Re: [Wikitech-l] VE and nowiki
Risker wrote: On 23 July 2013 15:32, Robert Rohde raro...@gmail.com wrote: * Corrupted page content that appears to be caused by the unfamiliar UI (e.g. nowiki[[Foo]]/nowiki) Why do you think those nowiki tags were added by the editors? I assume that since it's VE's job to be wysiwyg, and to insulate the user from the low-level markup details, any time anyone forgets they're in VE and attempts to create a link by reflexively typing [[pagename]] VE will (correctly, from its point of view) translate that to nowiki[[pagename]]/nowiki in the page source. This is a likely enough mistake, and the number of times you really want explicit double square brackets is small enough, that it's worth thinking about (if it hasn't been already) having VE detect and DTRT when a user types that. ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] VE and nowiki
Whoops, didn't realize this thread had been forked off while I was out to lunch, and so I responded to the other thread. Sorry about that :( On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Steve Summit s...@eskimo.com wrote: This is a likely enough mistake, and the number of times you really want explicit double square brackets is small enough, that it's worth thinking about (if it hasn't been already) having VE detect and DTRT when a user types that. VE does detect this and warn the user, but there's a bug that makes the warning bubble appear out of view if you're not scrolled all the way up to the top. One of our team members is working on fixing that right now. Roan ___ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
Re: [Wikitech-l] VE and nowiki
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Steve Summit s...@eskimo.com wrote:
VE will (correctly, from its point of view) translate that to
nowiki[[pagename]]/nowiki in the page source.
This is a likely enough mistake, and the number of times you
really want explicit double square brackets is small enough, that
it's worth thinking about (if it hasn't been already) having VE
detect and DTRT when a user types that.
There is an enhancement for that.
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51897
IMO the current behaviour isnt correct. There are so few instances
that nowiki is desirable, that the current VE should refuse to accept
wikitext (at least [[ and {{, and maybe ==, # and * at beginning of
line, etc ), until at least such time as they have sorted out all the
other bugs causing this to happen unintentionally. If the user needs
to input [[ or {{ they can use the source editor. Or the VE could
walk the user through each nowiki and either a) ask the user to
confirm they want the obvious fix done automatically for them, or b)
help them fix the problem. Before saving.
nowiki is also being inserted at beginning of lines.
https://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yacimiento_de_Son_Forn%C3%A9sdiff=prevoldid=68561708
https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Lindperecurid=5580501diff=95038161oldid=95037498
instead of lists
https://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jorge_Eslavadiff=68542729oldid=68451155
There are 24 open bugs for 'visualeditor nowiki'
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?title=Special%3ASearchquicksearch=visualeditor%20nowikilist_id=219994
--
John Vandenberg
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Re: [Wikitech-l] VE and nowiki
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 2:14 PM, John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote:
There is an enhancement for that.
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51897
IMO the current behaviour isnt correct. There are so few instances
that nowiki is desirable, that the current VE should refuse to accept
wikitext (at least [[ and {{, and maybe ==, # and * at beginning of
line, etc ), until at least such time as they have sorted out all the
other bugs causing this to happen unintentionally. If the user needs
to input [[ or {{ they can use the source editor. Or the VE could
walk the user through each nowiki and either a) ask the user to
confirm they want the obvious fix done automatically for them, or b)
help them fix the problem. Before saving.
We disagree on that one then. VisualEditor is meant to hide wikitext
entirely. The primary focus is on people that don't know wikitext. I
agree that we should keep nowiki-fication to a minimum and get rid of
the other bugs that cause this to happen, but I think the action we
currently take when a user types in wikitext (which is to warn them
and say this won't work) is appropriate. VE is meant to be a visual
editor, not a
visual-except-with-weird-shortcuts-that-only-make-sense-if-you-know-the-legacy-markup-we-used-before-your-time
editor.
That's my opinion. Actual product direction is not something I'm in
charge of, that's James F's job, but AFAIK our current product
direction is similar to what I just said.
nowiki is also being inserted at beginning of lines.
https://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yacimiento_de_Son_Forn%C3%A9sdiff=prevoldid=68561708
https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Lindperecurid=5580501diff=95038161oldid=95037498
That's because the lines start with a space, which triggers a pre if
not nowiki-ed. Obviously the correct thing to do there is just remove
the space, but we haven't fixed that yet.
instead of lists
https://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jorge_Eslavadiff=68542729oldid=68451155
Once again that's people typing wikitext into VE, which is not supported.
There are 24 open bugs for 'visualeditor nowiki'
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/buglist.cgi?title=Special%3ASearchquicksearch=visualeditor%20nowikilist_id=219994
A lot of those are parts of symptoms of other bugs, and I'm pretty
sure a few of them are duplicates. nowiki often appears when
something else goes wrong and Parsoid attempts to fix things.
Roan
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Re: [Wikitech-l] VE and nowiki
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 2:55 PM, Roan Kattouw roan.katt...@gmail.com wrote:
snip
We disagree on that one then. VisualEditor is meant to hide wikitext
entirely. The primary focus is on people that don't know wikitext. I
agree that we should keep nowiki-fication to a minimum and get rid of
the other bugs that cause this to happen, but I think the action we
currently take when a user types in wikitext (which is to warn them
and say this won't work) is appropriate. VE is meant to be a visual
editor, not a
visual-except-with-weird-shortcuts-that-only-make-sense-if-you-know-the-legacy-markup-we-used-before-your-time
editor.
That's my opinion. Actual product direction is not something I'm in
charge of, that's James F's job, but AFAIK our current product
direction is similar to what I just said.
snip
If we accept, as a premise, that VE is aiming to eventually be the
best possible wiki editor for everyone, then I would say part of that
includes providing shortcuts and alternative workflows for some tasks.
Often power users may want an approach that works well for them, but
isn't necessarily intended to be easily discoverable by newbies.
Keyboard shortcuts are an example of this on many platforms.
To use an obvious example, the template editor coupled to TemplateData
is snazzy and probably helpful to many users who don't know parameter
names or aren't comfortable with syntax. That said, the template
editor is not particularly fast. For many applications using it can
be much more cumbersome than editing the wikitext directly, assuming
you already know what you want to edit / add.
While developers can (and probably should) work on making tools like
the template editor easier to use, that isn't necessarily the best
solution for all users. For many workflows giving power users a
limited means of manipulating wikitext directly -- without busting all
the way out of VE -- would seem to be a natural way of improving the
power user experience. Access to wikitext within VE could be
controlled by a button, or an option, or a keyboard shortcut, or magic
keystrokes like [[ and {{ that just work the old way. Any of
those approaches could work and each comes with different pluses and
minuses. In the long run providing good usability for the complex
tasks frequently performed by power users is just as important as
providing tools for newbies (at least if we assume VE is intended for
everyone), and I strongly believe that some form of advanced shortcuts
or integrated wikitext-like mode will likely be a part of that.
It's not enough to provide a pretty visual interface. One also has to
find ways to make that interface efficient and useful across a wide
spectrum of different user needs.
-Robert Rohde
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