Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[Isaac Olatunde]

I agree with Jonathan that issuing scholarship earlier than three months
before event is meaningless. What I see as the most viable solution to this
problem is that WMF should leave invitations to host country who is
expected to work in tandem with their Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The
Wikimedia Conference in Berlin is working today not because Germany is
Visa-friendly but because of the way WMDE is handling the visa process.
It's surprising that WMF is the one inviting people to Canada rather than
the host country. I don't know if someone from the foundation will comment
on the invitation letter.

Best,

Isaac

On Jul 4, 2017 5:30 PM, "Dhaval S. Vyas"  wrote:

> Hi Jonathan,
>
> With regard to the point 2, issuing scholarships early, how early is a
> question. Most countries, if not all, only allows one to apply no more than
> 3 months prior to their intended date of travel, so notifying recipients 6
> months in advance is not going to help them in anyways.
>
> We need to learn the reason provided by visa processing agency for the
> rejection, which can help others decide what to submit and what to expect.
> I think in this thread also I have missed that if anyone mentioned the
> official reason provided to them. I see points made about
> invitation/sponsorship letter sent from US for Canada visa here but
> uncertain whether that was officially the reason for rejection.
>
> Regards,
> Dhaval Vyas
>
> On 4 Jul 2017 16:45, "Jonathan Cardy"  wrote:
>
>> Hi Levin,
>>
>> Of your three points:
>>
>> 1 Is good, but I can remember one winning bid where there was a very
>> strong reassurance at the bid stage which then didn't really work out well
>> during the organisation stage. I'm not going to name the bid, but I will
>> say that people ask questions and not every answer is 100% delivered. If
>> questions have not been asked recently we need to start asking them again (
>> I don't know if this was looked at during Montreal, I look at lots of
>> Wikimania bids and often ask about visas, I don't remember looking at the
>> Montreal bid).
>>
>> 2 Is a problem, some of the people who are going to have most difficulty
>> getting visas are people who can only afford to come if they get a
>> scholarship. Moving the whole scholarship process forward so we know who is
>> going to come earlier would lose spontaneity of the event for others though
>> it would help some get visas. But there are two things we could do. Firstly
>> we could offer scholarships now  to next year's Wikimania to scholarship
>> recipients who couldn't get visas to Montreal (and do that each year - this
>> is not a new problem or an easy one). Secondly we could move the
>> scholarship process forward for people coming from countries where visas
>> are likely to be slow to get for the next Wikimania. That could mean two
>> rounds of scholarship applications, one for one group of countries and a
>> few months later for people from other countries. Not perfect but practical
>> and probably helpful.
>>
>> 3 I'm pretty sure there has been analysis, at least to the level of
>> number of non attendees due to visa failure per Wikimania. For Privacy
>> reasons we need to be very careful with any more detailed data, but that
>> number should be known and each Wikimania team should be aiming to be low
>> on that list.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>> On 4 Jul 2017, at 13:13, Levon Azizian  wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Regarding mentioned, I have some suggestions on mitigation risks for the
>> future what could be done.
>>
>> 1. Visa support should be an important component for hosting community.
>> Thus, during the bidding process of new location of Wikimania (or other
>> huge event), each proposal of location should be considered not only from
>> the prospective of visa-friendly policy, but on preliminary negotiations
>> between local chapter (community) and local authorities (MFA or whatever).
>> Thus, if let's say community of New Zealand get some positive negotiation's
>> result from MFA of NZ on participant's visa support, it should be
>> considered as a plus for this bid.
>> 2. After the bid was chosen, local team should provide to local
>> authorities the list of all participants who will participate at event and
>> make sure that central authorities will transfer the lists to embassies and
>> this lists will make a sense when decision on visa is made by embassy.
>> Maybe it is not the most interesting thing, but hosting communities should
>> take care on ability of their guests to visit the country,
>> 3. Analysis of history of visa applications of Wiki(m/p)edians. As I
>> understand, we never did such analysis and it could be useful as for passed
>> event, and for future events as well.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Levon Azizian
>> Wikimedia Ukraine
>>
>> 2017-07-04 15:02 GMT+03:00 Harry Mitchell :
>>
>>> It strikes me that it would be helpful to focus on how we 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[Dhaval S. Vyas]

Hi Jonathan,

With regard to the point 2, issuing scholarships early, how early is a
question. Most countries, if not all, only allows one to apply no more than
3 months prior to their intended date of travel, so notifying recipients 6
months in advance is not going to help them in anyways.

We need to learn the reason provided by visa processing agency for the
rejection, which can help others decide what to submit and what to expect.
I think in this thread also I have missed that if anyone mentioned the
official reason provided to them. I see points made about
invitation/sponsorship letter sent from US for Canada visa here but
uncertain whether that was officially the reason for rejection.

Regards,
Dhaval Vyas

On 4 Jul 2017 16:45, "Jonathan Cardy"  wrote:

> Hi Levin,
>
> Of your three points:
>
> 1 Is good, but I can remember one winning bid where there was a very
> strong reassurance at the bid stage which then didn't really work out well
> during the organisation stage. I'm not going to name the bid, but I will
> say that people ask questions and not every answer is 100% delivered. If
> questions have not been asked recently we need to start asking them again (
> I don't know if this was looked at during Montreal, I look at lots of
> Wikimania bids and often ask about visas, I don't remember looking at the
> Montreal bid).
>
> 2 Is a problem, some of the people who are going to have most difficulty
> getting visas are people who can only afford to come if they get a
> scholarship. Moving the whole scholarship process forward so we know who is
> going to come earlier would lose spontaneity of the event for others though
> it would help some get visas. But there are two things we could do. Firstly
> we could offer scholarships now  to next year's Wikimania to scholarship
> recipients who couldn't get visas to Montreal (and do that each year - this
> is not a new problem or an easy one). Secondly we could move the
> scholarship process forward for people coming from countries where visas
> are likely to be slow to get for the next Wikimania. That could mean two
> rounds of scholarship applications, one for one group of countries and a
> few months later for people from other countries. Not perfect but practical
> and probably helpful.
>
> 3 I'm pretty sure there has been analysis, at least to the level of number
> of non attendees due to visa failure per Wikimania. For Privacy reasons we
> need to be very careful with any more detailed data, but that number should
> be known and each Wikimania team should be aiming to be low on that list.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> On 4 Jul 2017, at 13:13, Levon Azizian  wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Regarding mentioned, I have some suggestions on mitigation risks for the
> future what could be done.
>
> 1. Visa support should be an important component for hosting community.
> Thus, during the bidding process of new location of Wikimania (or other
> huge event), each proposal of location should be considered not only from
> the prospective of visa-friendly policy, but on preliminary negotiations
> between local chapter (community) and local authorities (MFA or whatever).
> Thus, if let's say community of New Zealand get some positive negotiation's
> result from MFA of NZ on participant's visa support, it should be
> considered as a plus for this bid.
> 2. After the bid was chosen, local team should provide to local
> authorities the list of all participants who will participate at event and
> make sure that central authorities will transfer the lists to embassies and
> this lists will make a sense when decision on visa is made by embassy.
> Maybe it is not the most interesting thing, but hosting communities should
> take care on ability of their guests to visit the country,
> 3. Analysis of history of visa applications of Wiki(m/p)edians. As I
> understand, we never did such analysis and it could be useful as for passed
> event, and for future events as well.
>
> Regards,
> Levon Azizian
> Wikimedia Ukraine
>
> 2017-07-04 15:02 GMT+03:00 Harry Mitchell :
>
>> It strikes me that it would be helpful to focus on how we can improve the
>> visa process for attendees from (predominantly) African and Asian countries
>> rather than trying to find a utopia that has a very relaxed visa policy
>> *and* a palatable government *and* political stability *and* modern
>> infrastructure/transport links *and* is not excessively expensive for most
>> people to get to. It's certainly not helpful t pounce on people for making
>> good-faith suggestions, even if you think the suggestion is ludicrous.
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
> ___
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> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[Ivan Martínez]

I think there is an impossible task have a country to host a Wikimania with
all the ideal conditions. For an example, Canada and Mexico for better or
worse share borders with US, and there are many geopolitical factors and
mutual agreements derived from States strong advocacy around migration,
travel regulations and such conditioning the visa procedures.

Many other factors of rejection unfortunately are strictly personal and not
attributable to local organizers or WMF as lack of proving of funds to face
an emergency, or evidence of "reasons" to come back to the origin country
as jobs, family or schools. Talking with Foreign Affairs officials in
Mexico in 2015, I know that they aware about people in the past abused of
the attendance to (real or fake) international events to stay legal or
illegal in the country which invited them with good faith.

I know that is not the case of any colleague in the movement, but we need
to be aware about this strict rules and all the factors to consider around
the process and do our best to get people safe and present in Wikimania
cities.

Also I'm agree with Jonathan about kind of "next year" policy.

Best,




2017-07-04 10:45 GMT-05:00 Jonathan Cardy :

> Hi Levin,
>
> Of your three points:
>
> 1 Is good, but I can remember one winning bid where there was a very
> strong reassurance at the bid stage which then didn't really work out well
> during the organisation stage. I'm not going to name the bid, but I will
> say that people ask questions and not every answer is 100% delivered. If
> questions have not been asked recently we need to start asking them again (
> I don't know if this was looked at during Montreal, I look at lots of
> Wikimania bids and often ask about visas, I don't remember looking at the
> Montreal bid).
>
> 2 Is a problem, some of the people who are going to have most difficulty
> getting visas are people who can only afford to come if they get a
> scholarship. Moving the whole scholarship process forward so we know who is
> going to come earlier would lose spontaneity of the event for others though
> it would help some get visas. But there are two things we could do. Firstly
> we could offer scholarships now  to next year's Wikimania to scholarship
> recipients who couldn't get visas to Montreal (and do that each year - this
> is not a new problem or an easy one). Secondly we could move the
> scholarship process forward for people coming from countries where visas
> are likely to be slow to get for the next Wikimania. That could mean two
> rounds of scholarship applications, one for one group of countries and a
> few months later for people from other countries. Not perfect but practical
> and probably helpful.
>
> 3 I'm pretty sure there has been analysis, at least to the level of number
> of non attendees due to visa failure per Wikimania. For Privacy reasons we
> need to be very careful with any more detailed data, but that number should
> be known and each Wikimania team should be aiming to be low on that list.
>
>
> Regards
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> On 4 Jul 2017, at 13:13, Levon Azizian  wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Regarding mentioned, I have some suggestions on mitigation risks for the
> future what could be done.
>
> 1. Visa support should be an important component for hosting community.
> Thus, during the bidding process of new location of Wikimania (or other
> huge event), each proposal of location should be considered not only from
> the prospective of visa-friendly policy, but on preliminary negotiations
> between local chapter (community) and local authorities (MFA or whatever).
> Thus, if let's say community of New Zealand get some positive negotiation's
> result from MFA of NZ on participant's visa support, it should be
> considered as a plus for this bid.
> 2. After the bid was chosen, local team should provide to local
> authorities the list of all participants who will participate at event and
> make sure that central authorities will transfer the lists to embassies and
> this lists will make a sense when decision on visa is made by embassy.
> Maybe it is not the most interesting thing, but hosting communities should
> take care on ability of their guests to visit the country,
> 3. Analysis of history of visa applications of Wiki(m/p)edians. As I
> understand, we never did such analysis and it could be useful as for passed
> event, and for future events as well.
>
> Regards,
> Levon Azizian
> Wikimedia Ukraine
>
> 2017-07-04 15:02 GMT+03:00 Harry Mitchell :
>
>> It strikes me that it would be helpful to focus on how we can improve the
>> visa process for attendees from (predominantly) African and Asian countries
>> rather than trying to find a utopia that has a very relaxed visa policy
>> *and* a palatable government *and* political stability *and* modern
>> infrastructure/transport links *and* is not excessively expensive for most
>> people to get to. It's certainly not 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[Jonathan Cardy]

Hi Levin,

Of your three points:

1 Is good, but I can remember one winning bid where there was a very strong 
reassurance at the bid stage which then didn't really work out well during the 
organisation stage. I'm not going to name the bid, but I will say that people 
ask questions and not every answer is 100% delivered. If questions have not 
been asked recently we need to start asking them again ( I don't know if this 
was looked at during Montreal, I look at lots of Wikimania bids and often ask 
about visas, I don't remember looking at the Montreal bid).

2 Is a problem, some of the people who are going to have most difficulty 
getting visas are people who can only afford to come if they get a scholarship. 
Moving the whole scholarship process forward so we know who is going to come 
earlier would lose spontaneity of the event for others though it would help 
some get visas. But there are two things we could do. Firstly we could offer 
scholarships now  to next year's Wikimania to scholarship recipients who 
couldn't get visas to Montreal (and do that each year - this is not a new 
problem or an easy one). Secondly we could move the scholarship process forward 
for people coming from countries where visas are likely to be slow to get for 
the next Wikimania. That could mean two rounds of scholarship applications, one 
for one group of countries and a few months later for people from other 
countries. Not perfect but practical and probably helpful.

3 I'm pretty sure there has been analysis, at least to the level of number of 
non attendees due to visa failure per Wikimania. For Privacy reasons we need to 
be very careful with any more detailed data, but that number should be known 
and each Wikimania team should be aiming to be low on that list.


Regards

Jonathan 


> On 4 Jul 2017, at 13:13, Levon Azizian  wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Regarding mentioned, I have some suggestions on mitigation risks for the 
> future what could be done.
> 
> 1. Visa support should be an important component for hosting community. Thus, 
> during the bidding process of new location of Wikimania (or other huge 
> event), each proposal of location should be considered not only from the 
> prospective of visa-friendly policy, but on preliminary negotiations between 
> local chapter (community) and local authorities (MFA or whatever). Thus, if 
> let's say community of New Zealand get some positive negotiation's result 
> from MFA of NZ on participant's visa support, it should be considered as a 
> plus for this bid.
> 2. After the bid was chosen, local team should provide to local authorities 
> the list of all participants who will participate at event and make sure that 
> central authorities will transfer the lists to embassies and this lists will 
> make a sense when decision on visa is made by embassy. Maybe it is not the 
> most interesting thing, but hosting communities should take care on ability 
> of their guests to visit the country,
> 3. Analysis of history of visa applications of Wiki(m/p)edians. As I 
> understand, we never did such analysis and it could be useful as for passed 
> event, and for future events as well.
> 
> Regards,
> Levon Azizian
> Wikimedia Ukraine
> 
> 2017-07-04 15:02 GMT+03:00 Harry Mitchell :
>> It strikes me that it would be helpful to focus on how we can improve the 
>> visa process for attendees from (predominantly) African and Asian countries 
>> rather than trying to find a utopia that has a very relaxed visa policy 
>> *and* a palatable government *and* political stability *and* modern 
>> infrastructure/transport links *and* is not excessively expensive for most 
>> people to get to. It's certainly not helpful t pounce on people for making 
>> good-faith suggestions, even if you think the suggestion is ludicrous.
>> 
>> ___
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
> 
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[Shanmugam Pachamuthu]

I was not asking wmf or anyone other than the applicant to publish the
details. If the applicant is ok then they can publish. Again things that
you guys consider privicy sensitive may not be privacy sensitive to others.
It maybe a cultural difference or unawareness. For example Third question a
stranger asks you in my country would be what's your salary ;). So it's
upto the applicant.

On 04-Jul-2017 6:17 PM, "Levon Azizian"  wrote:

I support what Lodewijk told. This information may be collected only by WMF
staff who signed a contest that this info will not be shared with anyone,
otherwise than just statistics without personification. Personal data
protection is a very important issue.

Levon

2017-07-04 15:41 GMT+03:00 Lodewijk :

> Please don't. This is privacy sensitive information that might actually
> hurt people in future visa applications (for example, in another country).
>
> If you want to collect such info, I suggest you get someone with the
> proper privacy clearance with the WMF to collect it, and analyze it.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Shanmugam Pachamuthu <
> shanmuga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If it's ok with everyone, can we update this
>> 
>>  table with
>> visa status (Approved, Rejected, In progress)?
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Béria Lima  wrote:
>>
>>> Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath"  wrote:
>>>
>>> As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
>>> rejected.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jayanta Nath
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
 subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
 belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
 where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
 of citizens/residents of those countries.

 This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this
 year's Wikimania, let us stick to that please.

 Thanks,
 Dhaval

 On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB."  wrote:

 Hello,
 Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
 > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship
 (Egypt,
 > 2008), without particular problems.

 that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
 (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
 support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
 and other human rights.

 And cs, just to quote enwp:

 “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
 National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
 political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
 activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”

 The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
 even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
 conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.

 Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
 (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
 number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
 for a conference.

 Sincerely,
 DaB.



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>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Shanmugam Pachamuthu.
>>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[Shanmugam Pachamuthu]

I think WMF should already have this information. maybe we can ask them to
publish country wise anonymous data or something alike.

I agree that it's privacy sensitive data, maybe not a good idea to publish
along with username but for most of the visa applications we have to
publish our previous visa rejections, so it might not hurt other country
visa applications.

On 04-Jul-2017 6:12 PM, "Lodewijk"  wrote:

Please don't. This is privacy sensitive information that might actually
hurt people in future visa applications (for example, in another country).

If you want to collect such info, I suggest you get someone with the proper
privacy clearance with the WMF to collect it, and analyze it.

Lodewijk

On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Shanmugam Pachamuthu 
wrote:

> If it's ok with everyone, can we update this
> 
>  table with
> visa status (Approved, Rejected, In progress)?
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Béria Lima  wrote:
>
>> Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?
>>
>>
>> On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath"  wrote:
>>
>> As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
>> rejected.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jayanta Nath
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas  wrote:
>>
>>> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
>>> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
>>> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
>>> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
>>> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>>>
>>> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
>>> Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dhaval
>>>
>>> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB."  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
>>> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship
>>> (Egypt,
>>> > 2008), without particular problems.
>>>
>>> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
>>> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
>>> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
>>> and other human rights.
>>>
>>> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>>>
>>> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
>>> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
>>> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
>>> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
>>> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>>>
>>> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
>>> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
>>> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>>>
>>> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
>>> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
>>> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
>>> for a conference.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> DaB.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
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>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Thanks & Regards,
> Shanmugam Pachamuthu.
>
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>

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Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[Levon Azizian]

I support what Lodewijk told. This information may be collected only by WMF
staff who signed a contest that this info will not be shared with anyone,
otherwise than just statistics without personification. Personal data
protection is a very important issue.

Levon

2017-07-04 15:41 GMT+03:00 Lodewijk :

> Please don't. This is privacy sensitive information that might actually
> hurt people in future visa applications (for example, in another country).
>
> If you want to collect such info, I suggest you get someone with the
> proper privacy clearance with the WMF to collect it, and analyze it.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Shanmugam Pachamuthu <
> shanmuga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If it's ok with everyone, can we update this
>> 
>>  table with
>> visa status (Approved, Rejected, In progress)?
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Béria Lima  wrote:
>>
>>> Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath"  wrote:
>>>
>>> As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
>>> rejected.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jayanta Nath
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
 subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
 belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
 where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
 of citizens/residents of those countries.

 This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this
 year's Wikimania, let us stick to that please.

 Thanks,
 Dhaval

 On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB."  wrote:

 Hello,
 Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
 > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship
 (Egypt,
 > 2008), without particular problems.

 that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
 (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
 support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
 and other human rights.

 And cs, just to quote enwp:

 “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
 National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
 political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
 activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”

 The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
 even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
 conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.

 Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
 (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
 number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
 for a conference.

 Sincerely,
 DaB.



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>>>
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>>
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>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Shanmugam Pachamuthu.
>>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[Lodewijk]

Please don't. This is privacy sensitive information that might actually
hurt people in future visa applications (for example, in another country).

If you want to collect such info, I suggest you get someone with the proper
privacy clearance with the WMF to collect it, and analyze it.

Lodewijk

On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Shanmugam Pachamuthu 
wrote:

> If it's ok with everyone, can we update this
> 
>  table with
> visa status (Approved, Rejected, In progress)?
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Béria Lima  wrote:
>
>> Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?
>>
>>
>> On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath"  wrote:
>>
>> As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
>> rejected.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jayanta Nath
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas  wrote:
>>
>>> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
>>> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
>>> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
>>> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
>>> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>>>
>>> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
>>> Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dhaval
>>>
>>> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB."  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
>>> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship
>>> (Egypt,
>>> > 2008), without particular problems.
>>>
>>> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
>>> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
>>> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
>>> and other human rights.
>>>
>>> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>>>
>>> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
>>> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
>>> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
>>> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
>>> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>>>
>>> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
>>> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
>>> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>>>
>>> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
>>> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
>>> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
>>> for a conference.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> DaB.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
> --
> Thanks & Regards,
> Shanmugam Pachamuthu.
>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[Shanmugam Pachamuthu]

If it's ok with everyone, can we update this

table with
visa status (Approved, Rejected, In progress)?


On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 5:16 PM, Béria Lima  wrote:

> Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?
>
>
> On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath"  wrote:
>
> As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
> rejected.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jayanta Nath
>
> On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas  wrote:
>
>> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
>> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
>> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
>> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
>> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>>
>> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
>> Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dhaval
>>
>> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB."  wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
>> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
>> > 2008), without particular problems.
>>
>> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
>> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
>> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
>> and other human rights.
>>
>> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>>
>> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
>> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
>> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
>> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
>> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>>
>> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
>> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
>> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>>
>> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
>> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
>> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
>> for a conference.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> DaB.
>>
>>
>>
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>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>>
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-- 
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Shanmugam Pachamuthu.
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[Harry Mitchell]

It strikes me that it would be helpful to focus on how we can improve the
visa process for attendees from (predominantly) African and Asian countries
rather than trying to find a utopia that has a very relaxed visa policy
*and* a palatable government *and* political stability *and* modern
infrastructure/transport links *and* is not excessively expensive for most
people to get to. It's certainly not helpful t pounce on people for making
good-faith suggestions, even if you think the suggestion is ludicrous.
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[Béria Lima]

Out of how many people who tried for a visa from those countries?

On Jul 3, 2017 14:09, "Jayanta Nath"  wrote:

As per latest update: from India 4 Indian, 3 Armenian and 3/2 African
rejected.

Regards,

Jayanta Nath

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Dhaval S. Vyas  wrote:

> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
> subject suggests? What European medias has shown and what any individual's
> belief for any country of the world could be fun to discuss on social media
> where more people can join. These kind of personal views can hurt feelings
> of citizens/residents of those countries.
>
> This thread started with the issues faced in getting visa to this year's
> Wikimania, let us stick to that please.
>
> Thanks,
> Dhaval
>
> On 3 Jul 2017 17:18, "DaB."  wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Am 03.07.2017 um 04:41 schrieb Asaf Bartov:
> > DaB.: Wikimania has already been held in a military dictatorship (Egypt,
> > 2008), without particular problems.
>
> that’s not a reason to repeat the mistake. If you held an event
> (especially such a big one as the Wikimania) in a dictatorship, you
> support this dictatorship. You support the suppression of free speech
> and other human rights.
>
> And cs, just to quote enwp:
>
> “Since May 2014 Thailand has been ruled by a military junta, the
> National Council for Peace and Order, which has partially repealed the
> 2007 constitution, declared martial law and nationwide curfew, banned
> political gatherings, arrested and detained politicians and anti-coup
> activists, imposed internet censorship and taken control of the media.”
>
> The conflicts of the yellow- and the red-shirt-people were so bad you
> even got reports in European news-programs on TV, and so was the
> conflict of the Preah Vihear Temple. So please try not to fool me.
>
> Thailand is surely a great country, but it has many problems
> (dictatorship, civil uprisings, corruption, police-corruption, high
> number of deaths on road traffic, and so on) that makes it unsuitable
> for a conference.
>
> Sincerely,
> DaB.
>
>
>
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Visa rejections

[DaB.]

Hello,
Am 03.07.2017 um 19:04 schrieb Dhaval S. Vyas:
> Can we please not keep this thread dedicated to the discussion that the
> subject suggests?

it was cs who tried to advertise a unfit country – where were you
„please stick to the topic“-mail then?

And sorry that telling the truth COULD hurt some feelings. There is this
arabic saying that you can’t carry the torch of truth through a throng
without burning some beards.

And no, you don’t need to answer. Learning that some people in the
movements support dictatorships was bad enough for this week.

Sincerely,
DaB.




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