Re: [Wikimania-l] Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach
I think we need to be very specific when we talk about advice to Wikimedians in Arab countries re going to Haifa. Encouraging Wikimedians who live in countries where it would be illegal to visit Israel to break the laws of the country they live in and attend such a public event strikes me as inappropriate and unethical (lobbying to change a law is something I see as very different encouraging others to break a law). Encouraging a boycott amongst Wikimedians who legally could go to Israel is a very different thing. We all have real life POVs, but we are supposed to leave them at the door when we logon to Wikimedia. Of course if this involves offsite blogs and facebook then it drifts into that contentious area of offwiki activities that impact Wikipedia. For me that's fairly easy - when I'm WereSpielChequers I'm a wikimedian, I don't use that identity outside of Wikimedia and some of my closest friends don't know about this hobby of mine. But for others I can see things getting more blurred, especially if they edit in their own name. For wikimedians from cultures and countries where Israel's continued occupation of the lands it captured in 1967 is considered illegal and unethical, and the consequent boycott of Israel is a cultural norm, the decision to host Wikimania in Haifa must be making it very difficult to keep their on and off wiki positions from getting blurred. WereSpielChequers On 6 July 2011 04:51, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: On Tue, Jul 05, 2011 at 12:44:22PM -0400, dror1...@icqmail.com wrote: It is important to note that we encountered this year unprecedented attempts to discourage people, particularly Arab people, from coming to the event. I don't blame anyone, and I respect the freedom of speech of everybody, but it is very hard to promote an event among Arabic-speaking people, when there are FaceBook groups and blogs, some of them initiated by Wikipedians, calling upon Arab people not to attend, and even spreading false information. This is something I would like to counter, if possible. -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 ___ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l ___ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Re: [Wikimania-l] Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach
On 07/06/2011 11:13 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote: Encouraging Wikimedians who live in countries where it would be illegal to visit Israel to break the laws of the country they live in and attend such a public event strikes me as inappropriate and unethical (lobbying to change a law is something I see as very different encouraging others to break a law). Slightly OT, but I depending on how you meant this, I disagree. We should make it clear that it's their risk to break the law, but if they are willing to take that risk, I don't have any problem with that and in fact I think in that case we should help them any way we can. It's the Wikimedians who break the law we should protect, not unjust laws themselves. If a Wikimedian feels reasonably safe traveling to Israel, even though it might be illegal, he deserves our support. Of course that doesn't mean that we should talk people into taking risks that they don't want to take (and if that's all you meant to say, I completely agree :)) --Tobias signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Re: [Wikimania-l] Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach
Absolutely if someone does come from a country that has laws against their attending then we should do our best to keep them safe. I hope that my concerns turn out to be overcautious, but I do worry that we have some young, enthusiastic and occasionally naive editors, and we could have a fellow editor attend who for decades to come lives in fear of being exposed as the Wikimedian from his or her country who broke the law against going to Israel. And yes I've heard the argument that some of the countries that have laws against their citizens going to Israel don't currently do much to enforce those laws. But it is that sort of complacency and short termism that makes me genuinely fearful that we could have someone getting into serious trouble because they broke their country's law against attending an event in Israel. There are fine lines between enabling people to break a law and encouraging or discouraging them from doing so. But regardless of all that the decision was taken many months ago to hold Wikimania in Haifa. The time to debate that decision is long past, what we should concentrate on now is making the event a success and enabling more virtual participation, as in my view that is the biggest opportunity at this stage to increase participation. If people are going to come in person presumably they have already booked. WSC WereSpielChequers WSC On 6 July 2011 11:09, church.of.emacs.ml church.of.emacs...@googlemail.com wrote: On 07/06/2011 11:13 AM, WereSpielChequers wrote: Encouraging Wikimedians who live in countries where it would be illegal to visit Israel to break the laws of the country they live in and attend such a public event strikes me as inappropriate and unethical (lobbying to change a law is something I see as very different encouraging others to break a law). Slightly OT, but I depending on how you meant this, I disagree. We should make it clear that it's their risk to break the law, but if they are willing to take that risk, I don't have any problem with that and in fact I think in that case we should help them any way we can. It's the Wikimedians who break the law we should protect, not unjust laws themselves. If a Wikimedian feels reasonably safe traveling to Israel, even though it might be illegal, he deserves our support. Of course that doesn't mean that we should talk people into taking risks that they don't want to take (and if that's all you meant to say, I completely agree :)) --Tobias ___ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l ___ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Re: [Wikimania-l] Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach
Visiting Israel is against the law in several Islamic countries, this is covered in http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas#Visas_for_Middle_Eastern_Countries_.28other_than_Egypt_and_Jordan.29 And was discussed earlier this year at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa#Arab_countries WSC On 6 July 2011 12:33, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 01:11:09PM +0100, WereSpielChequers wrote: Absolutely if someone does come from a country that has laws against their attending then we should do our best to keep them safe. I don't think it's really against the law anywhere, and we haven't heard reports about there being any issues (I did ask explicitly). The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going to be beneficial to all parties. :-) For starters I think we need to figure out why palestinians aren't attending. If it's really a small sample, it might simply be because none happen to have time. Could folks ask around on their home wikis ? sincerely, Kim Bruning -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 ___ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l ___ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
Re: [Wikimania-l] Claims by BDS / Palestinian outreach
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 AM, Kim Bruning k...@bruning.xs4all.nl wrote: The problem is that BDS (and others?) are explicitly acting against wikimania. I'd love to hear more reports on this. I think having a wikimania in haifa is actually going to be beneficial to all parties. :-) Strictly speaking, we don't actually know this to be a problem. There is no proof of the BDS campaign having dissuaded large numbers of potential attendees, especially from Arab countries. Any such potential attendees would have been dissuaded by other reasons, already discussed extensively on this and other lists, -- political climate in their countries, personal perception of attendance as implicit support of the Israeli government policy, etc.. By all means go on publicizing WM2011 among Arabic speakers. Once again, the local team has made it clear it is committed to helping anyone who would like to attend. But perhaps it's time to stop pretending it is entirely up to us whether Arabic speakers would be well-represented in this Wikimania or not? Asaf -- Asaf Bartov (personal opinion) ___ Wikimania-l mailing list Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
