Re: [WiX-users] Question re WIX other MSI installer tools...
A few comments off the top of my head: Last time I looked, the SQL Server install was already a bundle of separate MSI files, and I can't tell if you are integrating that into your own install, but that could be tricky. SQL lets you create an ini file that you pass to the install, so that may be useful, if you collect the data and make that ini file, then call the SQL setup with that file. I think Chris is right about keeping the SQL install separate as much as you can. When managers have visions they often forget the nuts and bolts and focus on the UX. They don't mean silent install, because you'll need a progress bar, and if there are errors then they'll need showing. And who will show a FilesInUse dialog? That means supplying your own UI that collects the info through callback (MsiSetExternalUIRewcord or the newer external UI features). You'll need logging for debugging, decisions about what to do if one of the MSIs fails etc. Plus caching the fact that one MSI might need a reboot. So writing your own is possible but there is a lot to consider. Phil Wilson On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 5:07 AM, Christopher Painter chr...@iswix.comwrote: I'm a fan of WiX and InstallShield. doesn't make me too popular on either mailing list. :-) That said, I personally no longer attempt to encapsulate MS Sql Server installation. It's just too complicated with too many choices and too many ways to fail. IMO if you have a server product you should have a DBA ( or atleast someone who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night ) install SQL server per the standards of your organization. If it's a client workstation that just needs a datasource, I'd suggest there are better alternatives. From there you have to decide if the installer has any interaction with the data tier or if it's all handled post installation via a first run configuration pattern. If you go with the latter, the BA UI gets a lot simpler. (That sexy VS BA hardly asks any questions at all. Nor does the WiX BA.) If you go with the former, you're going to need a story for interviewing and validation connection string information and then passing that to the installer to execute SQL scripts and/or modify config files with connection string. If you dump the need for silent bullet proof and highly customized installation of MSSQL, I think this is merely a moderately complex installer. If you drop the installers interaction with SQLSERVER then it becomes a simple installer. Otherwise it's highly complex. Labor estimates depend highly on skill and experience. Maybe one day we'll have reusable code that handles all the messy details and snaps into a custom BA. Blair could comment on whether that is possible. From: Blair Murri os...@live.com Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 9:46 PM To: General discussion about the WiX toolset. wix-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Question re WIX other MSI installer tools... The in-box BAs do not provide most of that experience but burn totally supports it. All the pieces to manage mapping burn variables to MSI properties and controlling application of each item in the chain are clearly present. A domain-specific UI AND domain-specific processing of gathered information will cost you development effort no matter which underlying toolset you choose to use. In my opinion what you have described would be easier to implement on burn than on IS, as the interface can be understood with some study and experimentation and debugging, past the first bootstrap, is actually easier than the other implementations I've seen that can approach what you describe. I think you are either underestimating the effort required to do what you want with other systems, are overestimating the effort required with burn+custom BA, or you don't quite see the difference between burn and the stdba. -Blair StevenOgilvie sogil...@msn.com wrote: Burn does NOT allow you to collect information from the user and then pass that information to the MSI's it is a tool to allow you to install pre-requisites and handle your software installer... To create a user experience that collects information it would require a CUSTOM BA... Steve -- View this message in context: http://windows-installer-xml-wix-toolset.687559.n2.nabble.com/Question-re-WI X-other-MSI-installer-tools-tp7590687p7590690.html Sent from the wix-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
Re: [WiX-users] Question re WIX other MSI installer tools...
I'm a fan of WiX and InstallShield. doesn't make me too popular on either mailing list. :-) That said, I personally no longer attempt to encapsulate MS Sql Server installation. It's just too complicated with too many choices and too many ways to fail. IMO if you have a server product you should have a DBA ( or atleast someone who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night ) install SQL server per the standards of your organization. If it's a client workstation that just needs a datasource, I'd suggest there are better alternatives. From there you have to decide if the installer has any interaction with the data tier or if it's all handled post installation via a first run configuration pattern. If you go with the latter, the BA UI gets a lot simpler. (That sexy VS BA hardly asks any questions at all. Nor does the WiX BA.) If you go with the former, you're going to need a story for interviewing and validation connection string information and then passing that to the installer to execute SQL scripts and/or modify config files with connection string. If you dump the need for silent bullet proof and highly customized installation of MSSQL, I think this is merely a moderately complex installer. If you drop the installers interaction with SQLSERVER then it becomes a simple installer. Otherwise it's highly complex. Labor estimates depend highly on skill and experience. Maybe one day we'll have reusable code that handles all the messy details and snaps into a custom BA. Blair could comment on whether that is possible. From: Blair Murri os...@live.com Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 9:46 PM To: General discussion about the WiX toolset. wix-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Question re WIX other MSI installer tools... The in-box BAs do not provide most of that experience but burn totally supports it. All the pieces to manage mapping burn variables to MSI properties and controlling application of each item in the chain are clearly present. A domain-specific UI AND domain-specific processing of gathered information will cost you development effort no matter which underlying toolset you choose to use. In my opinion what you have described would be easier to implement on burn than on IS, as the interface can be understood with some study and experimentation and debugging, past the first bootstrap, is actually easier than the other implementations I've seen that can approach what you describe. I think you are either underestimating the effort required to do what you want with other systems, are overestimating the effort required with burn+custom BA, or you don't quite see the difference between burn and the stdba. -Blair StevenOgilvie sogil...@msn.com wrote: Burn does NOT allow you to collect information from the user and then pass that information to the MSI's it is a tool to allow you to install pre-requisites and handle your software installer... To create a user experience that collects information it would require a CUSTOM BA... Steve -- View this message in context: http://windows-installer-xml-wix-toolset.687559.n2.nabble.com/Question-re-WI X-other-MSI-installer-tools-tp7590687p7590690.html Sent from the wix-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
Re: [WiX-users] Question re WIX other MSI installer tools... [P]
Classification: Public Sorry, I should have been more clear on my last comment. I meant Burn out of the box does not support asking questions. That would be a custom BA, most likely a WPF application frontend with BA backend to handle all the necessary MSI stuff :) Steve -Original Message- From: Blair Murri [mailto:os...@live.com] Sent: November-15-13 10:37 PM To: General discussion about the WiX toolset. Subject: Re: [WiX-users] Question re WIX other MSI installer tools... The in-box BAs do not provide most of that experience but burn totally supports it. All the pieces to manage mapping burn variables to MSI properties and controlling application of each item in the chain are clearly present. A domain-specific UI AND domain-specific processing of gathered information will cost you development effort no matter which underlying toolset you choose to use. In my opinion what you have described would be easier to implement on burn than on IS, as the interface can be understood with some study and experimentation and debugging, past the first bootstrap, is actually easier than the other implementations I've seen that can approach what you describe. I think you are either underestimating the effort required to do what you want with other systems, are overestimating the effort required with burn+custom BA, or you don't quite see the difference between burn and the stdba. -Blair StevenOgilvie sogil...@msn.com wrote: Burn does NOT allow you to collect information from the user and then pass that information to the MSI's it is a tool to allow you to install pre-requisites and handle your software installer... To create a user experience that collects information it would require a CUSTOM BA... Steve -- View this message in context: http://windows-installer-xml-wix-toolset.687559.n2.nabble.com/Question-re-WIX-other-MSI-installer-tools-tp7590687p7590690.html Sent from the wix-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users This message has been marked as Public by Steven Ogilvie on November-16-13 10:59:00 AM. The above classification labels were added to the message by TITUS Message Classification. For more information visit www.titus.com. -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
[WiX-users] Question re WIX other MSI installer tools...
Hi, I work for a small company and we are using WIX for our Enterprise software. We have a Server application with Services and use a SQL Server database. Our Client Software connects to the Server/Database to get client configuration info via the Services that is also installed with the Client software. So we use SQL Server/.NET 4.0/IIS 7.x+/NServiceBus + In house services It is partly my fault that I didn’t communicate what WIX can/cannot do what Burn can/cannot do. Product Management had a “vision” of a software install of our Server compared to the MS SQL Server install (yuck)… an executable asks questions and then the MSI’s run silently using the info passed as MSI properties… And to look “sexy” like the MS Visual Studio 2012 install. We have pre requisites that we install… and Burn is an awesome tool, but the UI is how to say politely “bland”. I have been using Neil’s Extended BA DLL and making modifications to suit our needs which has helped… I have tried to convey that burn is not meant as a “tool to gather information and then kick off MSI” but rather a tool to install pre requisites and install our software product. There has been talk that maybe WIX isn’t the tool we should use but a COTS application like InstallShield etc… I have tried to convey that, that will not solve the issue of what they want. As well InstallShield and other tools are expensive, support is expensive, upgrades are expensive… I try to tell them that yes you can have an information gathering tool, but a COTS application will not do that… that would have to be a in house developed tool that will take some time and effort… Have I missed anything else? Thanks, Steve Btw I really enjoy using WIX, I was an InstallShield/Wise/InstallAnywhere user and I have been converted -- View this message in context: http://windows-installer-xml-wix-toolset.687559.n2.nabble.com/Question-re-WIX-other-MSI-installer-tools-tp7590687.html Sent from the wix-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] Question re WIX other MSI installer tools...
They are right, burn is a tool to allow you to collect data and chain some MSIs silently, but you will need to make a custom BA to get the most from it. The visual studio installer is a custom burn BA that does just that. -Original Message- From: StevenOgilvie [mailto:sogil...@msn.com] Sent: 15 November 2013 17:49 To: wix-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [WiX-users] Question re WIX other MSI installer tools... Hi, I work for a small company and we are using WIX for our Enterprise software. We have a Server application with Services and use a SQL Server database. Our Client Software connects to the Server/Database to get client configuration info via the Services that is also installed with the Client software. So we use SQL Server/.NET 4.0/IIS 7.x+/NServiceBus + In house services It is partly my fault that I didn’t communicate what WIX can/cannot do what Burn can/cannot do. Product Management had a “vision” of a software install of our Server compared to the MS SQL Server install (yuck)… an executable asks questions and then the MSI’s run silently using the info passed as MSI properties… And to look “sexy” like the MS Visual Studio 2012 install. We have pre requisites that we install… and Burn is an awesome tool, but the UI is how to say politely “bland”. I have been using Neil’s Extended BA DLL and making modifications to suit our needs which has helped… I have tried to convey that burn is not meant as a “tool to gather information and then kick off MSI” but rather a tool to install pre requisites and install our software product. There has been talk that maybe WIX isn’t the tool we should use but a COTS application like InstallShield etc… I have tried to convey that, that will not solve the issue of what they want. As well InstallShield and other tools are expensive, support is expensive, upgrades are expensive… I try to tell them that yes you can have an information gathering tool, but a COTS application will not do that… that would have to be a in house developed tool that will take some time and effort… Have I missed anything else? Thanks, Steve Btw I really enjoy using WIX, I was an InstallShield/Wise/InstallAnywhere user and I have been converted J -- View this message in context: http://windows-installer-xml-wix-toolset.687559.n2.nabble.com/Question-re-WIX-other-MSI-installer-tools-tp7590687.html Sent from the wix-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users SDL PLC confidential, all rights reserved. If you are not the intended recipient of this mail SDL requests and requires that you delete it without acting upon or copying any of its contents, and we further request that you advise us. SDL PLC is a public limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 02675207. Registered address: Globe House, Clivemont Road, Maidenhead, Berkshire SL6 7DY, UK. This message has been scanned for malware by Websense. www.websense.com -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] Question re WIX other MSI installer tools...
Burn does NOT allow you to collect information from the user and then pass that information to the MSI's it is a tool to allow you to install pre-requisites and handle your software installer... To create a user experience that collects information it would require a CUSTOM BA... Steve -- View this message in context: http://windows-installer-xml-wix-toolset.687559.n2.nabble.com/Question-re-WIX-other-MSI-installer-tools-tp7590687p7590690.html Sent from the wix-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
Re: [WiX-users] Question re WIX other MSI installer tools...
The in-box BAs do not provide most of that experience but burn totally supports it. All the pieces to manage mapping burn variables to MSI properties and controlling application of each item in the chain are clearly present. A domain-specific UI AND domain-specific processing of gathered information will cost you development effort no matter which underlying toolset you choose to use. In my opinion what you have described would be easier to implement on burn than on IS, as the interface can be understood with some study and experimentation and debugging, past the first bootstrap, is actually easier than the other implementations I've seen that can approach what you describe. I think you are either underestimating the effort required to do what you want with other systems, are overestimating the effort required with burn+custom BA, or you don't quite see the difference between burn and the stdba. -Blair StevenOgilvie sogil...@msn.com wrote: Burn does NOT allow you to collect information from the user and then pass that information to the MSI's it is a tool to allow you to install pre-requisites and handle your software installer... To create a user experience that collects information it would require a CUSTOM BA... Steve -- View this message in context: http://windows-installer-xml-wix-toolset.687559.n2.nabble.com/Question-re-WIX-other-MSI-installer-tools-tp7590687p7590690.html Sent from the wix-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users -- DreamFactory - Open Source REST JSON Services for HTML5 Native Apps OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server. Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ WiX-users mailing list WiX-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wix-users
