Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wiki loves expensive expeditions (Was: Re: Chapter public communication requirements)

[Manoj Khurana]

Hi all.

Quite encouraging mail.
On Hindi wiki there are hardly 10 'very active' members. Mostly all are
matured members. Student community and young members are missing.

With such low membership it is quite difficult to arrange any meets,
projects etc.

After seeing this mail I'm encouraged to propose if we can run some online
ad campaign for inviting young people to participate in Local language
wikis.

Regards
Manoj.

Ver well said Lane Raspberry,

You're right in saying that as funds are available, people from India
should find projects that are otherwise not possible to undertake and apply
for grants. Community should scrutinise the proposals as it did in this
case but in all good faith.

Thanks,
Dhaval
On 10 Sep 2015 19:05, "Lane Rasberry"  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am happy to see that this project has been funded.
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:PEG/Sujay25/Wikipedia_Treks_Kalindi_Khal#Notes_on_approval
> >
>
> Shyamal, your criticism is all valid, but I feel that it misses an
> important point. That point is that the Wikimedia community owes India 1/6
> of all community funds (India is 1/6 of world population) and very little
> of the money owed actually goes to India. As someone in the United States I
> feel continually concerned about why Wikimedia contributors in India argue
> about portions of the money available without making plans to take all of
> what is owed.
>
> Whatever happens in the future with Wikimedia community grants in India in
> the future, I hope that more people look to apply for more funds. I think
> this one was funded because the money was available for India and this was
> the best available proposal. Some people may feel that this is not the best
> project - those people should write better grants and propose better
> projects.
>
> I would like to see more regional user groups in India be founded. It only
> takes 3 people, and user groups will be treated by the Wikimedia community
> as equal to the Wikimedia India chapter. If anyone feels that the chapter
> does not represent them, then they can start a user group or even a second
> Wikimedia India chapter.
>
> Whatever happens - please more grant requests from India! I think this
> project is good, but also I recognize that few proposals come from India.
>
> Request more, make more plans, make plans over time, and please more
> people start thinking about what you will do with your 1/6 allotment when
> Wikimedia community organizers are mature enough as a collective to manage
> it. In business India has some of the best management infrastructure in the
> world. In the NGO sector... I regret that very often development is
> difficult and argumentative in India. I wish for more collaboration in
> India because money is there to support.
>
> yours,
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Yohann Thomas  wrote:
>
>> Hi Shyamal
>>
>> I have responded to your questions/doubts on the PEG page. But this being
>> the last, lets keep the PEG page discussion different & mailing list
>> discussion different. Don't want to unnecessary spam inboxes for those not
>> interested in our discussion. Those interested can always read our fruitful
>> discussions on the grant page.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Yohann Thomas
>> yohan...@gmail.com
>>
>> PS - FYI Eastern Ghats Highest point is Arma Konda *1680 m/5512 ft* &
>> Garhwal Himalayas Highest point  is Kalindi Khal pass *5968 mts /19578
>> ft  *
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Lane Rasberry
> user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
> 206.801.0814
> l...@bluerasberry.com
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wiki loves expensive expeditions (Was: Re: Chapter public communication requirements)

[Dhaval S. Vyas]

Ver well said Lane Raspberry,

You're right in saying that as funds are available, people from India
should find projects that are otherwise not possible to undertake and apply
for grants. Community should scrutinise the proposals as it did in this
case but in all good faith.

Thanks,
Dhaval
On 10 Sep 2015 19:05, "Lane Rasberry"  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am happy to see that this project has been funded.
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:PEG/Sujay25/Wikipedia_Treks_Kalindi_Khal#Notes_on_approval
> >
>
> Shyamal, your criticism is all valid, but I feel that it misses an
> important point. That point is that the Wikimedia community owes India 1/6
> of all community funds (India is 1/6 of world population) and very little
> of the money owed actually goes to India. As someone in the United States I
> feel continually concerned about why Wikimedia contributors in India argue
> about portions of the money available without making plans to take all of
> what is owed.
>
> Whatever happens in the future with Wikimedia community grants in India in
> the future, I hope that more people look to apply for more funds. I think
> this one was funded because the money was available for India and this was
> the best available proposal. Some people may feel that this is not the best
> project - those people should write better grants and propose better
> projects.
>
> I would like to see more regional user groups in India be founded. It only
> takes 3 people, and user groups will be treated by the Wikimedia community
> as equal to the Wikimedia India chapter. If anyone feels that the chapter
> does not represent them, then they can start a user group or even a second
> Wikimedia India chapter.
>
> Whatever happens - please more grant requests from India! I think this
> project is good, but also I recognize that few proposals come from India.
>
> Request more, make more plans, make plans over time, and please more
> people start thinking about what you will do with your 1/6 allotment when
> Wikimedia community organizers are mature enough as a collective to manage
> it. In business India has some of the best management infrastructure in the
> world. In the NGO sector... I regret that very often development is
> difficult and argumentative in India. I wish for more collaboration in
> India because money is there to support.
>
> yours,
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Yohann Thomas  wrote:
>
>> Hi Shyamal
>>
>> I have responded to your questions/doubts on the PEG page. But this being
>> the last, lets keep the PEG page discussion different & mailing list
>> discussion different. Don't want to unnecessary spam inboxes for those not
>> interested in our discussion. Those interested can always read our fruitful
>> discussions on the grant page.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Yohann Thomas
>> yohan...@gmail.com
>>
>> PS - FYI Eastern Ghats Highest point is Arma Konda *1680 m/5512 ft* &
>> Garhwal Himalayas Highest point  is Kalindi Khal pass *5968 mts /19578
>> ft  *
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
>> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Lane Rasberry
> user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
> 206.801.0814
> l...@bluerasberry.com
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wiki loves expensive expeditions (Was: Re: Chapter public communication requirements)

[Lane Rasberry]

Hello,

I am happy to see that this project has been funded.
<
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:PEG/Sujay25/Wikipedia_Treks_Kalindi_Khal#Notes_on_approval
>

Shyamal, your criticism is all valid, but I feel that it misses an
important point. That point is that the Wikimedia community owes India 1/6
of all community funds (India is 1/6 of world population) and very little
of the money owed actually goes to India. As someone in the United States I
feel continually concerned about why Wikimedia contributors in India argue
about portions of the money available without making plans to take all of
what is owed.

Whatever happens in the future with Wikimedia community grants in India in
the future, I hope that more people look to apply for more funds. I think
this one was funded because the money was available for India and this was
the best available proposal. Some people may feel that this is not the best
project - those people should write better grants and propose better
projects.

I would like to see more regional user groups in India be founded. It only
takes 3 people, and user groups will be treated by the Wikimedia community
as equal to the Wikimedia India chapter. If anyone feels that the chapter
does not represent them, then they can start a user group or even a second
Wikimedia India chapter.

Whatever happens - please more grant requests from India! I think this
project is good, but also I recognize that few proposals come from India.

Request more, make more plans, make plans over time, and please more people
start thinking about what you will do with your 1/6 allotment when
Wikimedia community organizers are mature enough as a collective to manage
it. In business India has some of the best management infrastructure in the
world. In the NGO sector... I regret that very often development is
difficult and argumentative in India. I wish for more collaboration in
India because money is there to support.

yours,




On Mon, Sep 7, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Yohann Thomas  wrote:

> Hi Shyamal
>
> I have responded to your questions/doubts on the PEG page. But this being
> the last, lets keep the PEG page discussion different & mailing list
> discussion different. Don't want to unnecessary spam inboxes for those not
> interested in our discussion. Those interested can always read our fruitful
> discussions on the grant page.
>
> Thanks,
> Yohann Thomas
> yohan...@gmail.com
>
> PS - FYI Eastern Ghats Highest point is Arma Konda *1680 m/5512 ft* &
> Garhwal Himalayas Highest point  is Kalindi Khal pass *5968 mts /19578
> ft  *
>
>
> ___
> Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
>


-- 
Lane Rasberry
user:bluerasberry on Wikipedia
206.801.0814
l...@bluerasberry.com
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wiki loves expensive expeditions (Was: Re: Chapter public communication requirements)

[Shyamal Lakshminarayanan]

Hi Yohann,

Thanks for the comments that you have made as spokesperson of the Wikimedia
India Chapter.
I was away from the Internet - trekking in the Eastern Ghats - and of
course at my own cost. A number of images will go into Commons as I process
them. That might perhaps help the proposers of the project understand that
we are kindred souls.

I have responded in detail to the comments you have made with a little more
context for outsiders - non-Chapter members and non-Indians. I know that we
are all doing a thankless job of volunteering but we can make it better if
we can discuss this properly and without the actual delineation between
Chapter members and non-members stakeholders.

My responses with formatting are at
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:PEG/Sujay25/Wikipedia_Treks_Kalindi_Khal#Responses_-_questions_on_policy_and_process_followed

best wishes
Shyamal

Here is the text of the response I have posted at meta:

In the absence of policy statements, this looks too much like an ad-hoc
discretionary decision of the executive committee of the Wikimedia India
Chapter. Most of us who are early adopters of the Wikimedia Movement have
appreciated the culture of the Wikimedia Movement where policies and
guidelines are evolved through bottom-up consultation, consensus, and
decision making where required by elected representatives. These processes
stand in contrast to many colonial and authoritarian systems that are
accepted and in use in India.
Explicit formulation of Chapter role and philosophy.

The aims of the Foundation are associated with knowledge which really is
infinite and unbounded. The activities of the Foundation and the Chapter do
however have practical limitations and the scope needs to be defined,
re-evaluated and evolved over time. The role of the Chapter is broadly to
support activities within the Indian political and geographical region that
are in line with the aims of the Wikimedia Foundation. The Chapter adds
value to the Foundation by being aware and sensitive to the specific
context of the region and its range of languages. The Wikimedia India
Chapter is registered as a Society under the Indian legal framework. This
means that it has a set of executives who are elected by members. The
Society is the legal model used by a number of "clubs". Clubs are formed
for the benefit of a group of individuals who form it. The executives are
voted according to the benefits accorded to the members. Dissent, criticism
of the system and insubordination by members is normally not acceptable.
The philosophy of the Wikimedia Foundation is something far removed from
this kind of a membership-oriented organization and aims to benefit all
beyond members. What this implies is that the Chapter cannot merely use the
legal framework required under Indian law to guide its functioning but
needs to formulate an extended philosophical guide.

Considering that the elected members keep changing, this
constitution/guide/policy/philosophy document needs to be clear, explicit,
open, transparent and evolved by consensus (and because the benefits are
not supposed to be merely for members, the need for openness to the
involvement of all possible stakeholders cannot be be considered optional).
I have not seen such a document nor have any philosophical principles been
stated in the statements made by the spokesperson(s) chosen by the Chapter.
To be fair, this has been the operation mode even in the past and is not
the fault of the current spokesperson (Yohann) and my comments are not to
be taken personally. The very personal and emotional response from an
elected member writing on behalf of the Chapter and all its members is
somewhat unexpected.
Explicit policy on paid and borderline paid-activities

The conflict and delineation of activities as volunteer and paid
professional activities is something that is a constant one and will always
be a grey area. Whether the Chapters should also have the same delineations
as the Foundation are unclear. By and large the idea of volunteer
contribution in the Wiki[p|m]edia Movement (or indeed many forms of
crowdsourcing / citizen science) had worked because of the lowered cost
involved in bringing together the work of people in distributed geographies
and times with varying skills. The idea of funding travel to aid
photography or to produce travelogues for Wikivoyage or content for
Wikipedia is therefore an area of conflict. The specific idea that a
self-selected group of people from Kolkata should travel about 1300 km west
to the Garhwal region to document the Himalayas because of a supposed gap
in knowledge a whole slew of questions. To support or to not support them
without a clear policy statement would be unjust simply because a very
large number of us do incur expenditure on various things that are part of
our interest. We however would like to see more people to benefit from our
interest and expertise.

   - Should we cover the expenses involved in following our 

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wiki loves expensive expeditions (Was: Re: Chapter public communication requirements)

[Yohann Thomas]

Hi Shyamal

I have responded to your questions/doubts on the PEG page. But this being
the last, lets keep the PEG page discussion different & mailing list
discussion different. Don't want to unnecessary spam inboxes for those not
interested in our discussion. Those interested can always read our fruitful
discussions on the grant page.

Thanks,
Yohann Thomas
yohan...@gmail.com

PS - FYI Eastern Ghats Highest point is Arma Konda *1680 m/5512 ft* &
Garhwal Himalayas Highest point  is Kalindi Khal pass *5968 mts /19578 ft  *
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[Wikimediaindia-l] Wiki loves expensive expeditions (Was: Re: Chapter public communication requirements)

[Shyamal Lakshminarayanan]

Thanks Yohann for explaining the accepted mode of functioning of WMIN.

I have several objections to the specific proposal and more importantly I
think WMIN ought to have more general guiding principles and perhaps evolve
explicit guidelines so that proposals are treated fairly, in ways that are
more inclusive, long-term and not one-off, sustainable and offer greater
impact at lower cost.

* There are numerous contributor to Wikimedia Commons who have hitherto
travelled at their own cost and contributed images and media. Many of them
are extremely knowledgeable, identifying the subjects and choosing images
that have encyclopedic value. I suppose that in future, every WMIN member
is going to ask for travel expenses to be covered.

* There are a number of specialist organizations that exist to support
specialized interests. In other words, Special Interest Groups exist
independently of the Wikimedia movement. Partnership with these groups
ought to be the way to go, because it adds the greatest value and is a
viable long-term option. There are a very large number of mountaineering,
trekking and travel groups operating in the area of the proposal - many of
them with qualified subject matter experts involved (with masters or Ph.D.
level expertise in geology, paleontology, glaciology, botany etc.). Some
organizations like the Youth Hostels or the Himalayan Club could easily be
introduced to the idea of contributing images related to travel under a
free-license. [One of the proposers kindly sent me a mail in response to my
earlier mail explaining that the team members had interest and expertise in
photography, ornithology (actually said someone was an ornithologist!),
lepidoptera, botany and geology - I have not seen the publication record of
the said members but based on their wiki activity I am unable to see an
acceptable level of expertise] In terms of these subjects, there is a lot
more to see at mid-altitudes and there is no ethnology involved once you go
above the tree-line.

* There is a vast literature on the Himalayas (See for instance
http://pahar.in/ ) and none of the proposers appear to have substantially
contributed to articles related to the project. There are a few image
additions and minor edits. Adding images is probably the easiest activity.
It is possible to add a large number and it can appear impressive but using
these images in articles is a lot tougher. Even tougher is to make articles
of sufficient depth and value. If the list of proposed articles that will
be augmented by this project is offered, it will be easy to demonstrate
that relevant images can be sourced without the need for this project and
that images are *not* the stumbling block for most part.

* The proposal costing is also somewhat disturbing. I see the proposed
costs as something disturbingly akin to the ploy of a tele-sales
commercial, unintended though it probably is. The full cost of the
expedition is a large amount which we show here and the amount we ask is
only a fraction of it - ie it appears as if you are saving a great deal of
money and therefore that this is a very valuable mission to fund. Someone
with some interest in sailing could show how expensive a yacht is and what
special training it takes to be on it and write up a proposal asking for a
fraction of a supposed budget to be defrayed. Someone interested in
skydiving or gliding could put a cost of the sport and ask for a fraction
of it to get some aerial photographs. [And of course we can always point
out that there is a shortage of aerial images and mariners views from
around India] [The Telesales method for those who are not aware of it is to
show how much you save by buying a product and these figures are often
dramatically boosted and augmented by delivery and voice effects]

* The Wiki Loves Food is an excellent case to study for comparison - it
might be considered successful if the number of images is counted but if we
look at image usage in articles and the quality of articles containing them
- we will see that the impact is low. Of the 9129 images in the category
for 2015 - 247 have been used in articles - about 2% (using
https://tools.wmflabs.org/glamtools/glamorous.php )  Wiki Loves Food
however is a far more inclusive project - and the expenses are low and only
for prize money and it is quite different in the way of functioning (as
also things like Wiki Loves Earth, Wiki Takes * )  Compare this level of
image usage with some Indian users: User:AshLin 222 used out of 362 images
- 61% used in articles; User:Vinayraj: 2594 used out of 16086 16% ;
User:Jkadavoor 638 used out of 1342 47%; User:Shyamal 6710 used out of
11984 56% used in articles.

* Here are some alternate ideas I can think of for the 2 Lakh INR being
proposed - if you took a 7000 rupee compact camera (would be even cheaper
if we tried second-hand) and lent 25 of them to a well-established
organization we could do a variety of interesting experiments - views of
the mountains through the