Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[Stefan Baur]

Am 13.06.2017 um 23:20 schrieb Troels Arvin:
> It's about the support packaging:

>  - Donation-based support is very hard to get manager approval for.

We don't do that.  We're not a registered charity or anything like that,
so we can't even accept donations.  We're a company.  We offer support
and services (in various forms), and charge money for it, with proper
invoices.
You can sponsor a particular bug fix, feature development, or our annual
community event, if you like, and have your company listed as sponsor,
but still, you're getting a defined service for your money, and a proper
invoice with that.


>  - The other options are somewhat hard to explain to someone who's to 
> approve purchasing support, I think. I would suggest looking at how 
> Mathias Kettner's Check_MK support sells packages of "support 
> credits" (which run out after a year or so, so that the support 
> organization doesn't over the years build up a pile of obligations to 
> support credit package holders). The support credit packages may be 
> bought using a credit card form[1]. Then, when there's a need for 
> support, it costs X credits, based on the complexity of the case (which 
> might include feature-development.

Guess what, it's even easier with us.  You don't have to buy credits in
advance, you pay us on demand when you have an issue.  No contract
needed for that.

The only time when we regularly charge you money is when you sign up for
a support contract because you insist on getting a, say, guaranteed 4h
response time on all support issues.

If you don't need that, feel free to holler when you have an issue and
we'll respond with a quote (in "x hours equaling y EUR" rather than "x
credits equaling y EUR") as soon as we can fit your request in.  No
monthly fees, no upfront payment, only an invoice when you had an issue
you wanted us to fix.

I don't see why we should complicate things by adding an intermediate
"credits" layer. For each bug fix/feature development, there's a certain
amount of work needed that can be measured/estimated in hours, and
there's a hourly rate, so you can calculate the total amount it will cost.
This sounds more like a ripoff tactic to me - obscuring the actual
amount of hours needed to work on a problem behind some magic "credits"
calculation.  Basically, when we had a slow month, we could claim a
rather trivial issue would need 3 credits to fix, when it is actually
only 1 credit - and you, as the customer, would have no way of proving
us wrong.  On the other hand, if we tell you we need 5 hours to change a
known setting in your /etc/x2go/x2goserver.conf, you could rightfully
say "My 15-year old niece who's never touched a Linux system before
could do that in 5 minutes!"

You don't buy credits from a plumber or electrician, either, you pay
them by the hour after receiving a quote - same goes for us.

You have a need for a janitor that is available on call, but on average,
only spends 4 hours per month on site, you enter a contract that he's
getting paid for the on-call duty, plus for the actual 4 hours.  If
there's a month where he's working in excess of those 4 hours, you pay
him for the extra hours on top.  Guess what, same goes for us, too -
that's how our support contracts work.

And we do offer electronic invoices, however, as German law permits
this, only as protected PDFs attached to a GPG-signed E-Mail, nothing
more complex/fancy.

The only thing where I have to give you a definite "no" as an answer is
the credit card payment - it's too much of a hassle for us, as companies
actually prefer paying by wire transfer by far - a request to pay via CC
comes up every 1 or 2 years; that's just not worth the bureaucratic
effort required to accept CC payments.

Kind Regards,
Stefan Baur

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Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[Troels Arvin]

Hello Stefan,

You wrote:
> Uuuh, what makes you think there is none?

It's about the support packaging:

 - Donation-based support is very hard to get manager approval for.

 - The other options are somewhat hard to explain to someone who's to 
approve purchasing support, I think. I would suggest looking at how 
Mathias Kettner's Check_MK support sells packages of "support 
credits" (which run out after a year or so, so that the support 
organization doesn't over the years build up a pile of obligations to 
support credit package holders). The support credit packages may be 
bought using a credit card form[1]. Then, when there's a need for 
support, it costs X credits, based on the complexity of the case (which 
might include feature-development.



Notes:
1: Being able to get electronic invoices would be even better:
http://peppol.eu/
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32014L0055

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Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[Stefan Baur]

Am 13.06.2017 um 22:00 schrieb Troels Arvin:
> (If there were a more enterprise-friendly support setup for X2Go instead 
> of the donation-option, then I think I could convince my organization to 
> purchase some kind of support offering.)

Uuuh, what makes you think there is none?
 - it's right in
the Wiki's topmost navigation block.


X2Go also has a commercial side, where various companies - including my
own - offer support contracts with guaranteed response times as well as
consultancy and paid-for development work if someone wants to see a bug
fixed or a new feature added in a certain time frame. What makes my
company special is, IMHO:

1) I'm the current X2Go Project/Community Coordinator, so the
development lead and the developers tend to listen to me.
2) As far as I know, we are the only company providing X2Go support that
isn't a one-man-show.
3) We sub-contract other developers from the X2Go community on demand,
so you only have one person you need to talk to - me - and you will only
receive one invoice, even if the task involved several freelance or
part-time X2Go developers.

Our hourly rate for consultancy work and fixing issues outside of a
support contract is 125 EUR. With a support contract, you get guaranteed
response times and lower hourly rates if you buy a certain amount of
hours in advance.


Kind Regards,
Stefan Baur

-- 
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Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur
Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364
Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243



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Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[Robert Dinse]

 I only have 20mbit/s from home and 100mbit/s at co-lo and is working
fine, so 2.3gb should be more than adequate.

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On Tue, 13 Jun 2017, brian town wrote:


Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 16:33:43 -0400
From: brian town 
To: Walid MOGHRABI 
Cc: x2go-user 
Subject: Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

The thin client point was only to express my setup as well and the findings
I had with x2go/VNC/NX/etc. I believe it to be more of a bandwidth issue,
as our bandwidth in our LAN is only giving out 2.3gb right now

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Walid MOGHRABI 
À: "Daniel Lindgren" 
Cc: "x2go-user" 
Envoyé: Mardi 13 Juin 2017 15:57:57
Objet: Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP


I agree with Walid about XRDP being super fast and snappy with low
resource intensive desktops. It worked really well for me with a XFCE set
up on one project I was working on. However both XRDP and X2GO could not
provide a good visualization for my current project that has thin clients
pulling down LTSP images. The LTSP desktop images are all low resource but
we use them as a jumping point to connect to Red Hat VMs. The only
connection method I found that could support a decent desktop experience
for our users as with X11VNC + XDMCP. I went through xrdp/x2go/NX and even
Horizon View and all had either poor performance or in the case of Horizon
View were just not really meant for Linux yet (the support is pretty awful).


On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 9:40 AM, Daniel Lindgren < bd.d...@gmail.com >
wrote:



Hi all,


I have used both xrdp and X2Go for a few years, just personal use, not
professional/work related.


I've recently upgraded to Debian 9 with KDE Plasma 5 and had some issues
with X2Go, checked the wiki and found that Plasma 5 is unsupported at the
moment. I researched alternatives and discovered ThinLinc.


It's a commercial software, but free for home use up to 5 concurrent
users. Works with Plasma 5 and performance is good, at least for my use
case.


When/if X2Go gains support for Plasma 5 I may go back, but for now I can't
use it.


Cheers,
Daniel
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Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[brian town]

The thin client point was only to express my setup as well and the findings
I had with x2go/VNC/NX/etc. I believe it to be more of a bandwidth issue,
as our bandwidth in our LAN is only giving out 2.3gb right now

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Walid MOGHRABI  wrote:

> Brian, I don't really understand your point about your thin clients, LTSP
> images and remote connection to RedHat VMs.
>
> From what I can tell, the lower spec thin clients we have are older Wyse
> celeron based with 1Gb of RAM.
> My thin client boot from LAN with the TCE-NG setup and simply download a
> 230MB OS image and run from it diskless.
> They start the X2Go client in display manager mode and eat about 512MB
> RAM, OS image included (running apps goes for about 200MB).
> Since it's direct X2Go connection, there is no local stuff, only remote
> and these low specs Thin Clients perform as good as the higher specs PCs we
> converted to Thin Clients and which are 4GB, Core i3/i5 and more ...
>
>
> Regards,
> Walid Moghrabi
>
> TRAVAUX.COM
> BAT I - PARC CEZANNE 2 290 AVENUE GALILEE - CS 80403
> 13591 AIX EN PROVENCE CEDEX 3
>
> - Mail original -
>
> De: "brian town" 
> À: "Daniel Lindgren" 
> Cc: "x2go-user" 
> Envoyé: Mardi 13 Juin 2017 15:57:57
> Objet: Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP
>
>
> I agree with Walid about XRDP being super fast and snappy with low
> resource intensive desktops. It worked really well for me with a XFCE set
> up on one project I was working on. However both XRDP and X2GO could not
> provide a good visualization for my current project that has thin clients
> pulling down LTSP images. The LTSP desktop images are all low resource but
> we use them as a jumping point to connect to Red Hat VMs. The only
> connection method I found that could support a decent desktop experience
> for our users as with X11VNC + XDMCP. I went through xrdp/x2go/NX and even
> Horizon View and all had either poor performance or in the case of Horizon
> View were just not really meant for Linux yet (the support is pretty awful).
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 9:40 AM, Daniel Lindgren < bd.d...@gmail.com >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
> I have used both xrdp and X2Go for a few years, just personal use, not
> professional/work related.
>
>
> I've recently upgraded to Debian 9 with KDE Plasma 5 and had some issues
> with X2Go, checked the wiki and found that Plasma 5 is unsupported at the
> moment. I researched alternatives and discovered ThinLinc.
>
>
> It's a commercial software, but free for home use up to 5 concurrent
> users. Works with Plasma 5 and performance is good, at least for my use
> case.
>
>
> When/if X2Go gains support for Plasma 5 I may go back, but for now I can't
> use it.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Daniel
> ___
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>
>
>
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Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[Robert Dinse]

 Seems to be a windows specific issue.  I do not see these problems with
Ubuntu (zesty 17.04).  I did built the nx-libs so I could use nightly builds
which has required version of xrandr.  Ubuntu 16.04 works out of the box. 
Can't wait until Wayland screws everything up.


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On Tue, 13 Jun 2017, Troels Arvin wrote:


Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 20:00:36 + (UTC)
From: Troels Arvin 
To: x2go-user@lists.x2go.org
Subject: Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

Hello,

Stefan wrote:

After having spent very much time trying to optimise X2Go to make it
perform acceptably, I gave up.


I'm sad to say I've also given up :-(
It's due to this: https://bugs.x2go.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1085

(If there were a more enterprise-friendly support setup for X2Go instead
of the donation-option, then I think I could convince my organization to
purchase some kind of support offering.)

Anyway:

I know some people who are happily using MobaXterm:
http://www.mobatek.net/
It seems that with MobaXterm product, it's possible to log in using SSH
and thereby have the user administration integrated with Active
Directory, etc. (Which is better than XRDP and plain old VNC, as far as I
know).

--
Troels

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Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[Troels Arvin]

Hello,

Stefan wrote:
> After having spent very much time trying to optimise X2Go to make it
> perform acceptably, I gave up.

I'm sad to say I've also given up :-(
It's due to this: https://bugs.x2go.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1085

(If there were a more enterprise-friendly support setup for X2Go instead 
of the donation-option, then I think I could convince my organization to 
purchase some kind of support offering.)

Anyway:

I know some people who are happily using MobaXterm:
http://www.mobatek.net/
It seems that with MobaXterm product, it's possible to log in using SSH 
and thereby have the user administration integrated with Active 
Directory, etc. (Which is better than XRDP and plain old VNC, as far as I 
know).

-- 
Troels

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Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[Walid MOGHRABI]

Brian, I don't really understand your point about your thin clients, LTSP 
images and remote connection to RedHat VMs.

From what I can tell, the lower spec thin clients we have are older Wyse 
celeron based with 1Gb of RAM.
My thin client boot from LAN with the TCE-NG setup and simply download a 230MB 
OS image and run from it diskless.
They start the X2Go client in display manager mode and eat about 512MB RAM, OS 
image included (running apps goes for about 200MB).
Since it's direct X2Go connection, there is no local stuff, only remote and 
these low specs Thin Clients perform as good as the higher specs PCs we 
converted to Thin Clients and which are 4GB, Core i3/i5 and more ...


Regards,
Walid Moghrabi

TRAVAUX.COM
BAT I - PARC CEZANNE 2 290 AVENUE GALILEE - CS 80403
13591 AIX EN PROVENCE CEDEX 3

- Mail original - 

De: "brian town"  
À: "Daniel Lindgren"  
Cc: "x2go-user"  
Envoyé: Mardi 13 Juin 2017 15:57:57 
Objet: Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP 


I agree with Walid about XRDP being super fast and snappy with low resource 
intensive desktops. It worked really well for me with a XFCE set up on one 
project I was working on. However both XRDP and X2GO could not provide a good 
visualization for my current project that has thin clients pulling down LTSP 
images. The LTSP desktop images are all low resource but we use them as a 
jumping point to connect to Red Hat VMs. The only connection method I found 
that could support a decent desktop experience for our users as with X11VNC + 
XDMCP. I went through xrdp/x2go/NX and even Horizon View and all had either 
poor performance or in the case of Horizon View were just not really meant for 
Linux yet (the support is pretty awful). 


On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 9:40 AM, Daniel Lindgren < bd.d...@gmail.com > wrote: 



Hi all, 


I have used both xrdp and X2Go for a few years, just personal use, not 
professional/work related. 


I've recently upgraded to Debian 9 with KDE Plasma 5 and had some issues with 
X2Go, checked the wiki and found that Plasma 5 is unsupported at the moment. I 
researched alternatives and discovered ThinLinc. 


It's a commercial software, but free for home use up to 5 concurrent users. 
Works with Plasma 5 and performance is good, at least for my use case. 


When/if X2Go gains support for Plasma 5 I may go back, but for now I can't use 
it. 


Cheers, 
Daniel 
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Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[brian town]

I agree with Walid about XRDP being super fast and snappy with low resource
intensive desktops. It worked really well for me with a XFCE set up on one
project I was working on. However both XRDP and X2GO could not provide a
good visualization for my current project that has thin clients pulling
down LTSP images. The LTSP desktop images are all low resource but we use
them as a jumping point to connect to Red Hat VMs. The only connection
method I found that could support a decent desktop experience for our users
as with X11VNC + XDMCP. I went through xrdp/x2go/NX and even Horizon View
and all had either poor performance or in the case of Horizon View were
just not really meant for Linux yet (the support is pretty awful).

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 9:40 AM, Daniel Lindgren  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have used both xrdp and X2Go for a few years, just personal use, not
> professional/work related.
>
> I've recently upgraded to Debian 9 with KDE Plasma 5 and had some issues
> with X2Go, checked the wiki and found that Plasma 5 is unsupported at the
> moment. I researched alternatives and discovered ThinLinc.
>
> It's a commercial software, but free for home use up to 5 concurrent
> users. Works with Plasma 5 and performance is good, at least for my use
> case.
>
> When/if X2Go gains support for Plasma 5 I may go back, but for now I can't
> use it.
>
> Cheers,
> Daniel
>
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Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[Daniel Lindgren]

Hi all,

I have used both xrdp and X2Go for a few years, just personal use, not
professional/work related.

I've recently upgraded to Debian 9 with KDE Plasma 5 and had some issues
with X2Go, checked the wiki and found that Plasma 5 is unsupported at the
moment. I researched alternatives and discovered ThinLinc.

It's a commercial software, but free for home use up to 5 concurrent users.
Works with Plasma 5 and performance is good, at least for my use case.

When/if X2Go gains support for Plasma 5 I may go back, but for now I can't
use it.

Cheers,
Daniel
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Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[Walid MOGHRABI]

Hi Stefan,

I went through the same problems and same tests comparing both X2Go to XRDP ... 
If it is of any help, here are my thinking :

XRDP is a good solution, it is efficient and works really well but it has some 
drawbacks too.
First, it lacks all the middleware we find with X2Go, especially the broker, 
the session management, the TCE settings, ...
It is mostly a good and efficient component for remote access but this is raw 
and even if it is not that complicated to setup, in a complex situation where 
you need brokerage, session management, AD integration, ... it makes things a 
bit more complicated.

On the performances side, things are not that simple ...
XRDP seem to offer a good GLX support with a fast software renderer so even h/w 
accelerated stuff just work, with limitations due to the remote thing but at 
least, it works, even h/w accelerated desktops such as Gnome 3, Unity, KDE, ... 
Not very fast but it works.
With less demanding desktops such as MATE or XFCE, it really flies and there a 
re a few bugs which even disappear such as these :

https://github.com/ArcticaProject/nx-libs/issues/337
https://github.com/ArcticaProject/nx-libs/issues/336
https://github.com/ArcticaProject/nx-libs/issues/301

Even applications that are quite slow under X2Go (presently, webkit based 
applications such as Chrome/Chromium and even Firefox without XRender=True)

But playing with some settings, you can get a very usable and snappy solution 
with all the advantages of X2Go that I already cited.
Here is my use case :

I use X2Go for a complete TCE setup (thin clients for my company) with about 
150 users connecting a farm for 32 servers.
Each server is installed with a custom Ubuntu 16.04 server + lightweight MATE 
desktop.
Each TCE boot straights from the network loading a minimalistic Ubuntu 16.04 
server + X2Go as display manager conencting to a X2Go session broker.
Each session is a full screen desktop with 1920x1080 resolution on a 100MB 
local LAN network.

I configured the session with these settings :

* Pack method : 64k-jpeg
* Speed : LAN
* Resolution : Fullscreen 1920x1080
* Sound : On with Pulseaudio

With these settings in this setup, even Chromium is usable, it is still beyond 
other applications such as LibreOffice, Gimp, the whole desktop itself and many 
more applications but fast enough for my users to work comfortably.

To me, X2Go is a real gain on the overall but I do agree that XRDP is faster on 
many points but X2Go is just more usable and complete.
And last but not least, there is active development by the Arctica team on the 
NX-Libs (what is the X2Go equivalent of XRDP in fact) and a lot of good things 
are coming in a near future, I just hope "near" is not too far from now.

Regards,
Walid Moghrabi

TRAVAUX.COM
BAT I - PARC CEZANNE 2 290 AVENUE GALILEE - CS 80403
13591 AIX EN PROVENCE CEDEX 3

- Mail original - 

De: "Stefan Seidel"  
À: x2go-user@lists.x2go.org 
Envoyé: Mardi 13 Juin 2017 12:27:28 
Objet: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP 


Hi, 

I have been trying to get X2Go to a usable state for a long time. Some may 
remember that I posted about slow performance even with Gigabit networking, 
mostly web browser usage was problematic. 

After having spent very much time trying to optimise X2Go to make it perform 
acceptably, I gave up. 

I then found and tried XRDP, and all my problems are solved. Although XRDP 
(with xorgxrdp drivers) uses more bandwith than X2Go, it is much more usable in 
almost all situations. Even ADSL links work ok, but with Gigabit connectivity 
it really flies (including video). 

I don't like to advertise for other "products", but this has made such a 
difference that I could not withhold this information from those who are not 
satisfied with X2Go. 

Maybe as a means of making X2Go better, I would encourage X2Go developers to 
install XRDP on a test server and test and compare its performance to X2Go. I 
would be surprised if X2Go would perform better - in fact I was surprised how 
much better XRDP was. Maybe there are things that can be done in X2Go to make 
it better by looking at how XRDP does things. 

I really wanted X2Go to work, but somehow it didn't work for me. 
I wish you all the best for improving the project in the future! 

Stefan 
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Re: [X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[Marat Khalili]

Hello Stefan,

Thank you very much for the information. I'm also choosing among remote 
access technologies now, although I do not observe problems you describe 
with X2Go.


Did you try to simply use X protocol? Does XRDP provide any benefits?

Also, in your comparisons did you use SSH tunnelling, plain TCP, or TCP+UDP?

--

With Best Regards,
Marat Khalili

On 13/06/17 13:27, Stefan Seidel wrote:


Hi,

I have been trying to get X2Go to a usable state for a long time. Some 
may remember that I posted about slow performance even with Gigabit 
networking, mostly web browser usage was problematic.


After having spent very much time trying to optimise X2Go to make it 
perform acceptably, I gave up.


I then found and tried XRDP, and all my problems are solved. Although 
XRDP (with xorgxrdp drivers) uses more bandwith than X2Go, it is much 
more usable in almost all situations. Even ADSL links work ok, but 
with Gigabit connectivity it really flies (including video).


I don't like to advertise for other "products", but this has made such 
a difference that I could not withhold this information from those who 
are not satisfied with X2Go.


Maybe as a means of making X2Go better, I would encourage X2Go 
developers to install XRDP on a test server and test and compare its 
performance to X2Go. I would be surprised if X2Go would perform better 
- in fact I was surprised how much better XRDP was. Maybe there are 
things that can be done in X2Go to make it better by looking at how 
XRDP does things.


I really wanted X2Go to work, but somehow it didn't work for me.

I wish you all the best for improving the project in the future!

Stefan



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[X2Go-User] X2Go vs. XRDP

[Stefan Seidel]

Hi,

I have been trying to get X2Go to a usable state for a long time. Some may 
remember that I posted about slow performance even with Gigabit networking, 
mostly web browser usage was problematic.

After having spent very much time trying to optimise X2Go to make it perform 
acceptably, I gave up.

I then found and tried XRDP, and all my problems are solved. Although XRDP 
(with 
xorgxrdp drivers) uses more bandwith than X2Go, it is much more usable in 
almost 
all situations. Even ADSL links work ok, but with Gigabit connectivity it 
really flies 
(including video).

I don't like to advertise for other "products", but this has made such a 
difference 
that I could not withhold this information from those who are not satisfied 
with 
X2Go.

Maybe as a means of making X2Go better, I would encourage X2Go developers to 
install XRDP on a test server and test and compare its performance to X2Go. I 
would 
be surprised if X2Go would perform better - in fact I was surprised how much 
better 
XRDP was. Maybe there are things that can be done in X2Go to make it better by 
looking at how XRDP does things.

I really wanted X2Go to work, but somehow it didn't work for me.
I wish you all the best for improving the project in the future!

Stefan
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Re: [X2Go-User] Worse image quality after upgrading Firefox to 52 ESR

[Stefan Seidel]

Hi,

Firefox 47 disabled XRender by default. It means that 
remote protocols will see the whole Firefox content as 
image and deal with it accordingly.

For now you can set xrender to true (in about:config 
search for xrender). It will probably stop working at some 
point.

Stefan
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