Re: [WISPA] lightning
Lightning is by far the largest threat to our WISP. It would be interesting to know the typical CPE failure rate (due to lightning) experienced by WISP's. I know that we'll replace 10% (+/- 5%) this year due to lightning. We use the $30 Citel brand Cat5 surge protectors on both ends of the outdoor shielded Cat5 and we also ground the mounting arm to an approved earth ground via 10 guage copper wire. I don't believe we've taken any direct strikes, mainly blown Ethernet ports on the CPE or AP. IMO, owning a WISP would be a LOT less stressful if wireless gear was not so prone to damage caused by lightning. BTW, if you would like to share your own CPE-lightning-failure-rates with the list, please do so. Same goes for lightning protection tips, tricks and wisdom. Anyone using coaxial surge protection on 50% or more of your CPE installations? If so, would you say that it is worth the extra $15 - $20 per install? How do your failure rates with coaxial surge protection compare with installations where there is none? Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Brent Hegerfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 5:06 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] lightning Lightning has not been very kind to us the past few months. Knocked a backhaul out on our main tower, another tower hit 3 times (twice in 1 week), another tower hit this past week, going on 10+ CPE's. I'm told the probability of lightning over the next 4 months is low. Let's hope. Brent Hegerfeld East Allen High Speed Internet, LLC. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of KyWiFi LLC Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning We offer an optional $4.99 Equipment Protection Plan for residential subscribers and it's $9.99 for Commercial and Non-Profit accounts. If they wish to waive it, they must furnish us with documentation from their insurance agency stating that it will be covered. No exceptions. As a result, approx. 95% of our subscribers purchase our EPP. The added revenue allows us to cover the cost of CPE that gets taken out by lightning and the associated service call fees we incur. Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning If it's your equipment and the customer didn't damage it (hit it with a rock etc.) then it's your problem to deal with. The cheaper the gear, usually the easier it is to break :-). I've had much less trouble this year with cpe from Tranzeo than from any other brand I've used. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: chris cooper To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 7:55 AM Subject: [WISPA] lightning We had the lightning storm of the century here 2 days ago. It was an awesome spectacle to witness. It was a much more distressing spectacle to watch our network map begin to blink red all over the place. Which leads me to a couple of questions: How do you handle customer installations that get fried? We install and own the gear. We are taking the external ones on the chin. We took down one panel that has a big black hole right in the center. Another customer has a hole in his roof- our gear died along with the roof. What do you do if the customer AC takes a shot, and burns your equipment? Do they pay because it came in on their side or do you take the replacement and the truck roll on the chin because you own the equipment? We have multiple brands of products on the same towers. The tower that took a hit was populated with, among other things, some B-14s, proxim QB, and some
RE: [WISPA] lightning
I have a friend that is a tech for VZ and goes around replacing cell gear hit by lightning. Even with the protection that VZ puts on their equipment, grounding, surge arrestors, etc., let's just say he gets a lot of overtime during the summer. ;-) No matter what you do to try to protect the gear, you will still see some failures. Of course, those failures can be reduced by adding surge protection. I think you have to look at the numbers to see if they work for you. If you can estimate your failure rate and the cost each failure costs, then you can compare with the $30~50 more you will spend to try to protect it. Also, you can compare the cost to the cost of a radio that has built-in surge protection (usually a few $$ more to pay for the protection device). If the numbers work out, then add the protection. If it does not, then don't. Of course there is also the health aspect I suppose... ;-) -Hal __ Harold Bledsoe Deliberant LLC 800.742.9865 x205 http://www.deliberant.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of KyWiFi LLC Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 3:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning Lightning is by far the largest threat to our WISP. It would be interesting to know the typical CPE failure rate (due to lightning) experienced by WISP's. I know that we'll replace 10% (+/- 5%) this year due to lightning. We use the $30 Citel brand Cat5 surge protectors on both ends of the outdoor shielded Cat5 and we also ground the mounting arm to an approved earth ground via 10 guage copper wire. I don't believe we've taken any direct strikes, mainly blown Ethernet ports on the CPE or AP. IMO, owning a WISP would be a LOT less stressful if wireless gear was not so prone to damage caused by lightning. BTW, if you would like to share your own CPE-lightning-failure-rates with the list, please do so. Same goes for lightning protection tips, tricks and wisdom. Anyone using coaxial surge protection on 50% or more of your CPE installations? If so, would you say that it is worth the extra $15 - $20 per install? How do your failure rates with coaxial surge protection compare with installations where there is none? Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Brent Hegerfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 5:06 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] lightning Lightning has not been very kind to us the past few months. Knocked a backhaul out on our main tower, another tower hit 3 times (twice in 1 week), another tower hit this past week, going on 10+ CPE's. I'm told the probability of lightning over the next 4 months is low. Let's hope. Brent Hegerfeld East Allen High Speed Internet, LLC. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of KyWiFi LLC Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning We offer an optional $4.99 Equipment Protection Plan for residential subscribers and it's $9.99 for Commercial and Non-Profit accounts. If they wish to waive it, they must furnish us with documentation from their insurance agency stating that it will be covered. No exceptions. As a result, approx. 95% of our subscribers purchase our EPP. The added revenue allows us to cover the cost of CPE that gets taken out by lightning and the associated service call fees we incur. Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning If it's your equipment and the customer didn't damage it (hit it with a rock etc.) then it's your problem to deal with. The cheaper the gear, usually the easier it is to break :-). I've had much less trouble this year with cpe from Tranzeo than from any other brand I've used. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)
Re: [WISPA] lightning
Actually, I've been fairly lucky. The only lightning losses I've had were on my tower. I've got one CPE that may have been taken out by lightning, but it came through the house and blew a LOT of other stuff as well. To me, to add $30 per install doesn't make sense when I've only lost 1 (percentage-wise, less than 1% for me) in a little over a year. - Original Message - From: KyWiFi LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 2:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning Lightning is by far the largest threat to our WISP. It would be interesting to know the typical CPE failure rate (due to lightning) experienced by WISP's. I know that we'll replace 10% (+/- 5%) this year due to lightning. We use the $30 Citel brand Cat5 surge protectors on both ends of the outdoor shielded Cat5 and we also ground the mounting arm to an approved earth ground via 10 guage copper wire. I don't believe we've taken any direct strikes, mainly blown Ethernet ports on the CPE or AP. IMO, owning a WISP would be a LOT less stressful if wireless gear was not so prone to damage caused by lightning. BTW, if you would like to share your own CPE-lightning-failure-rates with the list, please do so. Same goes for lightning protection tips, tricks and wisdom. Anyone using coaxial surge protection on 50% or more of your CPE installations? If so, would you say that it is worth the extra $15 - $20 per install? How do your failure rates with coaxial surge protection compare with installations where there is none? Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Brent Hegerfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 5:06 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] lightning Lightning has not been very kind to us the past few months. Knocked a backhaul out on our main tower, another tower hit 3 times (twice in 1 week), another tower hit this past week, going on 10+ CPE's. I'm told the probability of lightning over the next 4 months is low. Let's hope. Brent Hegerfeld East Allen High Speed Internet, LLC. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of KyWiFi LLC Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning We offer an optional $4.99 Equipment Protection Plan for residential subscribers and it's $9.99 for Commercial and Non-Profit accounts. If they wish to waive it, they must furnish us with documentation from their insurance agency stating that it will be covered. No exceptions. As a result, approx. 95% of our subscribers purchase our EPP. The added revenue allows us to cover the cost of CPE that gets taken out by lightning and the associated service call fees we incur. Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning If it's your equipment and the customer didn't damage it (hit it with a rock etc.) then it's your problem to deal with. The cheaper the gear, usually the easier it is to break :-). I've had much less trouble this year with cpe from Tranzeo than from any other brand I've used. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: chris cooper To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 7:55 AM Subject: [WISPA] lightning We had the lightning storm of the century here 2 days ago. It was an awesome spectacle to witness. It was a much more distressing spectacle to watch our network map begin to blink red all over the place. Which leads me to a couple of questions: How do you handle customer installations that get fried? We install and own the gear. We are taking the
Re: [WISPA] lightning
I lost 15% of my CPE's one year. It was a dry Summer (I theorize the earth was not conducting well), then we had a couple of bad storms. Using a $1.50 inductor on the Ethernet cable near the radios really seems to have helped a lot. Brad Hagstrom On 10/7/06, Jason Hensley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I've been fairly lucky.The only lightning losses I've had wereon my tower.I've got one CPE that may have been taken out by lightning, but it came through the house and blew a LOT of other stuff as well.To me,to add $30 per install doesn't make sense when I've only lost 1(percentage-wise, less than 1% for me) in a little over a year. - Original Message -From: KyWiFi LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgSent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 2:53 AMSubject: Re: [WISPA] lightning Lightning is by far the largest threat to our WISP. It would be interesting to know the typical CPE failure rate (due to lightning) experienced by WISP's. I know that we'll replace 10% (+/- 5%) this year due to lightning. We use the $30 Citel brand Cat5 surge protectors on both ends of the outdoor shielded Cat5 and we also ground the mounting arm to an approved earth ground via 10 guage copper wire. I don't believe we've taken any direct strikes, mainly blown Ethernet ports on the CPE or AP. IMO, owning a WISP would be a LOT less stressful if wireless gear was not so prone to damage caused by lightning. BTW, if you would like to share your own CPE-lightning-failure-rates with the list, please do so. Same goes for lightning protection tips, tricks and wisdom. Anyone using coaxial surge protection on 50% or more of your CPE installations? If so, would you say that it is worth the extra $15 - $20 per install? How do your failure rates with coaxial surge protection compare with installations where there is none? Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Brent Hegerfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 5:06 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] lightning Lightning has not been very kind to us the past few months.Knocked a backhaul out on our main tower, another tower hit 3 times (twice in 1 week), another tower hit this past week, going on 10+ CPE's.I'm told the probability of lightning over the next 4 months is low.Let's hope. Brent Hegerfeld East Allen High Speed Internet, LLC. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of KyWiFi LLC Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning We offer an optional $4.99 Equipment Protection Plan for residential subscribers and it's $9.99 for Commercial and Non-Profit accounts. If they wish to waive it, they must furnish us with documentation from their insurance agency stating that it will be covered. No exceptions. As a result, approx. 95% of our subscribers purchase our EPP. The added revenue allows us to cover the cost of CPE that gets taken out by lightning and the associated service call fees we incur. Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning If it's your equipment and the customer didn't damage it (hit it with a rock etc.) then it's your problem to deal with. The cheaper the gear, usually the easier it is to break :-). I've had much less trouble this year with cpe from Tranzeo than from any other brand I've used. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message -From: chris cooperTo: 'WISPA General List'Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 7:55 AMSubject: [WISPA] lightning We had the lightning storm of the century here 2 days ago.It was an awesome spectacle to witness.It was a much more distressing spectacle to watch our network map begin to blink red all over the place.Which
Re: [WISPA] WDS PtMP
On thing I forgot to mention is that every single packet transmitted is going to be retransmitted on all the WDS/AP connected together on the wireless side. With sustained traffic that would mean that all of them are transmitting and receiving the 2 megs mentioned. And we can assume that these units are not exactly all the same distance or under the same exact load so there will be very tiny differences when each unit will be retransmitting that 2 meg of traffic. I am not real happy with the way I explained this let me know if it makes any sense :) Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Anthony Will wrote: It would seem to me that as your load increased your WDS/APs are transmitting over each other as clients are trying to transmit to the central AP. client --WDS/AP transmitting carrier beacons or other data to client and passing onto to --WDS/AP--WDS/AP--Client (transmitting to local AP) In this scenario you have the two clients talking and one AP all trying to talk at the same time and thus raising your noise floor because they are all on the same channel. There is not a feature in standard WDS to coordinate who can talk and who can not talk other then the standard CDMA layer of the 802.11 protocol. This will create issues as the more load you have on this setup the more self interference and retransmissions you will incur. The big thing the mesh brings to the table is the ability to help coordinate all of this traffic so that you can utilize the spectrum more efficiently. At least that is my opinion as soon as someone actually does it. You likely are going to have to switch to a station /AP solution for this setup because everything is to close and can hear each other. This will destroy your bridge setup unless you change to a propitiatory system such as Trango, Canopy, etc. One other thing to note is that this is all half duplex so you might have two many hops and thus running out of bandwidth. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Tom DeReggi wrote: Background In standard WIFI, a principle exists called hidden note, where two CPEs transmit at the same time and colide because they do not hear each other. There are three ways to get around that, using WIFI between Client and AP. 1) Polling (Karlnet, Nstream, Proprietary), 2) Use Omnis, so radios can hear each other if in close proximity, 3) RTS/CTS which effectively solves the problem at a significant performance degregation. A well know problem with well known solutions. Issue. How does this play our with WDS? AP to AP communication. Sure in PtP its a non-issue, because there are only two radios involved to complete the link. But WDS allows PtMP operation. How does WDS commuication work? Does the Hidden Node problem exist with PtMP WDS? And if so, is there a way to address it? If so, will it help to make the CPE's Omnis, so they hear each other? My confusion is how WDS/WDS works compared to Station/AP modes. Example application: Using 802.11a gear. 5 seperate MTU buildings, spread out within 300 yards of each other. 1 is a Master AP Site, with an Omni, and a second backhaul radio to the Internet. 4 of the 5 have a direction CPE style antenna pointing to the Master Antenna. WDS is used to allow the radios to operate as true transparent bridges, and to pass per client (5-10 clients per MTU) large packet VLAN traffic. (Note: There is a reason we did not select Nstreme w/ Polling. It may have been an incompatibilty with WDS or inabilty to do transparent bridging with large packets, which standard 802.11 station mode does not support under protocol. May have been early version of Firmware, not sure if still an issue) Why I thought it might be an issue: Surveys show low noise. However, as more clients have been taken on (2 mbps average sustained throughput all combined), the Link quality started to degregate as if the noise floor was rising. As a tempoirary measure, we switched to 5.2Ghz (indoor only FREQ, which appeared not to have any detectable noise in standard 802.11 based survey tools, and was chosen because non-detectable carrier grade gear would not use those channels). Its hard to believe that the noise floor would be that high using that freq. So I'm wondering if the noise that I'm hearing is actually my own CPEs within this project? The symptom was sparatic higher latency, what typically would happen if 802.11a had frequent retransmissions (native prorocol ARQ). I can look at stats to see if there are re-transmissions, but that data is pointless, as what I want to know is, is the retransmisison because my own noise or someone elses. Its hard to tell with WiFi, as WiFi doesn't transmit when its not in use. So testing in the middle of the night, when clients and users in town are off, may not be meaningful. Its also possible, that I just have a failing
Re: [WISPA] lightning
Can you share some info on the $1.50 inductor you reference below? Do you then ground the inductor to the mounting arm which is then grounded to an earth ground? Please share if you don't mind, inquiring minds would LOVE to know. ;-) Also, where are the bulk of your subscribers located (city/state)? I would venture to say that WISP's out west have fewer lightning related failures than WISP's in the East or South. Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Jenco Wireless [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning I lost 15% of my CPE's one year. It was a dry Summer (I theorize the earth was not conducting well), then we had a couple of bad storms. Using a $1.50 inductor on the Ethernet cable near the radios really seems to have helped a lot. Brad Hagstrom On 10/7/06, Jason Hensley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I've been fairly lucky. The only lightning losses I've had were on my tower. I've got one CPE that may have been taken out by lightning, but it came through the house and blew a LOT of other stuff as well. To me, to add $30 per install doesn't make sense when I've only lost 1 (percentage-wise, less than 1% for me) in a little over a year. - Original Message - From: KyWiFi LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 2:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning Lightning is by far the largest threat to our WISP. It would be interesting to know the typical CPE failure rate (due to lightning) experienced by WISP's. I know that we'll replace 10% (+/- 5%) this year due to lightning. We use the $30 Citel brand Cat5 surge protectors on both ends of the outdoor shielded Cat5 and we also ground the mounting arm to an approved earth ground via 10 guage copper wire. I don't believe we've taken any direct strikes, mainly blown Ethernet ports on the CPE or AP. IMO, owning a WISP would be a LOT less stressful if wireless gear was not so prone to damage caused by lightning. BTW, if you would like to share your own CPE-lightning-failure-rates with the list, please do so. Same goes for lightning protection tips, tricks and wisdom. Anyone using coaxial surge protection on 50% or more of your CPE installations? If so, would you say that it is worth the extra $15 - $20 per install? How do your failure rates with coaxial surge protection compare with installations where there is none? Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Brent Hegerfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 5:06 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] lightning Lightning has not been very kind to us the past few months. Knocked a backhaul out on our main tower, another tower hit 3 times (twice in 1 week), another tower hit this past week, going on 10+ CPE's. I'm told the probability of lightning over the next 4 months is low. Let's hope. Brent Hegerfeld East Allen High Speed Internet, LLC. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of KyWiFi LLC Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning We offer an optional $4.99 Equipment Protection Plan for residential subscribers and it's $9.99 for Commercial and Non-Profit accounts. If they wish to waive it, they must furnish us with documentation from their insurance agency stating that it will be covered. No exceptions. As a result, approx. 95% of our subscribers purchase our EPP. The added revenue allows us to cover the cost of CPE that gets taken out by lightning and the associated service call fees we incur. Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital
Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations
We pay $10 - $30 to a sub-contractor to do a site survey and we usually have 5 - 10 of them a week. This has been an expense we've absorbed but starting in the next few days, we will be passing this fee along to the person requesting the site survey. If their site survey is successful and they purchase our service, their site survey will be free. If their site survey is unsuccessful or if it is successful but they do not purchase our service within (3) business days following us notifying them that the site survey was successful, then their credit card will be billed a $29.99 site survey fee. We will be having them submit their credit card info at the time of their site survey request so we have it on file prior to their site survey. This will also streamline things because the subcontractor will no longer need to ask them for their credit card info on the day of their installation. How are other list members handling site survey related expenses? BTW, we keep a database of street addresses which show if its site survey was successful or not. This allows us to avoid site surveys in the same area from time to time depending on the terrain. While we're on the topic of site surveys, has anyone heard or seen of an affordable handheld device that can be attached to an antenna and then display the SSID and signal/noise readings? I know bvsystems.com has some similar devices but they are way over priced IMHO. I purchased an iPAQ and PCMCIA expansion sleeve but every Orinoco Gold card I have locks up in it after a few minutes so it is not what I would call reliable. I wonder if you can purchase a PCMCIA expansion sleeve for the Dell Axim PDA? I really think it would perform better than the iPAQ if this is possible. Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Mark Nash - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations I've done all of our installations so things have been easy, but I'm moving toward contractor installs. As it has been, I have not done site surveys...I go out to install and if I don't get the connection I walk away and the customer doesn't owe us anything. So I'm out a little time and a slot on the schedule...big deal. With contractor installs, how do people handle this? Do we do site surveys prior to the installation? I know that there are owners out there that own remote systems so you must pay something for site surveys or pay something for unsuccessful installations??? Mark Nash Network Engineer UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message - From: Rick Smith To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 9:57 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Outsourced installations right – but I hand them the EQ, name and number and let them schedule their installs. They pay me $10 back if I hear from a customer that they didn’t make an appointment, and they credit me the install if I get a complaint serious enough from the customer.. J R From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pete Davis Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 12:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations We actually did that for a while. It works out well, except that a contractor must provide his own tools and manage his own time. In other words, I cannot promise that he will be at Mr Smith's house at 2:00p on Wednesday. He has to be the one to schedule installs. It gets real fuzzy there. pd Rick Smith wrote: the answer is hire a company to do installations for you. if your employee just happens to own that company, well, oh well… It’s all invoices. Pay them as normal, and you don’t need to worry about taxes, etc. Your employee (or sub’d company J…) does that on their own. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 5:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations Where the problems come in are, that paying someone peice rate does NOT NEGATE the requirement to pay overtime for Employees. Nor does it Negate the IRS's definition of what an EMployee is and a contractor is. You have to restrict employees to work less than 40 hours or prepair to pay time and a half for your peice rate. If an employee works 60 hours, and completes three installs at
Re: [WISPA] lightning
http://pdfcatalog.digikey.com/T063/1150.pdf#search=%22digikey%20240-2318-nd%22 I use the 240-2318-ND (towards the bottom of the page). Just wrap the Ethernet cable through it as many times as possible. You have to purchase 100 to get that low, low price I mentioned :-). We are located in Ohio. Brad Hagstrom (Jenco Wireless) On 10/7/06, KyWiFi LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you share some info on the $1.50 inductor you reference below?Do you then ground the inductor to the mounting arm which is then grounded to an earth ground? Please share if you don't mind, inquiringminds would LOVE to know. ;-)Also, where are the bulk of your subscribers located (city/state)? Iwould venture to say that WISP's out west have fewer lightning related failures than WISP's in the East or South.Shannon D. Denniston, Co-FounderKyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, KentuckyYour Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.comCall Us Today: 859.274.4033===$29.99 DSL High Speed Internet$14.99 Home Phone Service$19.99 All Digital Satellite TV- No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment- Affordable Upfront Pricing- Locally Owned Operated- We Also Service Most Rural Areas===- Original Message -From: Jenco Wireless [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgSent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightningI lost 15% of my CPE's one year.It was a dry Summer (I theorize the earthwas not conducting well), then we had a couple of bad storms.Usinga$1.50 inductor on the Ethernet cable near the radios really seems to have helped a lot.Brad HagstromOn 10/7/06, Jason Hensley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I've been fairly lucky.The only lightning losses I've had were on my tower.I've got one CPE that may have been taken out by lightning, but it came through the house and blew a LOT of other stuff as well.To me, to add $30 per install doesn't make sense when I've only lost 1 (percentage-wise, less than 1% for me) in a little over a year. - Original Message - From: KyWiFi LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 2:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning Lightning is by far the largest threat to our WISP. It would be interesting to know the typical CPE failure rate (due to lightning) experienced by WISP's. I know that we'll replace 10% (+/- 5%) this year due to lightning. We use the $30 Citel brand Cat5 surge protectors on both ends of the outdoor shielded Cat5 and we also ground the mounting arm to an approved earth ground via 10 guage copper wire. I don't believe we've taken any direct strikes, mainly blown Ethernet ports on the CPE or AP. IMO, owning a WISP would be a LOT less stressful if wireless gear was not so prone to damage caused by lightning. BTW, if you would like to share your own CPE-lightning-failure-rates with the list, please do so. Same goes for lightning protection tips, tricks and wisdom. Anyone using coaxial surge protection on 50% or more of your CPE installations? If so, would you say that it is worth the extra $15 - $20 per install? How do your failure rates with coaxial surge protection compare with installations where there is none?Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas ===- Original Message - From: Brent Hegerfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 5:06 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] lightning Lightning has not been very kind to us the past few months.Knocked a backhaul out on our main tower, another tower hit 3 times (twice in 1 week), another tower hit this past week, going on 10+ CPE's.I'm told the probability of lightning over the next 4 months is low.Let's hope. Brent Hegerfeld East Allen High Speed Internet, LLC.-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of KyWiFi LLC Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] lightning We offer an optional $4.99 Equipment Protection Plan for residential subscribers and it's $9.99 for Commercial and Non-Profit accounts. If they wish to waive it, they must furnish us with documentation from their insurance agency stating that it will be covered. No exceptions. As a result, approx. 95% of our subscribers purchase our EPP. The added revenue allows us to cover the cost of CPE that gets taken out by lightning and the associated service call fees we incur.Shannon D. Denniston,
Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations
Hi, We stopped doing site surveys almost 4 years ago. We were spending way too much time and having to send someone to the location twice seemed like a waste. (some of our coverage area is a 2 hour drive each way) We now have coverage maps and tell people we no longer do site surveys. Based on your location, you should be able to get a signal. If you want to sign up for service, we'll send a tech out to perform the installation. If they can not get a signal while there, we don't charge you anything. That way, they are locked in to buying the service if we can get it to work, and you aren't wasting your time. Travis Microserv KyWiFi LLC wrote: We pay $10 - $30 to a sub-contractor to do a site survey and we usually have 5 - 10 of them a week. This has been an expense we've absorbed but starting in the next few days, we will be passing this fee along to the person requesting the site survey. If their site survey is successful and they purchase our service, their site survey will be free. If their site survey is unsuccessful or if it is successful but they do not purchase our service within (3) business days following us notifying them that the site survey was successful, then their credit card will be billed a $29.99 site survey fee. We will be having them submit their credit card info at the time of their site survey request so we have it on file prior to their site survey. This will also streamline things because the subcontractor will no longer need to ask them for their credit card info on the day of their installation. How are other list members handling site survey related expenses? BTW, we keep a database of street addresses which show if its site survey was successful or not. This allows us to avoid site surveys in the same area from time to time depending on the terrain. While we're on the topic of site surveys, has anyone heard or seen of an affordable handheld device that can be attached to an antenna and then display the SSID and signal/noise readings? I know bvsystems.com has some similar devices but they are way over priced IMHO. I purchased an iPAQ and PCMCIA expansion sleeve but every Orinoco Gold card I have locks up in it after a few minutes so it is not what I would call reliable. I wonder if you can purchase a PCMCIA expansion sleeve for the Dell Axim PDA? I really think it would perform better than the iPAQ if this is possible. Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $29.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service $19.99 All Digital Satellite TV - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: Mark Nash - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations I've done all of our installations so things have been easy, but I'm moving toward contractor installs. As it has been, I have not done site surveys...I go out to install and if I don't get the connection I walk away and the customer doesn't owe us anything. So I'm out a little time and a slot on the schedule...big deal. With contractor installs, how do people handle this? Do we do site surveys prior to the installation? I know that there are owners out there that own remote systems so you must pay something for site surveys or pay something for unsuccessful installations??? Mark Nash Network Engineer UnwiredOnline.Net 350 Holly Street Junction City, OR 97448 http://www.uwol.net 541-998- 541-998-5599 fax - Original Message - From: Rick Smith To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 9:57 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Outsourced installations right – but I hand them the EQ, name and number and let them schedule their installs. They pay me $10 back if I hear from a customer that they didn’t make an appointment, and they credit me the install if I get a complaint serious enough from the customer.. J R From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pete Davis Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 12:15 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations We actually did that for a while. It works out well, except that a contractor must provide his own tools and manage his own time. In other words, I cannot promise that he will be at Mr Smith's house at 2:00p on Wednesday. He has to be the one to schedule installs. It gets real fuzzy there. pd Rick Smith wrote: the answer is hire a company to do installations for you. if your employee just happens to own that company, well, oh well… It’s all invoices. Pay them as normal, and you don’t need to worry about taxes, etc. Your employee (or
Re: [WISPA] lightning
On 10/7/06, Jenco Wireless [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://pdfcatalog.digikey.com/T063/1150.pdf#search=%22digikey%20240-2318-nd%22 I use the 240-2318-ND (towards the bottom of the page). Just wrap the Ethernet cable through it as many times as possible. You have to purchase 100 to get that low, low price I mentioned :-). We are located in Ohio. Sounds like this is more for reducing EMI .. how do you figure it protects from lightning damage?Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Crown Castle / Global signal
How do you figure? Crown Castle is a nightmare to work with, and Global Signal has worked well with WISPS. I hope Crown Castle takes Global Signal's good sense with the purchase. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Blake Bowers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:15 PM Subject: [WISPA] Crown Castle / Global signal Crown Castle agreed to acquire Global Signal for 4 billion cash and stock deal as of yesterday. Good news for us small guys! -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.0/465 - Release Date: 10/6/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WDS PtMP
Marlon, For clarification 1) Yes 5.250-5.350 is for outdoor, but I temporarilly put my radio to a channel under 5.25 which is in the 5.1 band for indoor only use, for the temporary testing. 2) My primary goal in the original post was to learn the difference between Wifi Station/client and Wifi WDS at the protocol level on how the protocol makes communications. For example, can they both do CTS/RTS? Unless the WDS protocol is fully understood, its not possible to design networks optimally using WDS. 3) Mikrotik actually has several WDS modes. They may not all necesarilly operate the same at the protocol level. 4) Also, the reason the network was done this way was that only one of the five buildings had LOS to our network. All clients within the building are done with wires. Normally we would have done this site with Trango PtMP, but when it was installed (1.5years ago), Trango had a short range packet loss problem and no Omni AP option. Cosmetic requirements from Property owner for the main site, would not allow Sector AP antennas for each remote buildings, so Omni was required. WDS was required as Standard Wifi was not true bridging. This was actually an excellent case study site for Mikrotik acting as both the radio and VLAN switch w/9 ethernet ports on CPEs. 5) There are many ways to improve the network, the problem, is I'm looking to be as least disruptive as possible, and don;t want to use the customer base as guinee pigs, so looking to better understand WDS at the protocol level. One of our consideration, is that we may leave the Mikrotiks as the Building routers, and repalce the outdoor stuff with Trango, not that it has good short range gear. But there is no reason to do that unless WDS is truly the cause. We have not proven that for certain yet. We can also solve it, by adding a second WDS Master AP, and then we'd split the load and have redundancy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WDS PtMP - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi To: WISPA General List Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:09 AM Subject: [WISPA] WDS PtMP Background In standard WIFI, a principle exists called hidden note, where two CPEs transmit at the same time and colide because they do not hear each other. There are three ways to get around that, using WIFI between Client and AP. 1) Polling (Karlnet, Nstream, Proprietary), 2) Use Omnis, so radios can hear each other if in close proximity, 3) RTS/CTS which effectively solves the problem at a significant performance degregation. A well know problem with well known solutions. mks: Close. It's when two CPE talk at the same time and the AP can't hear one of them because the other one is louder. This is part of why you should never build a network using the same size antennas everywhere. And why more power isn't always better. I try to keep all of my cpe within about 10 dB of each other. mks: It can ALSO be where two cpe talk at the same time because they don't know each other exists. This causes a collision at the ap (it can't understand either one of them) and after a random backoff time they'll each try again. mks: The easy fix to that problem is usually to just add another ap as you've filled up the one you already have :-). Issue. How does this play our with WDS? AP to AP communication. Sure in PtP its a non-issue, because there are only two radios involved to complete the link. But WDS allows PtMP operation. How does WDS commuication work? Does the Hidden Node problem exist with PtMP WDS? And if so, is there a way to address it? If so, will it help to make the CPE's Omnis, so they hear each other? mks: As I understand it, wds is simply a way for a cpe unit to ALSO act as an ap. Much like AdHoc mode. Except this time you can put in WDS units only where needed so that you can go around a corner or two. With AdHoc the whole network would have to be that way. My confusion is how WDS/WDS works compared to Station/AP modes. Example application: Using 802.11a gear. 5 seperate MTU buildings, spread out within 300 yards of each other. 1 is a Master AP Site, with an Omni, and a second backhaul radio to the Internet. 4 of the 5 have a direction CPE style antenna pointing to the Master Antenna. WDS is used to allow the radios to operate as true transparent bridges, and to pass per client (5-10 clients per MTU) large packet VLAN traffic. (Note: There is a reason we did not select Nstreme w/ Polling. It may have been an incompatibilty with WDS or inabilty to do transparent bridging with large packets, which standard 802.11 station mode does not support under protocol. May have been early version of Firmware, not sure if still an issue) Why I
Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber revisited
It doesn;t really matter, because the Proxim GB 60Ghz PTP radio is a nice radio, and not likely to get discontinued who ever ends up owning the change ownership happy Proxim. The bigger question is wether 60Ghz will meet your need. The real excitement is in the 70 Ghz and 80Ghz bands, that have longer distances applicable for WISPs. What will be most existing is when 70-80Ghz gear is down to Proxim 60Ghz price. I really see no reason a 70-80Ghz radio needs to be any more costly than the 60Ghz ones. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mario Pommier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 4:26 PM Subject: [WISPA] wireless fiber revisited Hi, Several weeks ago I posted BridgeWave and GigaBeam prices and quick features of wireless Gbps gear. Has anyone tried or know about this option: -- Proxim Gigalink 6451e- 60Ghz; unlicensed; $10,500 complete link; ? 5-year hardware warranty; 1Gbps Pricing is attractive, isn't it (specially when customer's budget is very constrained)? But is Proxim a reliable company at this point? Thanks. Mario Previous options posted: -- BridgeWave - 60Ghz; unlicensed; $25,000 complete link; ~$6,000 5-year hardware warranty; 1Gbps -- GigaBeam - 70/80Ghz; licensed; $37,000 complete link (includes $1,000 10-year license); $0.00 5-year hardware warranty; 2.7Gbps release by Dec. 2006. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.0/465 - Release Date: 10/6/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WDS PtMP
To be clear, Mikrotik us being used, and the 4 remote building are in wds station mode and only configured to talk to the 1 central master WDS AP, the four client WDS radios are not configured to talk to each other. So all the CPE radios only have one hop to the APconnected to the Internet backhaul. My theory for design was... I had a 10 mbps backhaul. The WDS PtMP would have 16mbps (54 mbps modulation), to help with waste from re-transmissions. All clients are bandwidth managed (priority weighted method) centrally on other end of backhaul, to also assist with fair transmission time. Also radios use CDMA/CA, with the CA also assisting. The question is, is this enough to let it work well with only four buildings. I'm starting to think that it might not be. But the problem shouldn't be that they hear each other. we want them to hear each other, so they don't transmit at the same time. Thats what 802.11 needs. Hidden node happens because CPEs don't hear each other, and don;t know someone else is transmitting, from my understanding. Part of my question is, Does WDS work differently when in Mikrotik Station WDS mode than a normal WDS AP? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Anthony Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WDS PtMP It would seem to me that as your load increased your WDS/APs are transmitting over each other as clients are trying to transmit to the central AP. client --WDS/AP transmitting carrier beacons or other data to client and passing onto to --WDS/AP--WDS/AP--Client (transmitting to local AP) In this scenario you have the two clients talking and one AP all trying to talk at the same time and thus raising your noise floor because they are all on the same channel. There is not a feature in standard WDS to coordinate who can talk and who can not talk other then the standard CDMA layer of the 802.11 protocol. This will create issues as the more load you have on this setup the more self interference and retransmissions you will incur. The big thing the mesh brings to the table is the ability to help coordinate all of this traffic so that you can utilize the spectrum more efficiently. At least that is my opinion as soon as someone actually does it. You likely are going to have to switch to a station /AP solution for this setup because everything is to close and can hear each other. This will destroy your bridge setup unless you change to a propitiatory system such as Trango, Canopy, etc. One other thing to note is that this is all half duplex so you might have two many hops and thus running out of bandwidth. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Tom DeReggi wrote: Background In standard WIFI, a principle exists called hidden note, where two CPEs transmit at the same time and colide because they do not hear each other. There are three ways to get around that, using WIFI between Client and AP. 1) Polling (Karlnet, Nstream, Proprietary), 2) Use Omnis, so radios can hear each other if in close proximity, 3) RTS/CTS which effectively solves the problem at a significant performance degregation. A well know problem with well known solutions. Issue. How does this play our with WDS? AP to AP communication. Sure in PtP its a non-issue, because there are only two radios involved to complete the link. But WDS allows PtMP operation. How does WDS commuication work? Does the Hidden Node problem exist with PtMP WDS? And if so, is there a way to address it? If so, will it help to make the CPE's Omnis, so they hear each other? My confusion is how WDS/WDS works compared to Station/AP modes. Example application: Using 802.11a gear. 5 seperate MTU buildings, spread out within 300 yards of each other. 1 is a Master AP Site, with an Omni, and a second backhaul radio to the Internet. 4 of the 5 have a direction CPE style antenna pointing to the Master Antenna. WDS is used to allow the radios to operate as true transparent bridges, and to pass per client (5-10 clients per MTU) large packet VLAN traffic. (Note: There is a reason we did not select Nstreme w/ Polling. It may have been an incompatibilty with WDS or inabilty to do transparent bridging with large packets, which standard 802.11 station mode does not support under protocol. May have been early version of Firmware, not sure if still an issue) Why I thought it might be an issue: Surveys show low noise. However, as more clients have been taken on (2 mbps average sustained throughput all combined), the Link quality started to degregate as if the noise floor was rising. As a tempoirary measure, we switched to 5.2Ghz (indoor only FREQ, which appeared not to have any detectable noise in standard 802.11 based survey tools, and was chosen because non-detectable carrier grade gear would not use those channels). Its hard to believe
Re: [WISPA] lightning
Contrary to popular belief, lightning likes to follow the path of least inductance. Inductance is the resistance to a change in current flow. All I can say is that they have worked for me. On 10/7/06, Dylan Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/7/06, Jenco Wireless [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://pdfcatalog.digikey.com/T063/1150.pdf#search=%22digikey%20240-2318-nd%22 I use the 240-2318-ND (towards the bottom of the page). Just wrap the Ethernet cable through it as many times as possible. You have to purchase 100 to get that low, low price I mentioned :-). We are located in Ohio. Sounds like this is more for reducing EMI .. how do you figure it protects from lightning damage?Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC --WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WDS PtMP
every single packet transmitted is going to be retransmitted on all the WDS/AP connected together on the wireless side. Is that really true, in this type of configuration, Mikrotik 4 stationsWDS, 1 AP WDS? I'm not sure that these units re-transmit the data. Remember their is no data that needs to pass between the 4 remote client buildings. Also remember that none of the subscribers are using wireless, they are all using wired connection, only the 4 MTU building roofs have a station WDS radio. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Anthony Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WDS PtMP On thing I forgot to mention is that every single packet transmitted is going to be retransmitted on all the WDS/AP connected together on the wireless side. With sustained traffic that would mean that all of them are transmitting and receiving the 2 megs mentioned. And we can assume that these units are not exactly all the same distance or under the same exact load so there will be very tiny differences when each unit will be retransmitting that 2 meg of traffic. I am not real happy with the way I explained this let me know if it makes any sense :) Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Anthony Will wrote: It would seem to me that as your load increased your WDS/APs are transmitting over each other as clients are trying to transmit to the central AP. client --WDS/AP transmitting carrier beacons or other data to client and passing onto to --WDS/AP--WDS/AP--Client (transmitting to local AP) In this scenario you have the two clients talking and one AP all trying to talk at the same time and thus raising your noise floor because they are all on the same channel. There is not a feature in standard WDS to coordinate who can talk and who can not talk other then the standard CDMA layer of the 802.11 protocol. This will create issues as the more load you have on this setup the more self interference and retransmissions you will incur. The big thing the mesh brings to the table is the ability to help coordinate all of this traffic so that you can utilize the spectrum more efficiently. At least that is my opinion as soon as someone actually does it. You likely are going to have to switch to a station /AP solution for this setup because everything is to close and can hear each other. This will destroy your bridge setup unless you change to a propitiatory system such as Trango, Canopy, etc. One other thing to note is that this is all half duplex so you might have two many hops and thus running out of bandwidth. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Tom DeReggi wrote: Background In standard WIFI, a principle exists called hidden note, where two CPEs transmit at the same time and colide because they do not hear each other. There are three ways to get around that, using WIFI between Client and AP. 1) Polling (Karlnet, Nstream, Proprietary), 2) Use Omnis, so radios can hear each other if in close proximity, 3) RTS/CTS which effectively solves the problem at a significant performance degregation. A well know problem with well known solutions. Issue. How does this play our with WDS? AP to AP communication. Sure in PtP its a non-issue, because there are only two radios involved to complete the link. But WDS allows PtMP operation. How does WDS commuication work? Does the Hidden Node problem exist with PtMP WDS? And if so, is there a way to address it? If so, will it help to make the CPE's Omnis, so they hear each other? My confusion is how WDS/WDS works compared to Station/AP modes. Example application: Using 802.11a gear. 5 seperate MTU buildings, spread out within 300 yards of each other. 1 is a Master AP Site, with an Omni, and a second backhaul radio to the Internet. 4 of the 5 have a direction CPE style antenna pointing to the Master Antenna. WDS is used to allow the radios to operate as true transparent bridges, and to pass per client (5-10 clients per MTU) large packet VLAN traffic. (Note: There is a reason we did not select Nstreme w/ Polling. It may have been an incompatibilty with WDS or inabilty to do transparent bridging with large packets, which standard 802.11 station mode does not support under protocol. May have been early version of Firmware, not sure if still an issue) Why I thought it might be an issue: Surveys show low noise. However, as more clients have been taken on (2 mbps average sustained throughput all combined), the Link quality started to degregate as if the noise floor was rising. As a tempoirary measure, we switched to 5.2Ghz (indoor only FREQ, which appeared not to have any detectable noise in standard 802.11 based survey tools, and was chosen because non-detectable carrier grade gear would not use those channels). Its hard to believe that the noise floor would be that high using
Re: [WISPA] WDS PtMP
To be clear... Client1 -wire---\ ___ WDS Station --RF\ Client2 -wire---/\_ WDS AP --wire--Backhaul to Internet / Client3 -wire---\ ___ WDS Station --RF---/ Client4 -wire---/ Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Anthony Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WDS PtMP On thing I forgot to mention is that every single packet transmitted is going to be retransmitted on all the WDS/AP connected together on the wireless side. With sustained traffic that would mean that all of them are transmitting and receiving the 2 megs mentioned. And we can assume that these units are not exactly all the same distance or under the same exact load so there will be very tiny differences when each unit will be retransmitting that 2 meg of traffic. I am not real happy with the way I explained this let me know if it makes any sense :) Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Anthony Will wrote: It would seem to me that as your load increased your WDS/APs are transmitting over each other as clients are trying to transmit to the central AP. client --WDS/AP transmitting carrier beacons or other data to client and passing onto to --WDS/AP--WDS/AP--Client (transmitting to local AP) In this scenario you have the two clients talking and one AP all trying to talk at the same time and thus raising your noise floor because they are all on the same channel. There is not a feature in standard WDS to coordinate who can talk and who can not talk other then the standard CDMA layer of the 802.11 protocol. This will create issues as the more load you have on this setup the more self interference and retransmissions you will incur. The big thing the mesh brings to the table is the ability to help coordinate all of this traffic so that you can utilize the spectrum more efficiently. At least that is my opinion as soon as someone actually does it. You likely are going to have to switch to a station /AP solution for this setup because everything is to close and can hear each other. This will destroy your bridge setup unless you change to a propitiatory system such as Trango, Canopy, etc. One other thing to note is that this is all half duplex so you might have two many hops and thus running out of bandwidth. Anthony Will Broadband Corp. Tom DeReggi wrote: Background In standard WIFI, a principle exists called hidden note, where two CPEs transmit at the same time and colide because they do not hear each other. There are three ways to get around that, using WIFI between Client and AP. 1) Polling (Karlnet, Nstream, Proprietary), 2) Use Omnis, so radios can hear each other if in close proximity, 3) RTS/CTS which effectively solves the problem at a significant performance degregation. A well know problem with well known solutions. Issue. How does this play our with WDS? AP to AP communication. Sure in PtP its a non-issue, because there are only two radios involved to complete the link. But WDS allows PtMP operation. How does WDS commuication work? Does the Hidden Node problem exist with PtMP WDS? And if so, is there a way to address it? If so, will it help to make the CPE's Omnis, so they hear each other? My confusion is how WDS/WDS works compared to Station/AP modes. Example application: Using 802.11a gear. 5 seperate MTU buildings, spread out within 300 yards of each other. 1 is a Master AP Site, with an Omni, and a second backhaul radio to the Internet. 4 of the 5 have a direction CPE style antenna pointing to the Master Antenna. WDS is used to allow the radios to operate as true transparent bridges, and to pass per client (5-10 clients per MTU) large packet VLAN traffic. (Note: There is a reason we did not select Nstreme w/ Polling. It may have been an incompatibilty with WDS or inabilty to do transparent bridging with large packets, which standard 802.11 station mode does not support under protocol. May have been early version of Firmware, not sure if still an issue) Why I thought it might be an issue: Surveys show low noise. However, as more clients have been taken on (2 mbps average sustained throughput all combined), the Link quality started to degregate as if the noise floor was rising. As a tempoirary measure, we switched to 5.2Ghz (indoor only FREQ, which appeared not to have any detectable noise in standard 802.11 based survey tools, and was chosen because non-detectable carrier grade gear would not use those channels). Its hard to believe that the noise floor would be that high using that freq. So I'm wondering if the noise that I'm hearing is actually my own CPEs within this project? The symptom was sparatic higher latency, what typically would happen if 802.11a had frequent
Re: [WISPA] Crown Castle / Global signal
Exactly. Crown is a nightmare if you are not a carrier, and they are doing the assimiliation. Smaller tower owners will continue to cater to the smaller companies, the WISPS, and continue to gain their business. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Crown Castle / Global signal How do you figure? Crown Castle is a nightmare to work with, and Global Signal has worked well with WISPS. I hope Crown Castle takes Global Signal's good sense with the purchase. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Crown Castle / Global signal
It seems we (people on this list) are always easily dismissed by large tower owners. These dismissals are often in the form of here, pay this $! fee up front to deal with us or who are you again? or my favorite and one that was told to me by an American Tower Rep: we don't deal with WISPs unless they are named Clearwire. Is WISPA (or Part-15 for that matter) doing anything to negotiate standard or discount leases with these tower owners? I am not a member of either organization but this sort of thing would definitely make me want to join up in a hurry. I also think that if tower owners were faced with an organized group of people they might cut though some of the BS we face when working out leases. Just a suggestion, ryan On Oct 7, 2006, at 9:06 PM, Blake Bowers wrote: Exactly. Crown is a nightmare if you are not a carrier, and they are doing the assimiliation. Smaller tower owners will continue to cater to the smaller companies, the WISPS, and continue to gain their business. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Crown Castle / Global signal How do you figure? Crown Castle is a nightmare to work with, and Global Signal has worked well with WISPS. I hope Crown Castle takes Global Signal's good sense with the purchase. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Crown Castle / Global signal
Hi, The problem is that cell carriers (at least in my area) pay $500 - $2,000 per month to be on a tower... the same towers that I pay $100 - $250 per month. If you owned the towers, which customer would _you_ rather have? :( Travis Microserv D. Ryan Spott wrote: It seems we (people on this list) are always easily dismissed by large tower owners. These dismissals are often in the form of here, pay this $! fee up front to deal with us or who are you again? or my favorite and one that was told to me by an American Tower Rep: we don't deal with WISPs unless they are named Clearwire. Is WISPA (or Part-15 for that matter) doing anything to negotiate standard or discount leases with these tower owners? I am not a member of either organization but this sort of thing would definitely make me want to join up in a hurry. I also think that if tower owners were faced with an organized group of people they might cut though some of the BS we face when working out leases. Just a suggestion, ryan On Oct 7, 2006, at 9:06 PM, Blake Bowers wrote: Exactly. Crown is a nightmare if you are not a carrier, and they are doing the assimiliation. Smaller tower owners will continue to cater to the smaller companies, the WISPS, and continue to gain their business. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Crown Castle / Global signal How do you figure? Crown Castle is a nightmare to work with, and Global Signal has worked well with WISPS. I hope Crown Castle takes Global Signal's good sense with the purchase. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Independent Towers
The conglomerate tower owners know that there are only so many broadband (cellular) carriers to go around. The prices will drop for the WISPs as soon as the broadband business runs out! Cellular buildout cannot go on forever. There are plenty of independent tower owners who will welcome the WISP as a tenant and not rip him off. Of course as both a WISP and a tower owner, let me say that not all WISPs I know of pay their bills on time (or at all). If you need space in Dalton GA, Chatsworth GA, Calhoun GA, Rome GA, Marietta GA, Atlanta GA, Cartersville GA, or Ellijay GA just give a holler- I can hook you up on one of my towers or those of a few other independent owners. We are not ALL jerks to deal with (but if you don't pay, we will unplug your gear)! Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 9:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Crown Castle / Global signal Hi, The problem is that cell carriers (at least in my area) pay $500 - $2,000 per month to be on a tower... the same towers that I pay $100 - $250 per month. If you owned the towers, which customer would _you_ rather have? :( Travis Microserv D. Ryan Spott wrote: It seems we (people on this list) are always easily dismissed by large tower owners. These dismissals are often in the form of here, pay this $! fee up front to deal with us or who are you again? or my favorite and one that was told to me by an American Tower Rep: we don't deal with WISPs unless they are named Clearwire. Is WISPA (or Part-15 for that matter) doing anything to negotiate standard or discount leases with these tower owners? I am not a member of either organization but this sort of thing would definitely make me want to join up in a hurry. I also think that if tower owners were faced with an organized group of people they might cut though some of the BS we face when working out leases. Just a suggestion, ryan On Oct 7, 2006, at 9:06 PM, Blake Bowers wrote: Exactly. Crown is a nightmare if you are not a carrier, and they are doing the assimiliation. Smaller tower owners will continue to cater to the smaller companies, the WISPS, and continue to gain their business. - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Crown Castle / Global signal How do you figure? Crown Castle is a nightmare to work with, and Global Signal has worked well with WISPS. I hope Crown Castle takes Global Signal's good sense with the purchase. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Re: Crown Castle / Global signal
I can't even get a ballpark price on some of their towers. I would like to know if I am wasting my time (and theirs). I have 3 towers in mind I would like to get on of theirs. Justin -- Life is unfair, but root password Helps --- Justin S. Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] CCNA - A+ - CCNT - TAT - ACSA - MTIN.NET Wireless - WISP Consulting - Tower Climbing AOLIM: j2sw WEB: http://www.mtin.net Phone: 765.762.2851 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
