Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
On Mar 10, 2007, at 2:07 PM, Designer wrote: So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, etc... I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 5 nowBuy Now/a Andrew 109B SE 4th Av Gainesville FL 32601 Cell: 352-870-6661 http://www.andrewmaben.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Andrew Maben wrote: On Mar 10, 2007, at 2:07 PM, Designer wrote: So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, etc... I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 5 nowBuy Now/a Andrew Thanks Andrew - Simon put me on to this also, and it's EXACTLY what the validator is demanding. -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 5 nowBuy Now/a This is an elegant solution but has one drawback. The title attribute is sometimes not supported by screen readers. Even in screen readers that do support titles, the option is not often turned on due to lack of knowledge or information overload. For many screen reader users, the solution above would give repeated links saying buy now - which is not ideal. Steve Faulkner wrote about the inaccessibility of title attributes a while ago: http://www.sf.id.au/ozewai/ A possible solution, as mentioned before on this thread, is to use slightly more descriptive link content - such as including the title in the link content. You can also hide some of the link content if needed: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/more-links/ The interesting challenge here is the difference between passing accessibility tests vs helping real world users. The title method shown above is elegant and would pass many accessibility tests, yet could be less than ideal for real world screen reader users. The slightly more verbose methods, including those where hiding is used, are less elegant but much more accessible for real users. The choice, as always, is yours :) Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 5 nowBuy Now/a Andrew Thanks Andrew - Simon put me on to this also, and it's EXACTLY what the validator is demanding. There really is not an accessibility validator in the same sense as there is an HTML or CSS validator. Accessibility is not black and white. I believe your original code is fine: h1 EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER /h1 a href=esim/btsa.htmlAbout the book/a a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a h1 MANCHESTER KISS /h1 a href=mk/introduction.htmlIntroduction/a a href=mk/introduction_pt2.htmlWhat the author says/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.htmlWhat the critics say/a An assistive reader, in the vast majority of cases, is not going to machine-gun What the critics say. It's going to read the headings, then the content/links that come below. This might be a case of overanalyzing things a bit. The goal is not to satisfy a machine-based checker, but to provide a usable and accessible page. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Al Sparber wrote: From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] I may be late to the party with this, but I think what they're looking for would be: a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 1 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 2 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 3 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 4 nowBuy Now/a a href=LINK title=Buy TITLE 5 nowBuy Now/a Andrew Thanks Andrew - Simon put me on to this also, and it's EXACTLY what the validator is demanding. There really is not an accessibility validator in the same sense as there is an HTML or CSS validator. Accessibility is not black and white. I believe your original code is fine: h1 EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER /h1 a href=esim/btsa.htmlAbout the book/a a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a h1 MANCHESTER KISS /h1 a href=mk/introduction.htmlIntroduction/a a href=mk/introduction_pt2.htmlWhat the author says/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.htmlWhat the critics say/a An assistive reader, in the vast majority of cases, is not going to machine-gun What the critics say. It's going to read the headings, then the content/links that come below. This might be a case of overanalyzing things a bit. The goal is not to satisfy a machine-based checker, but to provide a usable and accessible page. Thanks Al, I appreciate your input on this. Point is, I am new to giving accessibility some serious consideration (other than the obvious simple things) and my only teacher at this stage are the various checkers such as those which come in the FF dev toolbar. Only this last week I decided to put a few sites on the W3C site thing (http://www.w3csites.com/) and, of course, you have to specify certain ratings such as html validation as well as WAI/section 508 validation. I thought this was an interesting challenge/tutorial to see what was needed to get my sites to pass automatic WAI3 validation. It has been a very educational exercise and there has been a couple of things (like the case discussed here) which I would never have dreamed of. Clearly, accessibility is a big area and currently outside of my expertise, but it's a start. Or do you think it's a misleading one, perhaps? -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] There really is not an accessibility validator in the same sense as there is an HTML or CSS validator. Accessibility is not black and white. I believe your original code is fine: h1 EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER /h1 a href=esim/btsa.htmlAbout the book/a a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a h1 MANCHESTER KISS /h1 a href=mk/introduction.htmlIntroduction/a a href=mk/introduction_pt2.htmlWhat the author says/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.htmlWhat the critics say/a An assistive reader, in the vast majority of cases, is not going to machine-gun What the critics say. It's going to read the headings, then the content/links that come below. This might be a case of overanalyzing things a bit. The goal is not to satisfy a machine-based checker, but to provide a usable and accessible page. Thanks Al, I appreciate your input on this. Point is, I am new to giving accessibility some serious consideration (other than the obvious simple things) and my only teacher at this stage are the various checkers such as those which come in the FF dev toolbar. Only this last week I decided to put a few sites on the W3C site thing (http://www.w3csites.com/) and, of course, you have to specify certain ratings such as html validation as well as WAI/section 508 validation. I thought this was an interesting challenge/tutorial to see what was needed to get my sites to pass automatic WAI3 validation. It has been a very educational exercise and there has been a couple of things (like the case discussed here) which I would never have dreamed of. Clearly, accessibility is a big area and currently outside of my expertise, but it's a start. Or do you think it's a misleading one, perhaps? No. Just confusing :-) It's much more a subjective area than is CSS or general markup, for example. I would sign off on the heading/DD scenario you have, with the duplicated link text. But that's not to say you should. You might want to subscribe to the WebAim accessibility mailing list and see if you can get a clear concensus there. http://list.webaim.org/ Best of luck. -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Al Sparber wrote: [snip] . . . No one is forcing you to not use Buy Now 20 times, on 20 different links. . . . Well Al, they are if I want to make an 'accessible' site which passes the WAI validation. No-one is 'forcing me' not to put font tags in the markup, or lay it out with tables, or etc. :-) -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility -solution!
Simon Moss wrote: In fact there is a let-out clause - http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#link-text - you *can* use the same text for different links, providing you use unique title text for each one... (still irritating - but as you say - there is a point there...) Simon Brilliant Simon! I used the title attribute and it now passes fine! Thank you! (http://www.webscribe.fsnet.co.uk/menufiles/menu.html) (It seems many of us have a lot to learn . . . :-) -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Al Sparber wrote: [snip] . . . No one is forcing you to not use Buy Now 20 times, on 20 different links. . . . Well Al, they are if I want to make an 'accessible' site which passes the WAI validation. No-one is 'forcing me' not to put font tags in the markup, or lay it out with tables, or etc. :-) That's an interesting bit of logic ;-) Nevertheless, I'm glad you've found a solution. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] target and accessibility
I am confused by the WAI validator failing validation on a section of a page which has the following code: dd a href=mk/introduction.htmlIntroduction/a /dd dd a href=mk/introduction_pt2.htmlWhat the author says/a /dd dd a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say/a /dd dd a href=mk/mkchapters.htmlSample chapters/a /dd The validator (Cynthia) says : Rule: 13.1.2 - All Anchor elements are required not to use the same link text to refer to different resources. * Failure - Anchor Element at Line: 143, Column: 15 The page in question is at http://www.webscribe.fsnet.co.uk/menufiles/menu.html I'm obviously missing something . . . can anyone help?Thanks. -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say/a Same text - different destinations. On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 22:43:51 +1000, Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say/a -- Tyssen Design www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
John Faulds wrote: a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say/a Same text - different destinations. Thanks John! But . . . That's what I want : 2 different books, each in it's own headed list, both with a section on what the critics say. Does this mean I can't have that? If so, that is ridiculous!! If I have 20 items for sale in a list, does that mean I can't have a 'buy now' button for each of them, because the link text is the same? Ludicrous! -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks John! But . . . That's what I want : 2 different books, each in it's own headed list, both with a section on what the critics say. Does this mean I can't have that? If so, that is ridiculous!! If I have 20 items for sale in a list, does that mean I can't have a 'buy now' button for each of them, because the link text is the same? Ludicrous! See checkpoint 13.1: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ -- Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Al Sparber wrote: From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks John! But . . . That's what I want : 2 different books, each in it's own headed list, both with a section on what the critics say. Does this mean I can't have that? If so, that is ridiculous!! If I have 20 items for sale in a list, does that mean I can't have a 'buy now' button for each of them, because the link text is the same? Ludicrous! See checkpoint 13.1: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ That's why it failed validation of course. viz: 13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link. [Priority 2] Link text should be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context -- either on its own or as part of a sequence of links. Link text should also be terse. For example, in HTML, write Information about version 4.3 instead of click here. In addition to clear link text, content developers may further clarify the target of a link with an informative link title (e.g., in HTML, the title attribute). So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, Buy this now, Now buy it, Get it at once, Purchase now, Get yer wallet out, Fork out now, Dig in for the dosh, etc etc. :-) Ludicrous! I see the point, obviously, but really!!! -- Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Designer wrote: Ludicrous! I see the point, obviously, but really!!! not really, you're missing the obvious. the links should be buy book on cooking ISBNx buy book on Shiatsu ISBNx buy book on Vegetarian cooking ISBN etc and the visual styling would be a graphic buy now (using some accessible image replacement technique) and everyone is happy. you the designer can have your visual button, and Google and all the other people that can't see your button get a meaningful list to choose from. think about it... ;o) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Designer wrote: So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, Buy this now, Now buy it, . No, it doesn't. It should rather be: Buy product A now, Buy product B now, Buy product C now, Buy product D now, . Your own page should then probably have something like: EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER About the book (- EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER) What the critics say (about EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER) What the readers say (about EVERY STREET IN MANCHESTER) -- MANCHESTER KISS Introduction (to MANCHESTER KISS) What the author says (about MANCHESTER KISS) What the critics say (about MANCHESTER KISS) Sample chapters (from MANCHESTER KISS) ...and you can probably hide the part I've placed in parentheses from normal view, in order to keep the graphical design as is. Makes kind of sense to me when I go through those links. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
From: Designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, Buy this now, Now buy it, Get it at once, Purchase now, Get yer wallet out, Fork out now, Dig in for the dosh, etc etc. :-) Ludicrous! I see the point, obviously, but really!!! Accessibility sometimes involves judgement calls. No one is forcing you to not use Buy Now 20 times, on 20 different links. But you can use: Buy Machester Kiss now Buy Manchester Hug now -- Al Sparber - PVII http://www.projectseven.com Extending Dreamweaver - Nav Systems | Galleries | Widgets Authors: 42nd Street: Mastering the Art of CSS Design *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
Designer wrote: John Faulds wrote: a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say/a Same text - different destinations. Thanks John! But . . . That's what I want : 2 different books, each in it's own headed list, both with a section on what the critics say. Does this mean I can't have that? If so, that is ridiculous!! If I have 20 items for sale in a list, does that mean I can't have a 'buy now' button for each of them, because the link text is the same? Ludicrous! What about: a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say spanabout XXX/span/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say spanabout YYY/span/a Then you use your favorite method to hide the span elements. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
On 10 Mar 2007, at 19:18:00, Thierry Koblentz wrote: What about: a href=esim/btsa_pt2.htmlWhat the critics say spanabout XXX/span/a a href=mk/introduction_pt3.html What the critics say spanabout YYY/span/a Then you use your favorite method to hide the span elements. As long as your favourite method doesn't involve the use of display: none; or visibility:hidden, as they will hide the content from screenreaders :-) Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] target and accessibility
In fact there is a let-out clause - http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#link-text - you *can* use the same text for different links, providing you use unique title text for each one... (still irritating - but as you say - there is a point there...) Simon www.simonmoss.co.uk That's why it failed validation of course. viz: 13.1 Clearly identify the target of each link. [Priority 2] Link text should be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context -- either on its own or as part of a sequence of links. Link text should also be terse. For example, in HTML, write Information about version 4.3 instead of click here. In addition to clear link text, content developers may further clarify the target of a link with an informative link title (e.g., in HTML, the title attribute). So I repeat : 20 items for sale would have to be: Buy now, Buy it now, Buy this now, Now buy it, Get it at once, Purchase now, Get yer wallet out, Fork out now, Dig in for the dosh, etc etc. :-) Ludicrous! I see the point, obviously, but really!!! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
