Re: [WikiEN-l] Blocking / moderation

[stevertigo]

wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> Why care about what foundation-l does or doesn't do ?
> It's a silly place full of silly people :)

I did not know that.

-Stevertigo

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Re: [WikiEN-l] If anyone ever says Wikipedia is too deletionist

[WJhonson]

"Barack Obama is the head of household {{fact}}"
Michelle has that look in her eye.  Behind closed doors, do we really  know?
 
 
 
In a message dated 7/25/2009 7:16:22 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
foxyloxy.wikime...@gmail.com writes:

Barack  Obama 
is the head of the household and President of the United States. and  is 
a neutered male Portuguese Water Dog, or  Portie."


**An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
Steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323048x1201367271/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul
yExcfooterNO62)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Blocking / moderation

[WJhonson]

Why care about what foundation-l does or doesn't do ?
It's a silly place full of silly people :)
 
 
 
In a message dated 7/25/2009 8:40:00 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
stv...@gmail.com writes:

I have  been blocked from posting to foundation-l. No explanation has
been given.  It is my understanding that when individuals are blocked
from an open list,  the list moderator must give some kind of
explanation. In an open  discussion forum, it is appropriate to give
this notification  openly.

**An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy 
Steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323048x1201367271/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul
yExcfooterNO62)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Encyclopedia.com

[Falcorian]

Well... They didn't have articles on the first two things I checked, and for
the third thing they use one of our pictures. ;-)
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/electron.aspx

--Falcorian
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[WikiEN-l] Blocking / moderation

[stevertigo]

I have been blocked from posting to foundation-l. No explanation has
been given. It is my understanding that when individuals are blocked
from an open list, the list moderator must give some kind of
explanation. In an open discussion forum, it is appropriate to give
this notification openly.

As far as private explanations go, Austin Hair gave only the terse
"see my last post." His post there said nothing about blocking or
moderation. When Austin or one of the other invisible hands there can
openly explain the reasons for the block, and perhaps also identify
who ordered it, then we can get back into dealing with substantive
discussion, and not just playing games.

The simple issue with blocking, just as with the usage or reliance on
private communications to deal with issues on an open project, is that
these modalities run counter to the open philosophy this project was
founded on. I have a great deal of respect for most of the people who
currently deal with those private modalities, and I feel obligated to
correct their continued unprincipled usage.

Regards,
-Stevertigo

PS. Apologies if some feel this message belongs somewhere else, but I
would say the same thing about that same criticism.

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[WikiEN-l] The Nature of "Facts"

[Apoc 2400]

>
> The other day I ran across what is perhaps for me, one of the most bizarre 
> situations with references I've yet to encounter.
>
> Webster's has produced a book.? I found it in some random Google books 
> searches I was doing on a subject.? It states certain facts and a few of them 
> I knew to be without evidence, which made me wonder where they'd come from.? 
> After a few minutes of scanning back-and-forth I realized that their source 
> citation, which is only cited as (WP) stands for Wikipedia.
>
> Checking the Wikipedia article on the same subject, that "fact" is no longer 
> present.
>
> I hope we can all see what horror Webster has now unleashed upon us, by this 
> act of intellectual graffiti, not to mention amateurish citation.? They need 
> to be taken to the woodshed.
>
> This is not published by the "real" Merriam–Webster, but Icon Group
International. That is company that computer generate enourmous numbers of
useless books that fill up Google Books. These "Webster’s Quotations, Facts
and Phrases" books that are made from excerpts of Wikipedia articles are
especially annoying, as people who don't check their sources properly create
circular references. I search for these occasionally and remove them from
articles.
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Re: [WikiEN-l] If anyone ever says Wikipedia is too deletionist

[Ken Arromdee]

On Sat, 25 Jul 2009, David Gerard wrote:
> My point is that despite media publicity about "deletionists" and
> people on the fringes of Wikipedia getting annoyed at not being
> considered article-worthy ... we still include a wider range of stuff
> than (I think) any general encyclopedia ever before us, and no-one can
> seriously question that. And we do so to actual standards.

It's possible to be wider in some areas and narrower in others; even to be
narrower overall with a few specific exceptions.

I'm inclined to say that the article on Obama's dog is an exception, not the
rule.  It's not part of a large category (webcomics, episode articles, etc.)
that deletionists like to delete en masse.  Also, since it's related to Obama,
it's going to be preserved by Obama fans, and we've got lots of those who are
already watching the Obama-related articles.


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Comparing Wikipedia to other wikis

[Gwern Branwen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 7:26 AM, Carcharoth wrote:
> What were *you* searching for that meant you failed to find it?
>
> To be fair, using the word "comparing" instead of "comparison" in the
> search terms, means you fail to find it using Wikipedia's internal
> search function (though the Signpost article still pops up), but
> Google, it seems, can be clever and "comparing" still works.
>
> Carcharoth

The same search terms; when I searched, all the hits were for news
articles about when de was blocked by German courts (I didn't bother
to click through to see which incident exactly). I notice that even so
general a search term as 'english german wikipedia' now brings up the
occasional blog post comparing the two Wikipedias (though not
Elian's).

Given my past experience with Google's updating (eg
http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/92xdg/is_it_not_only_pointless_but_counterproductive_to/c0b96f3
), this would seem to be another example of searches rebalancing
Google's results. In the future, when I make claims about things that
can't be found in Google, perhaps I'd better start taking screenshots
so people don't think I'm making things up!

- --
gwern
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEAREKAAYFAkprRLIACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oINlACfRbkxv2tUtiTHB/gLp7FLaBxM
sngAoIIeASwz6eqnMX8OuD6ervQgORlr
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Re: [WikiEN-l] If anyone ever says Wikipedia is too deletionist

[David Gerard]

2009/7/25 The Cunctator :
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 8:21 AM, David Gerard  wrote:

>> Point them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_%28dog%29

> Seriously?? Are you arguing this kind of article shouldn't be in Wikipedia?
> Sheesh.


No, it just pushed my personal "wtf" button, not something I'd
actually advocate removing. The dog's famous enough.

My point is that despite media publicity about "deletionists" and
people on the fringes of Wikipedia getting annoyed at not being
considered article-worthy ... we still include a wider range of stuff
than (I think) any general encyclopedia ever before us, and no-one can
seriously question that. And we do so to actual standards.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] If anyone ever says Wikipedia is too deletionist

[The Cunctator]

Seriously?? Are you arguing this kind of article shouldn't be in Wikipedia?
Sheesh.

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 8:21 AM, David Gerard  wrote:

> Point them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_%28dog%29
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] If anyone ever says Wikipedia is too deletionist

[Steve Summit]

fl wrote:
> On Saturday, 25 July 2009 8:21 pm, David Gerard wrote:
> > Point them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_%28dog%29
>
> The current introduction raised my eyebrows.
> "Bo Obama (born October 9, 2008) is the Obama family dog.  Barack Obama 
> is the head of the household and President of the United States. and is 
> a neutered male Portuguese Water Dog, or Portie."
>
> If we cut off the first sentence, we learn some interesting facts about 
> Mr. Obama ;)

Fixed.  (No pun intended.)

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Re: [WikiEN-l] If anyone ever says Wikipedia is too deletionist

[fl]

On Saturday, 25 July 2009 8:21 pm, David Gerard wrote:
> Point them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_%28dog%29

The current introduction raised my eyebrows.
"Bo Obama (born October 9, 2008) is the Obama family dog.  Barack Obama 
is the head of the household and President of the United States. and is 
a neutered male Portuguese Water Dog, or Portie."

If we cut off the first sentence, we learn some interesting facts about 
Mr. Obama ;)

--
fl
admin @ enwiki


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Copyright question

[Carcharoth]

Some more blogs (including the one I mentioned in the last post):

http://lawclanger.blogspot.com/2009/07/its-not-often-that-copyright-cases-get.html

http://www.technollama.co.uk/national-portrait-gallery-copyright-row

http://www.francisdavey.co.uk/2009/07/national-portrait-gallery-photographs.html

http://blog.frankwales.com/2009/07/20/for-the-public-good/

One point I want to pick up from that last one.

In the comments, the blog author says:

"Dover Books has built a business that includes reprinting
out-of-copyright music scores. I have several of their books, such as
a volume of Brahms’s symphonies. But anyone else is able to publish
this same material, and it’s perfectly legal to download those same
Brahms scores from the International Music Score Library Project. That
this is so hasn’t prevented Dover from being able to sustain their
business model."

That is an incorrect analogy.

The equivalents here would be:

*"Download PD images from Commons" vs "download those same Brahms
scores from the International Music Score Library Project"

*"Buy book from the NPG shop" vs buy "volume of Brahms’s symphonies"
from Dover Books

*"Download NPG images and upload to Commons" vs "walk into Dover Books
offices and copy the manuscripts of their books and then print your
own copies of the books and give them away for free"

*"Pay tens of thousands of pounds for professional scans of NPG
pictures" vs "pay professional orchestra to perform Brahms's
symphonies and record them and sell the result

To my mind, the difference between a bog-standard point-and-click
photograph of a work of art and a detailed, archival scan, done in
such detail, and with care and due attention to lighting to capture
the essence of the work of art, is the difference between a mere copy
of a musical score, and the performance of that score by an orchestra.

Admittedly, the analogy might be being stretched to breaking point here.

But the blogs are good, so do read those!

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Copyright question

[Carcharoth]

On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Carcharoth wrote:



Some more blogs on this raised some interesting points. First I'll
quote what I said earlier, and then comment after it.

> Take a moment to think about what is involved in cataloguing and
> digitising a collection like that. I know the US public institutions
> have done just that (think Library of Congress), but it is certainly
> not cheap, not easy and not quick.
>
> I would hope it involved a lot more than pointing a camera at a
> portrait on a wall, even if you are mounting it on a tripod and using
> infrared technology as well. And where do you start on access to the
> library collections? If they are properly funded (not a given, I
> know), there is likely to be an array of hi-tech scanning machines and
> technologies used to produce the hi-resolution images. Think art
> restoration and preservation techniques. And a wide range of media and
> scanning techniques developed for those different media. 3D scanning
> techniques, scanning techniques for light-sensitive materials, ways to
> scan large portraits (the really big ones can be many feet across and
> be very heavy). Even producing a flatbed scan of a normal print or
> negative requires careful cleaning and scanning and then
> post-processing of the scan itself.

Now look at this blog and the comments on it:

http://lawclanger.blogspot.com/2009/07/its-not-often-that-copyright-cases-get.html

The comments that do a much better of job of explaining what I was
trying to say above are here:

http://lawclanger.blogspot.com/2009/07/its-not-often-that-copyright-cases-get.html?showComment=1248071156102#c5694161467475271524

http://lawclanger.blogspot.com/2009/07/its-not-often-that-copyright-cases-get.html?showComment=1248077825200#c4475862728183075889

http://lawclanger.blogspot.com/2009/07/its-not-often-that-copyright-cases-get.html?showComment=1248093363247#c1041052715360562279

http://lawclanger.blogspot.com/2009/07/its-not-often-that-copyright-cases-get.html?showComment=1248116087988#c6131818993353533685

Some quotes to give a taste of the arguments being put forward:

"A large format camera with a betterlight scanback is rigidly attached
to a display platform where the art is placed, along with the
lighting. All the camera movements, focus, etc, are fixed except a
rail allows the camera to be adjusted to match the measured depth of
the frame. Images of a calibration target are taken, then the art.
Basically scanner turned inside out and scaled up to a large size."

"there's actually quite a lot of skill required in using the system.
Each image require individual calibration, and an appropriate lighting
direction needs to be chosen. You wouldn't light a Turner in the same
way as a Van Gogh. So the NPG can argue that skill has been required."

"[C]opying technology has reached a stage now where exact replicas of
works of art can be created. The resulting digital files that drive
the 3D printers, or CNC machines to reproduce the work may be the
culmination of months of work and the expenditure of £1s."

"The HP system involves custom calibration and lighting to produce a
version of the image that gives a remarkably accurate 3D image of the
paint surface and texture; it takes a lot of time (a decade for the
permanent collection at the NG I think), costs a lot of money, needs
training of the operators and is used as the basis of the print on
demand system in the National Gallery shop."

Also here:

http://robmyers.org/weblog/2009/07/wikipedia-against-gallery-copyright-overreach.html#comment-2826

"Suppose the Van Gogh museum did produce high quality copies of their
collection, such copies would be a colossal public benefit, as would
the cost of creating the digitization. Now say those files leak out,
should the museum have any ability to stop someone from using those
files to produce and sell exact copies, and if they don't, if someone
can just snag their production data, what incentive do they have in
make the artifacts available in the first place? And so we return to
the NPG. Just how do they protect their investment in producing their
digital files?"

These issues of how to fund digitisation projects and what protection
should be afforded, if any, are not going to go away.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] If anyone ever says Wikipedia is too deletionist

[geni]

2009/7/25 David Gerard :
> Point them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_%28dog%29
>
>
> - d.

US Presidential pets are well established as being notable. Downing
Street cats are probably notable although only the most recent two
have articles and the original Chief Mouser to the Cabinet Office does
not.



-- 
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] If anyone ever says Wikipedia is too deletionist

[Carcharoth]

On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 1:21 PM, David Gerard wrote:
> Point them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_%28dog%29

:-)

I don't think anyone could !vote delete for such a cute little dog!

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] a site that falls on its face when tested

[Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]

WereSpielChequers wrote:
> I'd say it is a "site that falls on its face when tested". I ran several
> searches in it for minor articles in Wikipedia, in some cases the ads that
> came up were relevant but there was no relevant information. Then I tried
> their Easter Island article, which in my view gives more info than we do on
> some of the fringe theories  "The stones were moved from quarry to ahu using
> ancient secrets known to the Lemurians, perhaps involving levitation or the
> secret for liquifying stone." And omits some of the info we have as to how
> archaeologists believe the statues were carved.
>   

Well, just to be fair, most of the archaelogists theories have
nearly zero corroborating evidence in support, merely being
"OR" by people supposedly better positioned to argue the
case.

That is to say archeologists "beliefs" are supported by very
scant genuine evidence, just by "educated" hunches, which
should'nt be the the thing that wikipedia reifies any more
than tinfoil hattery. The standard on reporting should be the
widespreadedness of theories, precisely because the most
widespread theories that are based on fallacious premises
should have as reasonable and authoritative rebuttal as
possible at a website as reliable as possible (in some cases
that would be Wikipedia).


Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen



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[WikiEN-l] a site that falls on its face when tested

[WereSpielChequers]

I'd say it is a "site that falls on its face when tested". I ran several
searches in it for minor articles in Wikipedia, in some cases the ads that
came up were relevant but there was no relevant information. Then I tried
their Easter Island article, which in my view gives more info than we do on
some of the fringe theories  "The stones were moved from quarry to ahu using
ancient secrets known to the Lemurians, perhaps involving levitation or the
secret for liquifying stone." And omits some of the info we have as to how
archaeologists believe the statues were carved.

WereSpielChequers


>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:37:29 -0500
> From: "kgnp...@gmail.com" 
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Encyclopedia.com
> To: "English Wikipedia" 
> Message-ID: <4a6a61dc.c5c2f10a.6d9e.5...@mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I think that I was taught in school to never use any encyclopedia as a
> reference work, and that others should learn the same instead
>
> -- Sent from my Palm Pre
> wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
>
> About us
> http://www.encyclopedia.com/about.aspx
> "Other Web sites that allow anyone to rewrite reference entries can be
> fun. But when you need credible information from reliable sources you
> can cite, Encyclopedia.com (www.encyclopedia.com) is the place to go. "
>
> "Encyclopedia.com is owned and operated by HighBeam Research. "
>
> What do others think.  Is this site merely another fluffy, we're better
> than you, site that falls on its face when tested?
>
> Will Johnson
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[WikiEN-l] If anyone ever says Wikipedia is too deletionist

[David Gerard]

Point them at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_%28dog%29


- d.

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