Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Few concerns
Hello, WaohI would like to thank everyone for the zakaas explanations, that needed quiet a time to read with my blurring vision these days. But these explanations raised few more Concerns like Bragging Boasting the relationship about the said persons, viz. some international conference yet to be replicated which happened two years back! Oh the world was gonna end in 2012, well that's history now too. As someone stated offering pro-bono services through my company and even offering jobs to several Wikipedians.To my opinion offering pro-bono services is always good may the almighty God bless all those, but adding through my company concerns me a lot. Besides the statement offering jobs to several Wikipedians, wouldn't it create the same issue what we are suffering here the employer - employee relationship issue in my company? ...have been involved in preparing our FDC application, spending several hours a week, into the wee hours of the night on a regular basis apart from juggling their professional commitments during the dayWe all assume good faith behind the generous efforts though, oh I miss those good old days when everyone was driven by passion and interest. And last but not the least, I appreciate my red nosed twin backing up with ..a nominal amount as compensation for the time spent training there oh he knows a lot we presume besides just knowing the exact meaning of nominal amount?Ha well the said persons are busy as it seems from the statements and it would be too cumbersome to reply individually to many personal mails, don't you think so? That's All Folks! Love,Bludolf From: anirudh...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 00:54:09 +0700 To: wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Few concerns Thank you, Moksh, for the email above. I would like to add that I have known Karthik for the past few years now and I trust him to act in a manner that is in the best interests of the chapter and the community. From what I already know, Karthik has been interning at Moksh's firm and received a nominal amount as compensation for the time spent training there. Members of the community who are more interested in understanding the issue closely, should probably consider contacting Karthik privately to understand the nature of his professional relationship with Moksh. Karthik is a long-term member of the community motivated by nothing more than the labour of love. Moksh has been very generous with his time and has spent considerable resources supporting the Wikimedia community in Mumbai. He has also graciously agreed to become a part of the Executive Committee at a time when there were not many experienced volunteers willing to commit more time in terms of supporting the chapter as a part of its board. Pranav has also been a long-standing member of the Wikimedia community in India and most of us are acquainted with the work that he has performed as a part of the organizing team of the WikiConference India 2011 event. My request to anyone interested in following up on this issue is to perhaps consider contacting the concerned persons directly and see if they are able to resolve the issue for you in a manner that is satisfactory. Kind Regards, Anirudh Bhati On 10/04/2013 02:37 PM, Moksh Juneja wrote: A question came up on this list about some employer-employee relationships within the chapter board. This is to clarify that the stated relationships between the said persons have ended/in the process of ending with notice being served prior to this issue being brought up (certainly not because of this email and prior to it). This is not to brag but to state background. I would like to further state in particular have been extremely generous in supporting Wikipedia activities in Mumbai for several years now, organising local events, offering my office for meetups and official purposes, bearing expenses in some cases, offering pro-bono services through my company and even offering jobs to several Wikipedians. Pranav and I were two people instrumental in ensuring the success of our first national conference 2 years ago. This is something that is yet to be replicated. Pranav was recently instrumental in our first victory with the government recently, a major win for the chapter in India to have them apply a Wikipedia complaint license to open knowledge resources
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Few concerns
Thank you, Moksh, for the email above. I would like to add that I have known Karthik for the past few years now and I trust him to act in a manner that is in the best interests of the chapter and the community. From what I already know, Karthik has been interning at Moksh's firm and received a nominal amount as compensation for the time spent training there. Members of the community who are more interested in understanding the issue closely, should probably consider contacting Karthik privately to understand the nature of his professional relationship with Moksh. Karthik is a long-term member of the community motivated by nothing more than the labour of love. Moksh has been very generous with his time and has spent considerable resources supporting the Wikimedia community in Mumbai. He has also graciously agreed to become a part of the Executive Committee at a time when there were not many experienced volunteers willing to commit more time in terms of supporting the chapter as a part of its board. Pranav has also been a long-standing member of the Wikimedia community in India and most of us are acquainted with the work that he has performed as a part of the organizing team of the WikiConference India 2011 event. My request to anyone interested in following up on this issue is to perhaps consider contacting the concerned persons directly and see if they are able to resolve the issue for you in a manner that is satisfactory. Kind Regards, Anirudh Bhati On 10/04/2013 02:37 PM, Moksh Juneja wrote: A question came up on this list about some employer-employee relationships within the chapter board. This is to clarify that the stated relationships between the said persons have ended/in the process of ending with notice being served prior to this issue being brought up (certainly not because of this email and prior to it). This is not to brag but to state background. I would like to further state in particular have been extremely generous in supporting Wikipedia activities in Mumbai for several years now, organising local events, offering my office for meetups and official purposes, bearing expenses in some cases, offering pro-bono services through my company and even offering jobs to several Wikipedians. Pranav and I were two people instrumental in ensuring the success of our first national conference 2 years ago. This is something that is yet to be replicated. Pranav was recently instrumental in our first victory with the government recently, a major win for the chapter in India to have them apply a Wikipedia complaint license to open knowledge resources for the first time ever. Karthik has been one of the lead organisers of the chapters biggest photo contest, our biggest success of the last financial year. All of us have been an integral part of several chapter activities during the last year. In the recent weeks, both Pranav and Karthik have been involved in preparing our FDC application, spending several hours a week, into the wee hours of the night on a regular basis apart from juggling their professional commitments during the day. All of us have been actively involved in the Wikimedia Conference bid. All of us were Wikipedians first before anything else, meeting each other through Wikipedia, having our own independent thinking which remains unaffected and one common goal as unpaid volunteers working out of love for the movement as a cause. We assure everyone that there is no COI that may affect any of our functioning in the EC and performing our duties at the chapter. One thing we have learnt from this is that there is a need for a formal public document that details what COI is and when disclosures need to be made. We will push for such a document to be created within the EC. At the same time, we humbly appeal that the community assume good faith towards our efforts and help/support the chapter and movement in India. We are working towards building greater synergies, understanding and team-building within the EC leadership, SIG Chairs and key members of the chapter and volunteers in India in an effort to strengthen our very foundations with a long term view and we cannot do this without your help and support. Moksh On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Hari Prasad Nadig hpna...@gmail.comwrote: Shyamal, You reminded me of the good old days of Wikipedia - the movement that wasn't centered around money, but driven by interest and volunteering. I hope that what you've written about Wikiculture shall be read by many here and if that is understood by more people in coming days, the Indian 'community' can get a wee bit healthier. Of late, whenever I switch over to read the conversations on this list, it is not just intrigue but profound disgust that emerges. On 25 September 2013 10:03, Shyamal L. lshya...@gmail.com wrote: Apologies for the rant that follows and can be conveniently skipped by the busy folks here. I am quite intrigued by the kinds of discussion on this
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Few concerns
A question came up on this list about some employer-employee relationships within the chapter board. This is to clarify that the stated relationships between the said persons have ended/in the process of ending with notice being served prior to this issue being brought up (certainly not because of this email and prior to it). This is not to brag but to state background. I would like to further state in particular have been extremely generous in supporting Wikipedia activities in Mumbai for several years now, organising local events, offering my office for meetups and official purposes, bearing expenses in some cases, offering pro-bono services through my company and even offering jobs to several Wikipedians. Pranav and I were two people instrumental in ensuring the success of our first national conference 2 years ago. This is something that is yet to be replicated. Pranav was recently instrumental in our first victory with the government recently, a major win for the chapter in India to have them apply a Wikipedia complaint license to open knowledge resources for the first time ever. Karthik has been one of the lead organisers of the chapters biggest photo contest, our biggest success of the last financial year. All of us have been an integral part of several chapter activities during the last year. In the recent weeks, both Pranav and Karthik have been involved in preparing our FDC application, spending several hours a week, into the wee hours of the night on a regular basis apart from juggling their professional commitments during the day. All of us have been actively involved in the Wikimedia Conference bid. All of us were Wikipedians first before anything else, meeting each other through Wikipedia, having our own independent thinking which remains unaffected and one common goal as unpaid volunteers working out of love for the movement as a cause. We assure everyone that there is no COI that may affect any of our functioning in the EC and performing our duties at the chapter. One thing we have learnt from this is that there is a need for a formal public document that details what COI is and when disclosures need to be made. We will push for such a document to be created within the EC. At the same time, we humbly appeal that the community assume good faith towards our efforts and help/support the chapter and movement in India. We are working towards building greater synergies, understanding and team-building within the EC leadership, SIG Chairs and key members of the chapter and volunteers in India in an effort to strengthen our very foundations with a long term view and we cannot do this without your help and support. Moksh On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Hari Prasad Nadig hpna...@gmail.comwrote: Shyamal, You reminded me of the good old days of Wikipedia - the movement that wasn't centered around money, but driven by interest and volunteering. I hope that what you've written about Wikiculture shall be read by many here and if that is understood by more people in coming days, the Indian 'community' can get a wee bit healthier. Of late, whenever I switch over to read the conversations on this list, it is not just intrigue but profound disgust that emerges. On 25 September 2013 10:03, Shyamal L. lshya...@gmail.com wrote: Apologies for the rant that follows and can be conveniently skipped by the busy folks here. I am quite intrigued by the kinds of discussion on this list and indeed intrigued by most of the characters that seem to be involved in the Wikimedia movement in India and how it stands out in contrast to the spirit of Wikipedia and its sister projects. Whereas the project is more a culture of giving, most of what we see here seems to be more about merely getting things for oneself and getting ahead of each other which I suppose is inspiration drawn from street traffic. Having observed the movement from the outside, it is my hope that the best values of Wikipedia culture are imbibed rather than the worst of Indian culture. * Wikiculture - Deal with issues not the persons raising them - what matters more than who. Those who actually interact with the *community* (an earlier thread gave the suggestion that people would get an opportunity to interact with the *community* only by attending Wikimania) on Wikipedia will know this aspect. This is a symptom of the fact that hardly anyone out here is really editing substantially. * Wikiculture - Think independently and question everything - Wikipedia achieved a lot and is interesting because it questions(or questioned) paradigms that are (or were) taken for granted. It uses direct interaction, direct democracy, rather than representatives. So voting people into committees / positions that work in private is not the way things are done here, it is by discussing ideas. Independence requires that you question any sense of group identity. * Wikiculture - Forsake cliques, identity traps and recognize
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Few concerns
Shyamal, You reminded me of the good old days of Wikipedia - the movement that wasn't centered around money, but driven by interest and volunteering. I hope that what you've written about Wikiculture shall be read by many here and if that is understood by more people in coming days, the Indian 'community' can get a wee bit healthier. Of late, whenever I switch over to read the conversations on this list, it is not just intrigue but profound disgust that emerges. On 25 September 2013 10:03, Shyamal L. lshya...@gmail.com wrote: Apologies for the rant that follows and can be conveniently skipped by the busy folks here. I am quite intrigued by the kinds of discussion on this list and indeed intrigued by most of the characters that seem to be involved in the Wikimedia movement in India and how it stands out in contrast to the spirit of Wikipedia and its sister projects. Whereas the project is more a culture of giving, most of what we see here seems to be more about merely getting things for oneself and getting ahead of each other which I suppose is inspiration drawn from street traffic. Having observed the movement from the outside, it is my hope that the best values of Wikipedia culture are imbibed rather than the worst of Indian culture. * Wikiculture - Deal with issues not the persons raising them - what matters more than who. Those who actually interact with the *community* (an earlier thread gave the suggestion that people would get an opportunity to interact with the *community* only by attending Wikimania) on Wikipedia will know this aspect. This is a symptom of the fact that hardly anyone out here is really editing substantially. * Wikiculture - Think independently and question everything - Wikipedia achieved a lot and is interesting because it questions(or questioned) paradigms that are (or were) taken for granted. It uses direct interaction, direct democracy, rather than representatives. So voting people into committees / positions that work in private is not the way things are done here, it is by discussing ideas. Independence requires that you question any sense of group identity. * Wikiculture - Forsake cliques, identity traps and recognize in-out-group dynamics. In particular I think much of the poverty of editing from India comes from poor research driven by the idea that an Indian needs to represent India-related Wikipedia entries in a (POV) way that apparently instills pride among fellow-Indians! * Wikiculture - Wiki is not paper, editors do not need an office, the best community support is provided on-wiki. So again, why would having funds for an office, 3 employees visiting that office each day (and adding to Bangalore's traffic) help the Wikimedia movement? If something needs to be organized, let leadership be elected on Wiki and let there be an grant such as IEG on Wiki to support it. I have been quite intrigued by the idea of Special Interest Groups being defined by many here by the language in which they edit - one would expect SIGs to be subject dependent - so you could have astronomers, law experts, literature experts, and so on with members who work in multiple language mediums. There could be language specific technical SIGs that work on IME, Unicode etc but what we see here instead appears more like language chauvinism. Those professing to be subject matter experts (and really ought to members of specific SIGs) out here seem to contribute almost nothing to Wikipedia in their claimed area of expertise - for instance there are quite a number of law experts in the group and despite that, one finds that the law related articles, even on the English Wikipedia quite atrocious. With the amount of money being thrown here one would expect that at least something like the article on the Indian Copyright Act to be a GA if not an FA (on the English WP). [...] The amount being thrown in is certainly huge. And this money was raised! I'm stumped by the silence of many long time Wikipedians in voicing their opinion against whatever has been going on in India in the name of 'Wikimedia movement'. Thanks to you for speaking out. -- Hari Prasad Nadig http://twitter.com/hpnadig ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Few concerns
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Bishakha Datta bishakhada...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Shyamal L. lshya...@gmail.com wrote: * Wikiculture - Deal with issues not the persons raising them - what matters more than who. I want to strongly endorse this in my personal capacity and urge that when questions are raised on this public list, they be addressed. This is what I see on most wikimedia lists, but not on this one. We need to play our part in upholding the culture on which wikipedia and the sister projects are built and continue to thrive. Where and when exactly have you seen questions not been answered? Thanks, ASB ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
[Wikimediaindia-l] Few concerns
hi, this is with reference to this email - http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2013-September/010415.html, sent by Zakaas Zakaas. the text of the email was scrubbed as HTML. The content of the text is here - http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/attachments/20130915/a6cebef4/attachment.html reproduced below: While the new ECs are still deciding the new office bearers, there are some observations which are of serious concern. It is known fact that Karthik(secratory) is employee of Moksha(president) and Pranav is employee/consultant to Moksha/pIn the true spirit of wikipedia, where transparancy is atmost important, and conflict of interests are taken seriously, have thesebr /people given any disclaimer about this information (employee, employer relationship) in advancIt will be nice to know the concern people stand regarding this matter. It is interesting to note that while the author asks for transparency, he is not transparent himself. Let us assume that the alias is taken for the sake of revealing this truth. Unfortunately, just using the alias is insufficient, in my opinion. One must also be able to mask one's partiality to the language one uses for the mask to be complete. In this case, I can easily identify the author as Viswaprabha. He's the only person I know of who calls Moksh Moksha. Pradeep Mohandas How Pradeep uses email? - http://goo.gl/6v1I9___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Few concerns
Did I read and understand that absolutely correctly! If so, this is a huge accusal! Please come to your senses before doing such horrendous accusations! I would never (or am or will be planning) to send any mail messages to ANY public (or private) lists other than from my own proven identities!!! TAKE IT FOR GRANTED! Indeed, your baseless and mean assumption calls for severe actions! -Viswam User:Viswaprabha On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 8:37 AM, Pradeep Mohandas prad2...@yahoo.comwrote: hi, this is with reference to this email - http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2013-September/010415.html, sent by Zakaas Zakaas. the text of the email was scrubbed as HTML. The content of the text is here - http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/attachments/20130915/a6cebef4/attachment.html reproduced below: While the new ECs are still deciding the new office bearers, there are some observations which are of serious concern. It is known fact that Karthik(secratory) is employee of Moksha(president) and Pranav is employee/consultant to Moksha/p In the true spirit of wikipedia, where transparancy is atmost important, and conflict of interests are taken seriously, have thesebr /people given any disclaimer about this information (employee, employer relationship) in advancIt will be nice to know the concern people stand regarding this matter. It is interesting to note that while the author asks for transparency, he is not transparent himself. Let us assume that the alias is taken for the sake of revealing this truth. Unfortunately, just using the alias is insufficient, in my opinion. One must also be able to mask one's partiality to the language one uses for the mask to be complete. In this case, I can easily identify the author as Viswaprabha. He's the only person I know of who calls Moksh Moksha. Pradeep Mohandas How Pradeep uses email? - http://goo.gl/6v1I9 ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Few concerns
Apologies for the rant that follows and can be conveniently skipped by the busy folks here. I am quite intrigued by the kinds of discussion on this list and indeed intrigued by most of the characters that seem to be involved in the Wikimedia movement in India and how it stands out in contrast to the spirit of Wikipedia and its sister projects. Whereas the project is more a culture of giving, most of what we see here seems to be more about merely getting things for oneself and getting ahead of each other which I suppose is inspiration drawn from street traffic. Having observed the movement from the outside, it is my hope that the best values of Wikipedia culture are imbibed rather than the worst of Indian culture. * Wikiculture - Deal with issues not the persons raising them - what matters more than who. Those who actually interact with the *community* (an earlier thread gave the suggestion that people would get an opportunity to interact with the *community* only by attending Wikimania) on Wikipedia will know this aspect. This is a symptom of the fact that hardly anyone out here is really editing substantially. * Wikiculture - Think independently and question everything - Wikipedia achieved a lot and is interesting because it questions(or questioned) paradigms that are (or were) taken for granted. It uses direct interaction, direct democracy, rather than representatives. So voting people into committees / positions that work in private is not the way things are done here, it is by discussing ideas. Independence requires that you question any sense of group identity. * Wikiculture - Forsake cliques, identity traps and recognize in-out-group dynamics. In particular I think much of the poverty of editing from India comes from poor research driven by the idea that an Indian needs to represent India-related Wikipedia entries in a (POV) way that apparently instills pride among fellow-Indians! * Wikiculture - Wiki is not paper, editors do not need an office, the best community support is provided on-wiki. So again, why would having funds for an office, 3 employees visiting that office each day (and adding to Bangalore's traffic) help the Wikimedia movement? If something needs to be organized, let leadership be elected on Wiki and let there be an grant such as IEG on Wiki to support it. I have been quite intrigued by the idea of Special Interest Groups being defined by many here by the language in which they edit - one would expect SIGs to be subject dependent - so you could have astronomers, law experts, literature experts, and so on with members who work in multiple language mediums. There could be language specific technical SIGs that work on IME, Unicode etc but what we see here instead appears more like language chauvinism. Those professing to be subject matter experts (and really ought to members of specific SIGs) out here seem to contribute almost nothing to Wikipedia in their claimed area of expertise - for instance there are quite a number of law experts in the group and despite that, one finds that the law related articles, even on the English Wikipedia quite atrocious. With the amount of money being thrown here one would expect that at least something like the article on the Indian Copyright Act to be a GA if not an FA (on the English WP). I know that many of the people in the Wikimedia movement in India know each other from before, have worked in the same NGOs or are good friends. That is not to say that corporates and organizations across the world are devoid of old-school connections but full disclosure would certainly be appropriate here while not being disqualifying. I agree with the anonymous commentator and would rather like to see issues being addressed just the way Wikipedia works and not by Indian style ad hominem or argument from authority. In a somewhat Groucho-Marxian way I think an ideal club like the Wikimedia India chapter should abhor club-mentality and should probably not want to have me (or anyone) as an exclusive member. It should instead perhaps consider everyone as a member. And for full disclosure - my political leaning is obviously towards the anarchist-left-liberal end of the spectrum unlike most of the Indian Wikipedian movement. best wishes Shyamal en:User:Shyamal ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Few concerns
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Shyamal L. lshya...@gmail.com wrote: * Wikiculture - Deal with issues not the persons raising them - what matters more than who. I want to strongly endorse this in my personal capacity and urge that when questions are raised on this public list, they be addressed. This is what I see on most wikimedia lists, but not on this one. We need to play our part in upholding the culture on which wikipedia and the sister projects are built and continue to thrive. Bishakha ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
[Wikimediaindia-l] Few concerns
While the new ECs are still deciding the new office bearers, there are some observations which are of serious concern. It is known fact that Karthik(secratory) is employee of Moksha(president) and Pranav is employee/consultant to Moksha In the true spirit of wikipedia, where transparancy is atmost important, and conflict of interests are taken seriously, have thesepeople given any disclaimer about this information (employee, employer relationship) in advance?It will be nice to know the concern people stand regarding this matter.Comments from community are most welcomed. ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
