Re: [WSG] Dutch guild of front-end developers in the making

[Lucien Stals]

I just started doing a Cert IV in Assessment and Training so that I'd be a 
qualified trainer (not necessarily for the web), and I was surprised to find 
out that the training packages for  qualifications are normally only reviewed 
every 5 years. In many industries that would be okay. But on the web?

I was also surprised to find some training packages for IT related certificates 
(here in Australia ) which included a unit on writing a web documents which 
claimed DHTML was a valid markup language.

The unit "(ICAB4135A) Create a simple mark up language document to 
specification" says...
"Mark-up language  May include but are not limited to HTML, DHTML, XHTML, SGML, 
VRML, XML. "

That unit is part of a Cert IV in IT (Websites). 

Lucien.



Lucien Stals
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2007 at  3:53 PM, "Matthew Pennell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote: 
> On 03/07/07, Sander Aarts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>  Yesterday, PPK announced that he and others are busy setting up a Dutch
>> guild of Front- end Developers:
>> http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2007/07/gilde_van_front.html (only
>> in Dutch for now).
>>
>> The general idea is to professionalize front- end development, emphesize
>> the fact that it is in fact a branche of its own and to set up a
>> certification system by which customers can easily distinguish between
>> modern developers, using web standards, and old skool table hackers.
>>
> 
> Interesting. Whenever the subject has arisen before, it's usually been felt
> that because the pace of change is so rapid in web development,
> certification is practically useless -  you might have qualified for a
> certificate a year ago, but that's no guarantee that you're still using the
> most up- to- date techniques.

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Re: [WSG] Dutch guild of front-end developers in the making

[Sander Aarts]

Matthew Pennell schreef:
On 03/07/07, *Sander Aarts* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Yesterday, PPK announced that he and others are busy setting up a
Dutch guild of Front-end Developers:
http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2007/07/gilde_van_front.html
(only in Dutch for now).

The general idea is to professionalize front-end development,
emphesize the fact that it is in fact a branche of its own and to
set up a certification system by which customers can easily
distinguish between modern developers, using web standards, and
old skool table hackers.


Interesting. Whenever the subject has arisen before, it's usually been 
felt that because the pace of change is so rapid in web development, 
certification is practically useless - you might have qualified for a 
certificate a year ago, but that's no guarantee that you're still 
using the most up-to-date techniques.


True, and that's one of the issues they're working on. There will 
probably be different certification levels and as it seems now the 
highest levels will need to be updated regularly.
The fact that the pase is so rapid makes it even harder for customers to 
know who is old skool and who is up to date.


A one year old certificate, as you mentioned, will never be very 
outdated I guess. Unless the exam was already outdated of course. Sure 
there will be new techniques or best practices, but not that many become 
standards instantly.


cheers,
Sander



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Re: [WSG] Dutch guild of front-end developers in the making

[Matthew Pennell]

On 03/07/07, Sander Aarts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Yesterday, PPK announced that he and others are busy setting up a Dutch
guild of Front-end Developers:
http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2007/07/gilde_van_front.html (only
in Dutch for now).

The general idea is to professionalize front-end development, emphesize
the fact that it is in fact a branche of its own and to set up a
certification system by which customers can easily distinguish between
modern developers, using web standards, and old skool table hackers.



Interesting. Whenever the subject has arisen before, it's usually been felt
that because the pace of change is so rapid in web development,
certification is practically useless - you might have qualified for a
certificate a year ago, but that's no guarantee that you're still using the
most up-to-date techniques.

--




Matthew Pennell //
m: 07904 432123 //
www.thewatchmakerproject.com


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[WSG] Dutch guild of front-end developers in the making

[Sander Aarts]

Hello all,

Here's some front-end news from the Netherlands:


Yesterday, PPK announced that he and others are busy setting up a Dutch 
guild of Front-end Developers: 
http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2007/07/gilde_van_front.html 
(only in Dutch for now).


The general idea is to professionalize front-end development, emphesize 
the fact that it is in fact a branche of its own and to set up a 
certification system by which customers can easily distinguish between 
modern developers, using web standards, and old skool table hackers.
It even seems that the Dutch government and the Dutch platform of 
internet companies will start using this certification in the future.


cheers,
Sander




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Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x

[Sander Aarts]

Sarah Peeke (XERT) schreef:

Hi Jermayn,

  

Just a quick question.
Why we still coding/ hacking for IE5??? 


Also, my website browser stats have IE5.x at about 2% - not much I know,
but when you also consider Opera, IE5 Mac and Safari also share 1-2% of
my audience each, then, by looking after this bunch I'm satisfying
roughly 6-8% of my audience.
  


The difference is that people who use Opera or Safari chose a decent 
browser to visit your site. The ones using IE5 don't really seem to 
matter (or they're still using Win95). Of course it's a good thing to 
provide every visitor with the best experience possible, but personaly 
I'd rather optimize for (and thereby stimulate the use of) decent modern 
browsers than for IE5.


cheers,
Sander


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Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[Sander Aarts]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] schreef:

I think you missed the major point of the last reply - do you have any
evidence that what you are doing _does_ make things easier for AT users?
  


I base that on research done by others (I'm not a researcher). For 
instance http://www.usability.com.au/resources/ozewai2005/#section42 
(deep link to recommendations).



I have been told in the past that the way that AT users
'browse' a page is very different to the way that a fully sighted user
does, so I am curious as to whether 'skip to' links are any use,
particularly when in multiples.
  


First of all, it's not all just about AT. Skip links can make things 
easier for any user of a text browser or device with a small screen like 
mobile phones.


Of course AT users browse a page in a different way than avarege browser 
users do. Isn't that what the AT is meant for, providing a different way 
to browse the page?



About multiple 'skip to' links... I must admit that I've not seen a test 
that proves it does add extra accessibility, but neither have I seen one 
saying it doesn't. Logic thinking tells me that if 1 or 2 'skip to' 
links improve accessibility, 5 or 7 will probably not make a page 
inaccessible. You may say that it adds extra links to step through, but 
in fact it does a similar thing as some ATs do as well: provide 
shortcuts to major parts of the page. ATs that do so use headers in the 
page to link to. I do a similar thing although I use far from all 
headers. By starting with linking to the content and putting the links 
to the various kinds/levels of navigation at the end of this little 
'skip to' menu, the menu itself can easily be skipped for the most part 
as well.


cheers,
Sander




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Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x

[Sarah Peeke (XERT)]

Hi Jermayn,

> Just a quick question.
> Why we still coding/ hacking for IE5??? 

Good point.

It's just that the site works very well in IE5.5 *except* for this
problem - which, by the way, I've just about fixed.

Also, my website browser stats have IE5.x at about 2% - not much I know,
but when you also consider Opera, IE5 Mac and Safari also share 1-2% of
my audience each, then, by looking after this bunch I'm satisfying
roughly 6-8% of my audience.

Thanks
Sarah



-- 
XERT Communications

web design & development

Geofeat International

all things green, eco-friendly & organic

The Virtual Collective

join today & help create one world & one humanity


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Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x

[Jermayn Parker]

Just a quick question.
Why we still coding/ hacking for IE5???



On 7/2/07, Sarah Peeke (XERT) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi Nick,

I guess I was hoping to fix the problem(s), rather than just rely on a
hack. Other suggestions appreciated.

> So use a Conditional Comment - ?

> > 2. If I don't include a dreaded hack in my css (which I'd really
> > like to remove because my style sheet doesn't validate)

Sarah




--
JP2 Designs
http://www.jp2designs.com

http://www.germworks.net


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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[Micky Hulse]

David Little wrote:

These solutions are interesting, but I'm only willing to spend time
looking at them if:


Seems like you are over-thinking it.

swfObject or UFO.

I personally prefer the latter mostly due to reasons I stated before 
(cms... needing access to certain params for dynamic setup.) But both do 
the job extremely well.


For swfObject (I assume UFO too), you can put anything you want in the 
alt div.


Check out this site:



View source and find #header... They opted to put a  menu in the alt 
div due to the default menu being Flash based. They also you a screen 
grab of the flash movie... It is pretty seamless... Use the web dev 
toolbar for FF and turn off JS.


Trust us. This is easy. Your page will validate. Move on with your life.

:)

Cheers,
Micky


--
Wishlists: 
   Switch: 
 BCC?: 
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RE: [WSG] Page Structure

[Christie Mason]

IF you are doing user-centric design, then the question becomes "What's the
most important part of the page to the USER?"   Once you look at it from
that viewpoint, then the company name is not the most important.

The company name has a visual importance for branding and keeping the
clients happy, but it does not have the highest contextual importance for
users and SEO.

Christie Mason

-Original Message-
From: Thierry Koblentz

I don't know why we're talking about Newspapers and/or Books here. This is
not print isn't?
There is not such thing that covers and front pages on the web.
IMO, because users can get to a document through various ways, I believe the
company name is - in fact - the most important thing on the page.





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RE: [WSG] Page Structure

[Thierry Koblentz]

> On Behalf Of Frank Palinkas

> I would say the most important _thing_ in a newspaper is the title
> of lead story for that part of the day. The

I don't know why we're talking about Newspapers and/or Books here. This is
not print isn't?
There is not such thing that covers and front pages on the web. 
IMO, because users can get to a document through various ways, I believe the
company name is - in fact - the most important thing on the page.

---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com




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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

[Stuart Foulstone]

Hi,

One thing usability studies HAVE found is that, when people are searching
for a particulsr item on the Web, they barely glance at the logo and tag
line.


What they do is scan the headers on the page. If they find an interesting
header, they'll speed-read the associated text to see if it's relevant to
what they are looking for.  If they don't find anything interesting in the
headers, they'll move on to another Website.


A company's marketing team generally don't understand this behaviour, and
thus the most important thing to them is the branding (they get paid for
promoting it - it justifies their existence).


So if you stress the importance of the logo, etc above the impportance of
the actual content you'll satisfy the company marketing goons, but lose
potential customers.

The choice is yours.

I'm also certain that newspapers think the most important thing on their
front page is the banner headlines - this is what attracts new customers
and increases circulation.  They pay people to come up with a better
headline than their competitors.


Stuart

On Mon, July 2, 2007 2:16 pm, Andrew Maben wrote:
> On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Tony Crockford wrote:
>
>> Why is the company logo and strap line the most important thing on
>> every page of a web site.
>
> OR - why does "most important *thing* on the page" have to correspond
> to ?
>
> Take a newspaper: arguably the most important *thing* on the front
> page is the name of the paper. Does that correspond to ? I think
> not: surely  belongs to the most important news item on the page?
>
> Andrew
>
> 109B SE 4th Av
> Gainesville
> FL 32601
>
> Cell: 352-870-6661
>
> http://www.andrewmaben.net
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need
> instructions."
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451


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RE: [WSG] Page Structure

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Andrew,

 

I would say the most important _thing_ in a newspaper is the title of lead
story for that part of the day. The analogy to a web document would be the
topic name of the page and be marked up as the h1. The name of the newspaper
itself doesn't offer any timely information or _news_. Thus, I would limit
that name to a masthead, along with a tagline if it's part of the
identity/logo of the publishing house.

 

Kind regards,

Frank

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: Monday, 02 July, 2007 15:17 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Cc: Andrew Maben
Subject: Re: [WSG] Page Structure

 

On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Tony Crockford wrote:





Why is the company logo and strap line the most important thing on every page
of a web site.

 

OR - why does "most important *thing* on the page" have to correspond to
?

 

Take a newspaper: arguably the most important *thing* on the front page is
the name of the paper. Does that correspond to ? I think not: surely 
belongs to the most important news item on the page?

 

Andrew

 

109B SE 4th Av

Gainesville

FL 32601

 

Cell: 352-870-6661

 

http://www.andrewmaben.  net

[EMAIL PROTECTED]  

 

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions."





 


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Re: [WSG] Page Structure

[Andrew Maben]

On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Tony Crockford wrote:

Why is the company logo and strap line the most important thing on  
every page of a web site.


OR - why does "most important *thing* on the page" have to correspond  
to ?


Take a newspaper: arguably the most important *thing* on the front  
page is the name of the paper. Does that correspond to ? I think  
not: surely  belongs to the most important news item on the page?


Andrew

109B SE 4th Av
Gainesville
FL 32601

Cell: 352-870-6661

http://www.andrewmaben.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need  
instructions."





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Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[Joshua Street]

On 7/2/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I am curious as to whether 'skip to' links are any use,
particularly when in multiples.


I can't speak for AT users per se, but it sure is helpful when
browsing on my mobile device (a Sony Ericsson V630i... not a PDA, so
scrolling is that much more painful).

--
Joshua Street

http://josh.st/blog/
+61 (0) 425 808 469


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RE: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[michael.brockington]

 
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman
>Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 1:08 AM
>To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?
>
>
>On 30 Jun 2007, at 9:58 AM, Sander Aarts wrote:
>
>> > So you don't care at all about the cognitively challenged visitors
>> to your site then?
>>
>> You're challenging me now as I don't have a clue what your talking 
>> about. How does adding 'skip links' make a site less 
>usable/accessible 
>> for cognitively challenged people?
>
>I think that was an ironic reference to the KISS principle...
>

Semi-ironic, perhaps.

If something is too complex to understand, then adding a map rarely
helps.

Mike


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RE: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[michael.brockington]

I think you missed the major point of the last reply - do you have any
evidence that what you are doing _does_ make things easier for AT users?
Many of the other good ideas that people have had, have been proved to
be counter-productive, such as access keys that conflict with OS
shortcuts. I have been told in the past that the way that AT users
'browse' a page is very different to the way that a fully sighted user
does, so I am curious as to whether 'skip to' links are any use,
particularly when in multiples.

Regards,
Mike


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Re: [WSG] Font-size 62.5% problem

[Paul Collins]

Thanks for your replies everyone.

My target would be Firefox, Safari, IE, Opera. This seems to have
worked in the past on those browsers. It has worked fine for me in the
past.

Kepler, I tried adding it inline to the body tag, still can't get it
to work. Tony, I tried getting rid of the minimum font-size in firefox
and still no result!

Can't for the life of me figure this out!

Cheers



On 02/07/07, Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 2 Jul 2007, at 3:10 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

> Paul Collins apparently typed:
>
>> I seem to be having trouble assigning the font-size:62.5%
>
> Please note that...

Toldja.

N
___
omnivision. websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/



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Re: [WSG] Font-size 62.5% problem

[Tony Crockford]

Paul Collins wrote:

The font stays slightly larger than 11px, when
I set it to 1.1em. this has worked fine on other sites, so not sure
why it isn't working here. Any ideas?


check that you haven't set a minimum font size in your browser preferences.

;)


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Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x

[David Little]

Seconded -- compared to all the other hacks you'll need to make when
coding for IE browsers, conditional comments are the least of your
worries; in fact they are your friend!

On 02/07/07, Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 2 Jul 2007, at 6:09 PM, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:

> I guess I was hoping to fix the problem(s), rather than just rely on a
> hack. Other suggestions appreciated.

Fair enough, but I'd say your chances of getting the one set of css
rules to display correctly in all browsers are pretty slim - especially
if you want to include browsers as flawed as Exploder 5.x. Even MS
themselves accept how hard this is - hence CCs.

I routinely serve as many as three alternative stylesheets vis CCs for
different versions of IE. They only need to contain a handful of rules
necessary to override the correct values served to compliant browsers.

Whether you consider CCs a hack is, I guess, subjective. But your code
will validate, and they're easy to remove with a global search and
replace if and when the time comes that you don't need them any more.

Why beat your head against the wall of buggy browsers when the
manufacturer themselves supplies a workaround?

N
___
omnivision. websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/



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--
David Little

-e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-w: www.littled.net


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Re: [WSG] Best practice embedding a Quicktime/Flash video

[David Little]

These solutions are interesting, but I'm only willing to spend time
looking at them if:

* Users without Javascript but with Flash can still view the movies
* I can integrate them with my CMS (Plone) -- I'll need to generate
the code dynamically
* I don't have to litter the  with Javascript snippets
* My page validation doesn't break as a result.

I've only given them a cursory glance so far, so with any luck they
will fulfil these criteria, although I notice that UFO injects 
tags via Javascript.

Thanks for the heads up about these -- if I had the time I'd love to
compare all the different methods. Maybe I can after this project's
finished ;-)

David



On 30/06/07, Tate Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 29/06/2007, at 6:52 PM, David Little wrote:

>> I see your point here. The only thing I wonder about, and forgive me
>> if I am just in need of more coffee here, but what does a user get if
>> they *choose* not use Flash? Is alt-content handled?
>
> It shows my limited knowledge of this area that I wasn't aware that
> you could put your alternative content within the  tag --
> that's going to be very useful. This seems to be the best way forward
> for me at present with my limited time frame without relying on
> Javascript libraries.
>

The problem with using the  tag to embed content such as
flash presents some problems in IE7. By default, these controls are
"disabled" and users must click the object to "activate" it. This is
the result of a company that held a patent on embedding content, and
took MS to court over it. However, the patent doesn't include
embedding inline objects (Such as using javascript to embed flash).

I'd strongly encourage you to check out SWFObject. It's quick and
easy to implement. You can also provide alternate content for users
without flash or javascript. That said, the object tag *does* support
alternate content as well.

SWFobject --> http://blog.deconcept.com/swfobject/

- Tate


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--
David Little

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Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x

[Nick Gleitzman]

On 2 Jul 2007, at 6:09 PM, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:


I guess I was hoping to fix the problem(s), rather than just rely on a
hack. Other suggestions appreciated.


Fair enough, but I'd say your chances of getting the one set of css 
rules to display correctly in all browsers are pretty slim - especially 
if you want to include browsers as flawed as Exploder 5.x. Even MS 
themselves accept how hard this is - hence CCs.


I routinely serve as many as three alternative stylesheets vis CCs for 
different versions of IE. They only need to contain a handful of rules 
necessary to override the correct values served to compliant browsers.


Whether you consider CCs a hack is, I guess, subjective. But your code 
will validate, and they're easy to remove with a global search and 
replace if and when the time comes that you don't need them any more.


Why beat your head against the wall of buggy browsers when the 
manufacturer themselves supplies a workaround?


N
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http://www.omnivision.com.au/



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Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x

[Sarah Peeke (XERT)]

Hi Nick,

I guess I was hoping to fix the problem(s), rather than just rely on a
hack. Other suggestions appreciated.

> So use a Conditional Comment - ?
 
> > 2. If I don't include a dreaded hack in my css (which I'd really  
> > like to remove because my style sheet doesn't validate)

Sarah



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Re: [WSG] Font-size 62.5% problem

[Nick Gleitzman]

On 2 Jul 2007, at 3:10 PM, Felix Miata wrote:


Paul Collins apparently typed:


I seem to be having trouble assigning the font-size:62.5%


Please note that...


Toldja.

N
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Re: [WSG] Footer Problem IE5.x

[Nick Gleitzman]

Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote:

2. If I don't include a dreaded hack in my css (which I'd really like 
to

remove because my style sheet doesn't validate)


So use a Conditional Comment - ?

N
___
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http://www.omnivision.com.au/



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