Re: [WikiEN-l] attitude- elderly man googling
> It's not that there is bad behaviour that's okay with men and not okay > with > women. It's that women may notice it earlier or be more upset by it, more > likely to be seen as "thin-skinned," rather than legitimately sensitive. > In > an environment that had more women, certain kinds of sensitivity (if that > is the right word) would be the norm. > > Sarah True, no question. Fred ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] attitude- elderly man googling
On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 3:29 PM, David Gerard wrote: > On 9 September 2012 22:20, Kathleen McCook wrote: > > > I sense the raised (ironic) eyebrow in this question and since you know > > the answer, I need not tell you, > > > I think it was a genuine question, and one I had too. It's not that there is bad behaviour that's okay with men and not okay with women. It's that women may notice it earlier or be more upset by it, more likely to be seen as "thin-skinned," rather than legitimately sensitive. In an environment that had more women, certain kinds of sensitivity (if that is the right word) would be the norm. Sarah ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] attitude- elderly man googling
On 9 September 2012 22:20, Kathleen McCook wrote: > I sense the raised (ironic) eyebrow in this question and since you know > the answer, I need not tell you, I think it was a genuine question, and one I had too. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] attitude- elderly man googling
I sense the raised (ironic) eyebrow in this question and since you know the answer, I need not tell you, On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Martijn Hoekstra wrote: > This is quite interesting in the light of engaging a female editorship. > Could you give examples of behaviours that drive off female potential > editors, but are ok with male prospective editors? > On Sep 9, 2012 10:57 AM, "Kathleen McCook" wrote: > > > The Wikipedia community fosters a young male zeitgeist.This IS an > attitude > > problem that causes women to drop out. I have been a long time low level > > contributor and thus have had a variety of response to efforts I have > made. > > Persistence has shown me that what one editor sees as "not credible" may > be > > that particular editor's world view and a contributor--CANNOT, EVER- > change > > the mind of most editors. So one needs to give up on that point, even if > > you have gone to primary sources and have them on your table in front of > > you. You have to move on. However, this resigned way of working w/in > > Wikipedia is not going to be the way that many people approach it. > Rebuffed > > or being called "not credible" will mean we lose many contributors. It > > should not be on the contributor to understand the editor. Contributors > > come from all ages and societies. There are far fewer women contributing > > than men. Why? Women take the harsh rebukes with more hurt. Really. > > > > I am a teacher and suggest that students write for Wikipedia. Invariably > > the female students have been made to feel stupid by editors and won't > go > > back. The male students are more likely to keep at it. This is the > culture > > that Wikipedia fosters. There are many exceptions….but generally, the > tone > > could be less harsh in dealing with contributors. > > > > == > > > > On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 11:35 AM, David Gerard wrote: > > > > > On 8 September 2012 15:43, Thomas Morton > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I haven't had chance to look into this; > > > > > > > > > That statement invalidates this statement: > > > > > > > > > > Rather than whining about him we need to see the problem; it's an > > > > attitude problem HERE. > > > > > > > > > -d. > > > > > > > > ___ > > WikiEN-l mailing list > > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > > ___ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] attitude- elderly man googling
On 9 September 2012 18:51, Martijn Hoekstra wrote: > This is quite interesting in the light of engaging a female editorship. > Could you give examples of behaviours that drive off female potential > editors, but are ok with male prospective editors? > > Not a sensible formulation. We know reasonably well what women don't like: "being yelled at". Being male doesn't by itself make being yelled at acceptable. For our civility scoff-laws, perhaps it just generates adrenaline, but they are not representative of the male gender as a whole. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] attitude- elderly man googling
This is quite interesting in the light of engaging a female editorship. Could you give examples of behaviours that drive off female potential editors, but are ok with male prospective editors? On Sep 9, 2012 10:57 AM, "Kathleen McCook" wrote: > The Wikipedia community fosters a young male zeitgeist.This IS an attitude > problem that causes women to drop out. I have been a long time low level > contributor and thus have had a variety of response to efforts I have made. > Persistence has shown me that what one editor sees as "not credible" may be > that particular editor's world view and a contributor--CANNOT, EVER- change > the mind of most editors. So one needs to give up on that point, even if > you have gone to primary sources and have them on your table in front of > you. You have to move on. However, this resigned way of working w/in > Wikipedia is not going to be the way that many people approach it. Rebuffed > or being called "not credible" will mean we lose many contributors. It > should not be on the contributor to understand the editor. Contributors > come from all ages and societies. There are far fewer women contributing > than men. Why? Women take the harsh rebukes with more hurt. Really. > > I am a teacher and suggest that students write for Wikipedia. Invariably > the female students have been made to feel stupid by editors and won't go > back. The male students are more likely to keep at it. This is the culture > that Wikipedia fosters. There are many exceptions….but generally, the tone > could be less harsh in dealing with contributors. > > == > > On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 11:35 AM, David Gerard wrote: > > > On 8 September 2012 15:43, Thomas Morton > > wrote: > > > > > I haven't had chance to look into this; > > > > > > That statement invalidates this statement: > > > > > > > Rather than whining about him we need to see the problem; it's an > > > attitude problem HERE. > > > > > > -d. > > > > > ___ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] attitude- elderly man googling
Everybody here who contributes runs into a brick wall from time to time and has to give up regarding some matter. The factual basis of the theory about gender you're advancing is not established; as everyone experiences the same frustrations. I've tried to edit certain articles controlled by point of view editors, doggedly advancing good sources while they relied on biased sources and been completely defeated. All it takes is two or three independent and determined point of view pushers and you're done. It does make you want to give up, fork the project, and rant and rave. Molly Ivins would be a good model for women editors. She didn't give up; she raised hell, and made everyone laugh doing it. Fred > The Wikipedia community fosters a young male zeitgeist.This IS an > attitude > problem that causes women to drop out. I have been a long time low level > contributor and thus have had a variety of response to efforts I have > made. > Persistence has shown me that what one editor sees as "not credible" may > be > that particular editor's world view and a contributor--CANNOT, EVER- > change > the mind of most editors. So one needs to give up on that point, even if > you have gone to primary sources and have them on your table in front of > you. You have to move on. However, this resigned way of working w/in > Wikipedia is not going to be the way that many people approach it. > Rebuffed > or being called "not credible" will mean we lose many contributors. It > should not be on the contributor to understand the editor. Contributors > come from all ages and societies. There are far fewer women contributing > than men. Why? Women take the harsh rebukes with more hurt. Really. > > I am a teacher and suggest that students write for Wikipedia. Invariably > the female students have been made to feel stupid by editors and won't > go > back. The male students are more likely to keep at it. This is the > culture > that Wikipedia fosters. There are many exceptions .but generally, the > tone > could be less harsh in dealing with contributors. > > == > > On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 11:35 AM, David Gerard wrote: > >> On 8 September 2012 15:43, Thomas Morton >> wrote: >> >> > I haven't had chance to look into this; >> >> >> That statement invalidates this statement: >> >> >> > Rather than whining about him we need to see the problem; it's an >> > attitude problem HERE. >> >> >> -d. >> >> > ___ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] attitude- elderly man googling
The Wikipedia community fosters a young male zeitgeist.This IS an attitude problem that causes women to drop out. I have been a long time low level contributor and thus have had a variety of response to efforts I have made. Persistence has shown me that what one editor sees as "not credible" may be that particular editor's world view and a contributor--CANNOT, EVER- change the mind of most editors. So one needs to give up on that point, even if you have gone to primary sources and have them on your table in front of you. You have to move on. However, this resigned way of working w/in Wikipedia is not going to be the way that many people approach it. Rebuffed or being called "not credible" will mean we lose many contributors. It should not be on the contributor to understand the editor. Contributors come from all ages and societies. There are far fewer women contributing than men. Why? Women take the harsh rebukes with more hurt. Really. I am a teacher and suggest that students write for Wikipedia. Invariably the female students have been made to feel stupid by editors and won't go back. The male students are more likely to keep at it. This is the culture that Wikipedia fosters. There are many exceptions….but generally, the tone could be less harsh in dealing with contributors. == On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 11:35 AM, David Gerard wrote: > On 8 September 2012 15:43, Thomas Morton > wrote: > > > I haven't had chance to look into this; > > > That statement invalidates this statement: > > > > Rather than whining about him we need to see the problem; it's an > > attitude problem HERE. > > > -d. > > ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
