Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing
Where, O Where is our WISPA Crown dude? I am not in a position at the moment to recommend Crown to ANY WISP, not even if one was my worst enemy! From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 10:14 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing I wish I could say nice things. I wish I could say nice things. But Mama told me that if I can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. I have a pretty good Crown Castle horror story developing. I will be glad to share the details if things do not get ironed out, and quickly. I will say that if you are considering it, do not get into a contract with them. They still think we are all Cell Carriers or Clearwire! If the representative from the Kinder, Gentler, WISPA member Crown Castle happens to be listening, I think he needs to reply to me off list! Ralph Brightlan.net ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing
Probably on the memb...@wispa.org list. George Njezic is his name. I will see him next week as he is on the Let's Negotiate a Tower Contract panel at ISPAmerica. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:23 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing Where, O Where is our WISPA Crown dude? I am not in a position at the moment to recommend Crown to ANY WISP, not even if one was my worst enemy! From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 10:14 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing I wish I could say nice things. I wish I could say nice things. But Mama told me that if I can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. I have a pretty good Crown Castle horror story developing. I will be glad to share the details if things do not get ironed out, and quickly. I will say that if you are considering it, do not get into a contract with them. They still think we are all Cell Carriers or Clearwire! If the representative from the Kinder, Gentler, WISPA member Crown Castle happens to be listening, I think he needs to reply to me off list! Ralph Brightlan.net ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing
yeah, that's an excellent example, of what I was getting at... A transaction at of that sort, (low antenna count and low price) wouldn't spark a alot of interest, or atleast not at a low cost per antenna, waiving fees. Heck, last time I place an antenna upgrade, the app touched like 10 different people as it went from stage to stage. The cost to a tower company to accept a small # antenna app is almost as high as accepting an order for many antennas. Ther are many tower Cos that are happy accepting 1 antenna apps, but they also charge $500 per antenna in those cases, because there is a minmum transaction level to make it worth while to process the order, and in most cases could get 5 for the same price.. They could always help out as a good gesture, good neighbor, charity type thing, but then again some would say, what about the liabilty, or the reason we charge the big bucks is that our towers are build stronger to surive the tornados. Why give away our value? One of the mistakes I've made in the past is, I represented Help me, I wont be a pain on your resources, All I need is 1U of space, all I need is help for a month, can you help me out on the price? No sales rep cares about that. To get help I have to represent, I'm ready to commit to a five year contract, I'll need a lot of resources from you, I need 6 antennas today, and I expect to add 3 times that by the time I'm complete, if you give me a good price today. But, that said, I hear you. It sucks most for the rural end user. The one that has to look at the 300ft tower in their back yard everyday, but still cant get broadband, because of the tower cost.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: CBB - Jay Fuller To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing Honestly, what i'd need to put up on this crown tower is three radios ; one as a backhaul, a 5.7 omni and a 900 mhz omni. Wouldn't need it if the tornado hadn't destroyed the downtown tower site we were on (and the owners weren't taking forever to rebuild it) can't see the justification happening... we've got everyone moved to a different tower except for four people - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing I dont doubt the claims made, but Our experience with Crown has been very positive. I'd argue probably easiest of all, after all things considered, reviewing our last 10 years as a WISP and working with tower companies. Going into these type agreements, meaning with any national tower company, its important to recognize that tower reps are just like any other large dollar large volume leasor/landlord, where there are managers and lawyers on staff, that look at the letter of the law and every minute detail in their contracts, and make decissions from a far as a NON-Emotionally-attached apponent. They represent their interests, not yours. Most of the initial template contracts are written to be one sided in favor of the tower leasor, and are clear about the tower company's remedies in cases of a Leasee's default, and not so clear on what if any remedies are availale to the leasee in cases of Leasor's breach. That is unless you've been fortunate enough to get the terms changed to be more favorable to you, before you signed them. terms (meaning length of time commitment) specifically is a common issue of challenge, after a falling out occurs. Anytime something evolves to a legal battle, its likely going to evolve to a situation that would be considered unfortunate or ugly for all parties involved. Its the equivellent of a divorce for business.. I'd also argue that Tower companies are probably still taking a beating financially right now. I'm sure the Clearwire failures have led to large scale revenue loss nationwide. And I'm sure BTOP/BIP programs of the past 2 years weren't helping much, encouraging wireless companies to build their own towers, instead of entering into rental type lease agreement for colo space. The tower consolidators probably paid well to aquire the other tower companies. There are big dollars at stake, and they need to target big revenue to get their ROI.. At the end of the day, a leasor has to say why do I want to help this guy, what's in it for me?. If this isn't going to be one of my customers, why shouldn't I rake every last penny out of them that I can? Even if it seems unethical or unsympathetic, doesn't loyalty have to be given to the stock holders, and my wallet, first?. I can tell you, I've worked with some ruthless landlords over the years, and comparatively Crown was a Saint, no where near that level of Bad. I delt with one leasor (NOT related
Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing
I was told there would be a change at WISPALOOZA...after 6 weeks of negotiations, we walked away. A friend of mine decommissioned a Crown site he was on. They removed everything. Some how a cable hanger was still there. Crown is fighting with them to get them to pay back rent for that one cable hanger. The claim was $14,000 in back rent and $4,000 to remove the cable hanger. Each month that $14k increases. Regards, Chuck On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 11:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller par...@cyberbroadband.net wrote: ** Looked at a Crown tower today - and remembered the horror stories. Not interested unless there is a real change. - Original Message - *From:* Ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org *To:* 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:13 PM *Subject:* [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing *I wish I could say nice things… I wish I could say nice things. But Mama told me that if I can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. * *I have a pretty good Crown Castle horror story developing. I will be glad to share the details if things do not get ironed out, and quickly.* * * *I will say that if you are considering it, do not get into a contract with them. They still think we are all Cell Carriers or Clearwire!* * * * * *If the representative from the “Kinder, Gentler, WISPA member Crown Castle” happens to be listening, I think he needs to reply to me off list! * * * * * *Ralph* *Brightlan.net * -- ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing
We have good relationships with the local Crown rep people who have been good to work with, so no horror stories, but the start up fees to get on one of their towers is just ridiculous..I'm not an ATT or Verizon with a gazillion $$$. I would probably do a lot more business with Crown, but only had 2 arms and 2 legs and they are long gone! On 3/11/2012 10:26 AM, Chuck Hogg wrote: I was told there would be a change at WISPALOOZA...after 6 weeks of negotiations, we walked away. A friend of mine decommissioned a Crown site he was on. They removed everything. Some how a cable hanger was still there. Crown is fighting with them to get them to pay back rent for that one cable hanger. The claim was $14,000 in back rent and $4,000 to remove the cable hanger. Each month that $14k increases. Regards, Chuck On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 11:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller par...@cyberbroadband.net mailto:par...@cyberbroadband.net wrote: Looked at a Crown tower today - and remembered the horror stories. Not interested unless there is a real change. - Original Message - *From:* Ralph mailto:ralphli...@bsrg.org *To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:13 PM *Subject:* [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing *I wish I could say nice things… I wish I could say nice things. But Mama told me that if I can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.* *I have a pretty good Crown Castle horror story developing. I will be glad to share the details if things do not get ironed out, and quickly.* ** *I will say that if you are considering it, do not get into a contract with them. They still think we are all Cell Carriers or Clearwire!* ** ** *If the representative from the “Kinder, Gentler, WISPA member Crown Castle” happens to be listening, I think he needs to reply to me off list!* ** ** *Ralph* *Brightlan.net * ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org mailto:Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org mailto:Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing
, if the lessor's goal is to get more money, try to get something in return for that that would be worthwhile for you to spend that additional money. Maybe more antenna or Freq bands for that higher price. That would be more beneficial than paying more per antenna. In other word, if the goal may be to get more money, they might not care how they accomplish it, and may be open to suggestions) 3) You'll be more likely to get what you want if the end result is staying a customer of theirs, as there is a cost to them for every decission, and they have a better chance to cost justify a favor, it they can make back their money over time from you. 4) Dont go over your primary contact's heads, unless you are truly convinced that that party is a big part of the problem. If so, my guess is that higher up supervisors probably would help and would want to know about it, if the primary contact really was not doing their job appropriately. 5) If the terms of a transaction are not acceptable to you, DONT DO THE TRANSACTION. Under stand that for that property, there may just not be a match. There is a lot of competition out there, and there are likely other tower leasors around to consider instead. Moving towers, isn't always as expensive and disruptive as one might think. 6) The most important part in establishing a good vendor, is being able to have meaningful dialogue between you and your rep, to negotiate, where both parties can hear each other, and look for accomplishing mutually beneficial. If a vendor does not provide that for you, then you need to change reps or look elsewhere. (You also need to be able to provide that). 7) If you are moving in the direction where you likely wont be a colocation customer at that site, try and make it that that decission was made by the landlord. Meaning, Create the perception that you'd like to be there at X specified terms. So you give the rep a chance to have your business. You are then the good guy. Should they then turn that down, and not want to lease to you, then it is on them, that they lost your business. (They surely cant hold you responsible for them turning away your business). In other words, always propose a resolution, or the solution that would work for you, for their consideration. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: bret clark To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing We have good relationships with the local Crown rep people who have been good to work with, so no horror stories, but the start up fees to get on one of their towers is just ridiculous..I'm not an ATT or Verizon with a gazillion $$$. I would probably do a lot more business with Crown, but only had 2 arms and 2 legs and they are long gone! On 3/11/2012 10:26 AM, Chuck Hogg wrote: I was told there would be a change at WISPALOOZA...after 6 weeks of negotiations, we walked away. A friend of mine decommissioned a Crown site he was on. They removed everything. Some how a cable hanger was still there. Crown is fighting with them to get them to pay back rent for that one cable hanger. The claim was $14,000 in back rent and $4,000 to remove the cable hanger. Each month that $14k increases. Regards, Chuck On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 11:05 PM, CBB - Jay Fuller par...@cyberbroadband.net wrote: Looked at a Crown tower today - and remembered the horror stories. Not interested unless there is a real change. - Original Message - From: Ralph To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:13 PM Subject: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing I wish I could say nice things… I wish I could say nice things. But Mama told me that if I can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. I have a pretty good Crown Castle horror story developing. I will be glad to share the details if things do not get ironed out, and quickly. I will say that if you are considering it, do not get into a contract with them. They still think we are all Cell Carriers or Clearwire! If the representative from the “Kinder, Gentler, WISPA member Crown Castle” happens to be listening, I think he needs to reply to me off list! Ralph Brightlan.net ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing
Honestly, what i'd need to put up on this crown tower is three radios ; one as a backhaul, a 5.7 omni and a 900 mhz omni. Wouldn't need it if the tornado hadn't destroyed the downtown tower site we were on (and the owners weren't taking forever to rebuild it) can't see the justification happening... we've got everyone moved to a different tower except for four people - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing I dont doubt the claims made, but Our experience with Crown has been very positive. I'd argue probably easiest of all, after all things considered, reviewing our last 10 years as a WISP and working with tower companies. Going into these type agreements, meaning with any national tower company, its important to recognize that tower reps are just like any other large dollar large volume leasor/landlord, where there are managers and lawyers on staff, that look at the letter of the law and every minute detail in their contracts, and make decissions from a far as a NON-Emotionally-attached apponent. They represent their interests, not yours. Most of the initial template contracts are written to be one sided in favor of the tower leasor, and are clear about the tower company's remedies in cases of a Leasee's default, and not so clear on what if any remedies are availale to the leasee in cases of Leasor's breach. That is unless you've been fortunate enough to get the terms changed to be more favorable to you, before you signed them. terms (meaning length of time commitment) specifically is a common issue of challenge, after a falling out occurs. Anytime something evolves to a legal battle, its likely going to evolve to a situation that would be considered unfortunate or ugly for all parties involved. Its the equivellent of a divorce for business.. I'd also argue that Tower companies are probably still taking a beating financially right now. I'm sure the Clearwire failures have led to large scale revenue loss nationwide. And I'm sure BTOP/BIP programs of the past 2 years weren't helping much, encouraging wireless companies to build their own towers, instead of entering into rental type lease agreement for colo space. The tower consolidators probably paid well to aquire the other tower companies. There are big dollars at stake, and they need to target big revenue to get their ROI.. At the end of the day, a leasor has to say why do I want to help this guy, what's in it for me?. If this isn't going to be one of my customers, why shouldn't I rake every last penny out of them that I can? Even if it seems unethical or unsympathetic, doesn't loyalty have to be given to the stock holders, and my wallet, first?. I can tell you, I've worked with some ruthless landlords over the years, and comparatively Crown was a Saint, no where near that level of Bad. I delt with one leasor (NOT related to Crown) guy, that if I ever tried to negotiate, or include into a sentance spoken to him the word price or phrase it would be more fair if or but you breached the contract by, and I should be compensated for that ( fpr things like, no longer allowing me to have 24/7 access anymore, or letting other carriers move my gear and put stuff in front of mine, without tell me first), the immediate response was, OK, lets cancel the lease, we dont want to lease to you anyway and we'd rathr you gone. Be gone in 30 days, or we'll remove your stuff. I reply, But I have a 5 year contract!. Replied, so what, take me to court and I'll barry you in legal fees. I'm telling you, its better at Crown, and let me tell you why 1) Crown knows the market. 2) Crown's only business is a business designed around leasing space to wireless providers. 3) The more simultaenous prospects they find to colo, the better their ROI. This dynamic is a great starting point. There is a basis for a transaction, and both parties have the potential to be important to the other party. Its just a matter of figuring out what the numbers and terms need to be, to make it worth your and Crown's time. And it takes some compromise and constraint, because the goliath companies have controls in place for doing business due to the vast inventory to manage, generally controls that can be encombersome for the small WISP, that is used to doign things on the fly. I often find that WISPs tend to look at their own business model, and what it affords, instead of being a bit more insightful, and looking into the tower comapny's business, and trying to identify what would be fair to them from Crown's perspective. In other words, the reality factor. Sometimes the reality is, to do business with a powerhouse tower company, it may take a higher price than what the WISP's business model originally budgeted to afford. If a WISP is paying market
[WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing
I wish I could say nice things. I wish I could say nice things. But Mama told me that if I can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. I have a pretty good Crown Castle horror story developing. I will be glad to share the details if things do not get ironed out, and quickly. I will say that if you are considering it, do not get into a contract with them. They still think we are all Cell Carriers or Clearwire! If the representative from the Kinder, Gentler, WISPA member Crown Castle happens to be listening, I think he needs to reply to me off list! Ralph Brightlan.net ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing
Looked at a Crown tower today - and remembered the horror stories. Not interested unless there is a real change. - Original Message - From: Ralph To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:13 PM Subject: [WISPA] New Crown Castle Nightmare Developing I wish I could say nice things. I wish I could say nice things. But Mama told me that if I can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. I have a pretty good Crown Castle horror story developing. I will be glad to share the details if things do not get ironed out, and quickly. I will say that if you are considering it, do not get into a contract with them. They still think we are all Cell Carriers or Clearwire! If the representative from the Kinder, Gentler, WISPA member Crown Castle happens to be listening, I think he needs to reply to me off list! Ralph Brightlan.net -- ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
