RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz
They have to be referring to real throughput (for once), and up to is an really sneaky preface. Bruce T. Johnson | Network Engineer | Partners Healthcare Network Engineering | 617.726.9662 | Pager: 31633 | bjohns...@partners.org From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv on behalf of Lee H Badman Sent: Thu 3/5/2009 8:16 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz Great info, Phillipe. But how can I now do 600 Mbps at 50 times the distance if my adapter won't do SGI? Perhaps some of the vendors are having fun with the draft spec ( ya think?)? For what it's worth, here's my favorite hype I've found so far on 11n: This wireless adapter delivers up to 14x faster speeds and 6x farther range than 802.11g while staying backward compatible with 802.11g networks. So... 14x faster than 54 Mbps = 756 Mbps. I've got one on order- will let you know when I break the sound barrier with it, that is if I don't implode into a hyper-bandwidth wormhole (at 16X the range!) and end up in some alternate universe. This is becoming the stuff of really lame infomercials. -Lee From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of Philippe Hanset Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:56 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz When Aruba came on our campus they explained the difference between Broadcom Macs and Atheros Mac...we all rushed to the computerstore get the last Atheros based ones! The Broadcom on Macs cannot do Short Guard Interval The Atheros can (0x168C is for Atheros on Mac profiler) Here is a table of throughput for Short Guard Interval (400ns) and Standard Guard Interval (800ns) 800ns standard guard interval: 1 spatial stream (SS) in 20 MHz gives 65 Mbps. 2 SS - 20 MHz = 130. 1 SS in 40 Mhz gives 135. 2 SS in 40 Mhz gives 270. 400ns short guard interval: 1 spatial stream (SS) in 20 MHz gives 72 Mbps. 2 SS - 20 MHz = 144. 1 SS in 40 Mhz gives 150. 2 SS in 40 Mhz gives 300. On Mar 4, 2009, at 7:19 PM, Jeffrey Sessler wrote: Lee, I've seen this depending on the WiFi chipset the Mac is using. For broadcom-based, it's a transmit rate of 270. For atheros-based, it's 300. What does System Profiler on the Mac report as the manufacture of the AirPort card? best, jeff Lee H Badman lhbad...@syr.edu 3/4/2009 2:47 PM One curious note I saw today between two Macs- one was definitely using short guard interval as configured on the AP, along with wide-channels and no legacy mojo to get to 300 Mbps stated data rate. But- the other would top put at 270- would not use SGI. As far as I can tell, there's no difference between the client machines, and there is nothing to set on the Mac... Going against an Aruba test environment. Curious. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv on behalf of Jeffrey Sessler Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 4:59 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz Concerning the channel 161 issue... While not specific to channel 161, there is an issue with the broadcom chipset as installed in Apple and other products. The Cisco unified AP's broadcast a world mode information item that the client should use to determine power level. In the case of the broadcom chips/driver, when it sees this information item in the beacon, it causes the driver to set the client power levels incorrectly (like at zero or bouncing). Lower channels seem to do better than higher, thus why channel 161 seems to have issues. There is currently no way to disable the world mode IE in unified, but cicso is working on it. I have new AP code that disables it, and it does fix the broadcom issues in my Macs. Broadcom is also working on a driver update, but who knows how long it's going to take before it shows up and clients update. best, Jeff James Nesbitt n...@duke.edu 3/4/2009 12:23 PM David, In your output, the channel reading does not indicate bonding (channel number followed by ,1 for above or ,-1 for below). Also, the SNR listed in this output is excellent, this client should have an MCS data rate of 14 or 15. Try changing the AP channel to anything but 161. I have been seeing some strange issues with Mac clients and at this point the only common thread is channel 161. I don't know if Apple is secretly doing something with channel 161 or what. Maybe to enhance the speed for Apple to Apple ad-hoc. In the couple of instances that I have seen this the issue cleared up when I changed the channel. James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 1:10 PM, David Wang wrote: Thanks James. Here is my output: ccs-nss-macbook:~ nsteam$ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz
Confirm what MCS rate you are connecting at, signal strength, and noise. Is your Mac client really bonding (should have a channel number with + or -1)? Make sure all of your data rates are enabled for the A band as well. user-111-123-111-1:~ $ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport -I agrCtlRSSI: -59 agrExtRSSI: -66 agrCtlNoise: -92 agrExtNoise: -92 state: running op mode: station lastTxRate: 300 maxRate: 270 lastAssocStatus: 0 802.11 auth: open link auth: unknown BSSID: 0:1f:9e:8d:70:fe SSID: test MCS: 15 channel: 44,1 James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 10:23 AM, David Wang wrote: I am testing Mac OS X 10.5.6 with cisco 1140 a/b/g/n APs, but only see the AirPort's speed up to 78M with 802.11n once, most time it stuck at 54M of 802.11a. Another Linksys 802.11n card can easily up to 240M with 40M channel on 802.11a/n. Do I miss something? David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 4-Mar-09, at 9:00 AM, David Wang wrote: Looks like Apple is listening: http://support.apple.com/downloads/AirPort_Client_Update_2009_001 About AirPort Client Update 2009-001 This update is recommended for all Intel-based Macintosh computers running Mac OS X 10.5.6. It addresses issues with roaming and network selection in dual-band environments. David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 23-Feb-09, at 8:53 PM, Lee H Badman wrote: William, I have no answers, but would encourage you to vigorously engage your local rep and ask for an ear in Apple's development. It took us a while, but feels like they are starting to get that their products are actually less than perfect on the WLAN. -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of William Green Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:56 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz We continue to experience problems with Mac OSX devices preferring 2.4GHz (g) networks instead of 5GHz (a/n). We want devices at 5GHz whenever possible. From the little we can tell the pllst (/Library/Preferences/SystemConfiguration/ com.apple.airport.preferences. plist) appears to be remembering channels seen across our campus-wide SSID, and then chooses 2.4GHz for whatever reasons. If you delete the slower channels in the plist and don't change APs, it stays on the 5GHz channel. Unfortunately our wireless infrastructure is mixed (lots of g only) so a user will quickly get a 2.4GHz channel in their plist which sticks them in 2.4GHz again. Does anyone have additional information about this problem? Work-arounds (on a campus scale)? Dates for fixes? -- William C. Green e-mail: gr...@mail.utexas.edu Director, Networking phone: +1 512-475-9295 ITS (Information Technology Services) fax: +1 512-471-2449 University of Texas 1 University Station Stop C3800 Austin, TX 78712 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/ . ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/ . ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/ . ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/ . ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz
David, Make sure that you have WMM enabled on the WLAN. This is under QoS on the WLAN configuration on cisco WLC/WCS. It needs to be on to enable 802.11n rates. Also, make sure wide-channel is enabled (40MHz). To confirm what the Mac thinks is going on, enable the display of the WLAN icon in the menu bar, hold down the key, and click on the WLAN icon. Should give you channel, transmit rate, etc. Jeff David Wang daw...@uoguelph.ca 03/04/09 7:24 AM I am testing Mac OS X 10.5.6 with cisco 1140 a/b/g/n APs, but only see the AirPort's speed up to 78M with 802.11n once, most time it stuck at 54M of 802.11a. Another Linksys 802.11n card can easily up to 240M with 40M channel on 802.11a/n. Do I miss something? David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 4-Mar-09, at 9:00 AM, David Wang wrote: Looks like Apple is listening: http://support.apple.com/downloads/AirPort_Client_Update_2009_001 About AirPort Client Update 2009-001 This update is recommended for all Intel-based Macintosh computers running Mac OS X 10.5.6. It addresses issues with roaming and network selection in dual-band environments. David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 23-Feb-09, at 8:53 PM, Lee H Badman wrote: William, I have no answers, but would encourage you to vigorously engage your local rep and ask for an ear in Apple's development. It took us a while, but feels like they are starting to get that their products are actually less than perfect on the WLAN. -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of William Green Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:56 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz We continue to experience problems with Mac OSX devices preferring 2.4GHz (g) networks instead of 5GHz (a/n). We want devices at 5GHz whenever possible. From the little we can tell the pllst (/Library/Preferences/SystemConfiguration/ com.apple.airport.preferences. plist) appears to be remembering channels seen across our campus-wide SSID, and then chooses 2.4GHz for whatever reasons. If you delete the slower channels in the plist and don't change APs, it stays on the 5GHz channel. Unfortunately our wireless infrastructure is mixed (lots of g only) so a user will quickly get a 2.4GHz channel in their plist which sticks them in 2.4GHz again. Does anyone have additional information about this problem? Work-arounds (on a campus scale)? Dates for fixes? -- William C. Green e-mail: gr...@mail.utexas.edu Director, Networking phone: +1 512-475-9295 ITS (Information Technology Services) fax: +1 512-471-2449 University of Texas 1 University Station Stop C3800 Austin, TX 78712 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/ groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/ . ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/ . ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. /daw...@uoguelph.ca ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz
Thanks for sharing that. It would be good to hear if anyone can confirm that it helps. I see a grand total of 11 words of release notes. Geez. Pete Morrissey From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of David Wang Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:00 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz Looks like Apple is listening: http://support.apple.com/downloads/AirPort_Client_Update_2009_001 About AirPort Client Update 2009-001 This update is recommended for all Intel-based Macintosh computers running Mac OS X 10.5.6. It addresses issues with roaming and network selection in dual-band environments. David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 23-Feb-09, at 8:53 PM, Lee H Badman wrote: William, I have no answers, but would encourage you to vigorously engage your local rep and ask for an ear in Apple's development. It took us a while, but feels like they are starting to get that their products are actually less than perfect on the WLAN. -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of William Green Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:56 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz We continue to experience problems with Mac OSX devices preferring 2.4GHz (g) networks instead of 5GHz (a/n). We want devices at 5GHz whenever possible. From the little we can tell the pllst (/Library/Preferences/SystemConfiguration/com.apple.airport.preferences. plist) appears to be remembering channels seen across our campus-wide SSID, and then chooses 2.4GHz for whatever reasons. If you delete the slower channels in the plist and don't change APs, it stays on the 5GHz channel. Unfortunately our wireless infrastructure is mixed (lots of g only) so a user will quickly get a 2.4GHz channel in their plist which sticks them in 2.4GHz again. Does anyone have additional information about this problem? Work-arounds (on a campus scale)? Dates for fixes? -- William C. Green e-mail: gr...@mail.utexas.edu Director, Networking phone: +1 512-475-9295 ITS (Information Technology Services) fax: +1 512-471-2449 University of Texas 1 University Station Stop C3800 Austin, TX 78712 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz
David, In your output, the channel reading does not indicate bonding (channel number followed by ,1 for above or ,-1 for below). Also, the SNR listed in this output is excellent, this client should have an MCS data rate of 14 or 15. Try changing the AP channel to anything but 161. I have been seeing some strange issues with Mac clients and at this point the only common thread is channel 161. I don't know if Apple is secretly doing something with channel 161 or what. Maybe to enhance the speed for Apple to Apple ad-hoc. In the couple of instances that I have seen this the issue cleared up when I changed the channel. James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 1:10 PM, David Wang wrote: Thanks James. Here is my output: ccs-nss-macbook:~ nsteam$ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport -I agrCtlRSSI: -55 agrExtRSSI: 0 agrCtlNoise: -95 agrExtNoise: 0 state: running op mode: station lastTxRate: 54 maxRate: 54 lastAssocStatus: 0 802.11 auth: open link auth: wpa2 BSSID: 0:22:90:92:9c:be SSID: uog-wifi-secure MCS: -1 channel: 161 Any idea? And as Jeff suggested, WMM is enabled, all WCS rates are enabled, channel is indeed binding. And the windows client is definitely showing 240M on 802.11n with same AP. David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 4-Mar-09, at 11:00 AM, James Nesbitt wrote: Confirm what MCS rate you are connecting at, signal strength, and noise. Is your Mac client really bonding (should have a channel number with + or -1)? Make sure all of your data rates are enabled for the A band as well. user-111-123-111-1:~ $ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport -I agrCtlRSSI: -59 agrExtRSSI: -66 agrCtlNoise: -92 agrExtNoise: -92 state: running op mode: station lastTxRate: 300 maxRate: 270 lastAssocStatus: 0 802.11 auth: open link auth: unknown BSSID: 0:1f:9e:8d:70:fe SSID: test MCS: 15 channel: 44,1 James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 10:23 AM, David Wang wrote: I am testing Mac OS X 10.5.6 with cisco 1140 a/b/g/n APs, but only see the AirPort's speed up to 78M with 802.11n once, most time it stuck at 54M of 802.11a. Another Linksys 802.11n card can easily up to 240M with 40M channel on 802.11a/n. Do I miss something? David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 4-Mar-09, at 9:00 AM, David Wang wrote: Looks like Apple is listening: http://support.apple.com/downloads/AirPort_Client_Update_2009_001 About AirPort Client Update 2009-001 This update is recommended for all Intel-based Macintosh computers running Mac OS X 10.5.6. It addresses issues with roaming and network selection in dual- band environments. David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 23-Feb-09, at 8:53 PM, Lee H Badman wrote: William, I have no answers, but would encourage you to vigorously engage your local rep and ask for an ear in Apple's development. It took us a while, but feels like they are starting to get that their products are actually less than perfect on the WLAN. -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of William Green Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:56 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz We continue to experience problems with Mac OSX devices preferring 2.4GHz (g) networks instead of 5GHz (a/n). We want devices at 5GHz whenever possible. From the little we can tell the pllst (/Library/Preferences/SystemConfiguration/ com.apple.airport.preferences. plist) appears to be remembering channels seen across our campus-wide SSID, and then chooses 2.4GHz for whatever reasons. If you delete the slower channels in the plist and don't change APs, it stays on the 5GHz channel. Unfortunately our wireless infrastructure is mixed (lots of g only) so a user will quickly get a 2.4GHz channel in their plist which sticks them in 2.4GHz again. Does anyone have additional information about this problem? Work-arounds (on a campus scale)? Dates for fixes? -- William C. Green e-mail: gr...@mail.utexas.edu Director, Networking phone: +1 512-475-9295 ITS (Information Technology Services) fax: +1 512-471-2449 University of Texas 1 University Station Stop C3800 Austin, TX 78712 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz
One curious note I saw today between two Macs- one was definitely using short guard interval as configured on the AP, along with wide-channels and no legacy mojo to get to 300 Mbps stated data rate. But- the other would top put at 270- would not use SGI. As far as I can tell, there's no difference between the client machines, and there is nothing to set on the Mac... Going against an Aruba test environment. Curious. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv on behalf of Jeffrey Sessler Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 4:59 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz Concerning the channel 161 issue... While not specific to channel 161, there is an issue with the broadcom chipset as installed in Apple and other products. The Cisco unified AP's broadcast a world mode information item that the client should use to determine power level. In the case of the broadcom chips/driver, when it sees this information item in the beacon, it causes the driver to set the client power levels incorrectly (like at zero or bouncing). Lower channels seem to do better than higher, thus why channel 161 seems to have issues. There is currently no way to disable the world mode IE in unified, but cicso is working on it. I have new AP code that disables it, and it does fix the broadcom issues in my Macs. Broadcom is also working on a driver update, but who knows how long it's going to take before it shows up and clients update. best, Jeff James Nesbitt n...@duke.edu 3/4/2009 12:23 PM David, In your output, the channel reading does not indicate bonding (channel number followed by ,1 for above or ,-1 for below). Also, the SNR listed in this output is excellent, this client should have an MCS data rate of 14 or 15. Try changing the AP channel to anything but 161. I have been seeing some strange issues with Mac clients and at this point the only common thread is channel 161. I don't know if Apple is secretly doing something with channel 161 or what. Maybe to enhance the speed for Apple to Apple ad-hoc. In the couple of instances that I have seen this the issue cleared up when I changed the channel. James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 1:10 PM, David Wang wrote: Thanks James. Here is my output: ccs-nss-macbook:~ nsteam$ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport -I agrCtlRSSI: -55 agrExtRSSI: 0 agrCtlNoise: -95 agrExtNoise: 0 state: running op mode: station lastTxRate: 54 maxRate: 54 lastAssocStatus: 0 802.11 auth: open link auth: wpa2 BSSID: 0:22:90:92:9c:be SSID: uog-wifi-secure MCS: -1 channel: 161 Any idea? And as Jeff suggested, WMM is enabled, all WCS rates are enabled, channel is indeed binding. And the windows client is definitely showing 240M on 802.11n with same AP. David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 4-Mar-09, at 11:00 AM, James Nesbitt wrote: Confirm what MCS rate you are connecting at, signal strength, and noise. Is your Mac client really bonding (should have a channel number with + or -1)? Make sure all of your data rates are enabled for the A band as well. user-111-123-111-1:~ $ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport -I agrCtlRSSI: -59 agrExtRSSI: -66 agrCtlNoise: -92 agrExtNoise: -92 state: running op mode: station lastTxRate: 300 maxRate: 270 lastAssocStatus: 0 802.11 auth: open link auth: unknown BSSID: 0:1f:9e:8d:70:fe SSID: test MCS: 15 channel: 44,1 James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 10:23 AM, David Wang wrote: I am testing Mac OS X 10.5.6 with cisco 1140 a/b/g/n APs, but only see the AirPort's speed up to 78M with 802.11n once, most time it stuck at 54M of 802.11a. Another Linksys 802.11n card can easily up to 240M with 40M channel on 802.11a/n. Do I miss something? David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 4-Mar-09, at 9:00 AM, David Wang wrote: Looks like Apple is listening: http://support.apple.com/downloads/AirPort_Client_Update_2009_001 About AirPort Client Update 2009-001 This update is recommended for all Intel-based Macintosh computers running Mac OS X 10.5.6. It addresses issues with roaming and network selection in dual- band environments. David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 23-Feb-09, at 8:53 PM, Lee H Badman wrote: William, I have no answers, but would encourage you to vigorously engage your local rep and ask for an ear in Apple's development. It took us a while, but feels like they are starting to get
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz
Lee, I've seen this depending on the WiFi chipset the Mac is using. For broadcom-based, it's a transmit rate of 270. For atheros-based, it's 300. What does System Profiler on the Mac report as the manufacture of the AirPort card? best, jeff Lee H Badman lhbad...@syr.edu 3/4/2009 2:47 PM One curious note I saw today between two Macs- one was definitely using short guard interval as configured on the AP, along with wide-channels and no legacy mojo to get to 300 Mbps stated data rate. But- the other would top put at 270- would not use SGI. As far as I can tell, there's no difference between the client machines, and there is nothing to set on the Mac... Going against an Aruba test environment. Curious. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv on behalf of Jeffrey Sessler Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 4:59 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz Concerning the channel 161 issue... While not specific to channel 161, there is an issue with the broadcom chipset as installed in Apple and other products. The Cisco unified AP's broadcast a world mode information item that the client should use to determine power level. In the case of the broadcom chips/driver, when it sees this information item in the beacon, it causes the driver to set the client power levels incorrectly (like at zero or bouncing). Lower channels seem to do better than higher, thus why channel 161 seems to have issues. There is currently no way to disable the world mode IE in unified, but cicso is working on it. I have new AP code that disables it, and it does fix the broadcom issues in my Macs. Broadcom is also working on a driver update, but who knows how long it's going to take before it shows up and clients update. best, Jeff James Nesbitt n...@duke.edu 3/4/2009 12:23 PM David, In your output, the channel reading does not indicate bonding (channel number followed by ,1 for above or ,-1 for below). Also, the SNR listed in this output is excellent, this client should have an MCS data rate of 14 or 15. Try changing the AP channel to anything but 161. I have been seeing some strange issues with Mac clients and at this point the only common thread is channel 161. I don't know if Apple is secretly doing something with channel 161 or what. Maybe to enhance the speed for Apple to Apple ad-hoc. In the couple of instances that I have seen this the issue cleared up when I changed the channel. James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 1:10 PM, David Wang wrote: Thanks James. Here is my output: ccs-nss-macbook:~ nsteam$ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport -I agrCtlRSSI: -55 agrExtRSSI: 0 agrCtlNoise: -95 agrExtNoise: 0 state: running op mode: station lastTxRate: 54 maxRate: 54 lastAssocStatus: 0 802.11 auth: open link auth: wpa2 BSSID: 0:22:90:92:9c:be SSID: uog-wifi-secure MCS: -1 channel: 161 Any idea? And as Jeff suggested, WMM is enabled, all WCS rates are enabled, channel is indeed binding. And the windows client is definitely showing 240M on 802.11n with same AP. David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 4-Mar-09, at 11:00 AM, James Nesbitt wrote: Confirm what MCS rate you are connecting at, signal strength, and noise. Is your Mac client really bonding (should have a channel number with + or -1)? Make sure all of your data rates are enabled for the A band as well. user-111-123-111-1:~ $ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport -I agrCtlRSSI: -59 agrExtRSSI: -66 agrCtlNoise: -92 agrExtNoise: -92 state: running op mode: station lastTxRate: 300 maxRate: 270 lastAssocStatus: 0 802.11 auth: open link auth: unknown BSSID: 0:1f:9e:8d:70:fe SSID: test MCS: 15 channel: 44,1 James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 10:23 AM, David Wang wrote: I am testing Mac OS X 10.5.6 with cisco 1140 a/b/g/n APs, but only see the AirPort's speed up to 78M with 802.11n once, most time it stuck at 54M of 802.11a. Another Linksys 802.11n card can easily up to 240M with 40M channel on 802.11a/n. Do I miss something? David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 4-Mar-09, at 9:00 AM, David Wang wrote: Looks like Apple is listening: http://support.apple.com/downloads/AirPort_Client_Update_2009_001 About AirPort Client Update 2009-001 This update is recommended for all Intel-based Macintosh computers running Mac OS X 10.5.6. It addresses issues with roaming and network selection in dual- band environments. David Wang Networking Services, CCS
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz
Jeff, Thanks for the specifics. James On Mar 4, 2009, at 4:59 PM, Jeffrey Sessler wrote: Concerning the channel 161 issue... While not specific to channel 161, there is an issue with the broadcom chipset as installed in Apple and other products. The Cisco unified AP's broadcast a world mode information item that the client should use to determine power level. In the case of the broadcom chips/driver, when it sees this information item in the beacon, it causes the driver to set the client power levels incorrectly (like at zero or bouncing). Lower channels seem to do better than higher, thus why channel 161 seems to have issues. There is currently no way to disable the world mode IE in unified, but cicso is working on it. I have new AP code that disables it, and it does fix the broadcom issues in my Macs. Broadcom is also working on a driver update, but who knows how long it's going to take before it shows up and clients update. best, Jeff James Nesbitt n...@duke.edu 3/4/2009 12:23 PM David, In your output, the channel reading does not indicate bonding (channel number followed by ,1 for above or ,-1 for below). Also, the SNR listed in this output is excellent, this client should have an MCS data rate of 14 or 15. Try changing the AP channel to anything but 161. I have been seeing some strange issues with Mac clients and at this point the only common thread is channel 161. I don't know if Apple is secretly doing something with channel 161 or what. Maybe to enhance the speed for Apple to Apple ad-hoc. In the couple of instances that I have seen this the issue cleared up when I changed the channel. James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 1:10 PM, David Wang wrote: Thanks James. Here is my output: ccs-nss-macbook:~ nsteam$ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport -I agrCtlRSSI: -55 agrExtRSSI: 0 agrCtlNoise: -95 agrExtNoise: 0 state: running op mode: station lastTxRate: 54 maxRate: 54 lastAssocStatus: 0 802.11 auth: open link auth: wpa2 BSSID: 0:22:90:92:9c:be SSID: uog-wifi-secure MCS: -1 channel: 161 Any idea? And as Jeff suggested, WMM is enabled, all WCS rates are enabled, channel is indeed binding. And the windows client is definitely showing 240M on 802.11n with same AP. David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 4-Mar-09, at 11:00 AM, James Nesbitt wrote: Confirm what MCS rate you are connecting at, signal strength, and noise. Is your Mac client really bonding (should have a channel number with + or -1)? Make sure all of your data rates are enabled for the A band as well. user-111-123-111-1:~ $ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport -I agrCtlRSSI: -59 agrExtRSSI: -66 agrCtlNoise: -92 agrExtNoise: -92 state: running op mode: station lastTxRate: 300 maxRate: 270 lastAssocStatus: 0 802.11 auth: open link auth: unknown BSSID: 0:1f:9e:8d:70:fe SSID: test MCS: 15 channel: 44,1 James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 10:23 AM, David Wang wrote: I am testing Mac OS X 10.5.6 with cisco 1140 a/b/g/n APs, but only see the AirPort's speed up to 78M with 802.11n once, most time it stuck at 54M of 802.11a. Another Linksys 802.11n card can easily up to 240M with 40M channel on 802.11a/n. Do I miss something? David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 4-Mar-09, at 9:00 AM, David Wang wrote: Looks like Apple is listening: http://support.apple.com/downloads/AirPort_Client_Update_2009_001 About AirPort Client Update 2009-001 This update is recommended for all Intel-based Macintosh computers running Mac OS X 10.5.6. It addresses issues with roaming and network selection in dual- band environments. David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 23-Feb-09, at 8:53 PM, Lee H Badman wrote: William, I have no answers, but would encourage you to vigorously engage your local rep and ask for an ear in Apple's development. It took us a while, but feels like they are starting to get that their products are actually less than perfect on the WLAN. -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of William Green Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:56 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz We continue to experience problems with Mac OSX devices preferring 2.4GHz (g) networks instead of 5GHz (a/n). We want devices at 5GHz whenever possible. From the little we can tell the pllst (/Library/Preferences/SystemConfiguration/
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz
When Aruba came on our campus they explained the difference between Broadcom Macs and Atheros Mac...we all rushed to the computerstore get the last Atheros based ones! The Broadcom on Macs cannot do Short Guard Interval The Atheros can (0x168C is for Atheros on Mac profiler) Here is a table of throughput for Short Guard Interval (400ns) and Standard Guard Interval (800ns) 800ns standard guard interval: 1 spatial stream (SS) in 20 MHz gives 65 Mbps. 2 SS - 20 MHz = 130. 1 SS in 40 Mhz gives 135. 2 SS in 40 Mhz gives 270. 400ns short guard interval: 1 spatial stream (SS) in 20 MHz gives 72 Mbps. 2 SS - 20 MHz = 144. 1 SS in 40 Mhz gives 150. 2 SS in 40 Mhz gives 300. On Mar 4, 2009, at 7:19 PM, Jeffrey Sessler wrote: Lee, I've seen this depending on the WiFi chipset the Mac is using. For broadcom-based, it's a transmit rate of 270. For atheros-based, it's 300. What does System Profiler on the Mac report as the manufacture of the AirPort card? best, jeff Lee H Badman lhbad...@syr.edu 3/4/2009 2:47 PM One curious note I saw today between two Macs- one was definitely using short guard interval as configured on the AP, along with wide- channels and no legacy mojo to get to 300 Mbps stated data rate. But- the other would top put at 270- would not use SGI. As far as I can tell, there's no difference between the client machines, and there is nothing to set on the Mac... Going against an Aruba test environment. Curious. -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv on behalf of Jeffrey Sessler Sent: Wed 3/4/2009 4:59 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz Concerning the channel 161 issue... While not specific to channel 161, there is an issue with the broadcom chipset as installed in Apple and other products. The Cisco unified AP's broadcast a world mode information item that the client should use to determine power level. In the case of the broadcom chips/driver, when it sees this information item in the beacon, it causes the driver to set the client power levels incorrectly (like at zero or bouncing). Lower channels seem to do better than higher, thus why channel 161 seems to have issues. There is currently no way to disable the world mode IE in unified, but cicso is working on it. I have new AP code that disables it, and it does fix the broadcom issues in my Macs. Broadcom is also working on a driver update, but who knows how long it's going to take before it shows up and clients update. best, Jeff James Nesbitt n...@duke.edu 3/4/2009 12:23 PM David, In your output, the channel reading does not indicate bonding (channel number followed by ,1 for above or ,-1 for below). Also, the SNR listed in this output is excellent, this client should have an MCS data rate of 14 or 15. Try changing the AP channel to anything but 161. I have been seeing some strange issues with Mac clients and at this point the only common thread is channel 161. I don't know if Apple is secretly doing something with channel 161 or what. Maybe to enhance the speed for Apple to Apple ad-hoc. In the couple of instances that I have seen this the issue cleared up when I changed the channel. James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 1:10 PM, David Wang wrote: Thanks James. Here is my output: ccs-nss-macbook:~ nsteam$ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport -I agrCtlRSSI: -55 agrExtRSSI: 0 agrCtlNoise: -95 agrExtNoise: 0 state: running op mode: station lastTxRate: 54 maxRate: 54 lastAssocStatus: 0 802.11 auth: open link auth: wpa2 BSSID: 0:22:90:92:9c:be SSID: uog-wifi-secure MCS: -1 channel: 161 Any idea? And as Jeff suggested, WMM is enabled, all WCS rates are enabled, channel is indeed binding. And the windows client is definitely showing 240M on 802.11n with same AP. David Wang Networking Services, CCS www.uoguelph.ca 519-824-4120 ext 52046 On 4-Mar-09, at 11:00 AM, James Nesbitt wrote: Confirm what MCS rate you are connecting at, signal strength, and noise. Is your Mac client really bonding (should have a channel number with + or -1)? Make sure all of your data rates are enabled for the A band as well. user-111-123-111-1:~ $ /System/Library/PrivateFrameworks/ Apple80211.framework/Versions/Current/Resources/airport -I agrCtlRSSI: -59 agrExtRSSI: -66 agrCtlNoise: -92 agrExtNoise: -92 state: running op mode: station lastTxRate: 300 maxRate: 270 lastAssocStatus: 0 802.11 auth: open link auth: unknown BSSID: 0:1f:9e:8d:70:fe SSID: test MCS: 15 channel: 44,1 James Nesbitt Duke University On Mar 4, 2009, at 10:23 AM, David Wang wrote: I am testing Mac OS X 10.5.6 with cisco 1140 a/b/g/n APs, but only see the AirPort's speed up
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz
William, I have no answers, but would encourage you to vigorously engage your local rep and ask for an ear in Apple's development. It took us a while, but feels like they are starting to get that their products are actually less than perfect on the WLAN. -Lee Lee H. Badman Wireless/Network Engineer Information Technology and Services Syracuse University 315 443-3003 -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:wireless-...@listserv.educause.edu] On Behalf Of William Green Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:56 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz We continue to experience problems with Mac OSX devices preferring 2.4GHz (g) networks instead of 5GHz (a/n). We want devices at 5GHz whenever possible. From the little we can tell the pllst (/Library/Preferences/SystemConfiguration/com.apple.airport.preferences. plist) appears to be remembering channels seen across our campus-wide SSID, and then chooses 2.4GHz for whatever reasons. If you delete the slower channels in the plist and don't change APs, it stays on the 5GHz channel. Unfortunately our wireless infrastructure is mixed (lots of g only) so a user will quickly get a 2.4GHz channel in their plist which sticks them in 2.4GHz again. Does anyone have additional information about this problem? Work-arounds (on a campus scale)? Dates for fixes? -- William C. Green e-mail: gr...@mail.utexas.edu Director, Networking phone: +1 512-475-9295 ITS (Information Technology Services) fax: +1 512-471-2449 University of Texas 1 University Station Stop C3800 Austin, TX 78712 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Mac OSX and 5Ghz
Have you considered defining another SSID for high-speed wireless communications? We use the Cisco 4404-100 Wireless LAN Controller solution with 5.1.151.0 code and it allows us to set a radio policy of 802.11a only (and apparently 5 ghz n based on our testing) on a WLAN. We have a non-broadcast SSID defined to pilot this and it seems to work based on the little testing we have done so far. (I use an Intel MacBook Pro with 10.4 and it is 802.11n capable.) Barron Hulver Director of Networking, Operations, and Systems Center for Information Technology Oberlin College Oberlin, OH 44074 William Green wrote: We continue to experience problems with Mac OSX devices preferring 2.4GHz (g) networks instead of 5GHz (a/n). We want devices at 5GHz whenever possible. From the little we can tell the pllst (/Library/Preferences/SystemConfiguration/com.apple.airport.preferences.plist) appears to be remembering channels seen across our campus-wide SSID, and then chooses 2.4GHz for whatever reasons. If you delete the slower channels in the plist and don't change APs, it stays on the 5GHz channel. Unfortunately our wireless infrastructure is mixed (lots of g only) so a user will quickly get a 2.4GHz channel in their plist which sticks them in 2.4GHz again. Does anyone have additional information about this problem? Work-arounds (on a campus scale)? Dates for fixes? ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
