Re: [Wikitech-l] Log of nulledits

[Gergo Tisza]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Dan Garry  wrote:

> By definition, a null edit does not perform any change at all, and is
> therefore not recorded publicly since there's technically nothing to
> record. I suspect the only way you could find this kind of information is
> in the server logs, and access to those is very tightly restricted for
> privacy reasons.
>

Trusted volunteers can sign an NDA and get access to application logs (an
option that IMO we should promote more). Writing to the application logs
(ie. logstash) when a null edit happens would be a trivial and harmless
change. Writing to the MediaWiki action log would have a higher maintenance
and performance cost.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Log of nulledits

[יגאל חיטרון]

Actually, from my experience, nulledit have a good chance to edit
something, and then it's stored as regular revision.
Igal


2017-07-25 16:58 GMT+03:00 Bartosz Dziewoński :

> I've looked over the code briefly and it looks like null edits are not
> logged in any way, not even in private server logs.
>
> However, for the purposes of preventing abuse, null edits check the
> 'linkpurge' rate limit (which is set to 30 actions per minute by default),
> and exceeding rate limits is logged in server logs.
>
> --
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>
>
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Log of nulledits

[Bartosz Dziewoński]

I've looked over the code briefly and it looks like null edits are not 
logged in any way, not even in private server logs.


However, for the purposes of preventing abuse, null edits check the 
'linkpurge' rate limit (which is set to 30 actions per minute by 
default), and exceeding rate limits is logged in server logs.


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Bartosz Dziewoński

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Re: [Wikitech-l] Log of nulledits

[Bináris]

I spoke about a possible change rather than the current behaviour.
But I understand.

2017-07-25 15:07 GMT+02:00 John :

> Bináris the root issue is that mediawiki doesnt see Null edits as an edit,
> it sees them more as a purge with forcelinkupdate=True. The logs that
> contain that information are not in mediawiki, but rather the webserver
> logs. Exposing those logs is a privacy issue. Second if there are
> performance issues the Ops staff have access to those logs and will use
> them to troubleshoot. No one on wiki can do anything about Null Bots, nor
> should it be something they worry about.
>
> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Bináris  wrote:
>
> > 2017-07-25 14:35 GMT+02:00 Dan Garry :
> >
> > > By definition, a null edit does not perform any change at all, and is
> > > therefore not recorded publicly since there's technically nothing to
> > > record. I suspect the only way you could find this kind of information
> is
> > > in the server logs, and access to those is very tightly restricted for
> > > privacy reasons.
> > >
> >
> > I understand, but I think it would be worth to discuss this *therefore.*
> > Nulledits are not subjects of privacy protection, they are now in
> protected
> > logs only accidentally or for historical reasons. If there is an action
> > noticed by the server (definitely there is, because it has an effect on
> the
> > page, that's why people often do it), it may be logged in the way real
> > edits are.
> >
> > This would be also be useful for researchers. One may be interested in
> the
> > pattern of null edits, the quantity of them (e.g. is it useful to null
> edit
> > 20.000 pages because of the change of a template, or is it actual to find
> > some better way of making the changes visible?).
> > If there is no reason to exclude these from logs (I don't see any), we
> > should make them visible. Perhaps not by default, but with a switch.
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-- 
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Log of nulledits

[John]

Bináris the root issue is that mediawiki doesnt see Null edits as an edit,
it sees them more as a purge with forcelinkupdate=True. The logs that
contain that information are not in mediawiki, but rather the webserver
logs. Exposing those logs is a privacy issue. Second if there are
performance issues the Ops staff have access to those logs and will use
them to troubleshoot. No one on wiki can do anything about Null Bots, nor
should it be something they worry about.

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Bináris  wrote:

> 2017-07-25 14:35 GMT+02:00 Dan Garry :
>
> > By definition, a null edit does not perform any change at all, and is
> > therefore not recorded publicly since there's technically nothing to
> > record. I suspect the only way you could find this kind of information is
> > in the server logs, and access to those is very tightly restricted for
> > privacy reasons.
> >
>
> I understand, but I think it would be worth to discuss this *therefore.*
> Nulledits are not subjects of privacy protection, they are now in protected
> logs only accidentally or for historical reasons. If there is an action
> noticed by the server (definitely there is, because it has an effect on the
> page, that's why people often do it), it may be logged in the way real
> edits are.
>
> This would be also be useful for researchers. One may be interested in the
> pattern of null edits, the quantity of them (e.g. is it useful to null edit
> 20.000 pages because of the change of a template, or is it actual to find
> some better way of making the changes visible?).
> If there is no reason to exclude these from logs (I don't see any), we
> should make them visible. Perhaps not by default, but with a switch.
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Log of nulledits

[Bináris]

2017-07-25 14:35 GMT+02:00 Dan Garry :

> By definition, a null edit does not perform any change at all, and is
> therefore not recorded publicly since there's technically nothing to
> record. I suspect the only way you could find this kind of information is
> in the server logs, and access to those is very tightly restricted for
> privacy reasons.
>

I understand, but I think it would be worth to discuss this *therefore.*
Nulledits are not subjects of privacy protection, they are now in protected
logs only accidentally or for historical reasons. If there is an action
noticed by the server (definitely there is, because it has an effect on the
page, that's why people often do it), it may be logged in the way real
edits are.

This would be also be useful for researchers. One may be interested in the
pattern of null edits, the quantity of them (e.g. is it useful to null edit
20.000 pages because of the change of a template, or is it actual to find
some better way of making the changes visible?).
If there is no reason to exclude these from logs (I don't see any), we
should make them visible. Perhaps not by default, but with a switch.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Log of nulledits

[Dan Garry]

By definition, a null edit does not perform any change at all, and is
therefore not recorded publicly since there's technically nothing to
record. I suspect the only way you could find this kind of information is
in the server logs, and access to those is very tightly restricted for
privacy reasons.

Dan

On 25 July 2017 at 12:55, Bináris  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> given a bot that only makes nulledits, for example with touch.py (ie.
> saving pages without modifying), these edits won't appear either in recent
> changes or the page history.
>
> How can I follow these edits? (I am admin and checkuser, but it may be
> interesting without higher user rights.)
> Even with good faith these nulledits load the server, but they can be used
> for an overload attack, too.
>
> --
> Bináris
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-- 
Dan Garry
Lead Product Manager, Discovery
Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Log of nulledits

[יגאל חיטרון]

So, I do not know how to help you.
Igal


2017-07-25 15:09 GMT+03:00 Bináris :

> 2017-07-25 14:05 GMT+02:00 יגאל חיטרון :
>
> > Code a logger for the bot.
> >
> For all possible bots that will be written in the future?
>
> In this situation I am not the bot owner, but a Wikipedia user.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Log of nulledits

[Bináris]

2017-07-25 14:05 GMT+02:00 יגאל חיטרון :

> Code a logger for the bot.
>
For all possible bots that will be written in the future?

In this situation I am not the bot owner, but a Wikipedia user.
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Re: [Wikitech-l] Log of nulledits

[יגאל חיטרון]

Code a logger for the bot.
Igal (User:IKhitron)


2017-07-25 14:55 GMT+03:00 Bináris :

> Hi,
>
> given a bot that only makes nulledits, for example with touch.py (ie.
> saving pages without modifying), these edits won't appear either in recent
> changes or the page history.
>
> How can I follow these edits? (I am admin and checkuser, but it may be
> interesting without higher user rights.)
> Even with good faith these nulledits load the server, but they can be used
> for an overload attack, too.
>
> --
> Bináris
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[Wikitech-l] Log of nulledits

[Bináris]

Hi,

given a bot that only makes nulledits, for example with touch.py (ie.
saving pages without modifying), these edits won't appear either in recent
changes or the page history.

How can I follow these edits? (I am admin and checkuser, but it may be
interesting without higher user rights.)
Even with good faith these nulledits load the server, but they can be used
for an overload attack, too.

-- 
Bináris
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