Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
Sorry for the late reply on this; sometimes life takes presedence :) Doug, you definitely hit a number of things on the head, there. There is a _definite_ need for some much more...shall we say, mature network platforms in the wireless industry, and then for that equipment to be available at affordable prices. Still, I don't necessarily agree with you (Doug) on the pricing. Good stuff like you're describing will never be cheap simply because there aren't enough units produced and sold to make it profitable at lower prices. Is it expensive? Yes. Still, do keep in mind that multi-tenant solutions in the non-wireless world are considerably considerably much more expensive that what you mentioned, not necessarily in terms of gear but definitely in terms of infrastructure (fiber or whatever). This is, btw, done again and again at very lucrative profit margins in aggregate...it would be worth your while to study your competition in the industry and see how they make money :). I wouldn't really expect for the price of such equipment to fall considerably, btw, simply because a large portion of the independent market often is price-conscious to a fault, meaning that too often, a lot of the providers out there deploy less-than ideal systems simply to save a few dollars. As a little inside/outside observation about the independent provider industry, the guys who tend to do better are the guys who, at least when it counts, will pay major money to get the right platform in place, and then sell the hell out of that platform. In a weird sort of way, I sometimes wonder if the ebay / jerry-rig approach that often goes on (which, is often quite technically sound) almost hurts simply because it allows service providers too often to deploy platforms that don't really have a critical mass. Sometime, if you're up for either some humor or hurting (depending on where you're standing), talk to Peter (rad-info Peter) about cost and pricing and profit in the industry. He's got a lot of good insight on the busness operations side of service providers about all the stupid ways that independents often do very bad calculations in their business planning (for example, forget to figure that it costs you money to bill and invoice). The same thing goes into the technical platforms as well. A lot of you guys tend to fixate on the cost of the routers or APs or whatever (ie central networking equipment). If you do a total cost of ownership to your platforms, it often becomes clearer why doubling the cost of your router doesn't really raise your costs all that much and often provides much better value. Anyway, back to my point, whatever that was :). Definitely more mature platforms will have to come in the wireless industry. As a general observation, the biggest difference between the wireline service provider gear and the wireless industry stuff is 1. bandwidth to some degree 2. lack of mature provisioning systems and mechanisms. The wireless industry is still very focused on the connection rather than a service. (for those who haven't really dealt with the other) Provisioning by the service means that you provision services on your platform. Your platform tracks usage, capacity, and so forth, and gives you the ability to provision a service that has some guarantee of bandwidth on an end-to-end basis. For the most part, the wireless industry still operates a little too heavily as just a series of dumb pipes (wireles or not) without no non-overly-cumbersome methods of provisioning across the infrastructure including various classes of services across the infrasrtucture as well. As a result, WISPs networks tend to be an entirely best effort approach end to end. Anyway, just some thoughts and ramblings. Back to other stuff for now... -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technologies On 6/18/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For Last Mile- FreeSpace Optics can be had now up to 1/2 mile for as low as $5K. GB manufacturers are going to realize soon, the day of the huge profit margin will be a thing of the past. The competition is here on all fronts. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Yep, I just did a 100meg FSO link and it was around $5k for the link. I wuld have preffered to do fiber and I'm sure it would have been not much more, but the beaurocracy to get where I needed to go was slow moving. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
And would it have an ROI measured in 10+ years... Not if you got an anchor tenant at each POP/MTU to cover the lease payment. This is a Finance problem, not a ROI problem. Financiers are still afraid to lend money for high dollar technology in an industry of falling prices. Each pair costs $20k+, and I know manufacturers are holding back on lowering the price because they know how much actual fiber costs to bury 1 mile and the time it actually takes They (GB manufacturers) better not wait to long, to lower prices, or they are going to miss the market opportunity window. For backhaul- The big advantage to WISPs with 60-80Ghz was time to market advantage. Thats disappearing quick, with low cost Licensed gear here now. When a WISP can put up 300-600mbps licensed, going much much further distances, in a MESH design, it starts to become a much better value proposition (with higher network-wide aggregate throughput) than GB wireless in a BUS/RING design. For Last Mile- FreeSpace Optics can be had now up to 1/2 mile for as low as $5K. GB manufacturers are going to realize soon, the day of the huge profit margin will be a thing of the past. The competition is here on all fronts. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Doug Ratcliffe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 8:01 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Copper Plant I think what we're going to need to see in the wireless industry, very soon, is affordable medium range (1.5 miles or less) gigabit speed backhauls. I feel that in an urban environment (city, etc) that we could build SONET-style wireless gigabit rings around these areas. FSO / 60ghz type equipment, very little interference, etc. But the problem with this is - to put a pair of these units up at the average multi-story building is not effective cost-wise. Each pair costs $20k+, and I know manufacturers are holding back on lowering the price because they know how much actual fiber costs to bury 1 mile and the time it actually takes. I have enough high-rise customers I could build a backhaul ring network in my area, and offer unbelievable speeds. From those buildings, wireless pico-cells could offer Wi-Max speeds to 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile. Or secondary slower FSO links could be used for nearby customers. Unlicensed 2.4/5.8 backhauls could also be used from these points. But the cost would be astronomical right now. 10 or 20 of these units could easily cost more than a Ferrari. And would it have an ROI measured in 10+ years... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Clint Ricker Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 1:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant Not even close. The telco's aren't stupid enough to pay billions of dollars ($23 billion expected total cost for Verizon's FTTH project) simply to close off line sharing requirements. Total revenue for other providers of local service nationwide (not just Verizon territory) was a total of $22 billion last year. Peter, you may have more exact stats, this is pulling from the FCC Annual Telecommunications revenue report. Considering this includes a lot of stuff that doesn't fall under CLEC status, this isn't enough to really justify Verizon and ATT's move to fiber. I'm not arguing that line sharing isn't an annoyance. But, the reality is that it is simply an annoyance. Most of the players who really count in terms of major threats to revenue either are moving to fiber or fiber/coax hybrid because we are no longer in the 1990s. 5Mb/s was great technology in 1998. We are in 2007, and by the end of the decade most of the major cable companies will be pushing DOCSIS 3 with 50-100Mb/s (with much higher theoretical capacity). The telcos have their backs up against the wall in a lot of respects. The cable companies are rolling out voice, which is a piece of cake these days (well, compared to the challenge of deploying video services, voice is a piece of cake) and are getting their act together in a big way about going after the business market. The telcos are on an old copper network which simply can't handle much data (max even for the next generation is ADSL2 is 25Mb/s down, 5 up +-). The simple reality is that copper pairs can't handle much data. The cable companies don't really have that liability--a coax plant can push about 50Gb/s (albeit broadcast rather than point to point) for residential and are doing metro-ethernet stuff as well on the business side. Smart CLECs that target business customers are dropping fiber into multi-tenant buildings and grabbing up lucritive business customers that way. Sticking with copper simply means that the telco's don't have the technical basis to compete. Plain and simple. The market is evolving. Sure, telcos don't like line sharing. However
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
For Last Mile- FreeSpace Optics can be had now up to 1/2 mile for as low as $5K. GB manufacturers are going to realize soon, the day of the huge profit margin will be a thing of the past. The competition is here on all fronts. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Yep, I just did a 100meg FSO link and it was around $5k for the link. I wuld have preffered to do fiber and I'm sure it would have been not much more, but the beaurocracy to get where I needed to go was slow moving. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
Not even close. The telco's aren't stupid enough to pay billions of dollars ($23 billion expected total cost for Verizon's FTTH project) simply to close off line sharing requirements. Total revenue for other providers of local service nationwide (not just Verizon territory) was a total of $22 billion last year. Peter, you may have more exact stats, this is pulling from the FCC Annual Telecommunications revenue report. Considering this includes a lot of stuff that doesn't fall under CLEC status, this isn't enough to really justify Verizon and ATT's move to fiber. I'm not arguing that line sharing isn't an annoyance. But, the reality is that it is simply an annoyance. Most of the players who really count in terms of major threats to revenue either are moving to fiber or fiber/coax hybrid because we are no longer in the 1990s. 5Mb/s was great technology in 1998. We are in 2007, and by the end of the decade most of the major cable companies will be pushing DOCSIS 3 with 50-100Mb/s (with much higher theoretical capacity). The telcos have their backs up against the wall in a lot of respects. The cable companies are rolling out voice, which is a piece of cake these days (well, compared to the challenge of deploying video services, voice is a piece of cake) and are getting their act together in a big way about going after the business market. The telcos are on an old copper network which simply can't handle much data (max even for the next generation is ADSL2 is 25Mb/s down, 5 up +-). The simple reality is that copper pairs can't handle much data. The cable companies don't really have that liability--a coax plant can push about 50Gb/s (albeit broadcast rather than point to point) for residential and are doing metro-ethernet stuff as well on the business side. Smart CLECs that target business customers are dropping fiber into multi-tenant buildings and grabbing up lucritive business customers that way. Sticking with copper simply means that the telco's don't have the technical basis to compete. Plain and simple. The market is evolving. Sure, telcos don't like line sharing. However, CLECs buying what is/will be legacy connections (T1s, POTS, etc...) are the least of the ILECs worries these days. They are rolling out fiber because the technology is advancing to the point that it is increasingly a necessitity to offer the services neccessary to gain and keep customers on that level. Now, that's only about 1/3 of the story :). My comments above are mainly centered around the urban markets. You could reasonably make the argument that the copper plant will be dead in major metropolitan areas by 2013, and I might even believe it (although I doubt it will be quite that quick from ATT side, but not too far off). Rural markets will remain on copper for a _long_ time. If I'm not mistaken, this is the market that most of you on the list (although not in terms of subscribers) operate in. Verizon is rolling out FTTH across its market, sure. Don't forget that Verizon also spun off much of its rural market for the simple reason that rural is less profitable and fiber is not really profitable for rural markets (for the major ILECs--there are some people out there making good money at fiber in rural areas). Many of these areas are still running copper between central offices, if that is any indication. In the end, I guess it doesn't really matter why the market is moving away from copper into fiber--it is (although not really in rural). Still, I think you're flattering yourself and the CLECs a little too much if you think that the ILECs are doing a multi-billion dollar fiber rollout simply to get rid of them... even if copper stayed around, the CLECs relying on it would obselete themselves about as quickly. -Clint Ricker Kentnis Technologies On 6/15/07, Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: correct George Rogato wrote: Isn't the reason they are replacing some of their copper with fiber is because they then do not have to allow competition to ride their wires? Old wires old rules, new fiber new rules? George Peter R. wrote: The ATT (originally SBC) VDSL plan requires copper to the home. Fiber to the neighborhood. In VZ region, they are pulling out copper as fast as they can replacing it with fiber. (FiOS is FTTH not FTTN). VZ even clips the copper when they install your FiOS. And what VZ isn't replacing, thieves are stealing, since copper is easy to sell. VZ's union is even claiming that VZ is not maintaining the copper plant in some areas. If you watch the FCC network notifications, there is more copper replacement being done this year then ever before. - Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
RE: [WISPA] Copper Plant
I think what we're going to need to see in the wireless industry, very soon, is affordable medium range (1.5 miles or less) gigabit speed backhauls. I feel that in an urban environment (city, etc) that we could build SONET-style wireless gigabit rings around these areas. FSO / 60ghz type equipment, very little interference, etc. But the problem with this is - to put a pair of these units up at the average multi-story building is not effective cost-wise. Each pair costs $20k+, and I know manufacturers are holding back on lowering the price because they know how much actual fiber costs to bury 1 mile and the time it actually takes. I have enough high-rise customers I could build a backhaul ring network in my area, and offer unbelievable speeds. From those buildings, wireless pico-cells could offer Wi-Max speeds to 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile. Or secondary slower FSO links could be used for nearby customers. Unlicensed 2.4/5.8 backhauls could also be used from these points. But the cost would be astronomical right now. 10 or 20 of these units could easily cost more than a Ferrari. And would it have an ROI measured in 10+ years... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Clint Ricker Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 1:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant Not even close. The telco's aren't stupid enough to pay billions of dollars ($23 billion expected total cost for Verizon's FTTH project) simply to close off line sharing requirements. Total revenue for other providers of local service nationwide (not just Verizon territory) was a total of $22 billion last year. Peter, you may have more exact stats, this is pulling from the FCC Annual Telecommunications revenue report. Considering this includes a lot of stuff that doesn't fall under CLEC status, this isn't enough to really justify Verizon and ATT's move to fiber. I'm not arguing that line sharing isn't an annoyance. But, the reality is that it is simply an annoyance. Most of the players who really count in terms of major threats to revenue either are moving to fiber or fiber/coax hybrid because we are no longer in the 1990s. 5Mb/s was great technology in 1998. We are in 2007, and by the end of the decade most of the major cable companies will be pushing DOCSIS 3 with 50-100Mb/s (with much higher theoretical capacity). The telcos have their backs up against the wall in a lot of respects. The cable companies are rolling out voice, which is a piece of cake these days (well, compared to the challenge of deploying video services, voice is a piece of cake) and are getting their act together in a big way about going after the business market. The telcos are on an old copper network which simply can't handle much data (max even for the next generation is ADSL2 is 25Mb/s down, 5 up +-). The simple reality is that copper pairs can't handle much data. The cable companies don't really have that liability--a coax plant can push about 50Gb/s (albeit broadcast rather than point to point) for residential and are doing metro-ethernet stuff as well on the business side. Smart CLECs that target business customers are dropping fiber into multi-tenant buildings and grabbing up lucritive business customers that way. Sticking with copper simply means that the telco's don't have the technical basis to compete. Plain and simple. The market is evolving. Sure, telcos don't like line sharing. However, CLECs buying what is/will be legacy connections (T1s, POTS, etc...) are the least of the ILECs worries these days. They are rolling out fiber because the technology is advancing to the point that it is increasingly a necessitity to offer the services neccessary to gain and keep customers on that level. Now, that's only about 1/3 of the story :). My comments above are mainly centered around the urban markets. You could reasonably make the argument that the copper plant will be dead in major metropolitan areas by 2013, and I might even believe it (although I doubt it will be quite that quick from ATT side, but not too far off). Rural markets will remain on copper for a _long_ time. If I'm not mistaken, this is the market that most of you on the list (although not in terms of subscribers) operate in. Verizon is rolling out FTTH across its market, sure. Don't forget that Verizon also spun off much of its rural market for the simple reason that rural is less profitable and fiber is not really profitable for rural markets (for the major ILECs--there are some people out there making good money at fiber in rural areas). Many of these areas are still running copper between central offices, if that is any indication. In the end, I guess it doesn't really matter why the market is moving away from copper into fiber--it is (although not really in rural). Still, I think you're flattering yourself and the CLECs a little too much if you think that the ILECs are doing a multi
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
These guys have the right idea... http://www.fiberinternetcenter.com/ John -Original Message- From: George Rogato [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 12:39 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant And this is why I planning a fiber roll out in my town. I can see the spectrum - bandwidth limitations of a pure wireless play and would like to be able to run with the big dogs When they start cranking up their stuff. George Mike Hammett wrote: BINGO! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant Isn't the reason they are replacing some of their copper with fiber is because they then do not have to allow competition to ride their wires? Old wires old rules, new fiber new rules? George Peter R. wrote: The ATT (originally SBC) VDSL plan requires copper to the home. Fiber to the neighborhood. In VZ region, they are pulling out copper as fast as they can replacing it with fiber. (FiOS is FTTH not FTTN). VZ even clips the copper when they install your FiOS. And what VZ isn't replacing, thieves are stealing, since copper is easy to sell. VZ's union is even claiming that VZ is not maintaining the copper plant in some areas. If you watch the FCC network notifications, there is more copper replacement being done this year then ever before. - Peter Steve Stroh wrote: Clint: No, not really, as ATT is betting on copper only in the last few hundred feet to the premises. While they're not going to do fiber-to-the-premises, they will be doing a fiber infrastructure. Thanks, Steve On 6/15/07, Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ATT is betting on copper for the next 5-10 years for the next 5-10 years. I think that, alone, about disbunks this article. -Clint -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Copper Plant
Last month, Tom Evslin, the co-founder of Internet service provider ATT Worldnet and voice-over-IP wholesaler ITXC, created quite a stir by making the bold prediction that the twisted copper pair to the home won't exist in 2013. By 2012 [there will be] no more reason to use our landlines--so we won't, Evslin wrote in his blog. I don't think the copper plant will last past 2012. The problem is the cost of maintaining and operating it when it has very few subscribers. Obviously [it's] a huge problem for ATT and Verizon. And an important social issue as well. Those comments provoked quite a reaction from readers, most of which were along the lines of, Wha-huh? Most people were eager to bet against Evslin's prediction. At the same time, his words echoed in my mind as I read recent complaints from the Communications Workers of America and the West Virginia Public Service Commission that Verizon Communications is neglecting its copper plant as it focuses on fiber-to-the-home deployment. The CWA told Virginia regulators that Verizon is foregoing preventative maintenance on much of the state's copper lines and ordering Band-Aid repairs for major problems. Verizon refutes that charge that copper has, in essence, become its redheaded stepchild. But those complaints highlight the way that copper becomes increasingly onerous for Verizon as its fiber network grows. Copper lines will require more care than passive optical networks and yield less revenue. In some cases, it might behoove Verizon for that copper to fail sooner rather than later to accelerate fiber migration. So I can't help but wonder if Verizon would bet against Evslin. Or on him. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
I am guessing this prediction has been made by most anyone I know who has been around for a while. I guess when someone important says it though then it is news. I remember many years ago when Steve Stroh told us that the phone companies as we know them and their copper plants were going to die. He said they would fall unless the government stepped in and saved them. Even then I had very little doubt that many people shared that feeling. If you look at what is happening to copper plant use the numbers lead to the same conclusions. People are migrating to other platforms for voice. They use mobile phones and VOIP more and more. I have not used a PSTN phone line now at home for over a year. I don't miss it a bit. Scriv Peter R. wrote: Last month, Tom Evslin, the co-founder of Internet service provider ATT Worldnet and voice-over-IP wholesaler ITXC, created quite a stir by making the bold prediction that the twisted copper pair to the home won't exist in 2013. By 2012 [there will be] no more reason to use our landlines--so we won't, Evslin wrote in his blog. I don't think the copper plant will last past 2012. The problem is the cost of maintaining and operating it when it has very few subscribers. Obviously [it's] a huge problem for ATT and Verizon. And an important social issue as well. Those comments provoked quite a reaction from readers, most of which were along the lines of, Wha-huh? Most people were eager to bet against Evslin's prediction. At the same time, his words echoed in my mind as I read recent complaints from the Communications Workers of America and the West Virginia Public Service Commission that Verizon Communications is neglecting its copper plant as it focuses on fiber-to-the-home deployment. The CWA told Virginia regulators that Verizon is foregoing preventative maintenance on much of the state's copper lines and ordering Band-Aid repairs for major problems. Verizon refutes that charge that copper has, in essence, become its redheaded stepchild. But those complaints highlight the way that copper becomes increasingly onerous for Verizon as its fiber network grows. Copper lines will require more care than passive optical networks and yield less revenue. In some cases, it might behoove Verizon for that copper to fail sooner rather than later to accelerate fiber migration. So I can't help but wonder if Verizon would bet against Evslin. Or on him. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
I was just thinking yesterday about a conversation I had with a telephone guy just after I took over the old winfinity.com isp-bbs. At that time ATT said they would be in every market, wirelesly. They would put a little antenna on the corner of every house Who is putting little antennas on the corners of houses today? :) George John Scrivner wrote: I am guessing this prediction has been made by most anyone I know who has been around for a while. I guess when someone important says it though then it is news. I remember many years ago when Steve Stroh told us that the phone companies as we know them and their copper plants were going to die. He said they would fall unless the government stepped in and saved them. Even then I had very little doubt that many people shared that feeling. If you look at what is happening to copper plant use the numbers lead to the same conclusions. People are migrating to other platforms for voice. They use mobile phones and VOIP more and more. I have not used a PSTN phone line now at home for over a year. I don't miss it a bit. Scriv Peter R. wrote: Last month, Tom Evslin, the co-founder of Internet service provider ATT Worldnet and voice-over-IP wholesaler ITXC, created quite a stir by making the bold prediction that the twisted copper pair to the home won't exist in 2013. By 2012 [there will be] no more reason to use our landlines--so we won't, Evslin wrote in his blog. I don't think the copper plant will last past 2012. The problem is the cost of maintaining and operating it when it has very few subscribers. Obviously [it's] a huge problem for ATT and Verizon. And an important social issue as well. Those comments provoked quite a reaction from readers, most of which were along the lines of, Wha-huh? Most people were eager to bet against Evslin's prediction. At the same time, his words echoed in my mind as I read recent complaints from the Communications Workers of America and the West Virginia Public Service Commission that Verizon Communications is neglecting its copper plant as it focuses on fiber-to-the-home deployment. The CWA told Virginia regulators that Verizon is foregoing preventative maintenance on much of the state's copper lines and ordering Band-Aid repairs for major problems. Verizon refutes that charge that copper has, in essence, become its redheaded stepchild. But those complaints highlight the way that copper becomes increasingly onerous for Verizon as its fiber network grows. Copper lines will require more care than passive optical networks and yield less revenue. In some cases, it might behoove Verizon for that copper to fail sooner rather than later to accelerate fiber migration. So I can't help but wonder if Verizon would bet against Evslin. Or on him. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
Clearwire isn't doing too bad :-) The antennas are built into the radios, which live inside. If you're in a fringe coverage area and are willing to pay for the installation, they do have a unit with a little antenna on the corner of the house. Thanks, Steve On 6/15/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was just thinking yesterday about a conversation I had with a telephone guy just after I took over the old winfinity.com isp-bbs. At that time ATT said they would be in every market, wirelesly. They would put a little antenna on the corner of every house Who is putting little antennas on the corners of houses today? :) George -- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Clearwire and external antennas WAS: [WISPA] Copper Plant
The reply we received from Clearwire is We are not doing external units anymore because they cause problems with performance at the AP's. We were very glad to hear that... Anyone else hear this or is it just maybe a local thing?? Tim Kerns CV-Access, Inc. - Original Message - From: Steve Stroh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant Clearwire isn't doing too bad :-) The antennas are built into the radios, which live inside. If you're in a fringe coverage area and are willing to pay for the installation, they do have a unit with a little antenna on the corner of the house. Thanks, Steve On 6/15/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was just thinking yesterday about a conversation I had with a telephone guy just after I took over the old winfinity.com isp-bbs. At that time ATT said they would be in every market, wirelesly. They would put a little antenna on the corner of every house Who is putting little antennas on the corners of houses today? :) George -- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
I agree! It's good to hear from you Steve!! :) jack Mac Dearman wrote: Good to see your posts on list Steve - - Glad you are doing better and will continue being with us a while longer!! :-) Mac Dearman Maximum Access, LLC. Rayville, La. www.inetsouth.com www.radioresponse.org (Katrina relief) www.mac-tel.us (VoIP sales) 318.728.8600 318.728.9600 318.303.4182 *-Original Message- *From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On *Behalf Of Steve Stroh *Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:55 AM *To: WISPA General List *Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant * *Clearwire isn't doing too bad :-) The antennas are built into the *radios, *which live inside. If you're in a fringe coverage area and are willing *to *pay for the installation, they do have a unit with a little antenna on *the *corner of the house. * * *Thanks, * *Steve * * * *On 6/15/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * * I was just thinking yesterday about a conversation I had with a * telephone guy just after I took over the old winfinity.com isp-bbs. * * At that time ATT said they would be in every market, wirelesly. They * would put a little antenna on the corner of every house * * * Who is putting little antennas on the corners of houses today? * * :) * * George * * *-- * *Steve Stroh *425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com *-- *WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org * *Subscribe/Unsubscribe: *http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless * *Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting FCC Part 15 Certification for Manufacturers and Service Providers Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
ATT is betting on copper for the next 5-10 years for the next 5-10 years. I think that, alone, about disbunks this article. -Clint On 6/15/07, Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Last month, Tom Evslin, the co-founder of Internet service provider ATT Worldnet and voice-over-IP wholesaler ITXC, created quite a stir by making the bold prediction that the twisted copper pair to the home won't exist in 2013. By 2012 [there will be] no more reason to use our landlines--so we won't, Evslin wrote in his blog. I don't think the copper plant will last past 2012. The problem is the cost of maintaining and operating it when it has very few subscribers. Obviously [it's] a huge problem for ATT and Verizon. And an important social issue as well. Those comments provoked quite a reaction from readers, most of which were along the lines of, Wha-huh? Most people were eager to bet against Evslin's prediction. At the same time, his words echoed in my mind as I read recent complaints from the Communications Workers of America and the West Virginia Public Service Commission that Verizon Communications is neglecting its copper plant as it focuses on fiber-to-the-home deployment. The CWA told Virginia regulators that Verizon is foregoing preventative maintenance on much of the state's copper lines and ordering Band-Aid repairs for major problems. Verizon refutes that charge that copper has, in essence, become its redheaded stepchild. But those complaints highlight the way that copper becomes increasingly onerous for Verizon as its fiber network grows. Copper lines will require more care than passive optical networks and yield less revenue. In some cases, it might behoove Verizon for that copper to fail sooner rather than later to accelerate fiber migration. So I can't help but wonder if Verizon would bet against Evslin. Or on him. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
Clint: No, not really, as ATT is betting on copper only in the last few hundred feet to the premises. While they're not going to do fiber-to-the-premises, they will be doing a fiber infrastructure. Thanks, Steve On 6/15/07, Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ATT is betting on copper for the next 5-10 years for the next 5-10 years. I think that, alone, about disbunks this article. -Clint -- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
The ATT (originally SBC) VDSL plan requires copper to the home. Fiber to the neighborhood. In VZ region, they are pulling out copper as fast as they can replacing it with fiber. (FiOS is FTTH not FTTN). VZ even clips the copper when they install your FiOS. And what VZ isn't replacing, thieves are stealing, since copper is easy to sell. VZ's union is even claiming that VZ is not maintaining the copper plant in some areas. If you watch the FCC network notifications, there is more copper replacement being done this year then ever before. - Peter Steve Stroh wrote: Clint: No, not really, as ATT is betting on copper only in the last few hundred feet to the premises. While they're not going to do fiber-to-the-premises, they will be doing a fiber infrastructure. Thanks, Steve On 6/15/07, Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ATT is betting on copper for the next 5-10 years for the next 5-10 years. I think that, alone, about disbunks this article. -Clint -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
Isn't the reason they are replacing some of their copper with fiber is because they then do not have to allow competition to ride their wires? Old wires old rules, new fiber new rules? George Peter R. wrote: The ATT (originally SBC) VDSL plan requires copper to the home. Fiber to the neighborhood. In VZ region, they are pulling out copper as fast as they can replacing it with fiber. (FiOS is FTTH not FTTN). VZ even clips the copper when they install your FiOS. And what VZ isn't replacing, thieves are stealing, since copper is easy to sell. VZ's union is even claiming that VZ is not maintaining the copper plant in some areas. If you watch the FCC network notifications, there is more copper replacement being done this year then ever before. - Peter Steve Stroh wrote: Clint: No, not really, as ATT is betting on copper only in the last few hundred feet to the premises. While they're not going to do fiber-to-the-premises, they will be doing a fiber infrastructure. Thanks, Steve On 6/15/07, Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ATT is betting on copper for the next 5-10 years for the next 5-10 years. I think that, alone, about disbunks this article. -Clint -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
correct George Rogato wrote: Isn't the reason they are replacing some of their copper with fiber is because they then do not have to allow competition to ride their wires? Old wires old rules, new fiber new rules? George Peter R. wrote: The ATT (originally SBC) VDSL plan requires copper to the home. Fiber to the neighborhood. In VZ region, they are pulling out copper as fast as they can replacing it with fiber. (FiOS is FTTH not FTTN). VZ even clips the copper when they install your FiOS. And what VZ isn't replacing, thieves are stealing, since copper is easy to sell. VZ's union is even claiming that VZ is not maintaining the copper plant in some areas. If you watch the FCC network notifications, there is more copper replacement being done this year then ever before. - Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: Clearwire and external antennas WAS: [WISPA] Copper Plant
I find that kinda odd... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Tim Kerns [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 10:59 AM Subject: Clearwire and external antennas WAS: [WISPA] Copper Plant The reply we received from Clearwire is We are not doing external units anymore because they cause problems with performance at the AP's. We were very glad to hear that... Anyone else hear this or is it just maybe a local thing?? Tim Kerns CV-Access, Inc. - Original Message - From: Steve Stroh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant Clearwire isn't doing too bad :-) The antennas are built into the radios, which live inside. If you're in a fringe coverage area and are willing to pay for the installation, they do have a unit with a little antenna on the corner of the house. Thanks, Steve On 6/15/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was just thinking yesterday about a conversation I had with a telephone guy just after I took over the old winfinity.com isp-bbs. At that time ATT said they would be in every market, wirelesly. They would put a little antenna on the corner of every house Who is putting little antennas on the corners of houses today? :) George -- Steve Stroh 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
BINGO! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant Isn't the reason they are replacing some of their copper with fiber is because they then do not have to allow competition to ride their wires? Old wires old rules, new fiber new rules? George Peter R. wrote: The ATT (originally SBC) VDSL plan requires copper to the home. Fiber to the neighborhood. In VZ region, they are pulling out copper as fast as they can replacing it with fiber. (FiOS is FTTH not FTTN). VZ even clips the copper when they install your FiOS. And what VZ isn't replacing, thieves are stealing, since copper is easy to sell. VZ's union is even claiming that VZ is not maintaining the copper plant in some areas. If you watch the FCC network notifications, there is more copper replacement being done this year then ever before. - Peter Steve Stroh wrote: Clint: No, not really, as ATT is betting on copper only in the last few hundred feet to the premises. While they're not going to do fiber-to-the-premises, they will be doing a fiber infrastructure. Thanks, Steve On 6/15/07, Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ATT is betting on copper for the next 5-10 years for the next 5-10 years. I think that, alone, about disbunks this article. -Clint -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
*NODS* I see fiber to business and industrial districts as well as fiber to towers. I see towers serving neighborhoods, not towns. Get those 60* sectors up in 5 gig and push some fiber to them! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant And this is why I planning a fiber roll out in my town. I can see the spectrum - bandwidth limitations of a pure wireless play and would like to be able to run with the big dogs When they start cranking up their stuff. George Mike Hammett wrote: BINGO! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant Isn't the reason they are replacing some of their copper with fiber is because they then do not have to allow competition to ride their wires? Old wires old rules, new fiber new rules? George Peter R. wrote: The ATT (originally SBC) VDSL plan requires copper to the home. Fiber to the neighborhood. In VZ region, they are pulling out copper as fast as they can replacing it with fiber. (FiOS is FTTH not FTTN). VZ even clips the copper when they install your FiOS. And what VZ isn't replacing, thieves are stealing, since copper is easy to sell. VZ's union is even claiming that VZ is not maintaining the copper plant in some areas. If you watch the FCC network notifications, there is more copper replacement being done this year then ever before. - Peter Steve Stroh wrote: Clint: No, not really, as ATT is betting on copper only in the last few hundred feet to the premises. While they're not going to do fiber-to-the-premises, they will be doing a fiber infrastructure. Thanks, Steve On 6/15/07, Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ATT is betting on copper for the next 5-10 years for the next 5-10 years. I think that, alone, about disbunks this article. -Clint -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant
oh, by 5 gig, I mean 5.25 - 5.725 (excluding a hole towards the bottom). Plenty of spectrum to use 60* sectors with downtilt set to a mile or two. Not only will you be listening to a smaller horizontal plane, but you're likely to not even see a tower 4 miles away. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant *NODS* I see fiber to business and industrial districts as well as fiber to towers. I see towers serving neighborhoods, not towns. Get those 60* sectors up in 5 gig and push some fiber to them! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant And this is why I planning a fiber roll out in my town. I can see the spectrum - bandwidth limitations of a pure wireless play and would like to be able to run with the big dogs When they start cranking up their stuff. George Mike Hammett wrote: BINGO! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant Isn't the reason they are replacing some of their copper with fiber is because they then do not have to allow competition to ride their wires? Old wires old rules, new fiber new rules? George Peter R. wrote: The ATT (originally SBC) VDSL plan requires copper to the home. Fiber to the neighborhood. In VZ region, they are pulling out copper as fast as they can replacing it with fiber. (FiOS is FTTH not FTTN). VZ even clips the copper when they install your FiOS. And what VZ isn't replacing, thieves are stealing, since copper is easy to sell. VZ's union is even claiming that VZ is not maintaining the copper plant in some areas. If you watch the FCC network notifications, there is more copper replacement being done this year then ever before. - Peter Steve Stroh wrote: Clint: No, not really, as ATT is betting on copper only in the last few hundred feet to the premises. While they're not going to do fiber-to-the-premises, they will be doing a fiber infrastructure. Thanks, Steve On 6/15/07, Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ATT is betting on copper for the next 5-10 years for the next 5-10 years. I think that, alone, about disbunks this article. -Clint -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Copper Plant
http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/27/technology/broadband_ruling/ Why be a telco and comply with all of those silly tariffs that make you share your infrastructure at wholesale rates when you can just be a broadband provider and be the only came in town... like the cable-cos! ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 12:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant BINGO! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Copper Plant Isn't the reason they are replacing some of their copper with fiber is because they then do not have to allow competition to ride their wires? Old wires old rules, new fiber new rules? George Peter R. wrote: The ATT (originally SBC) VDSL plan requires copper to the home. Fiber to the neighborhood. In VZ region, they are pulling out copper as fast as they can replacing it with fiber. (FiOS is FTTH not FTTN). VZ even clips the copper when they install your FiOS. And what VZ isn't replacing, thieves are stealing, since copper is easy to sell. VZ's union is even claiming that VZ is not maintaining the copper plant in some areas. If you watch the FCC network notifications, there is more copper replacement being done this year then ever before. - Peter Steve Stroh wrote: Clint: No, not really, as ATT is betting on copper only in the last few hundred feet to the premises. While they're not going to do fiber-to-the-premises, they will be doing a fiber infrastructure. Thanks, Steve On 6/15/07, Clint Ricker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ATT is betting on copper for the next 5-10 years for the next 5-10 years. I think that, alone, about disbunks this article. -Clint -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
