RE: [WSG] Western Australian Government Website
One of the main problems with the WA gov sites is that a little over two years ago a large number of govt departments got amalgamated. Most of my peers have spent the last couple of years trying to get three, four or more sites into a single logical structure (and boy it is fun with all the internal polictics involved). I understand it hasn't been touched since 2001 - and that would certainly explain it. The dot com bust also hit gov hard, what was once a promising portal, is now all but abandoned. Regarding that link - that was another of my peeves. The average person isn't going to think of looking under Labor Relations or Work and Conditions for that info (I myself missed that link.) I think Public Holidays isn't even mention in the title of the search result but about 15 words into the description :( Part of my personal IA peeve, some people expect everybody to know intutively which section of which govt department look after what and expect us to build web sites around the structure of the department /section not around the structure of the information. I'm not intending to be negative - all I was is dissapointed that the site was so hard to use, almost every page was actually a different sub domain or domain, and looked totally different from the last :( While there is common branding http://www.commonbadge.dpc.wa.gov.au/ Most websites have a very different view of what it all means and with no direction from above it will continue that way. Nick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Western Australian Government Website
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 07:32:15 +0800, Vicki Berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SNIP however even that will be limited by the CMS they are going to use. /SNIP Why do organisations (be they private or public) continue to blame a CMS for things like poor validity and accessibility? Choosing a CMS that comforms the the requirements of well-formed valid (X)HTML and CSS, as well as good usability and accessibility should surely be the first point before worring about the design? I currently work for a company (my last day unfortunately) that produces a CMS that outputs completely valid XHTML1.0 Strict and CSS and insists on educating their clients regarding the benefits of outputting standards-based code. Their clients include many local government agencies in Victoria as well as private industry. And this company isn't the only one producing an enterprise-level CMS at a very reasonable cost that does all this in Australia, I know that for a fact. So why do companies/governments continue to choose poor CMSs that output poorly formed markup? -- Website Designer/Developer www.nataliebuxton.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Western Australian Government Website
Hi Natalie et al, We here at Cube 7 just finished ArtsEdge, a WA Government Department site. It's all fancy pants standard xhtml and css (with a smidge of flash) and uses Contribute for its CMS along with some custom backend for the events module. check it out: http://www.artsedge.dca.wa.gov.au/ Admittedly this client was a lot more liberal than most government departments, but no matter who you're working for they all need to adhere to the new standards of accessibility. Hopefully someone will redevelop http://www.dca.wa.gov.au soon too! :) Cheers, Michael Efford Senior Designer Cube7 - Creative Technology http://www.cube7.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Western Australian Government Website
Hi Kay et al, Coming in late here. I couldn't find the original post so am not quite clear about the new common badging apparently to be released? Will that change the Office of the E-Govt design guidelines which say at http://www.egov.dpc.wa.gov.au/index.cfm?fuseaction=guidelines.design (3.3.3. Other pages): It is not necessary for web sites to be redesigned to fit the common badging look, however they should carry the Government Symbol in a prominent position (ie. visible without scrolling) on their entry page/s. Which is in keeping with the Common Badging Guidelines. So basically all govt sites can look like whatever they want! Is this likely to change, then? The dept where I used to work is about to have their website redesigned and AFAIK they have not even considered common badging let alone branding. Thankfully, validity, usability and accessibility are high priorites, however even that will be limited by the CMS they are going to use. I imagine the matter of validity and accessibility and CMSs is huge across State Govt. Perhaps Govt itself should develop (or modify) a CMS and make it freely available to all depts. (I'm full of good ideas, me! I can just imagine the screams of web developers being forced to fit into a mould! Which sounds like it could happen anyway with this new common badging?) But yeah, I do believe that the general intention is good - it's just a bit too wishy-washy at present, to be effective. When the new WA Museum site was launched my boss pointed out to them that as most of it was Flash it was pretty inaccessible and apparently(!) their manager had no idea. I don't dare look and see if that's still the case. Vicki. :-) Kay Smoljak wrote: Anyway, it will be interesting to see what they come up with when the new common badging is released. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Western Australian Government Website
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:52:38 +0800, Nick Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of the main problems with the WA gov sites is that a little over two years ago a large number of govt departments got amalgamated. Most of my peers have spent the last couple of years trying to get three, four or more sites into a single logical structure (and boy it is fun with all the internal polictics involved). I spoke to my friend at the Dept of Premier and Cabinet, and she said that the particular web site we're discussing here is somewhat of a problem as it's managed by a different department to the main state government stuff. They're currently discussing getting rid of it completely. Anyway, it will be interesting to see what they come up with when the new common badging is released. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Western Australian Government Website
Natalie Buxton wrote: Why do organisations (be they private or public) continue to blame a CMS for things like poor validity and accessibility? Choosing a CMS that comforms the the requirements of well-formed valid (X)HTML and CSS, as well as good usability and accessibility should surely be the first point before worring about the design? Hi Natalie, It's not always black and white - I am glad it has been for you, though! Unfortunately it wasn't for us. The politics and red tape in Govt departments can be wearying. Basically this dept has had very little support in upper management for the website. While the web unit is very keen and pro-standards, the management does not see it as a financial priority. So a commercial CMS was out (at this point) for that reason. The only reason funding was approved for the Open Source CMS was that the only costs would be development ones - and only then because the Powers That Be decided it would be nice to have a new website in time for the dept's 20-year anniversary. :-| Also, there is a great need across the dept for an integrated CMS (not just a web CMS but also document and other management) and the time frame for that is 5+ years. It will actually probably be longer because there is just about no intra-department communication. I actually found out from a CMS vendor that they'd been having discussions with someone from my dept from another division! It simply wasn't going to happen any time soon, and the website was built in 1996 and desperately needed rebuilding - not merely redesigning, I'm afraid. Some primary functions of the department had changed in that time, and certainly the structure of the department has. We weren't prepared to wait 5+ years, and couldn't really do our jobs properly without a restructure, so just did the best we could under the circumstances. The CMS was chosen for all kinds of reasons. In itself it's XHTML and CSS-driven, but a lot of the 3rd party add-ons are pretty dreadful. We realise this will improve though, so for now time and resources might limit the amount of hacking done, but within a year or two it should be fine. We decided we could live with that time frame. Thus my (almost) tongue in cheek suggestion that the State Govt provide a CMS for all the Dept's to use, or at least recommend an approved one, so funding isn't an issue, as there would be no choice but to cough up. :-) Vicki. :-) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Western Australian Government Website
Just to add into the conversation... the Queensland Government has done HEAPS in regarding to CUE across most (but still not quite) all. The best place to start is: http://www.qld.gov.au/departments/index.html You'll note that even when you move sites (which often means moving departments) that they have a not only a consistent look and feel - but even a consistent standards compliant approach. Having said all that - there is no gaurantee you wont find something that LOOKS like the other sites but that still uses horrid markup. Regards, Gary Menzel [PS if government people in other states require contacts in the QLD Government for potential experience sharing please contact me off list and I will try and put you in touch with the right people] On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:19:35 +0800, Kay Smoljak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:05:49 +1100, Natalie Buxton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip http://www.wa.gov.au/ snip Alas, I was wrong and it's killing me how poor it is in relation to standards, accessibility and usability. I know some of the people involved with upgrading the web sites for the entire WA government to a common look and feel. As far as I understand it will be happening in the next few months (ie, before the election is called, at which point all non-essential changes to the sites are frozen). While I'm not sure if 100% validation is one of their goals for the new site, I do know that accessibility is a big issue for them and I have no doubt the new sites will be much, much better than what's there now. I believe that several years of planning and discussion has gone into the project! I might drop an email to someone and try to find out more... Cheers, K. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Western Australian Government Website
I went to do a search on public holidays (which I am compiling from all Government Websites) and being a proud WA girl, thought our site would be the best. Visit http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/lr/LabourRelations/Content/Wages%20and%20Conditions/Public%20Holidays/Public_Holidays.html for the information. Alas, I was wrong and it's killing me how poor it is in relation to standards, accessibility and usability. And no this site does not validate, the CMS only likes HTML 4.01 and the code used for the drop downs is valid XHTML 1.1 transitional but not 4.01 transitional. It is something we are hoping will be fixed in the next version of the CMS. Another problem is that the content is cut and pasted from MS Word. Many content contributors, none who know or understand HTML. However, that site is accessible and has decent usability. Traffic has doubled in the last six months since the redesign (no promotion or any other changes, just redesigned and the information architecture improved). Does anyone on this list work in any dept in WA that could perhaps enlighten the powers that be at how bad the site makes WA look compared to other government sites? Yes. See http://www.egov.dpc.wa.gov.au/index.cfm?fuseaction=projects.policy for the Guidelines for State Government Web Sites. There is a push for standards based sites from the office of e-government and it is slowly happening, but very slowly. Nick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Western Australian Government Website
Hi Nick Your site (docep) is fine, it's the main site that is a killer. It is completely un-accessible to say the least. I understand it hasn't been touched since 2001 - and that would certainly explain it. Regarding that link - that was another of my peeves. The average person isn't going to think of looking under Labor Relations or Work and Conditions for that info (I myself missed that link.) I think Public Holidays isn't even mention in the title of the search result but about 15 words into the description :( I'm not intending to be negative - all I was is dissapointed that the site was so hard to use, almost every page was actually a different sub domain or domain, and looked totally different from the last :( On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:00:25 +0800, Nick Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I went to do a search on public holidays (which I am compiling from all Government Websites) and being a proud WA girl, thought our site would be the best. Visit http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/lr/LabourRelations/Content/Wages%20and%20Conditions/Public%20Holidays/Public_Holidays.html for the information. Alas, I was wrong and it's killing me how poor it is in relation to standards, accessibility and usability. And no this site does not validate, the CMS only likes HTML 4.01 and the code used for the drop downs is valid XHTML 1.1 transitional but not 4.01 transitional. It is something we are hoping will be fixed in the next version of the CMS. Another problem is that the content is cut and pasted from MS Word. Many content contributors, none who know or understand HTML. However, that site is accessible and has decent usability. Traffic has doubled in the last six months since the redesign (no promotion or any other changes, just redesigned and the information architecture improved). Does anyone on this list work in any dept in WA that could perhaps enlighten the powers that be at how bad the site makes WA look compared to other government sites? Yes. See http://www.egov.dpc.wa.gov.au/index.cfm?fuseaction=projects.policy for the Guidelines for State Government Web Sites. There is a push for standards based sites from the office of e-government and it is slowly happening, but very slowly. Nick ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Website Designer/Developer www.nataliebuxton.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Western Australian Government Website
http://www.wa.gov.au/ Has anyone here been to this site recently? I went to do a search on public holidays (which I am compiling from all Government Websites) and being a proud WA girl, thought our site would be the best. Alas, I was wrong and it's killing me how poor it is in relation to standards, accessibility and usability. Finding the search was bad enough, the results it spewed out were worse. Then there is the tables for layout, the missing DOCTYPE, missing opening and closing tags, no semantic layout and inconsitency across sections. Does anyone on this list work in any dept in WA that could perhaps enlighten the powers that be at how bad the site makes WA look compared to other government sites? Natalie -- Website Designer/Developer www.nataliebuxton.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Western Australian Government Website
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 16:05:49 +1100, Natalie Buxton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip http://www.wa.gov.au/ snip Alas, I was wrong and it's killing me how poor it is in relation to standards, accessibility and usability. I know some of the people involved with upgrading the web sites for the entire WA government to a common look and feel. As far as I understand it will be happening in the next few months (ie, before the election is called, at which point all non-essential changes to the sites are frozen). While I'm not sure if 100% validation is one of their goals for the new site, I do know that accessibility is a big issue for them and I have no doubt the new sites will be much, much better than what's there now. I believe that several years of planning and discussion has gone into the project! I might drop an email to someone and try to find out more... Cheers, K. -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
