Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Cameron Muir]

Okay, see 4 different techniques here:
http://design.quagma.net/test1.html
1. just the title attribute
2. display none
3. visibility hidden
4. left -5000px
I like #4
cameron.
Jake Badger wrote:
You could use the one of the techniques that current image replacement tricks
use: either set the width to 0 and the overflow to hidden or place it off the
screen somewhere (like -1000px -1000px or something).
Jake
Quoting Justin French <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

On 23/09/2004, at 2:28 PM, Lea de Groot wrote:

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:10:24 +1000, Justin French wrote:
3 "read more on 'title of my post'" then hide the span
with display:none; from modern browsers, while still having entirely
accessible source
No, wait - surely the image replacement techniques have shown that
display: none is not a good way to make things accessable?
Arrgh! Good point.
Has the same been proven with visibilty:hidden; ?
Perhaps it could be some DOM scripting instead?
Just bangin' out ideas :)
Justin
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Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Jake Badger]

You could use the one of the techniques that current image replacement tricks
use: either set the width to 0 and the overflow to hidden or place it off the
screen somewhere (like -1000px -1000px or something).

Jake

Quoting Justin French <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On 23/09/2004, at 2:28 PM, Lea de Groot wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:10:24 +1000, Justin French wrote:
> >> 3 "read more on 'title of my post'" then hide the span
> >> with display:none; from modern browsers, while still having entirely
> >> accessible source
> >
> > No, wait - surely the image replacement techniques have shown that
> > display: none is not a good way to make things accessable?
>
> Arrgh! Good point.
> Has the same been proven with visibilty:hidden; ?
>
> Perhaps it could be some DOM scripting instead?
>
> Just bangin' out ideas :)
>
> Justin
>
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> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
> Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
>  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
> To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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>
>



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Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Justin French]

On 23/09/2004, at 2:28 PM, Lea de Groot wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:10:24 +1000, Justin French wrote:
3 "read more on 'title of my post'" then hide the span
with display:none; from modern browsers, while still having entirely
accessible source
No, wait - surely the image replacement techniques have shown that
display: none is not a good way to make things accessable?
Arrgh! Good point.
Has the same been proven with visibilty:hidden; ?
Perhaps it could be some DOM scripting instead?
Just bangin' out ideas :)
Justin
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Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Cameron Muir]

I think I like #3 as well. You could probably get the CMS to insert the 
title of the post with a string: $title and it wouldn't require content 
creators to do any extra work - it'd just insert whatever they used for 
the title of the post.

What about for another common link which is 'Comments'? I guess you'd 
apply the same technique: 'comments   about title '

Justin French wrote:
On 23/09/2004, at 1:09 PM, Cameron Muir wrote:
*Line 234*: (reply...)

Nearly all CMSs and blogs do the same.
Has anyone come up with any solutions for this?

Same answer as Adam here -- the only solution would be to use the 
title or something else unique to just this object.

1 "continue reading 'title of my post'"
2 "continue reading item #12"
3 "read more on 'title of my post'" then hide the span 
with display:none; from modern browsers, while still having entirely 
accessible source

4. just use the title of the entry as the "permanent link", throw out 
the generic "more..." -- my guess is that most readers would guess to 
click on the title if you ended each excerpt with (article continues) 
or chopped it mid sentence with an elipses character (…)

Of all these I like #3 the best.  Might do a write up on my blog :)
---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
http://justinfrench.com
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Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Lea de Groot]

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:10:24 +1000, Justin French wrote:
> 3 "read more on 'title of my post'" then hide the span 
> with display:none; from modern browsers, while still having entirely 
> accessible source

No, wait - surely the image replacement techniques have shown that 
display: none is not a good way to make things accessable?

Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Justin French]

On 23/09/2004, at 1:09 PM, Cameron Muir wrote:
*Line 234*: (reply...)

Nearly all CMSs and blogs do the same.
Has anyone come up with any solutions for this?
Same answer as Adam here -- the only solution would be to use the title 
or something else unique to just this object.

1 "continue reading 'title of my post'"
2 "continue reading item #12"
3 "read more on 'title of my post'" then hide the span 
with display:none; from modern browsers, while still having entirely 
accessible source

4. just use the title of the entry as the "permanent link", throw out 
the generic "more..." -- my guess is that most readers would guess to 
click on the title if you ended each excerpt with (article continues) 
or chopped it mid sentence with an elipses character (…)

Of all these I like #3 the best.  Might do a write up on my blog :)
---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
http://justinfrench.com
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Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Cameron Muir]

Yes Neerav - that's what I meant. Whatever solution the list recommends 
will need to be hacked into the CMS/blog code or submitted as a feature 
request.

regards,
cameron.
Neerav wrote:
What Cameron means is that most CMS's & Blogs automate "more" and 
"read more" style links

the only way i know of to add some useful info to the link would be to 
hack the code which outputs the title attribute to be something like this

(reply...)

Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Herrod, Lisa wrote:
can't you edit the title attribute?
Lisa
-Original Message-
From: Cameron Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once
I was just wondering the list's opinion about blogs and CMSs that at 
the end of each new item, have a link that says 'read more' or 'read 
comments' or just 'more' .

Sitepoint, for example, uses the same link phrase more than once when 
pointing to different URLS:

Do not use the same link phrase more than once when the links point 
to different URLs. 
<http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/html/en/gls/g265.html>/ (7 
instances) /
*Line 141*: (reply...)
*Line 164*: (reply...)
*Line 180*: (reply...)
*Line 191*:   Posted @ 2:50:08 AM MDT - 4 comments -
*Line 192*: (reply...)
*Line 222*: (reply...)
*Line 234*: (reply...)

Nearly all CMSs and blogs do the same.
Has anyone come up with any solutions for this?
regards,
cameron.
**
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Aaron Egaas]

I've used phrasing like "continue reading ...", where the blank 
is the name of the post or article for a while now on my blog. I think 
it works pretty wel to circumvent situations like this.

you could similarly use links like "reply to _ ..." in the same 
way.

Aaron Egaas
http://www.aaronegaas.com
On Sep 22, 2004, at 8:09 PM, Cameron Muir wrote:
I was just wondering the list's opinion about blogs and CMSs that at 
the end of each new item, have a link that says 'read more' or 'read 
comments' or just 'more' .

Sitepoint, for example, uses the same link phrase more than once when 
pointing to different URLS:

Do not use the same link phrase more than once when the links point to 
different URLs. 
/ (7 
instances) /
*Line 141*: (reply...)
*Line 164*: (reply...)
*Line 180*: (reply...)
*Line 191*:   Posted @ 2:50:08 AM MDT - 4 comments -
*Line 192*: (reply...)
*Line 222*: (reply...)
*Line 234*: (reply...)

Nearly all CMSs and blogs do the same.
Has anyone come up with any solutions for this?
regards,
cameron.
**
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Cameron Muir]

Hello Lisa,
I think so:
If two or more links refer to different targets but share the same link 
text, distinguish the links by specifying a different value for the 
"title" attribute of each |A| element.

But even if you do that Bobby still gives an error - it'll say it 
doesn't meet Priority 2 requirement.

regards,
cameron.
Herrod, Lisa wrote:
can't you edit the title attribute?
Lisa
-Original Message-
From: Cameron Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once
I was just wondering the list's opinion about blogs and CMSs that at the 
end of each new item, have a link that says 'read more' or 'read 
comments' or just 'more' .

Sitepoint, for example, uses the same link phrase more than once when 
pointing to different URLS:

Do not use the same link phrase more than once when the links point to 
different URLs. 
<http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/html/en/gls/g265.html>/ (7 instances) /
*Line 141*: (reply...)
*Line 164*: (reply...)
*Line 180*: (reply...)
*Line 191*:   Posted @ 2:50:08 AM MDT - 4 comments -
*Line 192*: (reply...)
*Line 222*: (reply...)
*Line 234*: (reply...)

Nearly all CMSs and blogs do the same.
Has anyone come up with any solutions for this?
regards,
cameron.
**
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Neerav]

What Cameron means is that most CMS's & Blogs automate "more" and "read 
more" style links

the only way i know of to add some useful info to the link would be to 
hack the code which outputs the title attribute to be something like this

(reply...)

Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27
http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav
Herrod, Lisa wrote:
can't you edit the title attribute?
Lisa
-Original Message-
From: Cameron Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once
I was just wondering the list's opinion about blogs and CMSs that at the 
end of each new item, have a link that says 'read more' or 'read 
comments' or just 'more' .

Sitepoint, for example, uses the same link phrase more than once when 
pointing to different URLS:

Do not use the same link phrase more than once when the links point to 
different URLs. 
<http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/html/en/gls/g265.html>/ (7 instances) /
*Line 141*: (reply...)
*Line 164*: (reply...)
*Line 180*: (reply...)
*Line 191*:   Posted @ 2:50:08 AM MDT - 4 comments -
*Line 192*: (reply...)
*Line 222*: (reply...)
*Line 234*: (reply...)

Nearly all CMSs and blogs do the same.
Has anyone come up with any solutions for this?
regards,
cameron.
**
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Ryan Christie]

To avoid this most people will include something specific to the post's 
title like Read more of "so and so" or whatnot.

That is just one of those WCAG rules that turns people off about WCAG 
rules. I just alter the title attribute's text to specify what post it's 
linking to. I believe that's what the rule should be. Part of the reason 
it exists to to stop people from telling you to click [a]here[/a]... The 
"click here" thing is just bad practice though :-P

Cameron Muir wrote:
I was just wondering the list's opinion about blogs and CMSs that at the 
end of each new item, have a link that says 'read more' or 'read 
comments' or just 'more' .

Sitepoint, for example, uses the same link phrase more than once when 
pointing to different URLS:

Do not use the same link phrase more than once when the links point to 
different URLs. 
/ (7 instances) /
*Line 141*: (reply...)
*Line 164*: (reply...)
*Line 180*: (reply...)
*Line 191*:   Posted @ 2:50:08 AM MDT - 4 comments -
*Line 192*: (reply...)
*Line 222*: (reply...)
*Line 234*: (reply...)

Nearly all CMSs and blogs do the same.
Has anyone come up with any solutions for this?
regards,
cameron.
**
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[adam reitsma]

One that i've seen is "Continue reading 'this topic' ".

http://www.metamorphosism.com sometimes does this - for instance, his
11 09 04 "Kiss" entry.

I find that it's quite natural, and communicative. Hope this helps!

--adam--


On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:09:37 +1000, Cameron Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was just wondering the list's opinion about blogs and CMSs that at the
> end of each new item, have a link that says 'read more' or 'read
> comments' or just 'more' .
> 
> Sitepoint, for example, uses the same link phrase more than once when
> pointing to different URLS:
> 
> Do not use the same link phrase more than once when the links point to
> different URLs.
> / (7 instances) /
> *Line 141*:  title="Post a comment">(reply...)
> *Line 164*:  title="Post a comment">(reply...)
> *Line 180*:  title="Post a comment">(reply...)
> *Line 191*:   Posted @ 2:50:08 AM MDT -  href="/blog-post-view.php?id=188984#comments">4 comments -
> *Line 192*:  title="Post a comment">(reply...)
> *Line 222*:  title="Post a comment">(reply...)
> *Line 234*:  title="Post a comment">(reply...)
> 
> Nearly all CMSs and blogs do the same.
> 
> Has anyone come up with any solutions for this?
> 
> regards,
> cameron.
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
> Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
>  Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
> To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
>
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RE: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Web Usability]

Link labels should be short and easy to understand. The words used for the
labels (links) should also be sufficiently descriptive to provide a clear
indication of the page they link to.

“Clearly identify the target of each link. Link text should be meaningful
enough to make sense when read out of context – either on its own or as part
of a sequence of other links. Link text should also be terse. [Priority 2]”
WCAG Checkpoint 13.1

With screen readers like JAWS, a user can display a list of all the link
labels on a Web page with a few keystrokes. Many blind users of the Web use
this facility as a way of quickly locating information. For it to work
effectively however, each link label must be unique and sufficiently
descriptive so that it can be easily understood.

The repeated use of the link labels such as “more” or “click here” on the
same Web page is a common practise on many sites. When the screen reader
user opts to have the list of links presented in the order they are on the
page, the user maybe be able to gain a clue to the context of a "more" by
referring to the link that precedes it. However, some screen reader users
opt to have the link listed presented alphabetically and for these people a
list of ten “more” links one after another is not likely to be useful.

The Link Context Checker
(http://www.dur.ac.uk/its/services/web/accessibility/tools/linkcontext/)
will display each link on a page out of context and can be used to check the
appropriateness of link labels.

Hope this is helpful.

Roger


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cameron Muir
Sent: Thursday, 23 September 2004 1:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once


I was just wondering the list's opinion about blogs and CMSs that at the
end of each new item, have a link that says 'read more' or 'read
comments' or just 'more' .

Sitepoint, for example, uses the same link phrase more than once when
pointing to different URLS:

Do not use the same link phrase more than once when the links point to
different URLs.
<http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/html/en/gls/g265.html>/ (7 instances) /
*Line 141*: (reply...)
*Line 164*: (reply...)
*Line 180*: (reply...)
*Line 191*:   Posted @ 2:50:08 AM MDT - 4 comments -
*Line 192*: (reply...)
*Line 222*: (reply...)
*Line 234*: (reply...)

Nearly all CMSs and blogs do the same.

Has anyone come up with any solutions for this?

regards,
cameron.

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**



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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Herrod, Lisa]

can't you edit the title attribute?

Lisa

-Original Message-
From: Cameron Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 1:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once


I was just wondering the list's opinion about blogs and CMSs that at the 
end of each new item, have a link that says 'read more' or 'read 
comments' or just 'more' .

Sitepoint, for example, uses the same link phrase more than once when 
pointing to different URLS:

Do not use the same link phrase more than once when the links point to 
different URLs. 
<http://bobby.watchfire.com/bobby/html/en/gls/g265.html>/ (7 instances) /
*Line 141*: (reply...)
*Line 164*: (reply...)
*Line 180*: (reply...)
*Line 191*:   Posted @ 2:50:08 AM MDT - 4 comments -
*Line 192*: (reply...)
*Line 222*: (reply...)
*Line 234*: (reply...)

Nearly all CMSs and blogs do the same.

Has anyone come up with any solutions for this?

regards,
cameron.

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
 Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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[WSG] accessibility question: same link phrase more than once

[Cameron Muir]

I was just wondering the list's opinion about blogs and CMSs that at the 
end of each new item, have a link that says 'read more' or 'read 
comments' or just 'more' .

Sitepoint, for example, uses the same link phrase more than once when 
pointing to different URLS:

Do not use the same link phrase more than once when the links point to 
different URLs. 
/ (7 instances) /
*Line 141*: (reply...)
*Line 164*: (reply...)
*Line 180*: (reply...)
*Line 191*:   Posted @ 2:50:08 AM MDT - 4 comments -
*Line 192*: (reply...)
*Line 222*: (reply...)
*Line 234*: (reply...)

Nearly all CMSs and blogs do the same.
Has anyone come up with any solutions for this?
regards,
cameron.
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The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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