Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
2009/4/5 Oskar Sigvardsson oskarsigvards...@gmail.com: I think it's very clear that wikipedia has developed a very successful model, not least because many other wikis seem to almost automatically adopt our style and policies. In short: Wikipedia Works. NPOV is our key innovation. Much more radical than letting anyone edit the website. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 1:36 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: NPOV is our key innovation. Much more radical than letting anyone edit the website. Two things which, incidentally, go hand in hand. NPOV would be virtually impossible to achieve without open and public debate about every single damn sentence. --Oskar ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
2009/4/5 Oskar Sigvardsson oskarsigvards...@gmail.com: I think it's very clear that wikipedia has developed a very successful model, not least because many other wikis seem to almost automatically adopt our style and policies. In short: Wikipedia Works. NPOV is our key innovation. Much more radical than letting anyone edit the website. - d. Saying NPOV is our key innovation is the equivalent of saying gaming the system is our key innovation. NPOV is only the game board. Interest groups who play well win favorable treatment of their point of view. Fred ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 1:36 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: NPOV is our key innovation. Much more radical than letting anyone edit the website. Two things which, incidentally, go hand in hand. NPOV would be virtually impossible to achieve without open and public debate about every single damn sentence. --Oskar NPOV, taken seriously, is impossible to achieve. But that is not the problem, NPOV is a process which is subject to manipulation by organized interest groups. Very few articles on Wikipedia about significant contested issues come close to the goal of being NPOV. There are winners who have played the game successfully and have succeeded in imposing their point of view on key articles in a major reference work. Fred ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
Yes, but failures to present a complete spectrum of points of view can be balanced by including a NPOV article imported from Wikipedia. Or, indeed, by linking to the editorial pages of major newspapers from an NPOV article *on* Wikipedia... -- That would be true if it were not for the campaign to delete external links and discourage their addition. Fred ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: Yes, but failures to present a complete spectrum of points of view can be balanced by including a NPOV article imported from Wikipedia. Or, indeed, by linking to the editorial pages of major newspapers from an NPOV article *on* Wikipedia... -- That would be true if it were not for the campaign to delete external links and discourage their addition. I think this campaign has passed me by... -- Sam PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
2009/4/5 Fred Bauder fredb...@fairpoint.net: The obvious alternative is to allow point of view editing but structure the wiki to include articles from diverse points of view, not an innovation, editorial pages of major newspapers are typically structured in that way. I'd say that's not serving what the readers want, seeing Wikipedia vs Wikinfo, where you tried implementing this. Not that Wikinfo is worthless, but Wikipedia is doing very well as somewhere that neutrality is at least attempted. NPOV is not an attainable goal, but it is a reliable compass to follow. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
Sam Korn wrote: On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 12:36 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/4/5 Oskar Sigvardsson oskarsigvards...@gmail.com I think it's very clear that wikipedia has developed a very successful model, not least because many other wikis seem to almost automatically adopt our style and policies. In short: Wikipedia Works. NPOV is our key innovation. Much more radical than letting anyone edit the website. I agree. The only way a wiki that says anyone can edit can work is with NPOV. You can either enforce a POV by banning people who don't share your point of view, or you can explicitly endorse *no-one's* point of view. An enforced POV cannot really be neutral. (Similarly, NPOV would be extremely difficult to manage with a small base of users as discussion (and, to some extent, conflict) is essential.) Not really, in a paradoxical way. Many rarely visited articles on non-controversial subjects already achieve that neutrality. An unchallenged article written by a single person is neutral at the moment it is written, and remains so until challenged. If the content is outrageous that neutrality will seldom last more than a few minutes. Ec ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 10:12 PM, Ray Saintonge sainto...@telus.net wrote: Sam Korn wrote: On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 12:36 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/4/5 Oskar Sigvardsson oskarsigvards...@gmail.com I think it's very clear that wikipedia has developed a very successful model, not least because many other wikis seem to almost automatically adopt our style and policies. In short: Wikipedia Works. NPOV is our key innovation. Much more radical than letting anyone edit the website. I agree. The only way a wiki that says anyone can edit can work is with NPOV. You can either enforce a POV by banning people who don't share your point of view, or you can explicitly endorse *no-one's* point of view. An enforced POV cannot really be neutral. Exactly. My dilemma is between an enforced POV and no POV (i.e. NPOV). (Similarly, NPOV would be extremely difficult to manage with a small base of users as discussion (and, to some extent, conflict) is essential.) Not really, in a paradoxical way. Many rarely visited articles on non-controversial subjects already achieve that neutrality. An unchallenged article written by a single person is neutral at the moment it is written, and remains so until challenged. If the content is outrageous that neutrality will seldom last more than a few minutes. But on other articles it would be plain impossible, the general point I was aiming at. -- Sam PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
On Sun, 5 Apr 2009 08:13:23 -0600 (MDT), Fred Bauder wrote: Wikipedia works like Wall Street works, Not exactly the most auspicious example to use these days... -- == Dan == Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/ Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/ Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
2009/4/4 Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com: The only regret I personally have about that one, is that Jimbo missed the one big opening at a knock-out punch vis a vis citizendium. I don't. Citizendium can't harm Wikipedia, but Wikipedia could harm Citizendium. And that would be bad. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 10:24 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/4/4 Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com: The only regret I personally have about that one, is that Jimbo missed the one big opening at a knock-out punch vis a vis citizendium. I don't. Citizendium can't harm Wikipedia, but Wikipedia could harm Citizendium. And that would be bad. On that note, is there a good summary anywhere of the forks and similar projects (i.e. encyclopedias) anywhere? Not so much a summary in a Wikipedia article, but more a critical look at the timescales, size, and quality of various spinter projects or attempts to do something different. The only ones I can remember at the moment are Citizendium, Veropedia, and Epistemia. Is Wikinfo something separate or a fork? Various other projects have since forked from Wikipedia for editorial reasons. Wikinfo does not require a neutral point of view and allows original research. New Wikipedia-inspired projects — such as Citizendium, Scholarpedia, Conservapedia, and Google's Knol — have been started to address perceived limitations of Wikipedia, such as its policies on peer review, original research, and commercial advertising. OK, so the list is: Citizendium (article) Veropedia (article) Epistemia (no article) Wikinfo (article deleted) Scholarpedia (article) Conservapedia (article) Knol (article) See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_encyclopedias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Online_encyclopedias Wow, a really fascinating category here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Knowledge_markets Knowledge markets provide means and venue for discovering and sharing knowledge resources among individuals and organizations. Article is interesting as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_market Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
David Gerard wrote: 2009/4/4 Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com: The only regret I personally have about that one, is that Jimbo missed the one big opening at a knock-out punch vis a vis citizendium. I don't. Citizendium can't harm Wikipedia, but Wikipedia could harm Citizendium. And that would be bad. I think you vastly over-rate the influence wikipedia has on anything. Specifically what influence words by Jimbo have. If pressed I would say that wikipedia does not gain from diminution of citizendium, even though it unfortunately won't even gain from having an effective loyal opposition in the form of citizendium. My judgment is that citizendium is vastly more dysfunctional than wikipedia, and as such largely irrelevant, even as a check and balance. I do however in the larger scheme of things think that having a credible fork of the English wikipedia at this stage of its life-cycle wouldn't be counter-productive, ghod knows somebody needs to keep it honest. But I have very little hope of that happening in a form that is genuine, and not just a mocker. Yours, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
Ray Saintonge wrote: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote: I do however in the larger scheme of things think that having a credible fork of the English wikipedia at this stage of its life-cycle wouldn't be counter-productive, ghod knows somebody needs to keep it honest. But I have very little hope of that happening in a form that is genuine, and not just a mocker. Agreed. At least in theory it counter-balance the rule-oriented and corporatist tendencies that have developed. The difficulty is that it would take a lot of resources and tenacity to pull this off. Ec ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l At this stage, I'd say that the odds of a successful fork are roughly nil. The problem for a fork is that it is immediately competes with wikipedia, and is offering a product that the average reader or contributor will probably not differentiate much from wikipedia. If it takes the whole database, it won't have enough initial users to maintain it. If it doesn't, then why would anyone use it when they have wikipedia? The only real hope for a competitor would be one that offered something substantially different to both reader and writer. Only then can it overcome the motivation problem of getting people interested in an initially small project, when there's the giant wikipedia available. The ingredients of a different product are there: Contributors could be offered motivation in things like 1) promises of ad-revenue share. 2) meaningful attribution, where you can personally take the kudos of writing a superb article into the real world (CV etc.). 3) Ability to publish original research. 4) Ability to reflect a POV. Readers could be offered things like: 1) useful commercial links (people interested in this topic might like to buy the following books) 2) a more reliable - stable product 3) a more child friendly product. 4) ability to know the qualifications - or even online reputation - of the author. 5) ability to read articles written from a POV you share. Now, some of those attributes were offered by veropedia, some by Citenzium, or Conservapedia, and some by others. Some are obviously incompatible, or possibly infeasible, and so far no one has found a recipe to combine any of them successfully. (I'd class all current offerings as failed or failing). However given that the rewards for success here could be remarkably high, I'd suggest that there will be more attempts in coming years, and possibly by very well-resourced players (Wikipedia is vulnerable in that the WMF is underfunded - what happens if a competitor goes for advertising with a massive publicity budget could be interesting). It is not beyond possibility that someday someone will stumble on a formula that works, and will either complement or overshadow wikipedia. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
geni wrote: 2009/4/4 doc doc.wikipe...@ntlworld.com: Contributors could be offered motivation in things like 1) promises of ad-revenue share. 2) meaningful attribution, where you can personally take the kudos of writing a superb article into the real world (CV etc.). 3) Ability to publish original research. 4) Ability to reflect a POV. If we look at the more successful wikis however the only successful ones appear to be allowing original research, Some level of POV and totaly non wikipedia style. TVTropes is probably the best example. I do not assume that a future competitor to wikipedia will be a wiki. Indeed I doubt anyone could compete on that basis. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:55 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.bigoakinc.com/blog/interview-with-wikipedia-founder-jimmy-wales/ - d. 'I think the whole debate is silly. Ironically, I think Larry is given too little credit for his role in the early days of Wikipedia as the “editor-in-chief” of the project (his actual title). He was an employee working fully under my direction with no ownership interest of any kind.' What a very legalistic answer. -- gwern signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
David Gerard wrote: http://www.bigoakinc.com/blog/interview-with-wikipedia-founder-jimmy-wales/ A very nice and reflective interview, waxing philosophical. The only regret I personally have about that one, is that Jimbo missed the one big opening at a knock-out punch vis a vis citizendium. Citizendiums narrative and engaging the reader style does in fact sound good in theory, and it could work, if the people writing citizendium were actually good at narratives; but in fact they are not. Mostly it falls flat in a stupendously comic fashion. Witness for instance the citizendium article on imaginary numbers. The narrative voice there grates as if there was a Sunday school supervisor reading text to wee bairns and smiling every three words, to emphasize that we so love this stuff, ain't it cute and cuddly, these imaginary numbers, stuff and golly-winks. Yours, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
Very few academics are actually good textbook writers; they usually need extensive help from editors who know the art. David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com wrote: David Gerard wrote: http://www.bigoakinc.com/blog/interview-with-wikipedia-founder-jimmy-wales/ A very nice and reflective interview, waxing philosophical. The only regret I personally have about that one, is that Jimbo missed the one big opening at a knock-out punch vis a vis citizendium. Citizendiums narrative and engaging the reader style does in fact sound good in theory, and it could work, if the people writing citizendium were actually good at narratives; but in fact they are not. Mostly it falls flat in a stupendously comic fashion. Witness for instance the citizendium article on imaginary numbers. The narrative voice there grates as if there was a Sunday school supervisor reading text to wee bairns and smiling every three words, to emphasize that we so love this stuff, ain't it cute and cuddly, these imaginary numbers, stuff and golly-winks. Yours, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview
Sounds a lot like Simple English Wikipedia. bibliomaniac15 --- On Fri, 4/3/09, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com wrote: From: Jussi-Ville Heiskanen cimonav...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Jimbo interview To: English Wikipedia wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org Date: Friday, April 3, 2009, 6:13 PM David Gerard wrote: http://www.bigoakinc.com/blog/interview-with-wikipedia-founder-jimmy-wales/ A very nice and reflective interview, waxing philosophical. The only regret I personally have about that one, is that Jimbo missed the one big opening at a knock-out punch vis a vis citizendium. Citizendiums narrative and engaging the reader style does in fact sound good in theory, and it could work, if the people writing citizendium were actually good at narratives; but in fact they are not. Mostly it falls flat in a stupendously comic fashion. Witness for instance the citizendium article on imaginary numbers. The narrative voice there grates as if there was a Sunday school supervisor reading text to wee bairns and smiling every three words, to emphasize that we so love this stuff, ain't it cute and cuddly, these imaginary numbers, stuff and golly-winks. Yours, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
