RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
From: cat soul Sent: 10 November 2010 23:32 Great! Most everyone else is saying HTML5 is 10 years off and not to code for it, not to worry about it until then. HTML5 as a finished, published spec may be 10 years off, but there are plenty of HTML5 features you can use right now with some careful handling of older (IE) browsers. The future is already among us. In fact, this is HTML5-style - !doctype html - but will work fine in all browsers (as far as I know). For more information check out: http://html5doctor.com/how-to-use-html5-in-your-client-work-right-now/ http://diveintohtml5.org/ http://www.html5rocks.com/ And there's Andy Clarke's new book Hardboiled Web Design which deals with HTML5 and more: http://hardboiledwebdesign.com/ So is HTML5 ready, as far as http://ishtml5readyyet.com/ sees it isn't the same as can I use parts of this spec yet? Chris This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontrol.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On 11 Nov 2010, at 09:18, Chris Taylor wrote: HTML5 as a finished, published spec may be 10 years off, but there are plenty of HTML5 features you can use right now with some careful handling of older (IE) browsers. The future is already among us. In fact, this is HTML5-style - !doctype html - but will work fine in all browsers (as far as I know). As far as browsers are concerned, it is will act no differently to HTML 4.01 Strict (or a number of other Doctypes). When you come to perform basic QA using a validator, on the other hand, you get very different results. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
From: David Dorward Sent: 11 November 2010 10:30 On 11 Nov 2010, at 09:18, Chris Taylor wrote: In fact, this is HTML5-style - !doctype html - but will work fine in all browsers (as far as I know). When you come to perform basic QA using a validator, on the other hand, you get very different results. Agreed, and it is a problem, but how much of that problem is validators not being updated? To be honest, if that's the only error I get from a validator I'd feel I was doing a decent job. The crux is, as it has always been, what actually happens in browsers themselves. Chris This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontrol.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On 11 Nov 2010, at 10:50, Chris Taylor wrote: From: David Dorward Sent: 11 November 2010 10:30 On 11 Nov 2010, at 09:18, Chris Taylor wrote: In fact, this is HTML5-style - !doctype html - but will work fine in all browsers (as far as I know). When you come to perform basic QA using a validator, on the other hand, you get very different results. Agreed, and it is a problem, but how much of that problem is validators not being updated? To be honest, if that's the only error I get from a validator I'd feel I was doing a decent job. The crux is, as it has always been, what actually happens in browsers themselves. Error? I wasn't suggesting that a validator would complain about the Doctype. It will either fail to recognise it (and thus refuse to do any validation) or it will trigger HTML5 validation. This isn't built on HTML 4.01 validation since HTML 5 is not an SGML application. The result is that you get a completely different validation engine — one that isn't mature and is still trying to track a moving target. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 1:18 AM, Chris Taylor chris.tay...@figureout.com wrote: And there's Andy Clarke's new book Hardboiled Web Design which deals with HTML5 and more: http://hardboiledwebdesign.com/ So is HTML5 ready, as far as http://ishtml5readyyet.com/ sees it isn't the same as can I use parts of this spec yet? I just finished reading HTML5 for web designers, and I thought it was a pretty good introduction to HTML5. http://books.alistapart.com/products/html5-for-web-designers An easy read. Very short book. Cheers, Micky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On Nov 11, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Micky Hulse wrote: I just finished reading HTML5 for web designers, and I thought it was a pretty good introduction to HTML5. http://books.alistapart.com/products/html5-for-web-designers An easy read. Very short book. Cheers, Micky I see that one of the choices is the eBook form...can that be read on a Mac? thanks! cs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
Howdy! On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:23 AM, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote: I see that one of the choices is the eBook form...can that be read on a Mac? Good question! Looks like the ebook includes PDF, ePub, and mobi formats. I am sure there are ePub readers on Mac. I usually don't mind reading the PDF myself. :) Have a great day! Cheers, Micky -- Micky Hulse Web Content Editor The Register-Guard 3500 Chad Drive Eugene, OR 97408 Phone: (541) 338-2621 Fax: (541) 683-7631 Web: http://www.registerguard.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Micky Hulse mickyhulse.li...@gmail.com wrote: Looks like the ebook includes PDF, ePub, and mobi formats. Looks like one of the chapters is online: A Brief History of Markup http://www.alistapart.com/articles/a-brief-history-of-markup/ I thought that chapter was a pretty interesting read. :) Cheers, Micky -- Micky Hulse Web Content Editor The Register-Guard 3500 Chad Drive Eugene, OR 97408 Phone: (541) 338-2621 Fax: (541) 683-7631 Web: http://www.registerguard.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
Yep, there's the kindle reader for the Mac and a couple of other readers. Regards, Wilbur Sent on my BlackBerry® from Vodafone -Original Message- From: Micky Hulse mickyhulse.li...@gmail.com Sender: li...@webstandardsgroup.org Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:47:26 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Reply-to: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML? Howdy! On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:23 AM, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote: I see that one of the choices is the eBook form...can that be read on a Mac? Good question! Looks like the ebook includes PDF, ePub, and mobi formats. I am sure there are ePub readers on Mac. I usually don't mind reading the PDF myself. :) Have a great day! Cheers, Micky -- Micky Hulse Web Content Editor The Register-Guard 3500 Chad Drive Eugene, OR 97408 Phone: (541) 338-2621 Fax: (541) 683-7631 Web: http://www.registerguard.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On Nov 11, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Micky Hulse wrote: Howdy! On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 11:23 AM, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote: I see that one of the choices is the eBook form...can that be read on a Mac? Good question! Looks like the ebook includes PDF, ePub, and mobi formats. I am sure there are ePub readers on Mac. I usually don't mind reading the PDF myself. :) thanks for that...I'll have to check it out. That title looks like a must-have...they offer another for CSS as well, endorsed by none other than Eric Meyer. cs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 12:01 PM, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote: thanks for that...I'll have to check it out. That title looks like a must-have...they offer another for CSS as well, endorsed by none other than Eric Meyer. Yah, I think I will pick that one up also! :) CSS3 For Web Designers http://books.alistapart.com/products/css3-for-web-designers This book will be released on November 16th. Should be a good read. :) Cheers, Micky -- Micky Hulse Web Content Editor The Register-Guard 3500 Chad Drive Eugene, OR 97408 Phone: (541) 338-2621 Fax: (541) 683-7631 Web: http://www.registerguard.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On 10 Nov 2010, at 22:34, cat soul wrote: Any thoughts on which we ought to be using HTML, since it works in IE 9 without having to pretend it is HTML. 4.01, since it is a stable recommendation with mature QA tools (unless you have a need for features added in HTML5 and are willing to life on the bleeding edge) Strict, unless you need something only offered by Transitional (in which case think twice as not being in Strict is a clue that you probably shouldn't use something). , and what information ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with !DOCTYPE, etc? Title is mandatory. Meta charset if you think people are more likely to view a locally saved copy of the document than a copy that has gone through a transcoding proxy. Links to any stylesheets. Scripts that need to run before the page has finished loading. And, as specified by WCAG 2.0, the lang attribute in the HTML tag. Kerry --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, and what information ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with !DOCTYPE, etc? I'd go with !DOCTYPE html with nothing above that -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On 10 Nov 2010, at 22:34, cat soul wrote: Any thoughts on which we ought to be using HTML, since it works in IE 9 without having to pretend it is HTML. 4.01, since it is a stable recommendation with mature QA tools (unless you have a need for features added in HTML5 and are willing to life on the bleeding edge) Strict, unless you need something only offered by Transitional (in which case think twice as not being in Strict is a clue that you probably shouldn't use something). , and what information ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with !DOCTYPE, etc? Title is mandatory. Meta charset if you think people are more likely to view a locally saved copy of the document than a copy that has gone through a transcoding proxy. Links to any stylesheets. Scripts that need to run before the page has finished loading. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
Thierry's right. It's time to start making those baby steps into HTML5. But you'll also need to add your charset and lang definition !doctype html html lang=en head meta charset=UTF-8 ... ted -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 2:54 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML? Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, and what information ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with !DOCTYPE, etc? I'd go with !DOCTYPE html with nothing above that -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
Here is a reasonably good example: http://www.texaswebdevelopers.com/blog/template_permalink.asp?id=136 http://www.texaswebdevelopers.com/blog/template_permalink.asp?id=136In particular, the 'dir' and 'lang' attributes - most people just assume that english is the only language... regards, Mathew Robertson On 11 November 2010 09:53, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.comwrote: Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, and what information ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with !DOCTYPE, etc? I'd go with !DOCTYPE html with nothing above that -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On Wed, 10 Nov 2010, cat soul wrote: Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, and what information ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with !DOCTYPE, etc? The first line should be a doctype. I recommend either 4.01 strict or HTML5. !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd; or !DOCTYPE html In the HEAD you need a TITLE element. You probably also want a charset declaration, e.g.: meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 a link to a stylesheet: link href=body.css rel=stylesheet type=text/css a description META tag: meta name=description content=Chris F.A. Johnson's home page: Web design, Chess, Unix shell, Cryptic Crosswords, Books Then the BODY. And always check your page with http://validator.w3.org/. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, http://cfajohnson.com Author: Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:34 PM, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote: Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, To cut a _long_ story very short, if you have to ask this question, use HTML. See also: http://www.webdevout.net/articles/beware-of-xhtml http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/166 http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML and what information ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with !DOCTYPE, etc? Typically, character encoding information (in case the user saves the page for offline consumption), page title, links to related resources (e.g. stylesheets for styling, feeds for feed autodiscovery), page description (often excerpted in search results pages). Possibly Open Graph Protocol metadata (http://opengraphprotocol.org/). -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On Nov 10, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Ted Drake wrote: Thierry's right. It's time to start making those baby steps into HTML5. But you'll also need to add your charset and lang definition !doctype html html lang=en head meta charset=UTF-8 Great! Most everyone else is saying HTML5 is 10 years off and not to code for it, not to worry about it until then. cs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
Benjamin always has a way of cutting through the fog and giving succent advice. Ted -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 3:26 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML? On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:34 PM, cat soul cats...@thinkplan.org wrote: Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, To cut a _long_ story very short, if you have to ask this question, use HTML. See also: http://www.webdevout.net/articles/beware-of-xhtml http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/166 http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML_vs._XHTML and what information ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with !DOCTYPE, etc? Typically, character encoding information (in case the user saves the page for offline consumption), page title, links to related resources (e.g. stylesheets for styling, feeds for feed autodiscovery), page description (often excerpted in search results pages). Possibly Open Graph Protocol metadata (http://opengraphprotocol.org/). -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML or HTML?
On 11 Nov 2010, at 00:17, Mathew Robertson wrote: Here is a reasonably good example: http://www.texaswebdevelopers.com/blog/template_permalink.asp?id=136 In particular, the 'dir' and 'lang' attributes - most people just assume that english is the only language… dir isn’t needed unless you are using rtl or something more exotic. The default is ltr. Also be aware if you are using a HTML5 structural elements like section and so on, while they work in modern browsers by adding “display: block;” and IE by the HTML5 Shim (createElement), they will not work on the BlackBerry browser (Pre-BB6, but that is most BBs on the market). BlackBerry is highly underrated, but by some measures it is the second most popular mobile browser after Opera: http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_browser-ww-daily-20091001-20101109 regards, Mathew Robertson On 11 November 2010 09:53, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: Any thoughts on which we ought to be using, and what information ought to be up at top of an HTML page, along with !DOCTYPE, etc? I'd go with !DOCTYPE html with nothing above that -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- David Storey Chief Web Opener / Product Manager, Opera Dragonfly W3C WG: Mobile Web Best Practices / SVG Interest Group Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32 / E-Mail/XMPP: dsto...@opera.com / Twitter: dstorey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] XHTML v HTML (also a question about GoLive)
No idea about Adobe Golive but Dreamweaver MX 2004 ver 7.01 can be set to output XHTML compliant code. -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mordechai Peller wrote: A potential client asked me: How does a xhtml site differ from an html site and will I be able to make modifications myself using a program such as Adobe Golive which creates html pages? It's the second half of the question with which I'm having a problem since I have no experience with GoLive. While the thought of a WYSIWYG touching my code horrifies me, anyone know the answer? In regards to the first half, while I'm able to answer it, I was hoping for some feedback either to answer better, or in case I overlooked something. Besides the purely technical differences, what come to mind is the following: * Since the rules are stricter, it forces code to be cleaner; * It must be well formed, therefore it's more machine readable and more SE friendly; * It's XML and can be treated as data; and * XHTML replaces/is the newest version of HTML and therefore more geared to the future. Thanks in advance. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] XHTML v HTML (also a question about GoLive)
Mordechai, I think the XHTML/HTML issue has been canvassed by more knowledgeable members in the past on this list, with some advocating for the use of HTML 4.01 for reasons you may like to search in the archives. (Look particularly for posts by Peter Firminger.) That said, you are probably more concerned to reassure the client about the effect on the display of the site, and in that regard there are no issues that should cause concern, unless it involves something like pop-up windows. Your other concern is over the use of GoLive or another WYSIWYG editor. This is more difficult, because you will have set up your CSS so that it works cross-browser, and touching it in one place could affect the display of your work. The question I would have in this situation is, does the client want to be involved in the site's design, or merely content maintenance? * If in design, then the client is really going about things in a back-to-front way. The design should be finalised between you before you break it down into HTML/CSS. This is what you are paid to do, in the same way that an architect is paid to understand the client's needs and translate them into working plans. * If in content maintenance only (and you are talking about a static site), I would recommend using Macromedia Contribute or the Adobe equivalent. You can set it up to allow the client to enter content, with access to particular styles (hn, p, ul/li, img etc) and not to others, and you can provide templates for them to use. Hope this helps. -Hugh Todd A potential client asked me: ...will I be able to make modifications myself using a program such as Adobe Golive which creates html pages? It's the second half of the question with which I'm having a problem since I have no experience with GoLive. While the thought of a WYSIWYG touching my code horrifies me, anyone know the answer? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
