Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
If the 10 % didn't know what their usage patterns were I probably wouldn't implement this cap. I have a many that download between 3 - 10 GB per day. A couple that upload half that. One sells the blueray discs he burns at the local plant site where he works. He's at 10GB plus daily. Sure the I didn't know will come up and I'll deal with those, but I either unload the customers or make money servicing them. 60% don't go above 5 GB in month and another 20% never hit 10GB. It's the ones that regularly use 25-250 GB that I need to do something about. We put our cap at 50GB for basic charges. That covers all but 5% of my customers today. We will be notifying customers when they hit half their alloted bits in any given month. I don't expect 90% will ever see a notification. I don't necessarily agree with the premise that they don't know what's going on. A few sure. But what percentage of customer have leaky lines and get a big bill from the water company? And, because I see their traffic regularly, I will know who's got an issue and notify them. When was the last time a provider of any kind told you were going beyond your normal usage? Water, electric, cell, anyone? Dave Jonathan Schmidt wrote: With byte cap tiers (the majority of deployment plans outside of the US, by the way) the most likely leak are the youngsters on the home computer network. The solution to leak shock is communication...well before the limit is reached if it is climbing rapidly and at, for example, 75% and 100%. The same thing should hold true with cell phone SMS shock ...my good friend's teenage daughter engages in 3,000 to 4,000 text messages a month. They quickly switched to a plan that could economically support that. The communications on the cell phone was the next monthly bill but ISPs can communicate immediately to their subscribers in the event that a leak shock appears to be imminent. That can head off Larry's correct assertion that the customer will claim that the fault is elsewhere. . . . J o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Yunker Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 6:52 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality I got a water bill last month for $210 and wasn't angry. My bill the month before was only $30 dollars. I knew what 25,000 gallons of water to fill my pool was going to cost me. The problem with that analogy is two fold: (1) you can physically see 25,000 gallons of water that you intentionally put in your pool whereas you cannot see the 25Gigs of data that has been downloaded from your laptop when you download a P2P client and that client software automatically enables sharing. (2) you are presuming that someone INTENTIONALLY CAUSED THE INCREASED USAGE. My wife works for the local village and she frequently takes calls from local citizens who have complaints about their water bills. Most customers who call in to complain, have something broken that caused the excessive water charges. For instance, they might have a toilet that won't stop running. Similar circumstances occur in the internet world when a P2P program automatically shares data with the world OR when a virus evades your computer and spews volumes of data worthless data out to the net. Bottom line.. if you institute bit caps be ready for a barrage of excuses as to why it wasn't your customer's fault and why you need to reset the meter. - Larry -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1577 - Release Date: 7/28/2008 6:55 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
I stopped tracking individual use... But my average has remained the same since after my first year... 7 gigs per customer. Summer use is a little more, winter is less.I do keep track of the number of gigs. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: David Hulsebus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality If the 10 % didn't know what their usage patterns were I probably wouldn't implement this cap. I have a many that download between 3 - 10 GB per day. A couple that upload half that. One sells the blueray discs he burns at the local plant site where he works. He's at 10GB plus daily. Sure the I didn't know will come up and I'll deal with those, but I either unload the customers or make money servicing them. 60% don't go above 5 GB in month and another 20% never hit 10GB. It's the ones that regularly use 25-250 GB that I need to do something about. We put our cap at 50GB for basic charges. That covers all but 5% of my customers today. We will be notifying customers when they hit half their alloted bits in any given month. I don't expect 90% will ever see a notification. I don't necessarily agree with the premise that they don't know what's going on. A few sure. But what percentage of customer have leaky lines and get a big bill from the water company? And, because I see their traffic regularly, I will know who's got an issue and notify them. When was the last time a provider of any kind told you were going beyond your normal usage? Water, electric, cell, anyone? Dave Jonathan Schmidt wrote: With byte cap tiers (the majority of deployment plans outside of the US, by the way) the most likely leak are the youngsters on the home computer network. The solution to leak shock is communication...well before the limit is reached if it is climbing rapidly and at, for example, 75% and 100%. The same thing should hold true with cell phone SMS shock ...my good friend's teenage daughter engages in 3,000 to 4,000 text messages a month. They quickly switched to a plan that could economically support that. The communications on the cell phone was the next monthly bill but ISPs can communicate immediately to their subscribers in the event that a leak shock appears to be imminent. That can head off Larry's correct assertion that the customer will claim that the fault is elsewhere. . . . J o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Yunker Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 6:52 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality I got a water bill last month for $210 and wasn't angry. My bill the month before was only $30 dollars. I knew what 25,000 gallons of water to fill my pool was going to cost me. The problem with that analogy is two fold: (1) you can physically see 25,000 gallons of water that you intentionally put in your pool whereas you cannot see the 25Gigs of data that has been downloaded from your laptop when you download a P2P client and that client software automatically enables sharing. (2) you are presuming that someone INTENTIONALLY CAUSED THE INCREASED USAGE. My wife works for the local village and she frequently takes calls from local citizens who have complaints about their water bills. Most customers who call in to complain, have something broken that caused the excessive water charges. For instance, they might have a toilet that won't stop running. Similar circumstances occur in the internet world when a P2P program automatically shares data with the world OR when a virus evades your computer and spews volumes of data worthless data out to the net. Bottom line.. if you institute bit caps be ready for a barrage of excuses as to why it wasn't your customer's fault and why you need to reset the meter. - Larry -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1577 - Release Date: 7/28/2008 6:55 AM
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
Well, what you have to do is include a number of gigs that cover typical and slightly above typical usage. Structure it so only power users or P2P users would top that usage. For some new projects I'm working on, I'm considering a 50 gig package for $50/month. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality More on this...Many of us have not already implemented this because of our competition from cable and dsl. Same for me! I think the the FCC has finally provided ALL broadband providers a reason to implemente this(as we can't control traffic) although it will be a major blow to the U.S. broadband penetration. I know I have been waiting for it since 2002. Let the NEW games begin! Scott -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 10:04 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality Yet anither reason us (WISP) and all Cable and DSL(telcos) will go to a usage based systemno more all you can eat. I am not sure, but I bet they (FCC) have no control on us in that circumstance. Just my 1 pence. Scottie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Yunker Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality It looks like the FCC now has the votes necessary to sanction Comcast for its P2P throttling. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080725-hammer-drops-at-last-fcc-oppos es-comcast-p2p-throttling.html It's set to be vote on officially next Friday. This is a disturbing decision if it implies that ISPs will no longer be allowed to control P2P traffic flow originating from their own customers on their own networks. Regards, Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1575 - Release Date: 7/26/2008 4:18 PM --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1575 - Release Date: 7/26/2008 4:18 PM --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
Yet anither reason us (WISP) and all Cable and DSL(telcos) will go to a usage based systemno more all you can eat. I am not sure, but I bet they (FCC) have no control on us in that circumstance. I would have to disagree. It would appear that in this case, the FCC would be treating an internet provider similar to a cable-tv provider. I think that the FCC could rely on it's holding in Turner Broadcasting System v. FCC to support it's need to interfere with internet provider's freedom to contract. In Turner, the court held that it has an independent interest in preserving a multiplicity of broadcasters. It would seem that it is following that same tenor when it is forcing internet providers to allow equal footing for all services. I personally don't agree with this notion, I think that a greater harm will flow because the number of potential internet providers could be reduced from such drastic measures or in the alternative the cost of internet services could skyrocket due to bit-caps. Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
I definitely do not agree with what thay are doing to Comcast, except that Comcast right out lied about it. The FCC should not be allowed to tell me how I run my network. If they are going to do that, then they may as well make internet regulated and make internet tariff's. I think the FCC would LOVE to regulate the internet(which they already do in some respects), but Congress keeps shooting it down. If people do not like that I limit p2p, they do have another choice in another ISP, it is not like I am forcing something on them that they HAVE to take. The underlying problem I see with it is that p2p uses a ton of connections, which most wireless equipment does not handle well. Cable and DSL seem to not have as much of a problem with it except for the bandwidth usage it creates. If I am not allowed to control my network, then I see no other alternative but to go to a usage based model and I think cable and dsl will also. ATT has already sent emails to some of their customers saying they are going to that model and Time Warner is experimenting with that model in Texas. I am in a rural area and bandwidth is not cheap here. I pay over $400/meg. I have about %20 of my customers using the most bandwidth with bittorrents and gnutella. I do not block these, but I severly limit their transfer speeds and connections. If the FCC goes through with this, what next. They will telling me that I can't limit it here. The RIAA and MPAA would have a field day is this area. The people do not understand what they are doing is illegal...they think that if it is there then there is nothing wrong with getting it. From a business standpoint, I do not see why everyone is so against a usage based system? Scottie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Yunker Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 9:09 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality Yet anither reason us (WISP) and all Cable and DSL(telcos) will go to a usage based systemno more all you can eat. I am not sure, but I bet they (FCC) have no control on us in that circumstance. I would have to disagree. It would appear that in this case, the FCC would be treating an internet provider similar to a cable-tv provider. I think that the FCC could rely on it's holding in Turner Broadcasting System v. FCC to support it's need to interfere with internet provider's freedom to contract. In Turner, the court held that it has an independent interest in preserving a multiplicity of broadcasters. It would seem that it is following that same tenor when it is forcing internet providers to allow equal footing for all services. I personally don't agree with this notion, I think that a greater harm will flow because the number of potential internet providers could be reduced from such drastic measures or in the alternative the cost of internet services could skyrocket due to bit-caps. Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1575 - Release Date: 7/26/2008 4:18 PM --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
We have one very large customer that uses 60 gig per month. They pay the same price for that that they would for a t-1 in this area. $350 per month. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality Well, what you have to do is include a number of gigs that cover typical and slightly above typical usage. Structure it so only power users or P2P users would top that usage. For some new projects I'm working on, I'm considering a 50 gig package for $50/month. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality More on this...Many of us have not already implemented this because of our competition from cable and dsl. Same for me! I think the the FCC has finally provided ALL broadband providers a reason to implemente this(as we can't control traffic) although it will be a major blow to the U.S. broadband penetration. I know I have been waiting for it since 2002. Let the NEW games begin! Scott -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 10:04 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality Yet anither reason us (WISP) and all Cable and DSL(telcos) will go to a usage based systemno more all you can eat. I am not sure, but I bet they (FCC) have no control on us in that circumstance. Just my 1 pence. Scottie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Yunker Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality It looks like the FCC now has the votes necessary to sanction Comcast for its P2P throttling. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080725-hammer-drops-at-last-fcc-oppos es-comcast-p2p-throttling.html It's set to be vote on officially next Friday. This is a disturbing decision if it implies that ISPs will no longer be allowed to control P2P traffic flow originating from their own customers on their own networks. Regards, Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1575 - Release Date: 7/26/2008 4:18 PM --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1575 - Release Date: 7/26/2008 4:18 PM --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
usage based means tiers of prices... No matter what you tell people or how you warn them, if your bill this month is $100 and last month it was $25, they WILL BE ANGRY. Further, automating systems to bill per gig is kind of a pain. The answer, then, I guess is... convenience. insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 8:31 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality From a business standpoint, I do not see why everyone is so against a usage based system? Scottie WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
usage based means tiers of prices... No matter what you tell people or how you warn them, if your bill this month is $100 and last month it was $25, they WILL BE ANGRY. Further, automating systems to bill per gig is kind of a pain. The answer, then, I guess is... convenience. We were looking at throttling the over quotta users at peak times based on a 7-day window of usage. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
I got a water bill last month for $210 and wasn't angry. My bill the month before was only $30 dollars. I knew what 25,000 gallons of water to fill my pool was going to cost me. I have 60 customers that I loose money on every month. I can afford the implementation for what I will gain in revenue or gain back in profitability; so I'm moving in that direction. 70 % of my customers said they would prefer it. I expect that when it's implemented more like 90 % will like it and the other 10 % can pay for what they really want - 24 X 7 usage of large amounts of bandwidth or not. I either need to make money on the account or not have it. I'm not a charity and not subsidized to provide it at a loss. Dave Hulsebus Matt wrote: usage based means tiers of prices... No matter what you tell people or how you warn them, if your bill this month is $100 and last month it was $25, they WILL BE ANGRY. Further, automating systems to bill per gig is kind of a pain. The answer, then, I guess is... convenience. We were looking at throttling the over quotta users at peak times based on a 7-day window of usage. Matt No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1575 - Release Date: 7/26/2008 4:18 PM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
I got a water bill last month for $210 and wasn't angry. My bill the month before was only $30 dollars. I knew what 25,000 gallons of water to fill my pool was going to cost me. The problem with that analogy is two fold: (1) you can physically see 25,000 gallons of water that you intentionally put in your pool whereas you cannot see the 25Gigs of data that has been downloaded from your laptop when you download a P2P client and that client software automatically enables sharing. (2) you are presuming that someone INTENTIONALLY CAUSED THE INCREASED USAGE. My wife works for the local village and she frequently takes calls from local citizens who have complaints about their water bills. Most customers who call in to complain, have something broken that caused the excessive water charges. For instance, they might have a toilet that won't stop running. Similar circumstances occur in the internet world when a P2P program automatically shares data with the world OR when a virus evades your computer and spews volumes of data worthless data out to the net. Bottom line.. if you institute bit caps be ready for a barrage of excuses as to why it wasn't your customer's fault and why you need to reset the meter. - Larry WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
With byte cap tiers (the majority of deployment plans outside of the US, by the way) the most likely leak are the youngsters on the home computer network. The solution to leak shock is communication...well before the limit is reached if it is climbing rapidly and at, for example, 75% and 100%. The same thing should hold true with cell phone SMS shock ...my good friend's teenage daughter engages in 3,000 to 4,000 text messages a month. They quickly switched to a plan that could economically support that. The communications on the cell phone was the next monthly bill but ISPs can communicate immediately to their subscribers in the event that a leak shock appears to be imminent. That can head off Larry's correct assertion that the customer will claim that the fault is elsewhere. . . . J o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Yunker Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 6:52 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality I got a water bill last month for $210 and wasn't angry. My bill the month before was only $30 dollars. I knew what 25,000 gallons of water to fill my pool was going to cost me. The problem with that analogy is two fold: (1) you can physically see 25,000 gallons of water that you intentionally put in your pool whereas you cannot see the 25Gigs of data that has been downloaded from your laptop when you download a P2P client and that client software automatically enables sharing. (2) you are presuming that someone INTENTIONALLY CAUSED THE INCREASED USAGE. My wife works for the local village and she frequently takes calls from local citizens who have complaints about their water bills. Most customers who call in to complain, have something broken that caused the excessive water charges. For instance, they might have a toilet that won't stop running. Similar circumstances occur in the internet world when a P2P program automatically shares data with the world OR when a virus evades your computer and spews volumes of data worthless data out to the net. Bottom line.. if you institute bit caps be ready for a barrage of excuses as to why it wasn't your customer's fault and why you need to reset the meter. - Larry -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
Could have a program or site that shows current usage and encourage they monitor it... or email them an alert when it appears they'll pass their allowance. Maybe an ntop page that breaks down types of usage. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality I got a water bill last month for $210 and wasn't angry. My bill the month before was only $30 dollars. I knew what 25,000 gallons of water to fill my pool was going to cost me. The problem with that analogy is two fold: (1) you can physically see 25,000 gallons of water that you intentionally put in your pool whereas you cannot see the 25Gigs of data that has been downloaded from your laptop when you download a P2P client and that client software automatically enables sharing. (2) you are presuming that someone INTENTIONALLY CAUSED THE INCREASED USAGE. My wife works for the local village and she frequently takes calls from local citizens who have complaints about their water bills. Most customers who call in to complain, have something broken that caused the excessive water charges. For instance, they might have a toilet that won't stop running. Similar circumstances occur in the internet world when a P2P program automatically shares data with the world OR when a virus evades your computer and spews volumes of data worthless data out to the net. Bottom line.. if you institute bit caps be ready for a barrage of excuses as to why it wasn't your customer's fault and why you need to reset the meter. - Larry WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
The differences is... The consumer can see the pool full of water, as it fills. The consumer can't see the bit-torrent traffic as it fills their usage budget. Or for that matter, they can't see their bandwidth usage pool filling with any type of traffic. There is no perception of traffic size, when the content probvider has the freedom to deliver it in any capacity. a Bitmap can be 5mb or 5kb, the vioewer would never know the difference when they clicked the URL to get to the page. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David Hulsebus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality I got a water bill last month for $210 and wasn't angry. My bill the month before was only $30 dollars. I knew what 25,000 gallons of water to fill my pool was going to cost me. I have 60 customers that I loose money on every month. I can afford the implementation for what I will gain in revenue or gain back in profitability; so I'm moving in that direction. 70 % of my customers said they would prefer it. I expect that when it's implemented more like 90 % will like it and the other 10 % can pay for what they really want - 24 X 7 usage of large amounts of bandwidth or not. I either need to make money on the account or not have it. I'm not a charity and not subsidized to provide it at a loss. Dave Hulsebus Matt wrote: usage based means tiers of prices... No matter what you tell people or how you warn them, if your bill this month is $100 and last month it was $25, they WILL BE ANGRY. Further, automating systems to bill per gig is kind of a pain. The answer, then, I guess is... convenience. We were looking at throttling the over quotta users at peak times based on a 7-day window of usage. Matt No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1575 - Release Date: 7/26/2008 4:18 PM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
It looks like the FCC now has the votes necessary to sanction Comcast for its P2P throttling. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080725-hammer-drops-at-last-fcc-oppos es-comcast-p2p-throttling.html It's set to be vote on officially next Friday. This is a disturbing decision if it implies that ISPs will no longer be allowed to control P2P traffic flow originating from their own customers on their own networks. Regards, Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
Bow to the east each morning and recite... Oh great Father in Washington, thou knowest all, divinest all, we are unworthy to have thy great protection and wisdom... Or, we could start telling the FCC they're full of it... insert witty tagline here - Original Message - From: Larry Yunker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 9:36 AM Subject: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality It looks like the FCC now has the votes necessary to sanction Comcast for its P2P throttling. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080725-hammer-drops-at-last-fcc-oppos es-comcast-p2p-throttling.html It's set to be vote on officially next Friday. This is a disturbing decision if it implies that ISPs will no longer be allowed to control P2P traffic flow originating from their own customers on their own networks. Regards, Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
It's set to be vote on officially next Friday. This is a disturbing decision if it implies that ISPs will no longer be allowed to control P2P traffic flow originating from their own customers on their own networks. I agree. Will this also mean that we will no longer be allowed to block ports like 80 and 25? What about ports 135-139 which actually are blocked to prevent viruses and enhance security many times? What about web proxies? Very disturbing. Next they will ban bandwidth quottas. Just wait. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
I have said this over and over in various forums: Throttling/shaping on a per-application basis is not a good idea. Bandwidth caps and pay-per-bit are the correct way to handle bandwidth hogs. The FCC doesn't care how you limit, as long as you apply it equally to all bandwidth types. I believe the FCC's position is simple: If you are a internet provider, you have to carry all types of traffic indiscriminately. The FCC is *not* going to prevent blockage of ports and other limiting for legitimate network management reasons. Preventing the use of bandwidth hog applications to fix your broken price model and resulting inadequate network is not going to be considered a valid reason for blocking or limiting one service over another. Responding to a virus attack, or preventing spam or similar are valid reasons for performing at least temporary blocking. But if your blocking gets in the way of a legitimate application, you need to be prepared to resolve any issues that come up. All the FCC cares about is that the ISP's don't get to prevent a legitimate application from operating across their network. A good example would be the widespread port 25 blocking which occurs. It doesn't prevent legitimate mail from flowing (it is easy to configure around), but it does prevent spammers from using a network to spew mail out to the world. -forrest Larry Yunker wrote: It looks like the FCC now has the votes necessary to sanction Comcast for its P2P throttling. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080725-hammer-drops-at-last-fcc-oppos es-comcast-p2p-throttling.html It's set to be vote on officially next Friday. This is a disturbing decision if it implies that ISPs will no longer be allowed to control P2P traffic flow originating from their own customers on their own networks. Regards, Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
I don't think there is an issue if you fully disclose to your customer exactly what you are doing. If you tell the customer that you do your very best to kill or impair bittorrent then they have the choice of continuing with your or going somewhere else. Comcast originally got pinched for not telling folks. I hope that full disclosure allows us to content to do as we wish. - Original Message - From: Forrest W. Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality I have said this over and over in various forums: Throttling/shaping on a per-application basis is not a good idea. Bandwidth caps and pay-per-bit are the correct way to handle bandwidth hogs. The FCC doesn't care how you limit, as long as you apply it equally to all bandwidth types. I believe the FCC's position is simple: If you are a internet provider, you have to carry all types of traffic indiscriminately. The FCC is *not* going to prevent blockage of ports and other limiting for legitimate network management reasons. Preventing the use of bandwidth hog applications to fix your broken price model and resulting inadequate network is not going to be considered a valid reason for blocking or limiting one service over another. Responding to a virus attack, or preventing spam or similar are valid reasons for performing at least temporary blocking. But if your blocking gets in the way of a legitimate application, you need to be prepared to resolve any issues that come up. All the FCC cares about is that the ISP's don't get to prevent a legitimate application from operating across their network. A good example would be the widespread port 25 blocking which occurs. It doesn't prevent legitimate mail from flowing (it is easy to configure around), but it does prevent spammers from using a network to spew mail out to the world. -forrest Larry Yunker wrote: It looks like the FCC now has the votes necessary to sanction Comcast for its P2P throttling. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080725-hammer-drops-at-last-fcc-oppos es-comcast-p2p-throttling.html It's set to be vote on officially next Friday. This is a disturbing decision if it implies that ISPs will no longer be allowed to control P2P traffic flow originating from their own customers on their own networks. Regards, Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
This whole thing makes me wounder... What about when it is spelled out to the user before they sign up? I inform all users that we reserve the right to limit traffic, especially peer to peer traffic. I also tell them that we do not support or recommend VoIP services. They are welcome to try them, but our system was not designed for them and we will not promise if or how well they will work on our residential or light commercial circuits. This is not hidden in a page of fine print. It is spelled out, in person, before the install is done. Every user on my network was informed of this. What will it mean to me? we Forrest W. Christian wrote: I have said this over and over in various forums: Throttling/shaping on a per-application basis is not a good idea. Bandwidth caps and pay-per-bit are the correct way to handle bandwidth hogs. The FCC doesn't care how you limit, as long as you apply it equally to all bandwidth types. I believe the FCC's position is simple: If you are a internet provider, you have to carry all types of traffic indiscriminately. The FCC is *not* going to prevent blockage of ports and other limiting for legitimate network management reasons. Preventing the use of "bandwidth hog" applications to fix your broken price model and resulting inadequate network is not going to be considered a valid reason for blocking or limiting one service over another. Responding to a virus attack, or preventing spam or similar are valid reasons for performing at least temporary blocking. But if your blocking gets in the way of a legitimate application, you need to be prepared to resolve any issues that come up. All the FCC cares about is that the ISP's don't get to prevent a legitimate application from operating across their network. A good example would be the widespread port 25 blocking which occurs. It doesn't prevent legitimate mail from flowing (it is easy to configure around), but it does prevent spammers from using a network to spew mail out to the world. -forrest Larry Yunker wrote: It looks like the FCC now has the votes necessary to sanction Comcast for its P2P throttling. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080725-hammer-drops-at-last-fcc-oppos es-comcast-p2p-throttling.html It's set to be vote on officially next Friday. This is a disturbing decision if it implies that ISPs will no longer be allowed to control P2P traffic flow originating from their own customers on their own networks. Regards, Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
Yet anither reason us (WISP) and all Cable and DSL(telcos) will go to a usage based systemno more all you can eat. I am not sure, but I bet they (FCC) have no control on us in that circumstance. Just my 1 pence. Scottie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Yunker Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality It looks like the FCC now has the votes necessary to sanction Comcast for its P2P throttling. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080725-hammer-drops-at-last-fcc-oppos es-comcast-p2p-throttling.html It's set to be vote on officially next Friday. This is a disturbing decision if it implies that ISPs will no longer be allowed to control P2P traffic flow originating from their own customers on their own networks. Regards, Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1575 - Release Date: 7/26/2008 4:18 PM --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
Blair, I do the same thing. Whenever we do an install we tell them before we do it that we throttle ptp traffic. Wonder how this will play out as we are a all-you-can eat buffet except that we fully disclose ptp trafficking and I am wanting to change to a usage based model. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blair Davis Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 6:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality This whole thing makes me wounder... What about when it is spelled out to the user before they sign up? I inform all users that we reserve the right to limit traffic, especially peer to peer traffic. I also tell them that we do not support or recommend VoIP services. They are welcome to try them, but our system was not designed for them and we will not promise if or how well they will work on our residential or light commercial circuits. This is not hidden in a page of fine print. It is spelled out, in person, before the install is done. Every user on my network was informed of this. What will it mean to me? we Forrest W. Christian wrote: I have said this over and over in various forums: Throttling/shaping on a per-application basis is not a good idea. Bandwidth caps and pay-per-bit are the correct way to handle bandwidth hogs. The FCC doesn't care how you limit, as long as you apply it equally to all bandwidth types. I believe the FCC's position is simple: If you are a internet provider, you have to carry all types of traffic indiscriminately. The FCC is *not* going to prevent blockage of ports and other limiting for legitimate network management reasons. Preventing the use of bandwidth hog applications to fix your broken price model and resulting inadequate network is not going to be considered a valid reason for blocking or limiting one service over another. Responding to a virus attack, or preventing spam or similar are valid reasons for performing at least temporary blocking. But if your blocking gets in the way of a legitimate application, you need to be prepared to resolve any issues that come up. All the FCC cares about is that the ISP's don't get to prevent a legitimate application from operating across their network. A good example would be the widespread port 25 blocking which occurs. It doesn't prevent legitimate mail from flowing (it is easy to configure around), but it does prevent spammers from using a network to spew mail out to the world. -forrest Larry Yunker wrote: It looks like the FCC now has the votes necessary to sanction Comcast for its P2P throttling. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080725-hammer-drops-at-last-fcc-oppos es-comcast-p2p-throttling.html It's set to be vote on officially next Friday. This is a disturbing decision if it implies that ISPs will no longer be allowed to control P2P traffic flow originating from their own customers on their own networks. Regards, Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1575 - Release Date: 7/26/2008 4:18 PM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality
More on this...Many of us have not already implemented this because of our competition from cable and dsl. Same for me! I think the the FCC has finally provided ALL broadband providers a reason to implemente this(as we can't control traffic) although it will be a major blow to the U.S. broadband penetration. I know I have been waiting for it since 2002. Let the NEW games begin! Scott -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 10:04 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality Yet anither reason us (WISP) and all Cable and DSL(telcos) will go to a usage based systemno more all you can eat. I am not sure, but I bet they (FCC) have no control on us in that circumstance. Just my 1 pence. Scottie -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Larry Yunker Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:37 AM To: 'WISPA General List'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WISPA] More FCC News - Net Neutrality It looks like the FCC now has the votes necessary to sanction Comcast for its P2P throttling. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080725-hammer-drops-at-last-fcc-oppos es-comcast-p2p-throttling.html It's set to be vote on officially next Friday. This is a disturbing decision if it implies that ISPs will no longer be allowed to control P2P traffic flow originating from their own customers on their own networks. Regards, Larry Yunker Network Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1575 - Release Date: 7/26/2008 4:18 PM --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.6/1575 - Release Date: 7/26/2008 4:18 PM --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
