Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-30 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Ziko van Dijk, 29/12/2012 17:36:

I'm confident to see soon a Wikimedia Medicine as the model for some
other thematic organizations, and I am curious how it will evolve.
Maybe I will never understand what is a foundation in the US. In the
Netherlands or Germany, we distinguish between an association (with
members) and a foundation (without members, only the board members).
In the US, it seems, both can be a foundation and decide wether to
allow members or not.


Members are not really the point, those are things which can vary a lot 
across countries and different kinds of foundations in the same country.
In extremely general terms, I think it can be safely said that a 
foundation exists for the sole purpose of preserving its assets for a 
scope, while an association is a group of persons with some common scope.
[Of course I know nothing on the topic and terms/forms can be stretched 
so much... but no less than Machiavelli (1511) supports this according 
to my etymological dictionary, and he's even more esteemed in USA than 
Italy/continental Europe. ;-)]
See e.g. the WMF whose sole scope is preserving and increasing the value 
of the trademarks and whose board is self-appointed and self-perpetuating.


Nemo

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[Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-29 Thread James Heilman
Hum yes. We wanted Wikimedia Medicine, than where not able to get
permission to us Wikimedia so changed it to Wiki Medicine, NY state did not
like Medicine (and if we wanted to use it we needed permission from some
medical board) so abbreviated that as well giving us Wiki Med. NY state
added the Foundation Inc. bit.

The hope is to one day operate under the name Wikimedia Medicine. Hopefully
with a bit of paper work this can be achieved.

-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-29 Thread Federico Leva (Nemo)

Leinonen Teemu, 29/12/2012 15:20:

Hi,

I think the thematic organizations are good for the movement. Could the naming 
of the affiliated thematic organizations be primary based on the Wikipedia 
Portal namespaces (from all the Wikipedia's in different languages)?


See 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Wikimedia_Thematic_Organizationsdiff=prevoldid=4922772 
for a similar provocation I made...




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Portals

With this logic the Wiki Med could be Wikimedia Health.


The portal is not called Wikimedia though. :-)

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-29 Thread Birgitte_sb
I am not affiliated with Wiki Med. However as an American, Health to my ear 
means scammy quacky bullshit that wants to pretend it is medicine for the $$$.  
There are real reasons NY does not let an organization use the title Medicine 
without approval from the medical board. And all those reasons use the title 
Health or Healing  instead. I imagine the members of an organization like 
Wiki Med are more than normally aware of this and would be more than normally 
distressed to be associated with this. After all, the majority of Wikipedian 
medical editors seem dedicate a good portion of their time to keeping the 
scammy quacky bullshit out of the medical articles.

Birgitte SB

On Dec 29, 2012, at 8:20 AM, Leinonen Teemu teemu.leino...@aalto.fi wrote:

 Hi,
 
 I think the thematic organizations are good for the movement. Could the 
 naming of the affiliated thematic organizations be primary based on the 
 Wikipedia Portal namespaces (from all the Wikipedia's in different languages)?
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Portals
 
 With this logic the Wiki Med could be Wikimedia Health.
 
 - Teemu
 
 On 28.12.2012, at 19.29, Ziko van Dijk 
 vand...@wmnederland.nlmailto:vand...@wmnederland.nl wrote:
 
 Dear James,
 
 My sincere congratulations for this important step, and I am really
 very happy with a Wikimedia Medicine. But the name Wiki Med
 Foundation - I find the choice for that name just strange (I saw the
 discussion on Meta too late). Wikimedia Health, by the way, would be
 as great as Wikimedia Medicine. I understood that there problems in
 the State of New York to use medicine in the title. So, Wiki
 Health could have been an alternative until recognition from the
 AffCom.
 
 Kind regards
 Ziko
 
 
 2012/12/29 James Heilman jmh...@gmail.commailto:jmh...@gmail.com:
 Yes so Wiki Med Foundation Inc incorporated Dec 19, 2012 and we had our
 first official board meeting Dec 26, 2012. We have had expressed interest
 from 57 people from more than a dozen countries with a large group of
 interested members from India. Our 9 board members are from 7 different
 countries.
 
 Our first official event is being held January 7-11th at the University of
 California San Francisco in collaboration with Wikimedia Canada. We have
 been invited by the college of medicine to give a half dozen lectures on
 Wikipedia and Medicine and a few editing sessions where students and staff
 can try their hand at editing themselves. This is in preparation for an
 elective for 3rd and 4th year medical students which will resolve around
 contribution to Wikimedia projects hopefully to launch in the spring.
 
 Of course we are a new corporation, however our membership is composed of
 people who have extensive experience within the Wikimedia movement. Once we
 have had a chance to prove ourselves over the next 6 month we will re
 approach the aff com / Wikimedia movement to determine if an official
 association is desired. Currently as stated by Bence we are not officially
 associated.
 
 --
 James Heilman
 MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
 
 The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
 www.opentextbookofmedicine.comhttp://www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
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 ---
 Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
 dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter
 http://wmnederland.nl/
 
 Wikimedia Nederland
 Postbus 167
 3500 AD Utrecht
 ---
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-29 Thread Leinonen Teemu
On 29.12.2012, at 9.35, birgitte...@yahoo.com birgitte...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I am not affiliated with Wiki Med. However as an American, Health to my ear 
 means scammy quacky bullshit that wants to pretend it is medicine for the $$$.

OK. I am sure in the US the World *Health* Organization is also seen by many as 
scammy quacky bullshit that wants to pretend it is medicine for the $$$. :-) 

In other places the WHO is the international organization that is concerned 
with public *health*.

-Teemu
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-29 Thread Ziko van Dijk
I'm confident to see soon a Wikimedia Medicine as the model for some
other thematic organizations, and I am curious how it will evolve.
Maybe I will never understand what is a foundation in the US. In the
Netherlands or Germany, we distinguish between an association (with
members) and a foundation (without members, only the board members).
In the US, it seems, both can be a foundation and decide wether to
allow members or not.
Kind regards
Ziko

PS: I did not invent the abbreviation thorg, and I only learned
later that thorg exists in the Marvel and WoW universes. :-)


2012/12/29 James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com:
 Hum yes. We wanted Wikimedia Medicine, than where not able to get
 permission to us Wikimedia so changed it to Wiki Medicine, NY state did not
 like Medicine (and if we wanted to use it we needed permission from some
 medical board) so abbreviated that as well giving us Wiki Med. NY state
 added the Foundation Inc. bit.

 The hope is to one day operate under the name Wikimedia Medicine. Hopefully
 with a bit of paper work this can be achieved.

 --
 James Heilman
 MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

 The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
 www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
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-- 

---
Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
dr. Ziko van Dijk, voorzitter
http://wmnederland.nl/

Wikimedia Nederland
Postbus 167
3500 AD Utrecht
---

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-29 Thread Florence Devouard

On 12/29/12 1:15 AM, David Gerard wrote:

On 29 December 2012 00:05, James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com wrote:


Yes so Wiki Med Foundation Inc incorporated Dec 19, 2012 and we had our



Isn't the name just a little prone to confusion with Wikimedia Foundation?


- d.

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At the same time, Wiki is not a trademarked term and the term 
Foundation is a pretty usual one as well (in particular if it is 
indeed a Foundation...).


It is certainly sufficient to dismiss any confusion if they do not use 
our logos, our colors and do not try to pretend they somehow are 
affiliated.


Flo


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-29 Thread Florence Devouard

On 12/29/12 6:05 PM, Kirill Lokshin wrote:

On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.comwrote:


At the same time, Wiki is not a trademarked term and the term Foundation
is a pretty usual one as well (in particular if it is indeed a
Foundation...).



You're correct as far as each individual term is concerned, but I'm not
sure the same logic applies to the name as a whole.  In my opinion, Wiki
Med Foundation and Wikimedia Foundation are indeed so similar as to
cause confusion between the two, particularly when the new organization
*is* intending to use the same colors/logos/slogans/etc. as the WMF.

Kirill
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If that's their intent, yeah, that's annoying.

At the minimum, until they are affiliated, they should avoid doing this 
to limit the confusion (temporary logo and adoption of purple/pink brand 
colors :)).


After affiliation, I suppose they may have the officially declared name 
(which will hardly be used) and the day-to-day name.





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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-29 Thread Samuel Klein
On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.comwrote:

 On 12/29/12 6:05 PM, Kirill Lokshin wrote:

 On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Florence Devouard anthe...@yahoo.com
 wrote:

  At the same time, Wiki is not a trademarked term and the term
 Foundation
 is a pretty usual one as well (in particular if it is indeed a
 Foundation...).


 You're correct as far as each individual term is concerned, but I'm not
 sure the same logic applies to the name as a whole.  In my opinion, Wiki
 Med Foundation and Wikimedia Foundation are indeed so similar as to
 cause confusion between the two, particularly when the new organization
 *is* intending to use the same colors/logos/slogans/etc. as the WMF.


It seems guaranteed to cause confusion.

Wiki Med strikes me as the second most confusing possible name for an
associated group.
The most confusing would be a multimedia / news organization named Wiki
Media.
I hope the medical group will change its name officially and permanently.

SJ
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-29 Thread MZMcBride
Samuel Klein wrote:
 It seems guaranteed to cause confusion.
 
 Wiki Med strikes me as the second most confusing possible name for an
 associated group.
 The most confusing would be a multimedia / news organization named Wiki
 Media.
 I hope the medical group will change its name officially and permanently.

Second most confusing? I guess you missed the wikitech-l thread about a
possible MediaWiki Foundation.

[snip]
 Yes, what the world needs is another horribly confusingly named foundation.
 After we establish the MediaWiki Foundation, we can start work on the
 MikiWedia Foundation and the WediaMiki Foundation. ;-)
[/snip]

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2012-August/062843.html

MZMcBride



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-29 Thread Samuel Klein
On Dec 29, 2012 2:22 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 Samuel Klein wrote:
  It seems guaranteed to cause confusion.
 
  Wiki Med strikes me as the second most confusing possible name for an
  associated group.
  The most confusing would be a multimedia / news organization named Wiki
  Media.
  I hope the medical group will change its name officially and
permanently.

 Second most confusing? I guess you missed the wikitech-l thread about a
 possible MediaWiki Foundation.

True! I must have misplaced my humerus this morning.

Alas we started down the MW/WM road a while ago.

 [snip]
  Yes, what the world needs is another horribly confusingly named
foundation.
  After we establish the MediaWiki Foundation, we can start work on the
  MikiWedia Foundation and the WediaMiki Foundation. ;-)
 [/snip]

Not to mention wikiproject Wikidemia (to which I confess), Mickeymedia,
WikiaMidi, and Nintendo injury research foundation WiiMedika...

The 'Wiki Med' Foundation has lots of company... in theory, not in
practice.  I thought it was tongue in cheek until an actual registration
was filed :). I now see that not everyone recognizes the potential for
confusion.
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[Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-28 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Hello,
A week ago, as I found out now, a new association has been found in
New York: Wiki Med Foundation, Inc. (!). We have the Wikimedia
Foundation, Inc., we have some other Wikimedias, we have MediaWiki...
how is the ordinary man on the street supposed to have the slightest
chance to understand the Wikimedia movement? He even confuses
Wikimedia with Wikileaks...
I know that that is not the case, but sometimes it even seems that
Wikimedians do want to make the movement a terminogical labyrinth. The
WMF came with a simple scheme for national chapters, with the formula
Wikimedia X (with X being the name of the country). I wish something
similar for thematic organizations and Wikimedia user groups, and not
the advice to even avoid the term Wikimedia. Confusing terms are a
serious barrier for participation, on Wikipedia and in the larger
movement.
Kind regards,
Ziko


If I could talk to the wiki folks, just imagine it
Chatting with a chick on IRC
Imagine talking on a talk page, buzzing from a banner
What a neat achievement that would be.

If I could talk to the wiki folks, learn their languages
Maybe take a data dump degree.
I'd study mastodon and diesel, camel case and weasel,
Interwiki, vandal and IP.

I would converse in C++ and Python,
And I would curse in fluent wikify.
If people asked me, can you speak sock puppetry,
I'd say, 'Of coursery, but why?'

If I conferred with our fuzzy friends, man to editor,
Think of the amazing repartee
If I could talk to the wiki folks, fork to the wiki folks,
Diff and rev and link with the wiki folks,
And they could diff and rev and link with me.

If I could speak CC-BY-SA
The advantages any sandbox noob could plainly see!
Discussing worldwide GLAM and drama
With oh so witty llama
That’s a big step forward you’ll agree!

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-28 Thread Thomas Dalton
Very nice! I'll expect a performance in Hong Kong!

On a serious note, have you seen Geoff's comments on naming of affiliate
organisations?
On Dec 28, 2012 4:18 PM, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl wrote:

 Hello,
 A week ago, as I found out now, a new association has been found in
 New York: Wiki Med Foundation, Inc. (!). We have the Wikimedia
 Foundation, Inc., we have some other Wikimedias, we have MediaWiki...
 how is the ordinary man on the street supposed to have the slightest
 chance to understand the Wikimedia movement? He even confuses
 Wikimedia with Wikileaks...
 I know that that is not the case, but sometimes it even seems that
 Wikimedians do want to make the movement a terminogical labyrinth. The
 WMF came with a simple scheme for national chapters, with the formula
 Wikimedia X (with X being the name of the country). I wish something
 similar for thematic organizations and Wikimedia user groups, and not
 the advice to even avoid the term Wikimedia. Confusing terms are a
 serious barrier for participation, on Wikipedia and in the larger
 movement.
 Kind regards,
 Ziko


 If I could talk to the wiki folks, just imagine it
 Chatting with a chick on IRC
 Imagine talking on a talk page, buzzing from a banner
 What a neat achievement that would be.

 If I could talk to the wiki folks, learn their languages
 Maybe take a data dump degree.
 I'd study mastodon and diesel, camel case and weasel,
 Interwiki, vandal and IP.

 I would converse in C++ and Python,
 And I would curse in fluent wikify.
 If people asked me, can you speak sock puppetry,
 I'd say, 'Of coursery, but why?'

 If I conferred with our fuzzy friends, man to editor,
 Think of the amazing repartee
 If I could talk to the wiki folks, fork to the wiki folks,
 Diff and rev and link with the wiki folks,
 And they could diff and rev and link with me.

 If I could speak CC-BY-SA
 The advantages any sandbox noob could plainly see!
 Discussing worldwide GLAM and drama
 With oh so witty llama
 That’s a big step forward you’ll agree!

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-28 Thread Lodewijk
Hi,

it should probably be emphasized that this organization was founded against
the advice of the Wikimedia Foundations' Affiliate Committee. It is not
recognized at this point.

I am also quite unhappy about the chosen name because of the obvious
confusion that is to be expected. But speaking in general terms, you're
indeed welcome to join the discussion about naming that has been going on
for a while now, on
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Thematic_Organizations .
While it is not likely to be possible to have a very rigid convention
(thanks to the diversity in the scopes of these organizations) I would
appreciate suggestions in how clarity can be achieved.

Best,
Lodewijk

2012/12/28 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com

 Very nice! I'll expect a performance in Hong Kong!

 On a serious note, have you seen Geoff's comments on naming of affiliate
 organisations?
 On Dec 28, 2012 4:18 PM, Ziko van Dijk vand...@wmnederland.nl wrote:

  Hello,
  A week ago, as I found out now, a new association has been found in
  New York: Wiki Med Foundation, Inc. (!). We have the Wikimedia
  Foundation, Inc., we have some other Wikimedias, we have MediaWiki...
  how is the ordinary man on the street supposed to have the slightest
  chance to understand the Wikimedia movement? He even confuses
  Wikimedia with Wikileaks...
  I know that that is not the case, but sometimes it even seems that
  Wikimedians do want to make the movement a terminogical labyrinth. The
  WMF came with a simple scheme for national chapters, with the formula
  Wikimedia X (with X being the name of the country). I wish something
  similar for thematic organizations and Wikimedia user groups, and not
  the advice to even avoid the term Wikimedia. Confusing terms are a
  serious barrier for participation, on Wikipedia and in the larger
  movement.
  Kind regards,
  Ziko
 
 
  If I could talk to the wiki folks, just imagine it
  Chatting with a chick on IRC
  Imagine talking on a talk page, buzzing from a banner
  What a neat achievement that would be.
 
  If I could talk to the wiki folks, learn their languages
  Maybe take a data dump degree.
  I'd study mastodon and diesel, camel case and weasel,
  Interwiki, vandal and IP.
 
  I would converse in C++ and Python,
  And I would curse in fluent wikify.
  If people asked me, can you speak sock puppetry,
  I'd say, 'Of coursery, but why?'
 
  If I conferred with our fuzzy friends, man to editor,
  Think of the amazing repartee
  If I could talk to the wiki folks, fork to the wiki folks,
  Diff and rev and link with the wiki folks,
  And they could diff and rev and link with me.
 
  If I could speak CC-BY-SA
  The advantages any sandbox noob could plainly see!
  Discussing worldwide GLAM and drama
  With oh so witty llama
  That’s a big step forward you’ll agree!
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-28 Thread Thomas Dalton
On Dec 28, 2012 7:12 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote:

 Hi,

 it should probably be emphasized that this organization was founded
against
 the advice of the Wikimedia Foundations' Affiliate Committee. It is not
 recognized at this point.

Does it have a license to use the Wikimedia trademark in its name?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-28 Thread Bence Damokos
Thank you Ziko – your post is great! (
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Thematic_Organizations#Scope_and_names_for_movement_entities
)

Best regards,
Bence

(P.S. AffCom is still looking for new members ready to think about the hard
questions that are raised there:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Call_for_Candidates_2013
)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-28 Thread Bence Damokos
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Dec 28, 2012 7:12 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  it should probably be emphasized that this organization was founded
 against
  the advice of the Wikimedia Foundations' Affiliate Committee. It is not
  recognized at this point.

 Does it have a license to use the Wikimedia trademark in its name?

If you mean Wiki Med, it doesn't currently have the trademark in the name.
(Wiki Med Foundation Inc.)

Best regards,
Bence

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-28 Thread Matthew Roth
Wow, I want to start a Thematic Organization just so I can call it a
thorg!
What a great acronym :)

On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 1:51 PM, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thank you Ziko – your post is great! (

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Thematic_Organizations#Scope_and_names_for_movement_entities
 )

 Best regards,
 Bence

 (P.S. AffCom is still looking for new members ready to think about the hard
 questions that are raised there:

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee/Call_for_Candidates_2013
 )
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-- 

Matthew Roth
Global Communications Manager
Wikimedia Foundation
+1.415.839.6885 ext 6635
www.wikimediafoundation.org
*https://donate.wikimedia.org*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-28 Thread James Heilman
Yes so Wiki Med Foundation Inc incorporated Dec 19, 2012 and we had our
first official board meeting Dec 26, 2012. We have had expressed interest
from 57 people from more than a dozen countries with a large group of
interested members from India. Our 9 board members are from 7 different
countries.

Our first official event is being held January 7-11th at the University of
California San Francisco in collaboration with Wikimedia Canada. We have
been invited by the college of medicine to give a half dozen lectures on
Wikipedia and Medicine and a few editing sessions where students and staff
can try their hand at editing themselves. This is in preparation for an
elective for 3rd and 4th year medical students which will resolve around
contribution to Wikimedia projects hopefully to launch in the spring.

Of course we are a new corporation, however our membership is composed of
people who have extensive experience within the Wikimedia movement. Once we
have had a chance to prove ourselves over the next 6 month we will re
approach the aff com / Wikimedia movement to determine if an official
association is desired. Currently as stated by Bence we are not officially
associated.

-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
www.opentextbookofmedicine.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-28 Thread David Gerard
On 29 December 2012 00:05, James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Yes so Wiki Med Foundation Inc incorporated Dec 19, 2012 and we had our


Isn't the name just a little prone to confusion with Wikimedia Foundation?


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] If I could talk to the wiki folks...

2012-12-28 Thread Thomas Dalton
On Dec 28, 2012 9:53 PM, Bence Damokos bdamo...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com
wrote:

  On Dec 28, 2012 7:12 PM, Lodewijk lodew...@effeietsanders.org wrote:
  
   Hi,
  
   it should probably be emphasized that this organization was founded
  against
   the advice of the Wikimedia Foundations' Affiliate Committee. It is
not
   recognized at this point.
 
  Does it have a license to use the Wikimedia trademark in its name?
 
 If you mean Wiki Med, it doesn't currently have the trademark in the name.

Apologies, wasn't reading carefully enough!
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