Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Josh Lim]

I actually agree with Pine on this one.

I’m actually very disturbed that no chapter from a developing country (with the 
possible exceptions of Mexico and Argentina) signed off on this letter during 
Wikimania, despite the presence of a number of affiliates from those countries 
at Wikimania.  Inasmuch as I agree that Wikimania should be held yearly, the 
way this statement is worded makes it appear that we all agreed to it when in 
fact not everyone did.  In fact, did the people who attended this meeting even 
try soliciting input from affiliates in developing countries, whether they be 
the ones who were at Wikimania or who weren’t?

Thanks,

Josh

> On Jul 8, 2016, at 11:33 PM, Pine W  wrote:
> 
> Thank you. I find it confusing that the letter starts with "The chairpersons 
> of the Wikimedia chapters state that Wikimania needs to be arranged every 
> year," which implies that all of the chapter chairs are united in agreement, 
> but it appears several chapters didn't sign the letter. Looking further at 
> the content of the letter, I would have some questions about some of the 
> statements that were made there. In the future, I would encourage chapter 
> chairs to have discussions about matters such as this on the Affiliates 
> mailing list so that we can have more inclusive discussions among more 
> affiliates before sending letters like that. The Wikimania situation is 
> already convoluted, and I believe that letters such as this should get fuller 
> discussion among affiliates before they are sent to WMF.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Pine
> 
> On Jul 8, 2016 20:04, "Christophe Henner"  > wrote:
> My bad I forgot it already is on meta 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Statements/Chapter_chairs_statement:_Wikimania_needs_to_be_arranged_every_year
>  
> 
> Le 9 juil. 2016 4:50 AM, "Pine W"  > a écrit :
> Thanks Christophe. I, for one, have had difficulty figuring out what is going 
> on with Wikimania in regards to varying decisions in different parts of WMF 
> and the community, so I look forward to the clarifications.
> 
> Personally I am currently neutral on the decision of whether to have annual 
> Wikimanias, or alternate Wikimanias with years in which there is emphasis on 
> national or regional conferences. My hunch is that some research about costs 
> and benefits is needed so that we have reliable data about a variety of 
> scenarios before making a decision.
> 
> Thanks again for working on this.
> 
> To the board chairs: I would be interested in seeing that letter. In the 
> spirit of transparency, would you please publish it on Meta? As you know I am 
> an advocate for much more transparency from WMF, and I would like for the 
> affiliates to also to be transparent about governance matters such as this 
> one.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Pine
> 
> On Jul 8, 2016 19:18, "Christophe Henner"  > wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of 
> Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a 
> comprehensive decision on this very topic. 
> 
> The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if they 
> want to :)
> 
> First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope (in 
> the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and financial) 
> we commit to the event. 
> 
> Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.
> 
> Here is the answer I provided them with. 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi chairs!
> 
> First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful and 
> raises interesting point. 
> 
> Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what we 
> said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear 
> answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise. 
> 
> Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also comes 
> with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going to meet 
> in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start that 
> discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive decision. 
> 
> We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask you 
> to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take a 
> little more time than you could expect. 
> 
> Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but 
> also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)
> 
> We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.
> 
> Have all a really great day / night :)
> 
> Christophe
> 
> 
> While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Pine W]

Thank you. I find it confusing that the letter starts with "The
chairpersons of the Wikimedia chapters state that Wikimania needs to be
arranged every year," which implies that all of the chapter chairs are
united in agreement, but it appears several chapters didn't sign the
letter. Looking further at the content of the letter, I would have some
questions about some of the statements that were made there. In the future,
I would encourage chapter chairs to have discussions about matters such as
this on the Affiliates mailing list so that we can have more inclusive
discussions among more affiliates before sending letters like that. The
Wikimania situation is already convoluted, and I believe that letters such
as this should get fuller discussion among affiliates before they are sent
to WMF.

Thanks,

Pine
On Jul 8, 2016 20:04, "Christophe Henner"  wrote:

> My bad I forgot it already is on meta
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Statements/Chapter_chairs_statement:_Wikimania_needs_to_be_arranged_every_year
> Le 9 juil. 2016 4:50 AM, "Pine W"  a écrit :
>
> Thanks Christophe. I, for one, have had difficulty figuring out what is
> going on with Wikimania in regards to varying decisions in different parts
> of WMF and the community, so I look forward to the clarifications.
>
> Personally I am currently neutral on the decision of whether to have
> annual Wikimanias, or alternate Wikimanias with years in which there is
> emphasis on national or regional conferences. My hunch is that some
> research about costs and benefits is needed so that we have reliable data
> about a variety of scenarios before making a decision.
>
> Thanks again for working on this.
>
> To the board chairs: I would be interested in seeing that letter. In the
> spirit of transparency, would you please publish it on Meta? As you know I
> am an advocate for much more transparency from WMF, and I would like for
> the affiliates to also to be transparent about governance matters such as
> this one.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pine
> On Jul 8, 2016 19:18, "Christophe Henner"  wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of
>> Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a
>> comprehensive decision on this very topic.
>>
>> The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if
>> they want to :)
>>
>> First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope
>> (in the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and
>> financial) we commit to the event.
>>
>> Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.
>>
>> Here is the answer I provided them with.
>>
>> 
>>
>> Hi chairs!
>>
>> First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful
>> and raises interesting point.
>>
>> Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what
>> we said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear
>> answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise.
>>
>> Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also
>> comes with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going
>> to meet in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start
>> that discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive
>> decision.
>>
>> We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask
>> you to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take
>> a little more time than you could expect.
>>
>> Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but
>> also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)
>>
>> We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.
>>
>> Have all a really great day / night :)
>>
>> Christophe
>>
>> While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on
>> the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)
>>
>> Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to
>> serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main
>> moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These
>> views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.
>>
>> Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino
>> Lario early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania
>> every other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation.
>> I told them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not
>> particularly widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling
>> from the WMF, who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out
>> specifically at the start of the conference and to my delight, said that
>> the consultation was “just another data point,” and that it was by no means
>> the final word on things. 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Andrew Lih]

Yes, and I should have also mentioned that this statement from the chairs
was read out loud during the Esino Lario discussion session on “The Future
of Wikimania.”

-Andrew


-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: and...@andrewlih.com
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Christophe Henner 
wrote:

> My bad I forgot it already is on meta
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Statements/Chapter_chairs_statement:_Wikimania_needs_to_be_arranged_every_year
> Le 9 juil. 2016 4:50 AM, "Pine W"  a écrit :
>
> Thanks Christophe. I, for one, have had difficulty figuring out what is
> going on with Wikimania in regards to varying decisions in different parts
> of WMF and the community, so I look forward to the clarifications.
>
> Personally I am currently neutral on the decision of whether to have
> annual Wikimanias, or alternate Wikimanias with years in which there is
> emphasis on national or regional conferences. My hunch is that some
> research about costs and benefits is needed so that we have reliable data
> about a variety of scenarios before making a decision.
>
> Thanks again for working on this.
>
> To the board chairs: I would be interested in seeing that letter. In the
> spirit of transparency, would you please publish it on Meta? As you know I
> am an advocate for much more transparency from WMF, and I would like for
> the affiliates to also to be transparent about governance matters such as
> this one.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pine
> On Jul 8, 2016 19:18, "Christophe Henner"  wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of
>> Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a
>> comprehensive decision on this very topic.
>>
>> The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if
>> they want to :)
>>
>> First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope
>> (in the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and
>> financial) we commit to the event.
>>
>> Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.
>>
>> Here is the answer I provided them with.
>>
>> 
>>
>> Hi chairs!
>>
>> First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful
>> and raises interesting point.
>>
>> Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what
>> we said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear
>> answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise.
>>
>> Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also
>> comes with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going
>> to meet in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start
>> that discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive
>> decision.
>>
>> We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask
>> you to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take
>> a little more time than you could expect.
>>
>> Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but
>> also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)
>>
>> We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.
>>
>> Have all a really great day / night :)
>>
>> Christophe
>>
>> While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on
>> the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)
>>
>> Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to
>> serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main
>> moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These
>> views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.
>>
>> Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino
>> Lario early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania
>> every other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation.
>> I told them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not
>> particularly widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling
>> from the WMF, who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out
>> specifically at the start of the conference and to my delight, said that
>> the consultation was “just another data point,” and that it was by no means
>> the final word on things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were
>> interested in keeping a yearly Wikimania.
>>
>> I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session
>> [1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their
>> views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the
>> final discussion room 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Christophe Henner]

My bad I forgot it already is on meta
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters/Statements/Chapter_chairs_statement:_Wikimania_needs_to_be_arranged_every_year
Le 9 juil. 2016 4:50 AM, "Pine W"  a écrit :

Thanks Christophe. I, for one, have had difficulty figuring out what is
going on with Wikimania in regards to varying decisions in different parts
of WMF and the community, so I look forward to the clarifications.

Personally I am currently neutral on the decision of whether to have annual
Wikimanias, or alternate Wikimanias with years in which there is emphasis
on national or regional conferences. My hunch is that some research about
costs and benefits is needed so that we have reliable data about a variety
of scenarios before making a decision.

Thanks again for working on this.

To the board chairs: I would be interested in seeing that letter. In the
spirit of transparency, would you please publish it on Meta? As you know I
am an advocate for much more transparency from WMF, and I would like for
the affiliates to also to be transparent about governance matters such as
this one.

Thanks,

Pine
On Jul 8, 2016 19:18, "Christophe Henner"  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of
> Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a
> comprehensive decision on this very topic.
>
> The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if
> they want to :)
>
> First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope (in
> the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and financial)
> we commit to the event.
>
> Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.
>
> Here is the answer I provided them with.
>
> 
>
> Hi chairs!
>
> First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful and
> raises interesting point.
>
> Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what we
> said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear
> answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise.
>
> Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also
> comes with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going
> to meet in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start
> that discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive
> decision.
>
> We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask
> you to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take
> a little more time than you could expect.
>
> Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but
> also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)
>
> We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.
>
> Have all a really great day / night :)
>
> Christophe
>
> While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on
> the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)
>
> Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to
> serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main
> moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These
> views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.
>
> Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino Lario
> early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania every
> other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation. I told
> them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not particularly
> widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling from the WMF,
> who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out specifically at the
> start of the conference and to my delight, said that the consultation was
> “just another data point,” and that it was by no means the final word on
> things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were interested in
> keeping a yearly Wikimania.
>
> I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session
> [1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their
> views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the
> final discussion room and I asked Chris Schilling to give an opening
> statement to the room. Most people were happy to hear him say that it was
> “just another data point.” During the discussion, there was overwhelming
> support to keep Wikimania going every year, which is not a surprise
> considering this was *at* Wikimania. I encourage folks to peruse the
> Etherpad notes, which are quite extensive and expertly done by several
> folks there.
>
> Some views I’d highlight:
> - Having yearly Wikimania is important to keep the momentum of the
> movement going, according to many
> - A case for cancelling yearly Wikimania was to encourage/fund regional
> meetups. However, there 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Pine W]

Thanks Christophe. I, for one, have had difficulty figuring out what is
going on with Wikimania in regards to varying decisions in different parts
of WMF and the community, so I look forward to the clarifications.

Personally I am currently neutral on the decision of whether to have annual
Wikimanias, or alternate Wikimanias with years in which there is emphasis
on national or regional conferences. My hunch is that some research about
costs and benefits is needed so that we have reliable data about a variety
of scenarios before making a decision.

Thanks again for working on this.

To the board chairs: I would be interested in seeing that letter. In the
spirit of transparency, would you please publish it on Meta? As you know I
am an advocate for much more transparency from WMF, and I would like for
the affiliates to also to be transparent about governance matters such as
this one.

Thanks,

Pine
On Jul 8, 2016 19:18, "Christophe Henner"  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> The same question was raised to the board a few days ago by chairs of
> Wikimedia organizations asking Foundation's board to make sure there's a
> comprehensive decision on this very topic.
>
> The chairs letter wasn't public, I let them share it on meta or here if
> they want to :)
>
> First step, in my opinion, is to set expectations and define the scope (in
> the role of the event but also in the ressources (both human and financial)
> we commit to the event.
>
> Katherine is working with the staff to provide groundings.
>
> Here is the answer I provided them with.
>
> 
>
> Hi chairs!
>
> First of all, thank you with the email, the feedback is clearly useful and
> raises interesting point.
>
> Now, the Wikimania discussion definitly is on the table. Living by what we
> said during Wikimania, we, as WMF, will make sure we end up with a clear
> answer to your questions but also to the different points you raise.
>
> Wikimania is an important time in our movement, but as you said it also
> comes with costs and challenges that we have to adress. Katherine is going
> to meet in the coming days with the staff in charge of that topic to start
> that discussion within WMF and provide groundings for a comprehensive
> decision.
>
> We will try to be as diligent as possible on that topic, but I would ask
> you to keep in mind that as we're in a transition phase and that might take
> a little more time than you could expect.
>
> Again thank you for your email, I love the fact that he raises issues but
> also includes the challenges we have to take care of :)
>
> We'll get back to you as soon as possible to continue that discussion.
>
> Have all a really great day / night :)
>
> Christophe
>
> While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on
> the events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)
>
> Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to
> serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main
> moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These
> views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.
>
> Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino Lario
> early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania every
> other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation. I told
> them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not particularly
> widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling from the WMF,
> who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out specifically at the
> start of the conference and to my delight, said that the consultation was
> “just another data point,” and that it was by no means the final word on
> things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were interested in
> keeping a yearly Wikimania.
>
> I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session
> [1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their
> views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the
> final discussion room and I asked Chris Schilling to give an opening
> statement to the room. Most people were happy to hear him say that it was
> “just another data point.” During the discussion, there was overwhelming
> support to keep Wikimania going every year, which is not a surprise
> considering this was *at* Wikimania. I encourage folks to peruse the
> Etherpad notes, which are quite extensive and expertly done by several
> folks there.
>
> Some views I’d highlight:
> - Having yearly Wikimania is important to keep the momentum of the
> movement going, according to many
> - A case for cancelling yearly Wikimania was to encourage/fund regional
> meetups. However, there is no guarantee that those regional meetups would
> actually take place, or that WMF would necessarily take the money saved
> from Wikimania to fund them. Some folks from Asia specifically said that
> there is weaker linguistic, 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Gnangarra]

Noting that Wikimedia Australia has also expressed its interest in holding
Wikimania in 2018 in Perth, it has a number of significant sponsorship
offers already on the table all of which had been communicated to Ellie,

the sponsorship offers includes venue fees, travel costs and other
assistance amounting to several hundred thousand Australian dollars


On 9 July 2016 at 03:50, Lodewijk  wrote:

> Thanks for the clarification, Florence. If I may ask another: the
> 'interest' expressed, does that refer to interest expressed by
> South-African Wikimedians, or by the Committee?
>
> Best,
> Lodewijk
>
> 2016-07-08 21:38 GMT+02:00 Florence Devouard :
>
>> Le 08/07/16 à 16:01, Chris Keating a écrit :
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>>
>>> I was interested to read the minutes of the most recent Wikimania
>>> Committee meeting, which decided that Wikimania will be held annually
>>> from now on, and that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa (effectively
>>> meaning South Africa) in 2018.
>>>
>>
>> Pointing out that the minutes do not say that it will be in sub-Saharan
>> Africa. It says
>>
>> "The CfP should identify the priority given for that year to Sub-Saharan
>> Africa, noting that there is expressed interest in hosting in the Republic
>> of South Africa. "
>>
>> The difference is subtle, but there is a difference.
>> The committee actually drafted an official announcement, which was
>> supposed to be published quickly after the committee minutes.
>> But we have been asked to refrain from publishing our announcement until
>> after the WMF has been consulted on the matter.
>>
>> I am happy to disclose the sentence currently drafted for our (not yet
>> published) announcement, which is
>>
>> "Considering this, the Committee has a mild preference for Sub-Saharan
>> Africa for 2018, but is of course willing to look at proposals for hosting
>> Wikimania 2018 in other locations. "
>>
>>
>> Florence
>>
>>
>>
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/Minutes/2016-06-26
>>>
>>> Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being
>>> informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone
>>> from the WMF's community engagement department being present.
>>>
>>> I have to say I'm a bit confused, not least about who actually makes the
>>> decision about how frequently Wikimania happens. Is anyone able to shed
>>> any more light on this?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


-- 
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
___
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Florence Devouard]

Oh. Good point !

The term "interest" referred to Wikimedia South Africa, which expressed 
interest into etc.


During Wikimania, various groups were approached by us (by Ellie). And 
other groups approached us. To express their interest in holding 
Wikimania in the future.


For example, on Sunday evening, at Pizzeria 51, a few minutes before the 
sky decided to fall on our heads, I was told Bangkok was interested for 
2020 !


Florence



Le 08/07/16 à 21:50, Lodewijk a écrit :

Thanks for the clarification, Florence. If I may ask another: the
'interest' expressed, does that refer to interest expressed by
South-African Wikimedians, or by the Committee?

Best,
Lodewijk

2016-07-08 21:38 GMT+02:00 Florence Devouard >:

Le 08/07/16 à 16:01, Chris Keating a écrit :

Hoi,

I was interested to read the minutes of the most recent Wikimania
Committee meeting, which decided that Wikimania will be held
annually
from now on, and that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa (effectively
meaning South Africa) in 2018.


Pointing out that the minutes do not say that it will be in
sub-Saharan Africa. It says

"The CfP should identify the priority given for that year to
Sub-Saharan Africa, noting that there is expressed interest in
hosting in the Republic of South Africa. "

The difference is subtle, but there is a difference.
The committee actually drafted an official announcement, which was
supposed to be published quickly after the committee minutes.
But we have been asked to refrain from publishing our announcement
until after the WMF has been consulted on the matter.

I am happy to disclose the sentence currently drafted for our (not
yet published) announcement, which is

"Considering this, the Committee has a mild preference for
Sub-Saharan Africa for 2018, but is of course willing to look at
proposals for hosting Wikimania 2018 in other locations. "


Florence



https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/Minutes/2016-06-26

Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's
decision being
informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania,
or anyone
from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

I have to say I'm a bit confused, not least about who actually
makes the
decision about how frequently Wikimania happens. Is anyone able
to shed
any more light on this?

Thanks,

Chris


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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Lodewijk]

Thanks for the clarification, Florence. If I may ask another: the
'interest' expressed, does that refer to interest expressed by
South-African Wikimedians, or by the Committee?

Best,
Lodewijk

2016-07-08 21:38 GMT+02:00 Florence Devouard :

> Le 08/07/16 à 16:01, Chris Keating a écrit :
>
>> Hoi,
>>
>> I was interested to read the minutes of the most recent Wikimania
>> Committee meeting, which decided that Wikimania will be held annually
>> from now on, and that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa (effectively
>> meaning South Africa) in 2018.
>>
>
> Pointing out that the minutes do not say that it will be in sub-Saharan
> Africa. It says
>
> "The CfP should identify the priority given for that year to Sub-Saharan
> Africa, noting that there is expressed interest in hosting in the Republic
> of South Africa. "
>
> The difference is subtle, but there is a difference.
> The committee actually drafted an official announcement, which was
> supposed to be published quickly after the committee minutes.
> But we have been asked to refrain from publishing our announcement until
> after the WMF has been consulted on the matter.
>
> I am happy to disclose the sentence currently drafted for our (not yet
> published) announcement, which is
>
> "Considering this, the Committee has a mild preference for Sub-Saharan
> Africa for 2018, but is of course willing to look at proposals for hosting
> Wikimania 2018 in other locations. "
>
>
> Florence
>
>
>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/Minutes/2016-06-26
>>
>> Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being
>> informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone
>> from the WMF's community engagement department being present.
>>
>> I have to say I'm a bit confused, not least about who actually makes the
>> decision about how frequently Wikimania happens. Is anyone able to shed
>> any more light on this?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
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>>
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>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Florence Devouard]

Le 08/07/16 à 16:01, Chris Keating a écrit :

Hoi,

I was interested to read the minutes of the most recent Wikimania
Committee meeting, which decided that Wikimania will be held annually
from now on, and that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa (effectively
meaning South Africa) in 2018.


Pointing out that the minutes do not say that it will be in sub-Saharan 
Africa. It says


"The CfP should identify the priority given for that year to Sub-Saharan 
Africa, noting that there is expressed interest in hosting in the 
Republic of South Africa. "


The difference is subtle, but there is a difference.
The committee actually drafted an official announcement, which was 
supposed to be published quickly after the committee minutes.
But we have been asked to refrain from publishing our announcement until 
after the WMF has been consulted on the matter.


I am happy to disclose the sentence currently drafted for our (not yet 
published) announcement, which is


"Considering this, the Committee has a mild preference for Sub-Saharan 
Africa for 2018, but is of course willing to look at proposals for 
hosting Wikimania 2018 in other locations. "



Florence




https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/Minutes/2016-06-26

Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being
informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone
from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

I have to say I'm a bit confused, not least about who actually makes the
decision about how frequently Wikimania happens. Is anyone able to shed
any more light on this?

Thanks,

Chris


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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Sam Klein]

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Lodewijk 
wrote:

> There is only one body that can make funding commitments: the WMF board of
> trustees.
>

Not quite true on a number of levels :)  The Board doesn't directly make
funding commitments, it approves them – and wholesale, not line by line.
It would hardly change its approval of an annual budget based on how this
1% of the budget is allocated to travel+events.

The ED could make a meaningful commitment on this front.  As could the
broader community of potential organizers and regional organizations.  For
instance, a city with regional support & access to a great & inexpensive
venue could commit to host a Wikimania in any year when there wasn't a
suitable bid elsewhere.


> Wikimania doesn't have to stand or fall with WMF funding.
>

Right.  More specifically, if Wikimania is billed as a costly WMF
line-item, organizers will plan for it and attendees will expect it
(whatever that means - opulence, ticket prices, number of attendees fully
subsidized by the WMF [whether via scholarship or otherwise]).  If it
isn't, people will plan and design the conferences differently.

Also noted in the roundtable discussion: WordPress has an interesting model
with hundreds of self-funding regional meetings a year, and two
international meetings, all of which are significantly lower overhead than
Wikimanias but still great community events, fun & productive.  The primary
costs of any con are airfare and lodging.  If we make sure that everyone is
close to a multinational event hosted somewhere with simple travel &
lodging options, whether or not they attend The Largest International
Gathering (or whether indeed there is a single one) makes less of a
difference.

SJ
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Ellie Young]

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Chris Keating 
wrote:

> Thanks Marc.
>
> So - has the WMF committed to fund a 2018 Wikimania? If they haven't, then
> how is one going to happen?
>


​I am working on this with WMF now, as we do need to start planning for
2018 soon in order to ensure a viable team is in place, securing venues
well in advance (to save $$), etc   So look for something in the coming
month from WMF and the Committee.

Ellie Young
WMF Events Manager
 ​


>
> And while I wasn't entirely sure what to make of the WMF's consultation
> about the future of Wikimania, I can also see some methodological flaws in
> conducting a consultation among the group of people who come to the "future
> of Wikimania" session at Wikimania.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris
>
> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Marc-Andre  wrote:
>
>> On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
>>
>>> Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being
>>> informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone
>>> from the WMF's community engagement department being present.
>>>
>>
>> Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The
>> WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence
>> in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource
>> or not".
>>
>> The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation
>> you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of
>> Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected
>> in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that
>> its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community
>> members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.
>>
>> -- Coren / Marc
>>
>> [1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty
>> much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most
>> logistical support year in and year out.
>>
>> [2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's
>> conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its
>> irreplaceable role in our movement.
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
>
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>


-- 
Ellie Young
Events Manager
Wikimedia Foundation
eyo...@wikimedia.org
c. 510 701 8649
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Andrew Lih]

While I concur with Coren’s conclusion, I’ll try to neutrally report on the
events at Wikimania which led to this result. :)

Full disclosure: I’m a fan of Wikimania being yearly, and was asked to
serve on the Wikimania Committee after Esino Lario. I was also the main
moderator of the Wikimania 2016 session on the “Future of Wikimania.” These
views are my own, and not anything official from the committee.

Background: Many folks (I’d say a majority) who I talked to in Esino Lario
early in the conference thought that the decision to do Wikimania every
other year was a done deal, as a result of the IdeaLab consultation. I told
them that might not necessarily be so. The vote was close, not particularly
widely known, and we could still be heard. Chris Schilling from the WMF,
who oversaw the Idealab consultation, sought me out specifically at the
start of the conference and to my delight, said that the consultation was
“just another data point,” and that it was by no means the final word on
things. Obviously, this was good news to people who were interested in
keeping a yearly Wikimania.

I was scheduled to moderate the “Future of Wikimania” discussion session
[1] at the very end of the conference, and encouraged people to let their
views be heard. It was under these conditions that we entered into the
final discussion room and I asked Chris Schilling to give an opening
statement to the room. Most people were happy to hear him say that it was
“just another data point.” During the discussion, there was overwhelming
support to keep Wikimania going every year, which is not a surprise
considering this was *at* Wikimania. I encourage folks to peruse the
Etherpad notes, which are quite extensive and expertly done by several
folks there.

Some views I’d highlight:
- Having yearly Wikimania is important to keep the momentum of the movement
going, according to many
- A case for cancelling yearly Wikimania was to encourage/fund regional
meetups. However, there is no guarantee that those regional meetups would
actually take place, or that WMF would necessarily take the money saved
from Wikimania to fund them. Some folks from Asia specifically said that
there is weaker linguistic, cultural and geographic synergy for an “Asian”
conference like there is in Europe and Africa, which is why it has been
hard to do one.
- One person noted that one trip to Wikimania served the same role as
several international trips to get the same benefit from meeting other
Wikimedians/developers, so there are indeed cost efficiencies in having a
central conference.

Thanks.

[1]
https://wikimania2016.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discussions/The_future_of_Wikimania
[2] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/Wikimania2016-discussion7b




-Andrew Lih
Associate professor of journalism, American University
Email: and...@andrewlih.com
WEB: http://www.andrewlih.com
BOOK: The Wikipedia Revolution: http://www.wikipediarevolution.com
PROJECT: Wiki Makes Video
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Wiki_Makes_Video

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 10:18 AM, Marc-Andre  wrote:

> On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
>
>> Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being
>> informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone
>> from the WMF's community engagement department being present.
>>
>
> Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The
> WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence
> in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource
> or not".
>
> The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation
> you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of
> Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected
> in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that
> its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community
> members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.
>
> -- Coren / Marc
>
> [1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much
> shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical
> support year in and year out.
>
> [2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's
> conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its
> irreplaceable role in our movement.
>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Marc-Andre]

On 2016-07-08 10:33 AM, Lodewijk wrote:
There is only one body that can make funding commitments: the WMF 
board of trustees. However, theoretically, Wikimania doesn't have to 
stand or fall with WMF funding.


That is true, although it would certainly require reexamination of the 
scope of the conference.  Hypothetically, the chapters may be able to 
take over some of the burden as well.


I suppose you could read the decision of the committee as "we'll do our 
best to keep one even a year as long as we are able to rather than 
actually attempt to only set one up every other year".


-- Coren / Marc


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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Lodewijk]

There is only one body that can make funding commitments: the WMF board of
trustees. However, theoretically, Wikimania doesn't have to stand or fall
with WMF funding. But from what I observed, there's a broad support for
this type of decision by this committee among board members.

Contrary to popular belief, july/august 2018 is still quite far from now,
so lets see how things develop in the coming months.

Thanks for sharing these minutes!

Best,
Lodewijk

2016-07-08 16:26 GMT+02:00 Chris Keating :

> Thanks Marc.
>
> So - has the WMF committed to fund a 2018 Wikimania? If they haven't, then
> how is one going to happen?
>
> And while I wasn't entirely sure what to make of the WMF's consultation
> about the future of Wikimania, I can also see some methodological flaws in
> conducting a consultation among the group of people who come to the "future
> of Wikimania" session at Wikimania.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris
>
> On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Marc-Andre  wrote:
>
>> On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
>>
>>> Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being
>>> informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone
>>> from the WMF's community engagement department being present.
>>>
>>
>> Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The
>> WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence
>> in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource
>> or not".
>>
>> The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation
>> you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of
>> Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected
>> in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that
>> its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community
>> members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.
>>
>> -- Coren / Marc
>>
>> [1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty
>> much shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most
>> logistical support year in and year out.
>>
>> [2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's
>> conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its
>> irreplaceable role in our movement.
>>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Chris Keating]

Thanks Marc.

So - has the WMF committed to fund a 2018 Wikimania? If they haven't, then
how is one going to happen?

And while I wasn't entirely sure what to make of the WMF's consultation
about the future of Wikimania, I can also see some methodological flaws in
conducting a consultation among the group of people who come to the "future
of Wikimania" session at Wikimania.

Regards,

Chris

On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Marc-Andre  wrote:

> On 2016-07-08 10:01 AM, Chris Keating wrote:
>
>> Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being
>> informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone
>> from the WMF's community engagement department being present.
>>
>
> Wikimania is, and always was, a community led and organized event. The
> WMF, as its traditional biggest sponsor[1], has a great deal of influence
> in the matter - but ultimately no decision power beyond "fund and resource
> or not".
>
> The committee's decision has indeed taken into account the consultation
> you refer to - as well as the roundtable discussion on the "Future of
> Wikimania" that took place earlier[2].  Our evaluation, which is reflected
> in that resolution, is that the consultation was clearly flawed and that
> its conclusion does not reflect consensus - neither of the community
> members who organize nor of those who attend Wikimania.
>
> -- Coren / Marc
>
> [1] Although "underwrite" might be a better term - the WMF has pretty much
> shouldered the vast majority of the costs and given the most logistical
> support year in and year out.
>
> [2] Where the consensus was to overwhelmingly reject that consultation's
> conclusion in favor or continuing with Wikimania as a yearly even given its
> irreplaceable role in our movement.
>
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[Wikimania-l] Wikimania - annually, with South Africa in 2018?

[Chris Keating]

Hoi,

I was interested to read the minutes of the most recent Wikimania Committee
meeting, which decided that Wikimania will be held annually from now on,
and that it will be in sub-Saharan Africa (effectively meaning South
Africa) in 2018.

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Committee/Minutes/2016-06-26

Interestingly, I couldn't see any sign of the Committee's decision being
informed by the WMF's consultation on the future of Wikimania, or anyone
from the WMF's community engagement department being present.

I have to say I'm a bit confused, not least about who actually makes the
decision about how frequently Wikimania happens. Is anyone able to shed any
more light on this?

Thanks,

Chris
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