[WISPA] Re: VOIP / CommPartners
Tom, CP is not a middle man. CP is the VOIP CLEC providing the service. Someone like Reignmaker or another ISP would be the middle man. Actually, CP is using the L3 model. But to say that a Reseller does not present costs to the vendor is incorrect. Training for one. With CP you get to send up to 4 people to classes in Vegas. Most of the time/effort/energy is for the first couple of orders. No start-up wants to use that much $$ to get 20 lines going. And billing (and associated collections) does have costs as well. Plus I won't get into the fact that LNP and E-911 are hard to automate. The LNP is handed off to L3. But OSS inter-operability with the 4 BOCs, Sprint, Alltel/Valor, and the myriad of miscellaneous independent ILECs and CLEC is not an easy task for Voice service. And if you look at the space: 1200+ providing VOIP to the EU. About 300+ providing retail and wholesale. I've watched wholesalers go BK. Why do you think L3 got out of it? I'm not saying CP's strategy is the best. Just that I understand it and if that is there model. Great. I do see others following suit. On the flip side, DIY VOIP, while attractive to the hands-on people on this list, is not always the best method. And with LNP, E-911 and federal/state fee collections, why bother when you can buy turnkey? Like Doug MacDonald says: IF you can not build it faster, cheaper and better, then buy it - don't build it. Not to keep badgering, but if voice was so easy, why did so many CLECs collapse?? VOIP is not data at the EU space. They may get mad about email issues, but if dial-tone don't work, your name will be mud. Imagine having a decent network size, good reputation, happy customers. Then start offering VOIP and have a few unexpected issues like bad call quality, busy signals, dropped calls. Won't be long before people won't want your data product either. I take issue with the Commodity market. If you think it is a commodity market, you don't understand the value yourself, so your employees and customers don't either. Then you have to sell on price. You need to take a class with Gitomer. He'll fix that attitude. Also, remember, if you can prioritize your network for your preferred VOIP provider, you cannot fault the BOCs for doing the same to their network. Just me 2 cents. Peter Tom DeReggi wrote: I've recomended CommPartners many times to WISPs, as a good choice for someone thats willing to pay the upfront fee, as their QOS and Value is high compared to other offerings in the space. Sales team was very responsive. Technically they were very responsive as well and appeared to be solid. However, now that someone has responded to my original post, its got me thinking, and I have to vent a small rampage. I agree and understand your explanation, and Commpartner's intent. I just think its the wrong view to have. There is no need for resellers (middle men) in VOIP. It just creates billing/cashflow headaches for everyone involved, not to mention support issues. That problem was learned with the DSL model. With DSL it was justified because the cost to have a DS3 pipe to each small volume ISP provider just wasn't realistic. So it was a technology barrier and cost barrier that justified the middleman model that included resellers. In VOIP there is no value added by the middle man, to justify it. There are better way to motivate partners than to create barrier to entry. What it really does is just deter partnerships from ever happening. Big volume is made by having a lot of small partners that sell a little bit, rather than a few partners that sell a lot. It sends a message that Commpartners only wants to deal with the big fish, or our competitors (ILECS / Cable companies), and thats not what I call an allie. How much time does it really take for a wholesaler like Commpartners to deal with a small WISP doing low volume? Its an automated web portal to do business!!! The truth is, the $5000 fee is a way for CommPartners to cover it's sales people's commissions. Wholesalers need to put as many resellers on the street as they can, some work, some don't, and if there are enough out there trying, the odds are you'll also get the ones that are successful. Everyone has potential, its near impossible to know in advance which partners end up being the volume ones. All that should matter is if there is scenargy between the two partner companies, and a likely hood that their is a match in the vision of the two parties. If CommPartners can't cost justify partnerships with low volume WISPs, then it really means CommPartners is not yet at the stage where it is automated enough yet, or its operations are not yet efficient enough to handle a large number of partners. That exposes a weakness in CommPartners. Success in VOIP is a race to obtain subscribers. They should be taking on EVERY partner they can get their hands on. If they don't recognize that, I fear they may not be
[WISPA] Customer owned wireless coop
There is a town (Yorktown, TX) with about 1200 people in it, about 15 miles away from our main pop in our county. We have not pursued a backhaul to there, or putting out a POP. We are very busy putting subs on our existing POPs and maintaining them.We have been offered roof rights in down town in trade for free internet. The town is poorer than average (way more mobile homes than frame/brick homes, more people than average on welfare, etc) The town is smaller than average, and there aren't many businesses in the town. Nonetheless, we do get at least a new call a week from the 20 or so people in town interested in broadband. There is no competition, EXCEPT dsl in the 2 mile circle right in the middle of downtown (not within most of the population) What we were thinking is this: Let us create a wireless cooperative and let the 20 potential subs buy shares for $500 each. The $10k will buy them a wireless backhaul (to my main tower), an AP tower, and an AP, 20 (coop owned) CPE, and enough manpower for us to deploy. The $40/mo (x1.5 for business customers) that they each pay will go toward buy bandwidth from us, pay for the manpower needed to deal with service calls, etc. Any profits left at the end of the year (over a capital equipment fund) get split with the coop members in the form of a dividend check, and maybe a barbeque. Maybe the non-coop member subscriber rate could be $49.00 (x1.5 for business) and they would still pay a $200 setup fee. Coop members wouldn't need to be subscribers, and subscribers wouldn't need to be coop members. A part time bookeeper would be needed to keep everything straight, although we could just keep those records with our books, but they should be audited anually. The Dewitt County Producers Coop is a feed store that sells feed, ranch supplies, baby chicks, baby fish (for stock tanks), tractor tires and parts, and other farm-ey stuff. Members and non-members can buy there, though members get an annual dividend based on their purchases (2% or something). Its a large operation, but DeWitt County is like the 4th largest beef cattle producing county in Texas (the largest beef cattle producing state). They have been very successful, in spite of having competition, and I think a wireless internet deployment could be financially modeled the same way. Its not that I don't want to get the profits for myself, but the return on a $10k (or $20k) deployment could be several years in a market that small. Anyone else doing anything like this? Pete Davis NoDial.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Customer owned wireless coop
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 We are doing something similar. La Cañada Wireless Association (www.lcwireless.net), located in rural NM, S/SE of Santa Fe. Terrain here seemed pretty flat when we started but seems to have gotten real up and down since :). We have about 150 members paying $40 per month with 3 megabits upstream in 2 locations. Coverage is about 400 square miles or so. We started about 3.5 years ago with about 16 members. We first needed enough people to fund the $900 per month needed for a T-1 at $60 per month each. We had some loaned equipment (Wave) for AP's. Our startup costs were in the neighborhood of $8000-12000, since paid back to the funders. People buy their own CPE. Installation by volunteers. Support by volunteers. We've had a steep learning curve, plus some infrastructure problems which I think we've beaten into submission. We have found that some people prefer us, even though DSL (as of late) and Comcast are alternatives for some. One person even funded a solar-power access point (we have 3 so far) so he could flush Starband (the coop's paid him back for that). For others, we are the only link to the world. They're off the grid, have spotty cell coverage and no landline phone. But they've got high-speed internet. Those are the people that make me happy to have started this. We're still waiting for the IRS on our 501(c)12 application, but our lawyer was OK with our model. We do our own bookkeeping (volunteer elected treasurer, countersigned checks, so far no problems). We are also willing to function as an umbrella for other local groups, although that hasn't happened (yet). Another option is money through USDA, but that probably takes a heckuva long time. Your model sounds eminently reasonable and doable. I'd say go for it. You're in the business, know your costs for field support, equipment, etc. which removes a lot of the uncertainty from things. Bob Pete Davis wrote: There is a town (Yorktown, TX) with about 1200 people in it, about 15 miles away from our main pop in our county. We have not pursued a backhaul to there, or putting out a POP. We are very busy putting subs on our existing POPs and maintaining them.We have been offered roof rights in down town in trade for free internet. The town is poorer than average (way more mobile homes than frame/brick homes, more people than average on welfare, etc) The town is smaller than average, and there aren't many businesses in the town. Nonetheless, we do get at least a new call a week from the 20 or so people in town interested in broadband. There is no competition, EXCEPT dsl in the 2 mile circle right in the middle of downtown (not within most of the population) What we were thinking is this: Let us create a wireless cooperative and let the 20 potential subs buy shares for $500 each. The $10k will buy them a wireless backhaul (to my main tower), an AP tower, and an AP, 20 (coop owned) CPE, and enough manpower for us to deploy. The $40/mo (x1.5 for business customers) that they each pay will go toward buy bandwidth from us, pay for the manpower needed to deal with service calls, etc. Any profits left at the end of the year (over a capital equipment fund) get split with the coop members in the form of a dividend check, and maybe a barbeque. Maybe the non-coop member subscriber rate could be $49.00 (x1.5 for business) and they would still pay a $200 setup fee. Coop members wouldn't need to be subscribers, and subscribers wouldn't need to be coop members. A part time bookeeper would be needed to keep everything straight, although we could just keep those records with our books, but they should be audited anually. The Dewitt County Producers Coop is a feed store that sells feed, ranch supplies, baby chicks, baby fish (for stock tanks), tractor tires and parts, and other farm-ey stuff. Members and non-members can buy there, though members get an annual dividend based on their purchases (2% or something). Its a large operation, but DeWitt County is like the 4th largest beef cattle producing county in Texas (the largest beef cattle producing state). They have been very successful, in spite of having competition, and I think a wireless internet deployment could be financially modeled the same way. Its not that I don't want to get the profits for myself, but the return on a $10k (or $20k) deployment could be several years in a market that small. Anyone else doing anything like this? Pete Davis NoDial.net -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDtrWO09OzCOxY0TcRArQzAJ0TlHHAlXvgzVM+FHhFckSy6EIiKwCcCQoA jRK34HEk97BAS5akbs8FFZY= =Sm5x -END PGP SIGNATURE- begin:vcard fn:Bob Knight n:Knight;Bob email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:505.667.4300 tel;home:505.466.4548 tel;cell:505.310.8409 version:2.1 end:vcard -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Customer owned wireless coop
Well, in the coop model, if there are only 10 subs, and the group is losing money (like I would be if I paid for a T1 out there, not so bad if I feed it wirelessly) its up to the members (coop owners) to get more subscribers. This model would give me limited upside, and VERY limited downside to the project's success or failure. pd Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Around here most peoples option is DIAL-UP or me. I don't consider this area poor. A lot of farms. People living out in the rural area and drive to their factory jobs/whatever. I have a hard time getting them to pay $199 install and 34.95/month for 768k. I don't know how your gonna charge $50/month to people living in trailers. -Kurt There is a town (Yorktown, TX) with about 1200 people in it, about 15 miles away from our main pop in our county. We have not pursued a backhaul to there, or putting out a POP. We are very busy putting subs on our existing POPs and maintaining them.We have been offered roof rights in down town in trade for free internet. The town is poorer than average (way more mobile homes than frame/brick homes, more people than average on welfare, etc) The town is smaller than average, and there aren't many businesses in the town. Nonetheless, we do get at least a new call a week from the 20 or so people in town interested in broadband. There is no competition, EXCEPT dsl in the 2 mile circle right in the middle of downtown (not within most of the population) What we were thinking is this: Let us create a wireless cooperative and let the 20 potential subs buy shares for $500 each. The $10k will buy them a wireless backhaul (to my main tower), an AP tower, and an AP, 20 (coop owned) CPE, and enough manpower for us to deploy. The $40/mo (x1.5 for business customers) that they each pay will go toward buy bandwidth from us, pay for the manpower needed to deal with service calls, etc. Any profits left at the end of the year (over a capital equipment fund) get split with the coop members in the form of a dividend check, and maybe a barbeque. Maybe the non-coop member subscriber rate could be $49.00 (x1.5 for business) and they would still pay a $200 setup fee. Coop members wouldn't need to be subscribers, and subscribers wouldn't need to be coop members. A part time bookeeper would be needed to keep everything straight, although we could just keep those records with our books, but they should be audited anually. The Dewitt County Producers Coop is a feed store that sells feed, ranch supplies, baby chicks, baby fish (for stock tanks), tractor tires and parts, and other farm-ey stuff. Members and non-members can buy there, though members get an annual dividend based on their purchases (2% or something). Its a large operation, but DeWitt County is like the 4th largest beef cattle producing county in Texas (the largest beef cattle producing state). They have been very successful, in spite of having competition, and I think a wireless internet deployment could be financially modeled the same way. Its not that I don't want to get the profits for myself, but the return on a $10k (or $20k) deployment could be several years in a market that small. Anyone else doing anything like this? Pete Davis NoDial.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Kurt Fankhauser WaveLinc www.wavelinc.com 114 S. Walnut St. Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
