gq86, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[DD063520]

DD063520 added a comment.


  What is the reason Oxigraph was shortlisted? Is this documented somewhere?

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Gehel, Thadguidry, Tpt, So9q, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, 
Invadibot, maantietaja, CBogen, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[MPhamWMF]

MPhamWMF added a comment.


  I'm closing this task since Oxigraph is not on the shortlist of Blazegraph 
alternatives, as per 
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:SPARQL_query_service/WDQS_backend_update/WDQS_backend_alternatives

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Thadguidry, Tpt, So9q, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, CBogen, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[MPhamWMF]

MPhamWMF closed this task as "Declined".

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Thadguidry, Tpt, So9q, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, 
maantietaja, CBogen, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[MPhamWMF]

MPhamWMF lowered the priority of this task from "Medium" to "Low".

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Tpt, So9q, Aklapper, Astuthiodit_1, karapayneWMDE, Invadibot, MPhamWMF, 
maantietaja, CBogen, ItamarWMDE, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, 
Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Tpt]

Tpt updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Thadguidry]

Thadguidry added a comment.


  @BenAtOlive I think for bikeshedding or hand-waving discussions, you can just 
start an new discussion thread in Oxigraph's GitHub Discussions (not Issues).  
Here:  https://github.com/oxigraph/oxigraph/discussions

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Tpt]

Tpt added a comment.


  @Thadguidry @BenAtOlive It's a great idea to move the conversation somewhere 
else. Oxigraph has a discussion space 
 and a Gitter channel 
.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[BenAtOlive]

BenAtOlive added a comment.


  @Thadguidry - that's a very good point.  We've done the non-temporary N 
replica model with Fuseki before and have the pods fronted by an ALB, but this 
doesn't really distribute anything--it just gives some horizontal scalability.  
I don't want to take over this ticket with what I hope to be a good 
conversation, is there a better place on here to chat w/ you and @Tpt?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Thadguidry]

Thadguidry added a comment.


  As someone who has "been there, done that" (even with Apache Geode)...  I can 
tell you that **data locality** is very important when you want to maximize 
performance.  But if the data is maintained as distributed, then the only way 
to squeeze out improved performance is if you can temporarily have that **data 
locality** and that sometimes means temporary or ad hoc data 
replication...which has a cost itself but isn't insurmountable.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[BenAtOlive]

BenAtOlive added a comment.


  @Tpt - thank you for the detailed response.  I've been wondering about this 
lately, and the tradeoffs you outlined are definitely a strong reason to not do 
it.  Distributed SQL/NoSQL databases have proven to be quite powerful and it is 
inevitable to think can we build a distributed SPARQL database, but graph data 
is stored, retrieved, and optimized differently than the more popular/common 
paradigms.  If nothing else, I am eager to try Oxigraph in various topologies 
given the optimizations that you are currently working on!

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Tpt]

Tpt added a comment.


  @BenAtOlive If I understand correctly, you are asking if Oxigraph can be used 
to build a distributed SPARQL database with reader nodes and writer nodes? Its 
definitely possible to reuse Oxigraph components for that. For example I am 
currently moving the SPARQL parser  out of 
Oxigraph and I plan to add general SPARQL query optimizations to it. However, 
building a query evaluator against a distributed storage where data are not in 
the same machine as the one executing (or at least scheduling) the query is a 
quite different task as building a query executor against a single node 
database. Access latencies are easily an order of magnitude higher with a 
remote store and it changes quite a lot of tradeoffs. So, yes for making the 
part of Oxigraph that are easy to reuse reusable but sadly I am not sure that 
naively spliting the query evaluator out of Oxigraph would provide a good query 
evaluator on top of a distributed storage.

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Invadibot, MPhamWMF, maantietaja, CBogen, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[BenAtOlive]

BenAtOlive added a comment.


  @Tpt - is there a plan to decouple the Sled store and the query handlers in 
Oxigraph to allow the use case that @Thadguidry was asking about?  Under high, 
concurrent write situations (i.e. if writers to Oxigraph weren't limited to a 
constrained number that kept a suitable amount of READ threads available), I 
could see the desire for decoupling and Oxigraph seems to be the most natively 
close to decoupled from what I've seen :)

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Tpt]

Tpt added a comment.


  @Thadguidry Great! Thank you!
  
  @So9q Sadly it's not possible with Sled. But Sled and Oxigraph should both 
work fairly well with multiple parallel thread so updating data while serving 
query should work ok. I have started to run some benchmarks around it. I still 
need to polish them a bit before publishing them.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[So9q]

So9q added a comment.


  @Tpt is it possible to run a cluster of say 2 oxigraph instances on the same 
sled store?
  I could then manually update the sled store in some way and the changes are 
visible in both of the oxigraph endpoints?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[So9q]

So9q added a comment.


  @Tpt thanks for the corrections!

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[So9q]

So9q updated the task description.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Thadguidry]

Thadguidry added a comment.


  @Tpt Looks great!  The ROADMAP file was a suggested alternative to the 
Milestones, sorry didn't make that clear.  I much prefer grouping or tagging 
issues against Milestones as you have done!  You have the right idea regarding 
a single source of truth and exactly the best practices! Your a natural.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Tpt]

Tpt added a comment.


  @Thadguidry Hi! It's a great idea to improve the roadmap. Thank you for 
pushing me to do that! I have updated the GitHub issues and milestones 

 and added a link to them in the README: 
  Each milestone should now have a short description and a set of linked 
issues. Most of the issues have been connected to a milestones.
  I am a bit afraid of adding a ROADMAP file to the repository because it is 
yet another source of truth to maintain.
  To also keep a single source of truth I made the choice to not expand the 
milestone description too much and keep the detailed discussions inside of 
issues. Here is [one about the storage backend and Sled]( 
https://github.com/oxigraph/oxigraph
  /milestones?direction=desc=completeness=open). However, the 
milestone+connected issues descriptions should allow to make sense of the 
roadmap. Feel free to ping me if you believe it's not clear enough.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T289760

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To: Tpt
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CBogen, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, 
GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, EBjune, merbst, LawExplorer, _jensen, rosalieper, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Gehel]

Gehel triaged this task as "Medium" priority.
Gehel moved this task from All WDQS-related tasks to Scaling on the 
Wikidata-Query-Service board.
Gehel added a comment.


  The Search Platform team will dig into this when we start work on evaluating 
Blazegraph alternatives

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T289760

WORKBOARD
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/project/board/891/

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To: Gehel
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CBogen, Akuckartz, Nandana, Namenlos314, Lahi, Gq86, Lucas_Werkmeister_WMDE, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Thadguidry]

Thadguidry added a comment.


  Hi @Tpt Can you elaborate more in your Milestones and create more Milestone 
as necessary for your future vision?  Like what you mean by "no storage format 
stability for now", and what that really means to users and what you are 
thinking about in the long term towards solving that?
  Maybe a ROADMAP.md file in the repo might be good to add as a quick 
high-level overview, which then has links to Milestones (and perhaps make more 
future vision Milestone links, even if 2 years away, or just a dream but 
wrapped with practicality).
  https://github.com/oxigraph/oxigraph/milestones
  
  GitHub Milestones are a great place to capture your future vision (even if 
some of it never happens!)  You did great on the .3 Milestone description 
, but you are describing Sled 
 backend without giving the 
actual problem description or context that your thinking of solving with Sled 
? As you just did within here 
on Phabricator.)
  Could I ask you to perhaps frame up the general problems in the Milestones, 
what solutions your thinking of to solve them, and then add that detail using 
bullet points in the actual Milestone descriptions to give folks an idea of 
some of the ideas or features your thinking about.
  
  Thanks again for all that you do!

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T289760

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To: Thadguidry
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Tpt]

Tpt added a comment.


  Thank you @So9q for opening this task!
  
  Some comments:
  
  - Oxigraph is dual licensed under Apache2 or MIT, not under GPLv2.
  - Oxigraph plans to drop the RocksDB backend in the next release and focus on 
Sled. It will make the development easier.
  
  Some other possible pros and cons:
  
  Pro:
  
  - standalone (no need to deploy a set of services)
  
  Cons:
  
  - unstable (no guaranteed storage format stability)
  - no query optimizer (not implement yet)
  - single server system just like Blazegraph (no distribution)

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T289760

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[Maintenance_bot]

Maintenance_bot added a project: Wikidata.

TASK DETAIL
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[So9q]

So9q updated the task description.

TASK DETAIL
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[So9q]

So9q updated the task description.

TASK DETAIL
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[So9q]

So9q updated the task description.

TASK DETAIL
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[So9q]

So9q added a parent task: T206560: [Epic] Evaluate alternatives to Blazegraph.

TASK DETAIL
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] T289760: Evaluate Oxigraph as alternative to Blazegraph

[So9q]

So9q created this task.
So9q added a project: Wikidata-Query-Service.
Restricted Application added a subscriber: Aklapper.

TASK DESCRIPTION
  pros:
  
  - sparql 1.1 and sparql update
  - storage in RocksDB which is a scalable key-value store
  - gplv2
  - no enterprise version
  
  cons:
  
  - 1 person project https://github.com/oxigraph/oxigraph/graphs/contributors
  
  https://github.com/oxigraph/oxigraph

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T289760

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