Re: [XeTeX] fontspec and scaling
2015-01-20 3:01 GMT+01:00 Mike Maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu: On 1/17/2015 3:57 PM, Zdenek Wagner wrote: 2015-01-17 20:39 GMT+01:00 Mike Maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu: ...I guess my question is: _If_ a font provides optical sizes, then presumably telling Fontspec which point size to use causes it to choose the optical size provided in the font (assuming one exists for the requested point size). If this is correct, then to re-phrase my original question: If instead of specifying a point size for a particular font/stretch of text, I tell Fontspec to use scaling, then does it choose the closest optical point size provided in the font (and maybe magnify/demagnify it slightly if the scaling doesn't result in an exact optical point size)? Or does Fontspec instead magnify/demagnify the glyphs from the document's default point size? See section 7.6 (page 21) of the fontspec manual, it is explained there. I read that, but it doesn't refer to the 'scaling' attribute (it does use \scalebox in example 16, but I presume that's different). Maybe the fact that it doesn't mention scaling is my clue; scaling simply resizes whatever optical size is already chosen? Maybe the example is not clearly explained. \Huge sets the size to 24pt and it is then scaled by 0.4, thus the resulting size is approximately 10pt. If there were no optical sizes, both line will be the same. However, due to automatically selected optical size the lower line is narrower with thinner stems. If I understand the scaling attribute correctly, let say, you have scaling=1.4 and you request \normalsize which id 10pt. Fontspec will multiply it and request 14pt font size instead. If there is an optical size available, it will be used. If that's correct, then I should be using the 'OpticalSize' attribute instead of 'scaling'. But how do I know whether a font supports optical sizes (and which specific sizes it has)? Are such sizes embedded within a single font file, or do TTF fonts that support this have separate files for specific sizes? There's nothing obvious in the output of fc-list -v. fontinfo -z FILENAME -- Mike Maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu My definition of an interesting universe is one that has the capacity to study itself. --Stephen Eastmond Zdeněk Wagner http://hroch486.icpf.cas.cz/wagner/ http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] fontspec and scaling
On 2015-01-20 04:55, Zdenek Wagner wrote: If I understand the scaling attribute correctly, let say, you have scaling=1.4 and you request \normalsize which id 10pt. Fontspec will multiply it and request 14pt font size instead. If there is an optical size available, it will be used. This last was my question: will the scaling attribute in Fontspec automatically use an optical size (or since scaling will probably not result in an exact optical size, will Fontspec scale the closest optical size). ...how do I know whether a font supports optical sizes (and which specific sizes it has)? fontinfo -z FILENAME There isn't any 'fontinfo' program on our Linux system, and I couldn't find such a program in a websearch. (There is a Firefox plugin by that name, written by Jonathan Kew, but that doesn't seem to be what you're referring to. Also some libraries for Python etc.) There is however a font information dialog box in FontForge. One of its tabs is Size. For the font I'm working with (MvElaafNormal.otf.ttf), the design size shows up as 0.0 pts. I suspect that means there are no optical sizes in this font. But none of the other fonts I looked at with FontForge (including Charis SIL and several free Adobe fonts) have anything but 0.0pts in the design size. Maybe it's only very high end fonts that have multiple optical sizes? In which case I've been on a wild goose chase worrying about whether Fontspec's scaling function will choose the appropriate optical size... Mike Maxwell University of Maryland -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] fontspec and scaling
2015-01-20 17:50 GMT+01:00 maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu: On 2015-01-20 04:55, Zdenek Wagner wrote: If I understand the scaling attribute correctly, let say, you have scaling=1.4 and you request \normalsize which id 10pt. Fontspec will multiply it and request 14pt font size instead. If there is an optical size available, it will be used. This last was my question: will the scaling attribute in Fontspec automatically use an optical size (or since scaling will probably not result in an exact optical size, will Fontspec scale the closest optical size). I hope so but you can always explicitly specify which optical sizes should be used for which font size. ...how do I know whether a font supports optical sizes (and which specific sizes it has)? fontinfo -z FILENAME My fault, I wanted to write otfinfo -z FILENAME There isn't any 'fontinfo' program on our Linux system, and I couldn't find such a program in a websearch. (There is a Firefox plugin by that name, written by Jonathan Kew, but that doesn't seem to be what you're referring to. Also some libraries for Python etc.) There is however a font information dialog box in FontForge. One of its tabs is Size. For the font I'm working with (MvElaafNormal.otf.ttf), the design size shows up as 0.0 pts. I suspect that means there are no optical sizes in this font. But none of the other fonts I looked at with FontForge (including Charis SIL and several free Adobe fonts) have anything but 0.0pts in the design size. Maybe it's only very high end fonts that have multiple optical sizes? In which case I've been on a wild goose chase worrying about whether Fontspec's scaling function will choose the appropriate optical size... Mike Maxwell University of Maryland Zdeněk Wagner http://hroch486.icpf.cas.cz/wagner/ http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] fontspec and scaling
On 1/17/2015 3:57 PM, Zdenek Wagner wrote: 2015-01-17 20:39 GMT+01:00 Mike Maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu: ...I guess my question is: _If_ a font provides optical sizes, then presumably telling Fontspec which point size to use causes it to choose the optical size provided in the font (assuming one exists for the requested point size). If this is correct, then to re-phrase my original question: If instead of specifying a point size for a particular font/stretch of text, I tell Fontspec to use scaling, then does it choose the closest optical point size provided in the font (and maybe magnify/demagnify it slightly if the scaling doesn't result in an exact optical point size)? Or does Fontspec instead magnify/demagnify the glyphs from the document's default point size? See section 7.6 (page 21) of the fontspec manual, it is explained there. I read that, but it doesn't refer to the 'scaling' attribute (it does use \scalebox in example 16, but I presume that's different). Maybe the fact that it doesn't mention scaling is my clue; scaling simply resizes whatever optical size is already chosen? If that's correct, then I should be using the 'OpticalSize' attribute instead of 'scaling'. But how do I know whether a font supports optical sizes (and which specific sizes it has)? Are such sizes embedded within a single font file, or do TTF fonts that support this have separate files for specific sizes? There's nothing obvious in the output of fc-list -v. -- Mike Maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu My definition of an interesting universe is one that has the capacity to study itself. --Stephen Eastmond -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] fontspec and scaling
2015-01-17 20:39 GMT+01:00 Mike Maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu: On 1/17/2015 9:08 AM, Zdenek Wagner wrote: Fontspec does not do any magic. It just provides human friendly interface to the raw commands. It is somewhere in between the raw commands and GUI selection. It cannot in principle emulate optical sizes but it has properties for selecting them if they are available in the font. Thanks for the response. I guess my question is: _If_ a font provides optical sizes, then presumably telling Fontspec which point size to use causes it to choose the optical size provided in the font (assuming one exists for the requested point size). If this is correct, then to re-phrase my original question: If instead of specifying a point size for a particular font/stretch of text, I tell Fontspec to use scaling, then does it choose the closest optical point size provided in the font (and maybe magnify/demagnify it slightly if the scaling doesn't result in an exact optical point size)? Or does Fontspec instead magnify/demagnify the glyphs from the document's default point size? See section 7.6 (page 21) of the fontspec manual, it is explained there. -- Mike Maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu My definition of an interesting universe is one that has the capacity to study itself. --Stephen Eastmond Zdeněk Wagner http://hroch486.icpf.cas.cz/wagner/ http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] fontspec and scaling
On 1/17/2015 9:08 AM, Zdenek Wagner wrote: Fontspec does not do any magic. It just provides human friendly interface to the raw commands. It is somewhere in between the raw commands and GUI selection. It cannot in principle emulate optical sizes but it has properties for selecting them if they are available in the font. Thanks for the response. I guess my question is: _If_ a font provides optical sizes, then presumably telling Fontspec which point size to use causes it to choose the optical size provided in the font (assuming one exists for the requested point size). If this is correct, then to re-phrase my original question: If instead of specifying a point size for a particular font/stretch of text, I tell Fontspec to use scaling, then does it choose the closest optical point size provided in the font (and maybe magnify/demagnify it slightly if the scaling doesn't result in an exact optical point size)? Or does Fontspec instead magnify/demagnify the glyphs from the document's default point size? -- Mike Maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu My definition of an interesting universe is one that has the capacity to study itself. --Stephen Eastmond -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] fontspec and scaling
2015-01-16 23:19 GMT+01:00 maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu:
I have a question about how scaling is done in fontspec.
I am not an expert but there is no answer so far. I will add my opinion.
We produce some multi-script documents (grammars). It's sometimes the case
that for the non-Roman script, the glyphs at the normal point size seem (in
comparison with the Roman script glyphs) small. For example, we're using a
Dhivehi (Thaana script) font which at any given point size looks quite a bit
smaller than the Roman script. In part, this difference is probably
compensating for the fact that vowel get stacked above (or occasionally
below) consonant characters, so the Thaana consonant and vowel glyphs are
smaller to make the line height similar to what you'd get with a Roman font
at the same point size. Regardless, the Thaana is hard to read unless we
make it somewhat larger; at the same time, I don't want to go to a larger
Roman point size. (Frankly, at my age *any* font is hard to read at a
normal point size. But I won't go there...)
This may happen with many scripts. I wrote an article in Hindi which
contained a few wrods in Czech, Englich, and Russian. If I used the
same size for all fonts, the result looked quite ugly. It was
necessary to scale them in order to make them visually compatible.
The same thing happens with Arabic, particularly in the Nastaliq style.
In order to enlarge these Thaana glyphs into something readable at a given
point size, I've used fontspec's scaling attribute, e.g.
\newfontfamily\thaanafont[Scale=1.4,Script=thaa]{Mv Elaaf Normal}
Mv Elaaf Normal is an OpenType font.
One effect of this is that for any line where a Thaana word appears, the
separation between that line and the following line increases.
This may be solved by setting \lineskiplimit to zero or even to a
negative value. It is explained in the TeXbook. However, Nastaleeq is
usually very tall, Urdu word مجھے written in Nastaleeq is almost
vertical. I have looked into a textbook of Urdu (Teach Yourself Urdu).
If a paragraph is written in Urdu only, the font is quite large. In
English paragraphs the Nastaleeq font used is smaller in order to fit
the Urdu words without the need of extending the line spacing.
Apart from this, is there any negative? I'm not familiar with font
technology, but I have heard that it's not the best method to simply magnify
a font to be a larger size; rather, some things in glyphs may change in
proportion as the glyphs get bigger. (Or maybe I'm just making that up, I
can't find a reference to it now.)
If you scale the characters, you will not only get bigger characters
but the stems will be thicker. This is the well known problem of small
caps produced by scaling down uppercase letters to 70%. You will have
the same problem in your case. It can only be solved by optical sizes.
Imagine how an Arabic calligrapher works. He uses the same pen no
matter what the character size is, the width of all lines will be the
same. You can achieve the same effect in Metafont if the pen size is
defined as truept independent of the font size. If you generate larger
font, the thickness of the lines will not change. If you enlarge the
font, the lines will become thicker.
How does Fontspec do scaling? Do I get the same typographic results by
using Scale as I would if I simply specified a larger point size?
Fontspec does not do any magic. It just provides human friendly
interface to the raw commands. It is somewhere in between the raw
commands and GUI selection. It cannot in principle emulate optical
sizes but it has properties for selecting them if they are available
in the font.
I am afraid it is impssible to give a universal answer.Of course, the
optical font size should be compatible but the thickness of the stems
should be compatible as well. If you have only one Thaana font, you
should find such a Roman font that can be made visually compatible.
Mike Maxwell
Zdeněk Wagner
http://hroch486.icpf.cas.cz/wagner/
http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
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Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.:
http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
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[XeTeX] fontspec and scaling
I have a question about how scaling is done in fontspec.
We produce some multi-script documents (grammars). It's sometimes the
case that for the non-Roman script, the glyphs at the normal point size
seem (in comparison with the Roman script glyphs) small. For example,
we're using a Dhivehi (Thaana script) font which at any given point size
looks quite a bit smaller than the Roman script. In part, this
difference is probably compensating for the fact that vowel get stacked
above (or occasionally below) consonant characters, so the Thaana
consonant and vowel glyphs are smaller to make the line height similar
to what you'd get with a Roman font at the same point size. Regardless,
the Thaana is hard to read unless we make it somewhat larger; at the
same time, I don't want to go to a larger Roman point size. (Frankly,
at my age *any* font is hard to read at a normal point size. But I
won't go there...)
The same thing happens with Arabic, particularly in the Nastaliq style.
In order to enlarge these Thaana glyphs into something readable at a
given point size, I've used fontspec's scaling attribute, e.g.
\newfontfamily\thaanafont[Scale=1.4,Script=thaa]{Mv Elaaf Normal}
Mv Elaaf Normal is an OpenType font.
One effect of this is that for any line where a Thaana word appears, the
separation between that line and the following line increases.
Apart from this, is there any negative? I'm not familiar with font
technology, but I have heard that it's not the best method to simply
magnify a font to be a larger size; rather, some things in glyphs may
change in proportion as the glyphs get bigger. (Or maybe I'm just
making that up, I can't find a reference to it now.)
How does Fontspec do scaling? Do I get the same typographic results by
using Scale as I would if I simply specified a larger point size?
Mike Maxwell
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