Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Content WG: Templating, Page Components editing
On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Gabriel Wicke gwi...@wikimedia.org wrote:
TL;DR: Join us to discuss Templates, Page Components editing on Thu, 13
August, 12:45 – 14:00 PDT [0].
I can't, so I'll just comment here.
including a talk by C.Scott at Wikimania [4]
Looking at the slide deck, it's not terribly clear to me what's going on
through much of it. If you're only referring to the alternatives to
templates section (slides 39-50) it's good, but much of the rest isn't so
much.
The first part repeatedly harps on T14974 being stupid. Which I don't think
anyone disagrees with, but hysterical raisins mean it's not simple to just
revert anymore. We need to at least identify what now is depending on that
behavior (xkcd 1172 https://xkcd.com/1172/).
Then complains about the fact thatthere isn't any general-purpose escape
template argument mechanism. True, although overdone in the slide deck.
And then gets into weird attempted abuse of some {{echo}} template in the
context of tables. WAT?
Then it goes back to the escaping issue by proposing a heredoc syntax for
template arguments. Although that as a general concept has its advantages,
it also has disadvantages. Enwiki even has some templates like this, see
{{archive top}}/{{archive bottom}} for just one example.
And then it non-sequiturs into a screenshot of JavaScript code. WAT? Maybe
it's trying to propose a version of Scribunto-with-JS over
Scribunto-with-Lua, ignoring the reasons JS was rejected in favor of Lua
during Scribunto's planning and development.
Then it proposes looping and StringFunctions-like parserfunctions that were
rejected years ago to avoid wikitext becoming even more confusing. WAT?
And JSON blobs embedded in page wikitext are presented as a good idea. WAT?
Also, slides 60-62 seem wrong. The first was probably trying to get at the
fact that {{#tag:ref|barrefbat/ref}} puts the bat reference before
bar instead of after, but it misses and the next few go off in some
completely other direction.
- Can we find satisfactory general abstractions for page components
(well-formed content blocks)?
Page components with structure defined by editors and layout controlled
by the skin would let Mobile get rid of a some of the stupid stuff it does
now to try to work around the existing implementations.
But what do you mean by general?
- A page component for infoboxes, and one for navboxes, and so on? Sure.
- A generic page component thing that can be used for infoboxes,
navboxes, and so on? Probably not well, although I'd be happy to be proven
wrong. You'd probably wind up with effectively templates + per-template
styling + someone actually writing good @media blocks for mobile vs desktop.
- What are the requirements for editing, RL module / metadata
aggregation, dependency tracking?
I don't think anyone will forget it, but keeping the links tables (dependency
tracking) up to date is important. Flow did forget, for a historical
example, and the current implementation still leaves a bit to be desired.
Flow's watchlist and history mechanisms (e.g.
https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Web_APIs_hubaction=history
and how it shows on my watchlist) are rather lacking, too.
When discussing editing: A good WYSIWYG experience is essential, but a
fully-featured markup editor (that ideally doesn't require directly writing
JSON blobs or complex RDF structures) would also be very useful for many
editors.
- Should we evolve wikitext templates into well-formed page components?
Probably not. While templates are used to implement well-formed page
components as it seems to be defined here, they're also used for many
other things.
--
Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
Senior Software Engineer
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Content WG: Templating, Page Components editing
On 08/12/2015 09:33 AM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) wrote: On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 7:12 PM, Gabriel Wicke gwi...@wikimedia.org mailto:gwi...@wikimedia.org wrote: TL;DR: Join us to discuss Templates, Page Components editing on Thu, 13 August, 12:45 – 14:00 PDT [0]. I can't, so I'll just comment here. including a talk by C.Scott at Wikimania [4] Looking at the slide deck, it's not terribly clear to me what's going on through much of it. If you're only referring to the alternatives to templates section (slides 39-50) it's good, but much of the rest isn't so much. If you are able to look past the WATs (a lot of language implementations have those .. and in a few years, maybe someone will make a Parsoid WAT talk .. all par for the course), I think it was meant to present some of the known problems with wikitext (which you seemed to agree with) and use that as a jumping off point to talk about solutions to that mostly as a survey of all the ideas that have been floating around, not so much as: this is how we should do things. So, yes, some will prove to be unviable, etc. But, it is meant as a conversation starter where we have all the pieces in one place rather than going hunting around 10 different wiki pages, phab tasks, email threads, whatever. * What are the requirements for editing, RL module / metadata aggregation, dependency tracking? I don't think anyone will forget it, but keeping the links tables (dependency tracking) up to date is important. Flow did forget, for a historical example, and the current implementation still leaves a bit to be desired. Flow's watchlist and history mechanisms (e.g. https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Web_APIs_hubaction=history and how it shows on my watchlist) are rather lacking, too. When discussing editing: A good WYSIWYG experience is essential, but a fully-featured markup editor (that ideally doesn't require directly writing JSON blobs or complex RDF structures) would also be very useful for many editors. I agree that the requirement for a good markup editor is not going away. So, yes, that is part of the discussion, but this is mostly to highlight that markup editing is not the only editing mode that needs support and we need to think about what needs fixing so WYSIWYG experience is not hobbled. * Should we evolve wikitext templates into well-formed page components? Probably not. While templates are used to implement well-formed page components as it seems to be defined here, they're also used for many other things. I think the answer is probably more complex than that. A lot of template are already, today, behave like well-formed page components. However, the parsers don't know that. They have to treat all templates with the same conservative brush. Even if we start coming up with ways of identifying such templates and enforcing their well-formedness, we will have made a fair amount of progress. There are various ways to go about that, and those details are something worth talking about. As for the others, I think the page components for infoboxes, navboxes, wikidata-widgets, etc. will have taken a big bite out of other kinds of templates. And, for the rest, we can talk about leaving current default behavior as is and the implications, or talk about other solutions to deal with those. So, maybe a rephrasing of that question would be: What mechanisms can we evolve for using wikitext templates as well-formed page components? which can be a good stepping stone forward without having to solve everything at once. Subbu. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Content WG: Templating, Page Components editing
On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Gabriel Wicke gwi...@wikimedia.org wrote: TL;DR: Join us to discuss Templates, Page Components editing on Thu, 13 August, 12:45 – 14:00 PDT [0]. Please join us at: Thu, 13 August, 12:45 – 14:00 PDT [0] by joining the BlueJeans conference call [1], on IRC, in #wikimedia-meeting, or in Room 37 in the WMF office. [1]: https://bluejeans.com/2061103652, via phone +14087407256, meeting id To access the conference without installing the BlueJeans browser plugin, join using the open WebRTC protocol [2] via the URL https://bluejeans.com/2061103652/webrtc. [2]: http://www.webrtc.org/ Bryan -- Bryan Davis Wikimedia Foundationbd...@wikimedia.org [[m:User:BDavis_(WMF)]] Sr Software EngineerBoise, ID USA irc: bd808v:415.839.6885 x6855 ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Code of conduct
On 08/12/2015 05:13 AM, Brian Wolff wrote: While you're right we don't have a binding policy as of yet, I don't think this should be conflated with us having no rules. We do have some social conventions, and sometimes these work, but they don't always. There have been instances (on both Wikimedia projects and other projects) where people have explicitly used the lack of a binding policy to justify their behavior. The experience of other projects suggests that making the policy binding and specific helps. As long as I can remember, there has been an informal rule, of Comment on the code [or proposal], not the contributor, particularly on the wikitech-l mailing list. Which certainly falls short of many of the concerns that this proposal intends to address (Although that line is included in the proposal), however I just want it to be stated that we are not starting from a state of total anarchy. I agree. *Scope is too vague. This is making some people nervous, especially commons, who really should not feel affected by this policy at all This has been addressed. Commons, Wikipedia, etc. are now clearly excluded. *Unclear what is broken. Most answers seem to boil down to some sort of due diligence concern in case something is happening, or everyone is doing it, which is rather unsatisfactory to the people asking the question. A concise rationale for what we want to accomplish with this, backed up with citations to other people who've dealt with similar issues, would perhaps alleviate some concerns. I've added such a citation. I would summarize as three reasons: * We have had concrete violations in the past which this would have provided a tool to address. * It provides clear guidance (the preference is that people behave respectfully to begin with). * It sends a message to potential participants: We welcome you, and backs that with more than empty words. *Unclear how the policy is going to be enforced (For serious violations), which engenders questions of if it will be enforced fairly. The lack of specification in the enforcement section probably means it will be enforced by the WMF, probably behind closed doors. Will WMF be biased involving disputes where a staff member is a party. Enforcement is still to-be-determined. Matt Flaschen ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Code of conduct
On 12 August 2015 at 23:00, Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org wrote: Enforcement is still to-be-determined. This does need to be sorted out ahead of time. Here's today's horrible example: http://kovalc.in/2015/08/12/harassers.html - d. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] RFC: Replace Tidy with HTML 5 parse/reserialize
Tim Starling wrote: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89331 Running the output of the MediaWiki parser through HTML Tidy always seemed like a nasty hack. The effects on wikitext syntax are arbitrary and change from version to version. When we upgrade our Linux distribution, we sometimes see changes in the HTML generated by given wikitext, which is not ideal. [...] We can get nearly the same effect in MediaWiki by replacing the Tidy transformation stage with an HTML 5 parse followed by serialization of the DOM back to HTML. This would stabilize wikitext syntax and resolve several important syntax differences compared to Parsoid. Related tasks: * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T4542 * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T56617 It's not clear to me which behaviors from Tidy we want to keep. Looking at the various bugs that Tidy has caused, it's apparent that there a number of behaviors we want to disable/avoid. My understanding is that Tidy is not responsible for output sanitization and it's not responsible for preprocessing or parsing. MediaWiki handles all of that elsewhere. If Tidy is only needed for mismatched HTML elements, we could possibly catch and disallow or gracefully handle that specific use-case in MediaWiki. What other beneficial behavior of Tidy would we need to replicate? Or could we replace Tidy with nothing? Relying on the principle of garbage in, garbage out seems reasonable in some ways. And modern browsers are fairly adept at handling moderately bad HTML. MZMcBride ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] RFC: Replace Tidy with HTML 5 parse/reserialize
On 8/12/15, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Tim Starling wrote: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T89331 Running the output of the MediaWiki parser through HTML Tidy always seemed like a nasty hack. The effects on wikitext syntax are arbitrary and change from version to version. When we upgrade our Linux distribution, we sometimes see changes in the HTML generated by given wikitext, which is not ideal. [...] We can get nearly the same effect in MediaWiki by replacing the Tidy transformation stage with an HTML 5 parse followed by serialization of the DOM back to HTML. This would stabilize wikitext syntax and resolve several important syntax differences compared to Parsoid. Related tasks: * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T4542 * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T56617 It's not clear to me which behaviors from Tidy we want to keep. Looking at the various bugs that Tidy has caused, it's apparent that there a number of behaviors we want to disable/avoid. My understanding is that Tidy is not responsible for output sanitization and it's not responsible for preprocessing or parsing. MediaWiki handles all of that elsewhere. If Tidy is only needed for mismatched HTML elements, we could possibly catch and disallow or gracefully handle that specific use-case in MediaWiki. What other beneficial behavior of Tidy would we need to replicate? Or could we replace Tidy with nothing? Relying on the principle of garbage in, garbage out seems reasonable in some ways. And modern browsers are fairly adept at handling moderately bad HTML. MZMcBride The main thing tidy does (imo), is ensure that mismatched html fails are localized. When somebody makes a mistake, it can cause the entire skin to go whacko. We ideally want to have markup mistakes only affect the user generated content (and preferably, only around the area where the mistake is). --bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] [Engineering] Code of conduct
On 8/10/15, Matthew Flaschen mflasc...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 08/10/2015 07:10 PM, MZMcBride wrote: I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. We already have: As you know, none of those are binding policies that apply to all Wikimedia technical spaces. * https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy This only applies to in-person events. * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick [*] This is more or less reasonable, but it's not even a guideline. It's just an essay, * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith This does not apply to the vast majority of Wikimedia technical spaces, and does not have the same (or particularly similar) content. * https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct_policy This is only binding on staff and board members, not the whole community. It's also not specific enough about both what is problematic behavior and how we solve it. Matt Flaschen ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l While you're right we don't have a binding policy as of yet, I don't think this should be conflated with us having no rules. As long as I can remember, there has been an informal rule, of Comment on the code [or proposal], not the contributor, particularly on the wikitech-l mailing list. Which certainly falls short of many of the concerns that this proposal intends to address (Although that line is included in the proposal), however I just want it to be stated that we are not starting from a state of total anarchy. After reflecting on the proposed policy a little bit, and various comments I've read, here's how I feel: Broadly speaking: *Scope is too vague. This is making some people nervous, especially commons, who really should not feel affected by this policy at all *Unclear what is broken. Most answers seem to boil down to some sort of due diligence concern in case something is happening, or everyone is doing it, which is rather unsatisfactory to the people asking the question. A concise rationale for what we want to accomplish with this, backed up with citations to other people who've dealt with similar issues, would perhaps alleviate some concerns. **People who are hindered by the status quo, don't feel comfortable coming forward with their experience. Which is 100% understandable, but nonetheless makes it difficult to judge the appropriateness of the policy. *Unclear how the policy is going to be enforced (For serious violations), which engenders questions of if it will be enforced fairly. The lack of specification in the enforcement section probably means it will be enforced by the WMF, probably behind closed doors. Will WMF be biased involving disputes where a staff member is a party. -- bawolff ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Lightning Talks August 25
Hi, nice idea. I'm just wondering if this concept could be expanded to be more explicitly inclusive of other kinds of activities like LE, education, GLAM, Legal, Comms, Research, affiliates, etc. I think that this could increase participation. Pine On Aug 12, 2015 10:53 AM, Rachel Farrand rfarr...@wikimedia.org wrote: We (Kevin Leduc, Megan Nestler and I) will be doing a second run of lightning talks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_talk on August 25. The first round had about 40 people viewing living bother remotely and in SF as well as another 45 views after the talks. ~ More logistic details/signups found in the email below ~ These lightning talks are meant for anyone working on wikimedia tech and are not limited to WMF engineers. If you would like to do a lightning talk on any project you are working on please feel free to sign up. Make sure to include contact information (or email it to me) so that we (the lightning talk organizers) can coordinate with you. These lightning talks should be relevant to something related to our movement and will mostly be focused on tech related projects however it is not mandatory that they are related to tech. These talks will continue every month until there is no longer interest. A youtube stream will be sent out to this list just before the talks start so you can follow along, you can ask questions on IRC, and the talks will also be recorded so that you can watch them whenever you like. We will adapt this process as we go to make it as interesting and useful to everyone as we can. -- Forwarded message -- From: Kevin Leduc ke...@wikimedia.org Date: Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:26 PM Subject: To: wmf...@lists.wikimedia.org, Engineering list engineer...@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Rachel Farrand rfarr...@wikimedia.org, Megan Neisler mneis...@wikimedia.org Hello! The next round of Lightning Talks are in two weeks. This effort will not work without your participation... Lightning Talks are an opportunity for teams @ WMF in the Community to showcase a Quarterly Goal acheived, significant milestone, release, or anything of significance to the rest of the foundation and the movement as a whole. These talks will be open to our communities. Each presentation will be 10 minutes or less, the formal part should be not be longer than 5 minutes and the remainder can be used for questions. Too many questions to answer in the allotted time? No worries, your lightning talk will be a great candidate for a future Tech Talk. Second Round of Lightning Talks: When: Tuesday August 25, 1800 UTC http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Lightning+Talks+-+Augustiso=20150825T18p1=1440ah=1 , 11am PDT Where: 5th Floor Remotees: On-Air google hangout will be provided just before the meeting IRC: #wikimedia-tech Sign up for a 10 minute slot here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Lightning_Talks With interest, this meeting will become a monthly event. Thanks! Kevin Leduc, Rachel Farrand, Megan Neisler ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
[Wikitech-l] Fwd: Lightning Talks August 25
We (Kevin Leduc, Megan Nestler and I) will be doing a second run of lightning talks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_talk on August 25. The first round had about 40 people viewing living bother remotely and in SF as well as another 45 views after the talks. ~ More logistic details/signups found in the email below ~ These lightning talks are meant for anyone working on wikimedia tech and are not limited to WMF engineers. If you would like to do a lightning talk on any project you are working on please feel free to sign up. Make sure to include contact information (or email it to me) so that we (the lightning talk organizers) can coordinate with you. These lightning talks should be relevant to something related to our movement and will mostly be focused on tech related projects however it is not mandatory that they are related to tech. These talks will continue every month until there is no longer interest. A youtube stream will be sent out to this list just before the talks start so you can follow along, you can ask questions on IRC, and the talks will also be recorded so that you can watch them whenever you like. We will adapt this process as we go to make it as interesting and useful to everyone as we can. -- Forwarded message -- From: Kevin Leduc ke...@wikimedia.org Date: Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:26 PM Subject: To: wmf...@lists.wikimedia.org, Engineering list engineer...@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Rachel Farrand rfarr...@wikimedia.org, Megan Neisler mneis...@wikimedia.org Hello! The next round of Lightning Talks are in two weeks. This effort will not work without your participation... Lightning Talks are an opportunity for teams @ WMF in the Community to showcase a Quarterly Goal acheived, significant milestone, release, or anything of significance to the rest of the foundation and the movement as a whole. These talks will be open to our communities. Each presentation will be 10 minutes or less, the formal part should be not be longer than 5 minutes and the remainder can be used for questions. Too many questions to answer in the allotted time? No worries, your lightning talk will be a great candidate for a future Tech Talk. Second Round of Lightning Talks: When: Tuesday August 25, 1800 UTC http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Lightning+Talks+-+Augustiso=20150825T18p1=1440ah=1, 11am PDT Where: 5th Floor Remotees: On-Air google hangout will be provided just before the meeting IRC: #wikimedia-tech Sign up for a 10 minute slot here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Lightning_Talks With interest, this meeting will become a monthly event. Thanks! Kevin Leduc, Rachel Farrand, Megan Neisler ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] Fwd: Lightning Talks August 25
Hi Pine! I love the idea, so thanks for bringing it up. :) As I said in the email - it is not mandatory that the talks are tech related, however the point of these specific lightning talks are to be mostly tech related. Kevin, Megan and I are all very involved in Wikimedia Tech and are doing this specifically with the goal of spreading information about ongoing tech projects. We will probably give priority to tech focused talks for this series, but any extra space can go to whatever else wants to participate. If there is someone else (you!?) or another group who wants to run lighting with the purpose of a broader range of topics I will be happy and willing to share our lessons learned from these lightning talks. Keep in mind that this is only our second round of talks so we still have lots of room to learn, improve, document and change. A goal of mine is to start documenting the organization process and lessons from running these talks. Anything that gets written up will go here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Calendar/How_to_schedule_an_event#Lightning_Talks There is already a small amount of info, but not much. Check back for updates! :) Hope this helps! On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Pine W wiki.p...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, nice idea. I'm just wondering if this concept could be expanded to be more explicitly inclusive of other kinds of activities like LE, education, GLAM, Legal, Comms, Research, affiliates, etc. I think that this could increase participation. Pine On Aug 12, 2015 10:53 AM, Rachel Farrand rfarr...@wikimedia.org wrote: We (Kevin Leduc, Megan Nestler and I) will be doing a second run of lightning talks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_talk on August 25. The first round had about 40 people viewing living bother remotely and in SF as well as another 45 views after the talks. ~ More logistic details/signups found in the email below ~ These lightning talks are meant for anyone working on wikimedia tech and are not limited to WMF engineers. If you would like to do a lightning talk on any project you are working on please feel free to sign up. Make sure to include contact information (or email it to me) so that we (the lightning talk organizers) can coordinate with you. These lightning talks should be relevant to something related to our movement and will mostly be focused on tech related projects however it is not mandatory that they are related to tech. These talks will continue every month until there is no longer interest. A youtube stream will be sent out to this list just before the talks start so you can follow along, you can ask questions on IRC, and the talks will also be recorded so that you can watch them whenever you like. We will adapt this process as we go to make it as interesting and useful to everyone as we can. -- Forwarded message -- From: Kevin Leduc ke...@wikimedia.org Date: Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 6:26 PM Subject: To: wmf...@lists.wikimedia.org, Engineering list engineer...@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Rachel Farrand rfarr...@wikimedia.org, Megan Neisler mneis...@wikimedia.org Hello! The next round of Lightning Talks are in two weeks. This effort will not work without your participation... Lightning Talks are an opportunity for teams @ WMF in the Community to showcase a Quarterly Goal acheived, significant milestone, release, or anything of significance to the rest of the foundation and the movement as a whole. These talks will be open to our communities. Each presentation will be 10 minutes or less, the formal part should be not be longer than 5 minutes and the remainder can be used for questions. Too many questions to answer in the allotted time? No worries, your lightning talk will be a great candidate for a future Tech Talk. Second Round of Lightning Talks: When: Tuesday August 25, 1800 UTC http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Lightning+Talks+-+Augustiso=20150825T18p1=1440ah=1 , 11am PDT Where: 5th Floor Remotees: On-Air google hangout will be provided just before the meeting IRC: #wikimedia-tech Sign up for a 10 minute slot here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Lightning_Talks With interest, this meeting will become a monthly event. Thanks! Kevin Leduc, Rachel Farrand, Megan Neisler ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
