[WSG] re: generate data
after politely being told to shut up, and offering a meek reply, i'd like to take the opportunity to complete the thought. if the shoe fits, wear it. if accessibility isn't cracked up to what it's supposed to be, then why are there laws about the subject? what's the point of being a member of a group that is diligently trying to bring standardization to the web, when some of it's members have the kind of attitude mentioned above? i have learned a lot from this group and i appreciate the effort being given by those members of the group and the information shared. the reason i commented on accessibility is that if the site was not accessible, then will the data generated by the generator be accessible to all? if the data that it generates is not accessible to all, then what good is it? seems to me that it undermines the purpose of this group just like the comment of the poster. sure, we are all trying to improve the web in this group; we are all trying ways to make the web more interactive, but at what price? ok, i've had my say. i'm more of a designer than a developer. my knowledge of javascript is limited. i am currently reading: javascript, the definitive guide by david flanagan. help me out here please, if i'm off base or need more information. i understand that javascript is a programming language. i understand that javascript is needed to pass information from a form to a data base for storage or retrieval of data. i also understand there are more uses for javascript than my above remark, but, again, my limited understanding of javascript draws a blank for other uses. i don't understand why someone would code a page and use javascript that would make the page not available without it. would someone like to point me to some references on how to use javascript in a standards compliant way and have a go at the above question? dwain -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] data generator
well nya nee nyah nyah! One can have accessible as well as something that works, which is what I think dwain was after here. The navigation on data-generator is useless without JavaScript. Sorry, that is not what any of us would call standards compliant. Am I right? Is that not what gracefully degrading javascript means? I draw your attention to: http://www.webstandards.org/learn/faq/#p22 and the following on that page: 3.1.2 To people Accessibility is an important idea behind many web standards, especially HTML. Not only does this mean allowing the web to be used by people with disabilities, but also allowing web pages to be understood by people using browsers other than the usual ones - including voice browsers that read web pages aloud to people with sight impairments, Braille browsers that translate text into Braille, hand-held browsers with very little monitor space, teletext displays, and other unusual output devices. As the variety of web access methods increases, adjusting or duplicating websites to satisfy all needs will become increasingly difficult (indeed, some say it’s impossible even today). Following standards is a major step towards solving this problem. Making your sites standards-compliant will help ensure not only that traditional browsers, old and new, will all be able to present sites properly, but also that they will work with unusual browsers and media. Some consequences of ignoring standards are obvious: the most basic consequence is that you will restrict access to your site. How much business sense does it make to limit your audience to only a fraction of those who wish be a part of it? For a business site, denying access to even small portions of a target audience can make a big difference to your profit margin. For an educational site, it makes sense to allow access not only to affluent, able-bodied school- children with graphical browsers, but also to children in regions with poorly-developed infrastructure who are best served by text-only browsing, or disabled students using specialized browsers. The same principle applies to all types of websites — while straying from the standards and taking advantage of browser-specific features may be tempting, the increased accessibility which comes from standards-compliance will lead to far greater rewards in the long run. OK, the data generator relies heavily on javaScript, I can almost understand that, perhaps the creator had a reason for supplying it in a client side script instead of server side except a web standards approach would mean having something that ALSO works without javascript, i.e. a server-side version that performs the same function and delivers results. So why does it HAVE TO work with javascript? Why can it not just work for anyone? I think dwain made an incredibly valid point and raised a valuable question. Are we going to promote standards compliance, _some_ of the time, or in all that we do? Joe On Feb 23 2008, at 06:04, Gary Menzel wrote: I wasn't talking to you dwain. On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 3:39 PM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: target had something that just works and look what happened to them. wonder how they feel about accessibility now? although it's not the end all and be all of web design and development, if you are wanting standards compliance then shouldn't go just part of the way, like microsoft does, to be standards compliant, that means being accessible to all. we do have laws about that now, even for the web. let's go to target. dwain On 2/22/08, Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah - our development team will definitely be using this. Sometimes accessibility is not all it is cracked up to be. Sometime you just need something that works. On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]@R KULEKCİ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think very good resource. thanks! 2008/2/23, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is pretty cool tool to generate volume of any kind of data (it even includes SQL options) http://www.generatedata.com -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe:
Re: [WSG] data generator
Looks to me like Gary was talking to all of us, or do I understand _list_ differently to others? Joe On Feb 23 2008, at 06:52, dwain wrote: my misunderstanding. dwain On 2/23/08, Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wasn't talking to you dwain. On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 3:39 PM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: target had something that just works and look what happened to them. wonder how they feel about accessibility now? although it's not the end all and be all of web design and development, if you are wanting standards compliance then shouldn't go just part of the way, like microsoft does, to be standards compliant, that means being accessible to all. we do have laws about that now, even for the web. let's go to target. dwain On 2/22/08, Gary Menzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah - our development team will definitely be using this. Sometimes accessibility is not all it is cracked up to be. Sometime you just need something that works. On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]@R KULEKCİ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think very good resource. thanks! 2008/2/23, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is pretty cool tool to generate volume of any kind of data (it even includes SQL options) http://www.generatedata.com -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- dwain alford The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] data generator
Gary was having a bad day. He's now left the list. Don¹t take his comments personally, anyone! Let¹s all calm down and focus on the topic. Thanks Russ Looks to me like Gary was talking to all of us, or do I understand _list_ differently to others? Joe *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] data generator
point taken Russ. Do you feel this thread (implementation of JS in datagenerator site) is on topic? Joe On Feb 23 2008, at 13:55, russ - maxdesign wrote: Gary was having a bad day. He's now left the list. Don’t take his comments personally, anyone! Let’s all calm down and focus on the topic. Thanks Russ Looks to me like Gary was talking to all of us, or do I understand _list_ differently to others? Joe *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Controling Windows DPI settings
I have Windows Vista Home Premium and use 96 DPI. I am told repeteated ly that my fonts are to large. I have even tried font-size: 80%; in my CSS and still get told the fonts are to large. I know you are not able to overide a person's preferences. can I do something in CSS to change the default DPI and/or font-size? And then create different CSS files to increase the DPI and/or font-sizes? Angus MacKinnon Infoforce Services http:ééwww.infoforce-services.com It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. George Washington *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] re: generate data
I don't really feel like participating in the dramatic part of this- But I can answer some of the questions about javascript. On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 6:53 PM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i'm more of a designer than a developer. my knowledge of javascript is limited. i am currently reading: javascript, the definitive guide by david flanagan. help me out here please, if i'm off base or need more information. i understand that javascript is a programming language. correct i understand that javascript is needed to pass information from a form to a data base for storage or retrieval of data. Incorrect- Javascript is absolutely not needed for this. In fact, I would actively discourage this usage, because it makes forms inaccessable to clients without javascript. (Even though I do quite like javascript most of the time) i also understand there are more uses for javascript than my above remark, but, again, my limited understanding of javascript draws a blank for other uses. Javascript is basically a tool to allow website authors to add browser features that are not built in to the browser. That's how I see it anyway. That's not exactly how most people use it, or think of it. i don't understand why someone would code a page and use javascript that would make the page not available without it. It's not strictly the usage of javascript that makes the page inaccessable, it's the page's dependance on it. If you think of javascript like I do- A tool for adding features- then the page still needs to be able to work without those features. The reasons for someone making a page that doesn't work without javascript are complicated, but it basically boils down to how the author thinks about what a webpage is, and how it works. I've spoken to the author for instance, of www.eventliving.com. That website does not work at all without javascript- And there's really no reason that it can't. The issue is that the guy who programmed it had a background in Java application development- Not web development. He seemed to think of a website as a specialized kind of program. He didn't seem to know, for instance that the distinction between clientside javascript, and serverside java code was important. The goal was simply to get the website to work in IE, just like with any other program, the goal might be to simply get it to work in windows. There was no awareness of accessibility issues. But that's just one case. Someone might alternatively be perfectly aware of accessibility issues, and there are other reasons for depending on javascript. Accessibility, though in a sense is trivially easy once you know it, is percieved by a lot of people as being quite difficult. Application responsiveness might be a top priority, and the author simply sees no reason to make the site work without javascript. would someone like to point me to some references on how to use javascript in a standards compliant way and have a go at the above question? hijax http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/schedule/paper/29 dwain *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Controling Windows DPI settings
Hayden's Harness Attachment wrote: I have Windows Vista Home Premium and use 96 DPI. I am told repeteated ly that my fonts are to large. I have even tried font-size: 80%; in my CSS and still get told the fonts are to large. I know you are not able to overide a person's preferences. can I do something in CSS to change the default DPI and/or font-size? And then create different CSS files to increase the DPI and/or font-sizes? DPI=dots per inch and is about resolution, not font size mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] re: generate data
I would certainly add this to the mix along with the links there, all 7 chapters :) http://www.onlinetools.org/articles/unobtrusivejavascript/ along with http://icant.co.uk/ Bruce bkdesign On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 6:53 PM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i'm more of a designer than a developer. my knowledge of javascript is limited. i am currently reading: javascript, the definitive guide by david flanagan. help me out here please, if i'm off base or need more information. i don't understand why someone would code a page and use javascript that would make the page not available without it. would someone like to point me to some references on how to use javascript in a standards compliant way and have a go at the above question? hijax http://xtech06.usefulinc.com/schedule/paper/29 dwain *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
