Re: [wsjt-devel] TX audio setting on RC4

[Rex Moncur]

Hi Joe

 

Thanks for your reply about using configurations.  You asked whether this
approach could solve my problem as well as any other scheme could do?  These
is no simple answer to your question so I will go through the process I went
through as a response to your request for feedback on RC4 and in case this
is a help for others.

 

Firstly, I do accept your general policy for not remembering user settings
by mode, band or whatever.  If nothing else this will be confusing to people
who operate lots of bands or modes and I suspect complicates your
programming.  I also accept that if the VHF people want the program to reset
to the last used audio frequency they get priority because there are more of
them.  This will become even more of an issue if Q65 takes off at HF.

 

The main problem for us as weak signal upper microwave users is that we have
been used to running with the TX audio always set to 1000 Hz since the days
of JT4, more recently QRA64 and the early versions of Q65.  Because we have
the added problem of trying to fit wide tone spaced sub-modes into limited
passbands this standard worked well and the T, M, R, 73 system was designed
to work on the basis of tuning to 1000 Hz. It now appears that with high
spreading of 200 Hz or more the Q65-60E sub-mode has an advantage but to use
this on some transceivers you need to set the audio to 700 Hz.  This was
addressed in RC3 but does not meet your general policy.

 

Following your advice I set up a number of configurations.  However I ran
into a problem in that each time I changed configurations WSJT-X reset the
band setting (Just below LOG QSO) and RF frequency (next to this) back to
the band on my IF radio and thus the Doppler correction was not correct. I
consulted with Charlie G3WDG and he did not have this problem.  After some
extensive investigation I found Charlie and I had different settings in that
I did not have "Monitor returns to last used frequency" checked in the
general settings but Charlie did.  However even when I did check this I
still had the problem. While it would be obvious to you it took me a while
to realise that the unchecked setting was still active on all the
configurations I had set.  So I had to go through each configuration and
check this setting to get it to work correctly.  Since doing this I found
that for those of us who are used to the old method we used on JT4 and QRA64
there is a high risk that we will accidently use the spinners and change a
configuration which is very confusing once you try to use it again.  The
best solution I have come up with is that in addition to setting up standard
configurations that you generally use, you should set up a configuration
which I have called "Random".  But you then have to discipline yourself to
never changing settings on your standard configurations and if you do need
to you must resort to the "Random" configuration.

 

So the short answer is that Configurations can be made to work if you:

 

1. Prior to setting them up you make sure "Monitor returns to last used
frequency" is checked.

2. Remember to never change your standard configurations with the spinner
controls 

3. Add a separate configuration called something like "Random" and use that
whenever you wish to use a non-standard operation with spinner controls.

 

Having got to this point I have been running this method past a few 10 GHz
operators.  One liked the configuration method and two did not.

 

Those that did not pointed to the fact that if you have to remember to never
change the spinner controls you might as well just remember to always set
the audio frequency each time you change modes or frequencies.  One
commented that using the spinner controls allows a quick change to say a
wider sub-mode where-as there is a delay if you change configurations.

 

>From what is seen on the HB9Q logger is seems that most Upper microwave
users have adopted the approach of indicating the TX audio frequency they
are using and for others to set to this with the spinners. Still for
DXpeditions  and terrestrial use it would be good to adopt the old 1000 Hz
standard.

 

I think at this stage the use of configurations is unlikely to become the
norm but I will keep using it see how it works out.

 

For info the configurations I have set up are as below:

 

 

73 Rex

 

Configurations.png

 

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Joe Taylor [mailto:j...@princeton.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, 21 April 2021 11:56 AM
To: WSJT software development
Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] TX audio setting on RC4

 

Hi Rex,

 

The general policy in WSJT-X is that we don't try to "remember" user
settings by mode, band, or whatever.

 

If you want parameters in reset to previously selected values according to
band or mode, you should define a Configuration for each frequently used
combination, and give it a convenient name.  You can have a dozen or more
configurations, ea

Re: [wsjt-devel] TX audio setting on RC4

[Joe Taylor]

Hi Peter,

Sorry about the onerous requirement to dismiss the RC expiration 
warning.  I'm sure it seems tiresome to see that message -- yet again! 
-- and to exert the necessary one extra click.


Things will be better soon.  Release candidates are for temporary use by 
beta testers, and a GA release release can't be very far away.


-- 73, Joe, K1JT

On 4/21/2021 3:02 AM, Peter Sumner wrote:

Hello Joe,
  while not wishing to hijack the thread, I am a great believer of the 
use of configurations for each setup ( I have one for each mode I use ) 
, the one niggle is the "RC expires on " warning message we get when 
changing from one to another configuration from the Release 
Candidate versions.  If there was a way to only see that reminder 
message at initial startup and not each time we change to a new 
configuration, that would be a step forward to making the use of 
'configurations' an easy sell.


as always, thanks to you and the team for the work you put in to make 
WSJT-X possible.


Regards,
Peter, vk5pj

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 11:30 AM Joe Taylor > wrote:


Hi Rex,

The general policy in WSJT-X is that we don't try to "remember" user
settings by mode, band, or whatever.

If you want parameters in reset to previously selected values according
to band or mode, you should define a Configuration for each frequently
used combination, and give it a convenient name.  You can have a dozen
or more configurations, each one set up the way you want.  Don't just
switch to Echo mode, switch to your Echo configuration.  If you use
both
Q65-60D and Q65-60E frequently, don't just use the ABCDE spinner --
define a configuration for submode.

Doesn't this approach solve your problem as well as any other scheme
could do?

         -- 73, Joe, K1JT

On 4/20/2021 7:22 PM, Rex Moncur wrote:
 > On RC3 Q65 automatically set the TX audio frequency to 1000 Hz for
 > Q65-60D (as well as the A to C sub-modes) and to 700 Hz for the E
sub
 > modes.  That worked well for the upper microwave users and kept the
 > audio frequency within the bandpass of most SSB transceivers.
 >
 > Some VHF operators who use the narrow sub-modes asked that the TX
audio
 > frequency be held constant at where it was last set and this was
 > introduced in RC4 with a red warning if the audio frequency was
likely
 > to go outside the Bandpass.  The VHF operators argued in part
that the
 > RC3 method would result in operators tending to focus on 1000 Hz
and be
 > on top of each other.
 >
 > RC4 does however introduce a problem in that if you change to say
WSPR
 > or echo mode the TX audio frequency is moved up to 1500 Hz and
remains
 > at this when you go back to Q65. EME operators often do an echo
test to
 > establish that their station is working prior to moving to
another mode
 > and thus end up TXing Q65 on 1500 Hzrather than 1000 Hz which is
 > standard at the upper microwaves.   This is a particular problem for
 > weak signal microwave users who typically use a low Ftol and single
 > decodesand do not notice that the TX audio frequency has been
moved up
 > to 1500 Hz.  The problem is further exacerbated if you are running a
 > sked with a weak station and use the 1000 Hz tune tone to
establish that
 > both stations are on frequency and that you have viable signals.  In
 > this case the 1000 Hz tune tone does in fact show up at 1000 Hz,
 > indicating you are on frequency, but when you change to transmit
 > messages they come out at 1500 Hz and are generally outside Ftol and
 > thus do not decode.
 >
 > I can see a number options to mitigate these conflicting
requirements
 > although none are perfect, for example:
 >
 > 1. The RC4 method could be changed such that all modes always
returns to
 > the last TX audio frequency in use for that"mode".  While this
will work
 > for microwave operators who are exactly on frequency  the audio
 > frequency will sometimes be changed off 1000 Hz to tune in a
station off
 > frequency so it is less than ideal.
 >
 > 2. The RC3 method could be applied ifthe higher microwave
frequencies
 > are selected and the RC4 method (modified to come back to the last
 > frequency used for each mode)  if VHF and lower microwave
frequencies
 > are selected.  The problem is that there is no clear frequency
boundary
 > where one or other method is preferred.  One possibility would be
the
 > modified RC4 method up to and including the 3.4 GHz band MHz and
  the
 > RC3 method above that.  The disadvantage of this approach is that
people
 > would need to understand that if they changed to the higher
microwave
 > frequencies the operating method has changed.
 >
 

Re: [wsjt-devel] TX audio setting on RC4

[Peter Sumner]

Hello Joe,
 while not wishing to hijack the thread, I am a great believer of the use
of configurations for each setup ( I have one for each mode I use ) , the
one niggle is the "RC expires on " warning message we get when changing
from one to another configuration from the Release Candidate versions.  If
there was a way to only see that reminder message at initial startup and
not each time we change to a new configuration, that would be a step
forward to making the use of 'configurations' an easy sell.

as always, thanks to you and the team for the work you put in to make
WSJT-X possible.

Regards,
Peter, vk5pj

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 11:30 AM Joe Taylor  wrote:

> Hi Rex,
>
> The general policy in WSJT-X is that we don't try to "remember" user
> settings by mode, band, or whatever.
>
> If you want parameters in reset to previously selected values according
> to band or mode, you should define a Configuration for each frequently
> used combination, and give it a convenient name.  You can have a dozen
> or more configurations, each one set up the way you want.  Don't just
> switch to Echo mode, switch to your Echo configuration.  If you use both
> Q65-60D and Q65-60E frequently, don't just use the ABCDE spinner --
> define a configuration for submode.
>
> Doesn't this approach solve your problem as well as any other scheme
> could do?
>
> -- 73, Joe, K1JT
>
> On 4/20/2021 7:22 PM, Rex Moncur wrote:
> > On RC3 Q65 automatically set the TX audio frequency to 1000 Hz for
> > Q65-60D (as well as the A to C sub-modes) and to 700 Hz for the E sub
> > modes.  That worked well for the upper microwave users and kept the
> > audio frequency within the bandpass of most SSB transceivers.
> >
> > Some VHF operators who use the narrow sub-modes asked that the TX audio
> > frequency be held constant at where it was last set and this was
> > introduced in RC4 with a red warning if the audio frequency was likely
> > to go outside the Bandpass.  The VHF operators argued in part that the
> > RC3 method would result in operators tending to focus on 1000 Hz and be
> > on top of each other.
> >
> > RC4 does however introduce a problem in that if you change to say WSPR
> > or echo mode the TX audio frequency is moved up to 1500 Hz and remains
> > at this when you go back to Q65. EME operators often do an echo test to
> > establish that their station is working prior to moving to another mode
> > and thus end up TXing Q65 on 1500 Hzrather than 1000 Hz which is
> > standard at the upper microwaves.   This is a particular problem for
> > weak signal microwave users who typically use a low Ftol and single
> > decodesand do not notice that the TX audio frequency has been moved up
> > to 1500 Hz.  The problem is further exacerbated if you are running a
> > sked with a weak station and use the 1000 Hz tune tone to establish that
> > both stations are on frequency and that you have viable signals.  In
> > this case the 1000 Hz tune tone does in fact show up at 1000 Hz,
> > indicating you are on frequency, but when you change to transmit
> > messages they come out at 1500 Hz and are generally outside Ftol and
> > thus do not decode.
> >
> > I can see a number options to mitigate these conflicting requirements
> > although none are perfect, for example:
> >
> > 1. The RC4 method could be changed such that all modes always returns to
> > the last TX audio frequency in use for that"mode".  While this will work
> > for microwave operators who are exactly on frequency  the audio
> > frequency will sometimes be changed off 1000 Hz to tune in a station off
> > frequency so it is less than ideal.
> >
> > 2. The RC3 method could be applied ifthe higher microwave frequencies
> > are selected and the RC4 method (modified to come back to the last
> > frequency used for each mode)  if VHF and lower microwave frequencies
> > are selected.  The problem is that there is no clear frequency boundary
> > where one or other method is preferred.  One possibility would be the
> > modified RC4 method up to and including the 3.4 GHz band MHz and  the
> > RC3 method above that.  The disadvantage of this approach is that people
> > would need to understand that if they changed to the higher microwave
> > frequencies the operating method has changed.
> >
> > While I don't see an ideal solution my preference for a compromise
> > solution would be option 2 above.  But I think it worth a wider
> > discussion to see if a better solution can be found.
> >
> > 73 Rex VK7MO
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > wsjt-devel mailing list
> > wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
> >
>
>
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>
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Re: [wsjt-devel] TX audio setting on RC4

[Joe Taylor]

Hi Rex,

The general policy in WSJT-X is that we don't try to "remember" user 
settings by mode, band, or whatever.


If you want parameters in reset to previously selected values according 
to band or mode, you should define a Configuration for each frequently 
used combination, and give it a convenient name.  You can have a dozen 
or more configurations, each one set up the way you want.  Don't just 
switch to Echo mode, switch to your Echo configuration.  If you use both 
Q65-60D and Q65-60E frequently, don't just use the ABCDE spinner --

define a configuration for submode.

Doesn't this approach solve your problem as well as any other scheme 
could do?


-- 73, Joe, K1JT

On 4/20/2021 7:22 PM, Rex Moncur wrote:
On RC3 Q65 automatically set the TX audio frequency to 1000 Hz for 
Q65-60D (as well as the A to C sub-modes) and to 700 Hz for the E sub 
modes.  That worked well for the upper microwave users and kept the 
audio frequency within the bandpass of most SSB transceivers.


Some VHF operators who use the narrow sub-modes asked that the TX audio 
frequency be held constant at where it was last set and this was 
introduced in RC4 with a red warning if the audio frequency was likely 
to go outside the Bandpass.  The VHF operators argued in part that the 
RC3 method would result in operators tending to focus on 1000 Hz and be 
on top of each other.


RC4 does however introduce a problem in that if you change to say WSPR 
or echo mode the TX audio frequency is moved up to 1500 Hz and remains 
at this when you go back to Q65. EME operators often do an echo test to 
establish that their station is working prior to moving to another mode 
and thus end up TXing Q65 on 1500 Hzrather than 1000 Hz which is 
standard at the upper microwaves.   This is a particular problem for 
weak signal microwave users who typically use a low Ftol and single 
decodesand do not notice that the TX audio frequency has been moved up 
to 1500 Hz.  The problem is further exacerbated if you are running a 
sked with a weak station and use the 1000 Hz tune tone to establish that 
both stations are on frequency and that you have viable signals.  In 
this case the 1000 Hz tune tone does in fact show up at 1000 Hz, 
indicating you are on frequency, but when you change to transmit 
messages they come out at 1500 Hz and are generally outside Ftol and 
thus do not decode.


I can see a number options to mitigate these conflicting requirements 
although none are perfect, for example:


1. The RC4 method could be changed such that all modes always returns to 
the last TX audio frequency in use for that"mode".  While this will work 
for microwave operators who are exactly on frequency  the audio 
frequency will sometimes be changed off 1000 Hz to tune in a station off 
frequency so it is less than ideal.


2. The RC3 method could be applied ifthe higher microwave frequencies 
are selected and the RC4 method (modified to come back to the last 
frequency used for each mode)  if VHF and lower microwave frequencies 
are selected.  The problem is that there is no clear frequency boundary 
where one or other method is preferred.  One possibility would be the 
modified RC4 method up to and including the 3.4 GHz band MHz and  the 
RC3 method above that.  The disadvantage of this approach is that people 
would need to understand that if they changed to the higher microwave 
frequencies the operating method has changed.


While I don't see an ideal solution my preference for a compromise 
solution would be option 2 above.  But I think it worth a wider 
discussion to see if a better solution can be found.


73 Rex VK7MO



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[wsjt-devel] TX audio setting on RC4

[Rex Moncur]

On RC3 Q65 automatically set the TX audio frequency to 1000 Hz for Q65-60D
(as well as the A to C sub-modes) and to 700 Hz for the E sub modes.  That
worked well for the upper microwave users and kept the audio frequency
within the bandpass of most SSB transceivers.

 

Some VHF operators who use the narrow sub-modes asked that the TX audio
frequency be held constant at where it was last set and this was introduced
in RC4 with a red warning if the audio frequency was likely to go outside
the Bandpass.  The VHF operators argued in part that the RC3 method would
result in operators tending to focus on 1000 Hz and be on top of each other.

 

RC4 does however introduce a problem in that if you change to say WSPR or
echo mode the TX audio frequency is moved up to 1500 Hz and remains at this
when you go back to Q65. EME operators often do an echo test to establish
that their station is working prior to moving to another mode and thus end
up TXing Q65 on 1500 Hz rather than 1000 Hz which is standard at the upper
microwaves.   This is a particular problem for weak signal microwave users
who typically use a low Ftol and single decodes and do not notice that the
TX audio frequency has been moved up to 1500 Hz.  The problem is further
exacerbated if you are running a sked with a weak station and use the 1000
Hz tune tone to establish that both stations are on frequency and that you
have viable signals.  In this case the 1000 Hz tune tone does in fact show
up at 1000 Hz, indicating you are on frequency, but when you change to
transmit messages they come out at 1500 Hz and are generally outside Ftol
and thus do not decode.  

 

I can see a number options to mitigate these conflicting requirements
although none are perfect, for example:

 

1.  The RC4 method could be changed  such that all modes always returns to
the last TX audio frequency in use for that "mode".  While this will work
for microwave operators who are exactly on frequency  the audio frequency
will sometimes be changed off 1000 Hz to tune in a station off frequency so
it is less than ideal.

 

2. The RC3 method could be applied if the higher microwave frequencies are
selected and the RC4 method (modified to come back to the last frequency
used for each mode)  if VHF and lower microwave frequencies are selected.
The problem is that there is no clear frequency boundary where one or other
method is preferred.  One possibility would be the modified RC4 method up to
and including the 3.4 GHz band MHz and  the RC3 method above that.  The
disadvantage of this approach is that people would need to understand that
if they changed to the higher microwave frequencies the operating method has
changed.

 

 

While I don't see an ideal solution my preference for a compromise solution
would be option 2 above.  But I think it worth a wider discussion to see if
a better solution can be found.

 

73 Rex VK7MO

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