Re: [WISPA] Unlicensed Devices in the TV Bands (was: FCC Says White-Space Spectrum Device Doesn't Work)

2007-08-13 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

Whoo hoo!!  That's great news!

Now if we can just get the FCC to make sure that it's an outdoor only 
band  At least for the time being.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Sascha Meinrath [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:56 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Unlicensed Devices in the TV Bands (was: FCC Says 
White-Space Spectrum Device Doesn't Work)




Hi all,

If one reads through the actual FCC report findings, you'll see that 
unlicensed
devices in the TV bands are not just workable, but that the data the FCC 
itself
collected supports the view that they're a viable technology.  Keep in 
mind that
these devices are 1st generation prototypes.  Meanwhile, here's some food 
for

thought:

First, let me just say that the Microsoft prototype sucked -- there's no 
other
way around that one -- it doesn't perform even close to spec and fails 
miserably
on just about every single benchmark that was tested.  I find it hard to 
believe
that the device was performing as engineered, but then again, Microsoft 
has been
known to lay an egg from time to time.  That said, as it turns out, the 
Phillips

prototype performed exceptionally well.

One _major_ measurement decision directly affecting the results of the 
study
needs to get drawn out -- there is no standard for the sensing threshold 
for
these devices.  The White Spaces Coalition created a standard of -114 dBm 
as the
necessary level of measure.  However, the 802.22 committee has also been 
working

on a standard (which is not yet set) of -116 dBm.  The prototypes were
ngineered to the -114 dBm standard; however, the FCC researchers tested 
them
based on the IEEE proposal of -116 dBm.  In essence, they were tested 
outside of
spec to begin with (you can read the FCC's statement to the effect in the 
second

paragraph of section 3.1 of the report).

Several figures included in the report include the gradients from -119 dBm 
to
-113 dBm -- so one can find out how the Phillips prototype did at the -114 
dBm

that it was manufactured to -- and the results are _stunning_:

Figure 3-4. Baseline Detection Threshold Results for Prototype B (page 14 
of the
report) -- measures how well the prototype detects a DTV signal on the 
same
channel.  At -114 dBm this prototype detected a signal 100% of the time 
(not a
lot, majority, most, or almost all, but 100%). At -115 dBm is also detects 
TV
signal 100% of the time (i.e., the prototype performs even better than it 
was
manufactured to do).  It's only at the -116 dBm mark (which is out of 
spec) that
it only detects things about 97% of the time on two of the channels and 
less
than 40% of the time on a third channel.  Of course, only the 
out-of-spec -116
dBm results were widely disseminating while the in-spec -114 dBm home run 
wasn't

mentioned at all.

Figure 3-9. Two-Channel Detection Threshold Test Results for WSD Prototype 
B
(page 18 of the report) -- measures how well the prototype detects DTV 
signal on

adjacent channels.  Once again, at -114 dBm the Phillips prototype detects
adjacent channel signals 100% of the time.  It does poorly at the -116 dBm 
mark,

but it was never manufactured to measure at that sensitivity.

The Phillips prototype was never used in field tests (at the request of 
the
manufacturer).  But taken together, it appears that unlicensed devices can 
work

_extremely well_ within the TV-Band at the level of sensitivity they are
manufactured to see.  The problem is that they were tested completely
out-of-spec (I suspect that the manufacturers did not know that the FCC 
would
use a different testing metric than they were using).  When tested 
in-spec, the
Phillips Prototype scored a whopping 100% on both bench tests -- which is 
both

remarkable and quite promising for the technology.

It's rare that I find something so completely different from what has been
reported.  But in this case, the news has all been that the idea is a 
complete

failure; yet it appears that the Phillips Prototype has demonstrated quite
conclusively that unlicensed devices in unused bands are quite possible.

--Sascha Meinrath
Research Director
Wireless Futures Program
New America Foundation


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

--
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

RE: [WISPA] Unlicensed Devices in the TV Bands (was: FCC Says White-Space Spectrum Device Doesn't Work)

2007-08-09 Thread Butch Evans

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007, Patrick Leary wrote:

Wow, what an awesome post. Thank you Sascha. I don't know I 
continually need to re-learn the lesson that what is reported in 
often not true and never the whole story.


I'd agree with you, Patrick.  It is certainly a frightening reality 
that only part of the story was told.  You were recently at the 
wrong end of this same kind of thing, IIRC.


As for the band and device possibilities, I am not sure I agree with 
your assessment of it's uses.  Well, not entirely.  I think you are 
correct (I wouldn't presume to argue with your view of the industry) 
in that this band will see uses far beyond simple bwia.  Am I 
understanding your viewpoint correctly when I assume that you are 
stating that bwia is not likely to be used widely in this band?


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html

WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

--
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/