Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry
On Mon, Aug 12, 2013 at 5:44 AM, Andrew Gray wrote: > > On Monday, 12 August 2013, Tom Morris wrote: > >> >> Is it intentional to restrict the definition to personal pseudonyms? >> That doesn't cover all uses of them For example, there are house >> pseudonyms used by publishing houses which are associated with a series and >> the publishing house contracts with writers to write effectively >> anonymously (although it's often known who they are). >> >> Another example of a relatively well known collective pseudonym is >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki There's a whole category >> of them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Collective_pseudonyms >> > Cases like this - where the pseudonym is a (collective) entity in itself - > would seem to be a good case for "member of" relationships - Henri Cartan > [is a member of] Nicholas Bourbaki as John Lennon [is a member of] the > Beatles. > > A free-text pseudonym for each of the Bourbaki authors would mean there's > no easy way to connect them to that other element in future. > That seems reasonable. Perhaps it would be worthwhile updating the property description for pseudonym to point people in the right direction so they don't make that mistake. Tom ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry
Hoi, When an item is a member of a list, the item is likely to be written differently dependent on the language and script. When there is a "free-text" referral, it loses its flexibility ... eg 靈高史達 is a member of the Beatles obviously Thanks, Gerard On 12 August 2013 11:44, Andrew Gray wrote: > Cases like this - where the pseudonym is a (collective) entity in itself - > would seem to be a good case for "member of" relationships - Henri Cartan > [is a member of] Nicholas Bourbaki as John Lennon [is a member of] the > Beatles. > > A free-text pseudonym for each of the Bourbaki authors would mean there's > no easy way to connect them to that other element in future. > > Andrew. > > > On Monday, 12 August 2013, Tom Morris wrote: > >> >> Is it intentional to restrict the definition to personal pseudonyms? >> That doesn't cover all uses of them For example, there are house >> pseudonyms used by publishing houses which are associated with a series and >> the publishing house contracts with writers to write effectively >> anonymously (although it's often known who they are). >> >> Another example of a relatively well known collective pseudonym is >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki There's a whole category >> of them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Collective_pseudonyms >> >> Tom >> > > > -- > - Andrew Gray > andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk > > ___ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry
Cases like this - where the pseudonym is a (collective) entity in itself - would seem to be a good case for "member of" relationships - Henri Cartan [is a member of] Nicholas Bourbaki as John Lennon [is a member of] the Beatles. A free-text pseudonym for each of the Bourbaki authors would mean there's no easy way to connect them to that other element in future. Andrew. On Monday, 12 August 2013, Tom Morris wrote: > > Is it intentional to restrict the definition to personal pseudonyms? That > doesn't cover all uses of them For example, there are house pseudonyms > used by publishing houses which are associated with a series and the > publishing house contracts with writers to write effectively anonymously > (although it's often known who they are). > > Another example of a relatively well known collective pseudonym is > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki There's a whole category > of them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Collective_pseudonyms > > Tom > -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry
Il giorno 12/ago/2013 05:26, "Tom Morris" ha scritto: > Is it intentional to restrict the definition to personal pseudonyms? That doesn't cover all uses of them For example, there are house pseudonyms used by publishing houses which are associated with a series and the publishing house contracts with writers to write effectively anonymously (although it's often known who they are). > > Another example of a relatively well known collective pseudonym is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki There's a whole category of them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Collective_pseudonyms > > Tom Well, quite intentional. I am perfectly aware that collective pseudonyms exist: one of the most important Italian writer is in fact a collective of writers, that started as "Luther Blissett", and that is now known as "Wu Ming". However the property does not - was not intended to - address those articles. It is reserved, so to say, to actors or writers or musicians who have a stage name and a real name, like Nicholas Cage or P.Diddy, in order to treat their pseudonym as a data. Luca "Sannita" ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry
On Sun, Aug 11, 2013 at 1:09 AM, Luca Martinelli wrote: > 2013/7/31 Andrew Gray : > > Hi Nicholas, > > > > a) Yes, it is about the person and the aliases together. As a general > > rule, it's one article per person, not per name. > > > > b) Different names is a quirk of the Wikipedia background - these > > default to the title of the Wikipedia article on that person, and > > there's no agreement on whether to put the article under the person or > > the more famous pseudonym. > > FYI, there is now a property for pseudonyms ( > http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P742 ). Is it intentional to restrict the definition to personal pseudonyms? That doesn't cover all uses of them For example, there are house pseudonyms used by publishing houses which are associated with a series and the publishing house contracts with writers to write effectively anonymously (although it's often known who they are). Another example of a relatively well known collective pseudonym is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki There's a whole category of them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Collective_pseudonyms Tom ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry
Yes, I think multiple identities attached to a single wikidata entity is the way to go forward. ~We talked about this briefly at Wikimania on Friday and the consensus was "still a bit unclear" ;-) Once qualifiers are properly up and running we might be able to mark them as "preferred" or "main" relation vs. secondary identifiers (the main VIAF cluster vs the isolated entries, for example) A. On Sunday, 11 August 2013, Luca Martinelli wrote: > 2013/7/31 Andrew Gray >: > > Hi Nicholas, > > > > a) Yes, it is about the person and the aliases together. As a general > > rule, it's one article per person, not per name. > > > > b) Different names is a quirk of the Wikipedia background - these > > default to the title of the Wikipedia article on that person, and > > there's no agreement on whether to put the article under the person or > > the more famous pseudonym. > > FYI, there is now a property for pseudonyms ( > http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P742 ). > > > d) I think the initial assumption was that there was a 1=1 match, but > > if there are multiple musicbrainz id's representing facets of the same > > entity, then Wikidata will support adding several. > > It is possible to put several IDs coming from the same database. > Actually, I'm trying to do this with multiple VIAF codes referring to > the same author, and it could also become a "feedback" to the original > database. > > -- > Luca "Sannita" Martinelli > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita > > ___ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry
2013/7/31 Andrew Gray : > Hi Nicholas, > > a) Yes, it is about the person and the aliases together. As a general > rule, it's one article per person, not per name. > > b) Different names is a quirk of the Wikipedia background - these > default to the title of the Wikipedia article on that person, and > there's no agreement on whether to put the article under the person or > the more famous pseudonym. FYI, there is now a property for pseudonyms ( http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property:P742 ). > d) I think the initial assumption was that there was a 1=1 match, but > if there are multiple musicbrainz id's representing facets of the same > entity, then Wikidata will support adding several. It is possible to put several IDs coming from the same database. Actually, I'm trying to do this with multiple VIAF codes referring to the same author, and it could also become a "feedback" to the original database. -- Luca "Sannita" Martinelli http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry
Freebase does the same as Wikidata -- and actually has five different MusicBrainz IDs associated https://www.freebase.com/m/01v_pj6?props=&lang=en&filter=%2Fcommon%2Ftopic%2Ftopic_equivalent_webpage It's worth noting however that this "one person, one entry" view isn't universal. Library cataloging practice is to treat pseudonyms separately, in the same way that you've already discovered MusicBrainz does. It's worth keeping this in mind when interacting with other modeling communities. Tom On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Nicholas Humfrey < nicholas.humf...@bbc.co.uk> wrote: > That is great, thanks for the clarification Andrew. > > I guess as a rule of thumb, the label of the entry in Wikipedia should > match label of the linked entry in MusicBrainz. > > nick. > > > -Original Message- > From: Andrew Gray > Date: Wednesday, 31 July 2013 12:59 > To: "Discussion list for the Wikidata project." > > Cc: Nicholas Humfrey > Subject: Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry > > >Hi Nicholas, > > > >a) Yes, it is about the person and the aliases together. As a general > >rule, it's one article per person, not per name. > > > >b) Different names is a quirk of the Wikipedia background - these > >default to the title of the Wikipedia article on that person, and > >there's no agreement on whether to put the article under the person or > >the more famous pseudonym. > > > >c) At the moment, yes, there would need to be separate Wikipedia > >pages. I think for the specific case of people with pseudonyms, > >Wikidata is likely to continue on a "one entity" rule even if we relax > >the Wikipedia requirement. > > > >d) I think the initial assumption was that there was a 1=1 match, but > >if there are multiple musicbrainz id's representing facets of the same > >entity, then Wikidata will support adding several. > > > >Andrew. > > > >On 31 July 2013 12:45, Nicholas Humfrey > >wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> Can you help me understand the scope of a Wikidata entry please? > >> > >> > >> What is this Wikidata entry for? > >> http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q272619 > >> > >> Is it for the person Norman Cook and all of his aliases? > >> Should that title be Fatboy Slim or Norman Cook? > >> Is it ok that it has different titles in different languages? > >> > >> Do there have to be separate Wikpedia pages before we can create > >>separate > >> Wikidata entities for the separate concepts? > >> > >> > >> In MusicBrainz there are three artists that point to the 'Norman Cook' > >> Wikipedia page: > >> > >> http://musicbrainz.org/artist/3150be04-f42f-43e0-ab5c-77965a4f7a7d > >> http://musicbrainz.org/artist/34c63966-445c-4613-afe1-4f0e1e53ae9a > >> http://musicbrainz.org/artist/ba81eb4a-0c89-489f-9982-0154b8083a28 > >> > >> Should they all be pointing at the same Wikidata entry too? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Is it ok that there is only a single MusicBrainz identifier in Wikidata? > >> How is that identifier chosen? > >> > >> > >> The problem that we are experiencing is that our Triplestore is merging > >> all these concepts together into a single entity and I am trying to work > >> out where to break the equivalence, or if it is even a problem. > >> > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> nick. > >> > >> > >> > >> - > >> http://www.bbc.co.uk > >> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and > >> may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless > >>specifically stated. > >> If you have received it in > >> error, please delete it from your system. > >> Do not use, copy or disclose the > >> information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender > >> immediately. > >> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails > >> sent or received. > >> Further communication will signify your consent to > >> this. > >> - > >> > >> ___ > >> Wikidata-l mailing list > >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > > > > > > >-- > >- Andrew Gray > > andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk > > > > - > http://www.bbc.co.uk > This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and > may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless > specifically stated. > If you have received it in > error, please delete it from your system. > Do not use, copy or disclose the > information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender > immediately. > Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails > sent or received. > Further communication will signify your consent to > this. > - > > ___ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry
That is great, thanks for the clarification Andrew. I guess as a rule of thumb, the label of the entry in Wikipedia should match label of the linked entry in MusicBrainz. nick. -Original Message- From: Andrew Gray Date: Wednesday, 31 July 2013 12:59 To: "Discussion list for the Wikidata project." Cc: Nicholas Humfrey Subject: Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry >Hi Nicholas, > >a) Yes, it is about the person and the aliases together. As a general >rule, it's one article per person, not per name. > >b) Different names is a quirk of the Wikipedia background - these >default to the title of the Wikipedia article on that person, and >there's no agreement on whether to put the article under the person or >the more famous pseudonym. > >c) At the moment, yes, there would need to be separate Wikipedia >pages. I think for the specific case of people with pseudonyms, >Wikidata is likely to continue on a "one entity" rule even if we relax >the Wikipedia requirement. > >d) I think the initial assumption was that there was a 1=1 match, but >if there are multiple musicbrainz id's representing facets of the same >entity, then Wikidata will support adding several. > >Andrew. > >On 31 July 2013 12:45, Nicholas Humfrey >wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Can you help me understand the scope of a Wikidata entry please? >> >> >> What is this Wikidata entry for? >> http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q272619 >> >> Is it for the person Norman Cook and all of his aliases? >> Should that title be Fatboy Slim or Norman Cook? >> Is it ok that it has different titles in different languages? >> >> Do there have to be separate Wikpedia pages before we can create >>separate >> Wikidata entities for the separate concepts? >> >> >> In MusicBrainz there are three artists that point to the 'Norman Cook' >> Wikipedia page: >> >> http://musicbrainz.org/artist/3150be04-f42f-43e0-ab5c-77965a4f7a7d >> http://musicbrainz.org/artist/34c63966-445c-4613-afe1-4f0e1e53ae9a >> http://musicbrainz.org/artist/ba81eb4a-0c89-489f-9982-0154b8083a28 >> >> Should they all be pointing at the same Wikidata entry too? >> >> >> >> >> >> Is it ok that there is only a single MusicBrainz identifier in Wikidata? >> How is that identifier chosen? >> >> >> The problem that we are experiencing is that our Triplestore is merging >> all these concepts together into a single entity and I am trying to work >> out where to break the equivalence, or if it is even a problem. >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> nick. >> >> >> >> - >> http://www.bbc.co.uk >> This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and >> may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless >>specifically stated. >> If you have received it in >> error, please delete it from your system. >> Do not use, copy or disclose the >> information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender >> immediately. >> Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails >> sent or received. >> Further communication will signify your consent to >> this. >> - >> >> ___ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l > > > >-- >- Andrew Gray > andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk - http://www.bbc.co.uk This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. - ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry
Hi Nicholas, a) Yes, it is about the person and the aliases together. As a general rule, it's one article per person, not per name. b) Different names is a quirk of the Wikipedia background - these default to the title of the Wikipedia article on that person, and there's no agreement on whether to put the article under the person or the more famous pseudonym. c) At the moment, yes, there would need to be separate Wikipedia pages. I think for the specific case of people with pseudonyms, Wikidata is likely to continue on a "one entity" rule even if we relax the Wikipedia requirement. d) I think the initial assumption was that there was a 1=1 match, but if there are multiple musicbrainz id's representing facets of the same entity, then Wikidata will support adding several. Andrew. On 31 July 2013 12:45, Nicholas Humfrey wrote: > Hello, > > Can you help me understand the scope of a Wikidata entry please? > > > What is this Wikidata entry for? > http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q272619 > > Is it for the person Norman Cook and all of his aliases? > Should that title be Fatboy Slim or Norman Cook? > Is it ok that it has different titles in different languages? > > Do there have to be separate Wikpedia pages before we can create separate > Wikidata entities for the separate concepts? > > > In MusicBrainz there are three artists that point to the 'Norman Cook' > Wikipedia page: > > http://musicbrainz.org/artist/3150be04-f42f-43e0-ab5c-77965a4f7a7d > http://musicbrainz.org/artist/34c63966-445c-4613-afe1-4f0e1e53ae9a > http://musicbrainz.org/artist/ba81eb4a-0c89-489f-9982-0154b8083a28 > > Should they all be pointing at the same Wikidata entry too? > > > > > > Is it ok that there is only a single MusicBrainz identifier in Wikidata? > How is that identifier chosen? > > > The problem that we are experiencing is that our Triplestore is merging > all these concepts together into a single entity and I am trying to work > out where to break the equivalence, or if it is even a problem. > > > Thanks! > > nick. > > > > - > http://www.bbc.co.uk > This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and > may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless > specifically stated. > If you have received it in > error, please delete it from your system. > Do not use, copy or disclose the > information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender > immediately. > Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails > sent or received. > Further communication will signify your consent to > this. > - > > ___ > Wikidata-l mailing list > Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
[Wikidata-l] Scope of a Wikidata entry
Hello, Can you help me understand the scope of a Wikidata entry please? What is this Wikidata entry for? http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q272619 Is it for the person Norman Cook and all of his aliases? Should that title be Fatboy Slim or Norman Cook? Is it ok that it has different titles in different languages? Do there have to be separate Wikpedia pages before we can create separate Wikidata entities for the separate concepts? In MusicBrainz there are three artists that point to the 'Norman Cook' Wikipedia page: http://musicbrainz.org/artist/3150be04-f42f-43e0-ab5c-77965a4f7a7d http://musicbrainz.org/artist/34c63966-445c-4613-afe1-4f0e1e53ae9a http://musicbrainz.org/artist/ba81eb4a-0c89-489f-9982-0154b8083a28 Should they all be pointing at the same Wikidata entry too? Is it ok that there is only a single MusicBrainz identifier in Wikidata? How is that identifier chosen? The problem that we are experiencing is that our Triplestore is merging all these concepts together into a single entity and I am trying to work out where to break the equivalence, or if it is even a problem. Thanks! nick. - http://www.bbc.co.uk This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. - ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
