[Zen] Re: Mindfulness
Dana, When I am in the dharma hall and listen to spoken dharma, or when I am in my study and reading written dharma, or when I am walking along a path and experiencing living dharma I am listening to or reading or experiencing dharma at that moment in time. When I leave the dharma hall and go down to the pool hall to shoot some nine-ball, I shoot nine-ball. I don't think back about the dharma talk. Like it says in the movie by the same name: 'That was then - This is now.' Actually is all now. The memory of the dharma talk is a memory now, it's not a dharma talk now. ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Dana S. Leslie" wrote: > > The Wikipedia article on Mindfulness: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness_(Buddhism) > makes a point that, at first blush, seems to run counter to Zen's insistence > upon awareness of 'just here, just now.' In discussing the etymology and > history of use of the Sanskrit, Pali, and Chinese terms usually translated > as 'mindfulness,' it stresses that they include significant reference to > memory, recall, recollection, and other mental faculties related to > awareness of the past. > > Any thoughts on how to reconcile this apparent tension? > > I have been thinking along these lines: When I hear dharma taught, I grasp > it, according to the level of my understanding. But, when I leave the dharma > hall, I 'should' endeavor not to leave my understanding behind. I 'should' > endeavor to bring it forward with me, into each moment, so that it informs > my 'in this moment' awareness of right thought, right conduct, right > speech., Doing so is right mindfulness of the dharma. > > Bill, you may find this issue pointless, as you do not consider zen > Buddhist, or the EFP a part of zen (If I understand you correctly). But, for > those of us who are not quite so iconoclastic , do any of you have any > thoughts/comments on my proposed reconciliation? > > Dana > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] zazen, satori seekers(to Kristy/list)
--- On Thu, 10/2/11, Kristy McClain wrote: >Do we know for sure that Buddha didn't sit on a stump under the bodhi >tree? >*s* ...*smiles*...He could have, but I have yet to come across any info with such. I have yet to see actual documents where the old prince stated that one must sit in a particular position or style, and none other. Having such documents will mean many in today's world will be checking each and every word from every page of such to make sure that an accurate translation will be presented, as opposed to interpretation which much of humanity actually does with anything historical these days >Having had my share of injuries, including a broken ankle along >with several >surgical complications, I have often used a chair over the >years, though I >always used a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do >not, I can see that it >may not be necessary for "proper zazen", which is >good because I don't have >enough for all of people in my class. You can use a safu on a chair if you wish. I personally do not. It would make me too comfortable, and then sway more >As you say well, it isn't about looking like buddha, but being the >buddha we >are, ourselves. This is the BIG problem with the satori seekers. They think satori is outside there somewhere, which is reached through mere thinking and analysis, and nothing else. For such characters to be told that satori is here and now and not later or somewhere else is just too incredible to accept. We as the Zen community receive such teaching time and again. The message is given well and clearly, but the modern Western man/woman has difficulty not only accepting it but also living with it Buddha be praised Mel Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah
nt: Wed, February 9, 2011 3:41:21 PM >Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) > > >Hi Mel, > >*chuckles* > >Thanks for your frank appraisal on this. You bring up many good points. >thanks >for mentioning the stool.. I hadn't thought about that. With the group, I >will >be working with, that won't work for all of them, but its is a real >possibility >for some. For those who can, it offers the bonus of working with their >balance. >Do we know for sure that Buddha didn't sit on a stump under the bodhi tree? >*s* > >Having had my share of injuries, including a broken ankle along with >several >surgical complications, I have often used a chair over the years, though I >always used a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do not, I can see that it >may >not be necessary for "proper zazen", which is good because I don't have >enough >for all of people in my class. The class is for seniors, and will include >zazen, >mindfulness and breathwork, as part of a pain management program. Though it >is >my hope they find it relevant to their own inner awareness. > >I--too, have encountered people in my sanghi's over the years who tend to >think >their pretzel posture somehow elevated their status above the rest of us. >As you >say well, it isn't about looking like buddha, but being the buddha we are, >ourselves. For myself, I'm finding that I am having random moments of that >now, but not as much as before. I have my own frustration s and personal >problems, and have been pretty cynical in recent months. But like all >things-- >this, too , will pass. > >Thanks again, > >Kristy > > > >--- On Wed, 2/9/11, Mel wrote: > > >>From: Mel >>Subject: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) >>To: "zen forum" >>Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 12:17 AM >> >> >> >>Hi Kristy and all >> >>I personally don't know how the traditional full or half lotus, or Burmese >>positions, help in getting back to the original I, or Big Mind. If I had >>been >>born, raised, and educated from within a devout Buddhist family, I'm sure >>I >>would have been introduced into the full lotus position from since a very >>young >>age. However, I discovered Zen in my 20s 20-25 years ago. At best, I can >>do the >>Burmese position, but with my arthritis and lack of flexibility, I often >>use a >>chairin fact a plastic stool I bought for AUS$10. It works just fine >> >>I often end up working much harder(read...right effort) in keeping my >>posture >>straight when I sit on the above chair, which by the way, has no back >>rest. It's >>high enough to keep the thighs almost parallel to the floor, and quite >>comfortable. In the Burmese posture, I have noticed occasionally that I >>sway >>like a coconut tree in the middle of a tropical tyhoon when I'm not >>well-rested >>enough. To keep the posture straight is important, Doing so doesn't cause >>any >>back problems because one is actually using the appropriate muscles and >>right >>effort to keep the back straigtht. Keeping the back straight whilst >>leaning on >>something tend to cause me more problems myself >> >>I've been wanting to tell many that if the Buddha had a chair to sit on, >>he >>would have. He has already tried the ascetic way and it didn't work. I >>have >>never received any info that was otherwise. I doubt that punishing the >>body >>unnecessarily was what he had in mind. People look at his statue here and >>there >>and unnecessarily think to themselves that sitting in such a way is a >>must. In >>big letters...IT IS NOT. They want to look like him, be like him...but in >>fact, it's more important to be ourselves. With the Zen teachings, I again >>have >>yet to see otherwise. I'm beginning to suspect these days that the >>'seating >>arrangements' have more to do with pride so so-and-so can say to >>all...'look, I >>look just like the Buddha right now!'which I think is very misguided >>thinking. I wouldn't be surprised today if there are many out there who >>have >>caused themselves all sorts of knee and/or hip problems because they so >>much >>wanted to look just like the Buddha himself, because even the supposedly >>easier >>Burmese position can cause problems. For all I know, the old fella is >>probably >>giggling himself to no end in his grave at such dualistic notions in >>today's >>modern civilization >> >>Just my thoughts >> >>Buddha be praised >>Mel >> > > __ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 __ NOD32 5860 (20110209) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah
a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do not, I can see that it >may >not be necessary for "proper zazen", which is good because I don't have >enough >for all of people in my class. The class is for seniors, and will include >zazen, >mindfulness and breathwork, as part of a pain management program. Though it >is >my hope they find it relevant to their own inner awareness. > >I--too, have encountered people in my sanghi's over the years who tend to >think >their pretzel posture somehow elevated their status above the rest of us. >As you >say well, it isn't about looking like buddha, but being the buddha we are, >ourselves. For myself, I'm finding that I am having random moments of that >now, but not as much as before. I have my own frustration s and personal >problems, and have been pretty cynical in recent months. But like all >things-- >this, too , will pass. > >Thanks again, > >Kristy > > > >--- On Wed, 2/9/11, Mel wrote: > > >>From: Mel >>Subject: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) >>To: "zen forum" >>Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 12:17 AM >> >> >> >>Hi Kristy and all >> >>I personally don't know how the traditional full or half lotus, or Burmese >>positions, help in getting back to the original I, or Big Mind. If I had >>been >>born, raised, and educated from within a devout Buddhist family, I'm sure >>I >>would have been introduced into the full lotus position from since a very >>young >>age. However, I discovered Zen in my 20s 20-25 years ago. At best, I can >>do the >>Burmese position, but with my arthritis and lack of flexibility, I often >>use a >>chairin fact a plastic stool I bought for AUS$10. It works just fine >> >>I often end up working much harder(read...right effort) in keeping my >>posture >>straight when I sit on the above chair, which by the way, has no back >>rest. It's >>high enough to keep the thighs almost parallel to the floor, and quite >>comfortable. In the Burmese posture, I have noticed occasionally that I >>sway >>like a coconut tree in the middle of a tropical tyhoon when I'm not >>well-rested >>enough. To keep the posture straight is important, Doing so doesn't cause >>any >>back problems because one is actually using the appropriate muscles and >>right >>effort to keep the back straigtht. Keeping the back straight whilst >>leaning on >>something tend to cause me more problems myself >> >>I've been wanting to tell many that if the Buddha had a chair to sit on, >>he >>would have. He has already tried the ascetic way and it didn't work. I >>have >>never received any info that was otherwise. I doubt that punishing the >>body >>unnecessarily was what he had in mind. People look at his statue here and >>there >>and unnecessarily think to themselves that sitting in such a way is a >>must. In >>big letters...IT IS NOT. They want to look like him, be like him...but in >>fact, it's more important to be ourselves. With the Zen teachings, I again >>have >>yet to see otherwise. I'm beginning to suspect these days that the >>'seating >>arrangements' have more to do with pride so so-and-so can say to >>all...'look, I >>look just like the Buddha right now!'....which I think is very misguided >>thinking. I wouldn't be surprised today if there are many out there who >>have >>caused themselves all sorts of knee and/or hip problems because they so >>much >>wanted to look just like the Buddha himself, because even the supposedly >>easier >>Burmese position can cause problems. For all I know, the old fella is >>probably >>giggling himself to no end in his grave at such dualistic notions in >>today's >>modern civilization >> >>Just my thoughts >> >>Buddha be praised >>Mel >> > > Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 __ NOD32 5860 (20110209) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Mindfulness
The Wikipedia article on Mindfulness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness_(Buddhism) makes a point that, at first blush, seems to run counter to Zen's insistence upon awareness of 'just here, just now.' In discussing the etymology and history of use of the Sanskrit, Pali, and Chinese terms usually translated as 'mindfulness,' it stresses that they include significant reference to memory, recall, recollection, and other mental faculties related to awareness of the past. Any thoughts on how to reconcile this apparent tension? I have been thinking along these lines: When I hear dharma taught, I grasp it, according to the level of my understanding. But, when I leave the dharma hall, I 'should' endeavor not to leave my understanding behind. I 'should' endeavor to bring it forward with me, into each moment, so that it informs my 'in this moment' awareness of right thought, right conduct, right speech., Doing so is right mindfulness of the dharma. Bill, you may find this issue pointless, as you do not consider zen Buddhist, or the EFP a part of zen (If I understand you correctly). But, for those of us who are not quite so iconoclastic , do any of you have any thoughts/comments on my proposed reconciliation? Dana Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fw: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah
- Forwarded Message From: Deborah Mingins To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 11:56:36 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah Thanks for your enthusiasm. The medication that's the new miracle for Fibromyalgia is a controlled substance and can become addicting. Not an option for me. The pain has actually helped me in my meditation for focus, in sitting, and walking, and what I call in my own language living meditation. I take my consciousness of the moment and my breath, and go out into life with it. I try to sustain this. My ability to think has sped up, which I'm sure others have found, and I know what someone is going to say after 2 or 3 words. I have to sit on my hands to let them go thru their process of finishing their sentence. My ability to focus is unbelievable, and that's thanks to pain. So sometimes bad things are really gifts in disguise. The pain I experience used to take my focus off of everything because it was so bad. Now I experience it, am one with it, and at some level am able to be mindful and detach from it. It sounds like it's a duality but it isn't. They are two sides to the one. Am always available by email or cell -just email me privately. Best of luck! Deborah taomtnsa...@yahoo.com From: Kristy McClain To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 9:17:58 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah Hi Deborah, Thank you for this! Please know that I do not refer to these terrific people as senior citizens! I love older people, and have since childhood, with my "gammy" as the best role model a child could have. in fact, that was my first career choice--exercise gerontology. I did not mean to be politically incorrect here, nor to stereotype. To the contrary! I used the word "seniors" as a short-hand reference, but actually-- 55-75 is middle aged these days. I haven't looked at the demographics recently, but at one time, 85+ was the fastest growing age sector. I also agree that taking care of yourself, staying active, and having a meditation, prayer or other contemplative practice keeps us young. In this case, they are all in some form of out-patient therapy, so this is just an adjunct. It sounds like you are doing great, and finally they have a name and a diagnosis for your situation. Question-- didn't they approve a medication not too long ago for Fibromyalia? Any thoughts on that? Would love you to come here to teach this class!! Be well.. Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Deborah Mingins wrote: >From: Deborah Mingins >Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 5:58 PM > > > >Kristy- I had to laugh when you described the ages of senior citizens. I am >going to be 60 in May and feel better and have more energy than I did at 20. I >have Fibromyalgia, and am in constant severe pain, but with diet and >lifestyle, >I have more energy than most. Many years ago I did alot of chakra work and >color >meditation which helped me greatly with this. Anyway, that being said, as a >lively senior citizen who is in pain, and is an avid meditator I can tell you >what has worked for me. I myself am an RN and know the importance of >ergonomics. >I have an office chair, the vinyl kind that rolls, that happens to have a >straight back and leaves my feet flat on the floor. This illness has severely >affected my muscles, and I need the support to keep me upright, otherwise I go >into muscle spasms. I am every bit as straight as when I sit on the floor, and >die in pain. Hope this helps. PS- don't tell these people they are senior >citizens, they may want to stay deluded like me! Deborah > taomtnsa...@yahoo.com > > > From: Kristy McClain >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 3:41:21 PM >Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) > > >Hi Mel, > >*chuckles* > >Thanks for your frank appraisal on this. You bring up many good points. >thanks >for mentioning the stool.. I hadn't thought about that. With the group, I >will >be working with, that won't work for all of them, but its is a real >possibility >for some. For those who can, it offers the bonus of working with their >balance. >Do we know for sure that Buddha didn't sit on a stump under the bodhi tree? >*s* > >Having had my share of injuries, including a broken ankle along with several >surgical complications, I have often used a chair over the years, though I >always used a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do not, I can see that it >may >not be necessary for "proper zazen", which is good because I don't have enough >for all of people in my class. The class is for seniors, and will include >zazen, >mindfulness and breathwork, as part of a
Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah
Thanks for your enthusiasm. The medication that's the new miracle for Fibromyalgia is a controlled substance and can become addicting. Not an option for me. The pain has actually helped me in my meditation for focus, in sitting, and walking, and what I call in my own language living meditation. I take my consciousness of the moment and my breath, and go out into life with it. I try to sustain this. My ability to think has sped up, which I'm sure others have found, and I know what someone is going to say after 2 or 3 words. I have to sit on my hands to let them go thru their process of finishing their sentence. My ability to focus is unbelievable, and that's thanks to pain. So sometimes bad things are really gifts in disguise. The pain I experience used to take my focus off of everything because it was so bad. Now I experience it, am one with it, and at some level am able to be mindful and detach from it. It sounds like it's a duality but it isn't. They are two sides to the one. Am always available by email or cell -just email me privately. Best of luck! Deborah taomtnsa...@yahoo.com From: Kristy McClain To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 9:17:58 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah Hi Deborah, Thank you for this! Please know that I do not refer to these terrific people as senior citizens! I love older people, and have since childhood, with my "gammy" as the best role model a child could have. in fact, that was my first career choice--exercise gerontology. I did not mean to be politically incorrect here, nor to stereotype. To the contrary! I used the word "seniors" as a short-hand reference, but actually-- 55-75 is middle aged these days. I haven't looked at the demographics recently, but at one time, 85+ was the fastest growing age sector. I also agree that taking care of yourself, staying active, and having a meditation, prayer or other contemplative practice keeps us young. In this case, they are all in some form of out-patient therapy, so this is just an adjunct. It sounds like you are doing great, and finally they have a name and a diagnosis for your situation. Question-- didn't they approve a medication not too long ago for Fibromyalia? Any thoughts on that? Would love you to come here to teach this class!! Be well.. Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Deborah Mingins wrote: >From: Deborah Mingins >Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 5:58 PM > > > >Kristy- I had to laugh when you described the ages of senior citizens. I am >going to be 60 in May and feel better and have more energy than I did at 20. I >have Fibromyalgia, and am in constant severe pain, but with diet and >lifestyle, >I have more energy than most. Many years ago I did alot of chakra work and >color >meditation which helped me greatly with this. Anyway, that being said, as a >lively senior citizen who is in pain, and is an avid meditator I can tell you >what has worked for me. I myself am an RN and know the importance of >ergonomics. >I have an office chair, the vinyl kind that rolls, that happens to have a >straight back and leaves my feet flat on the floor. This illness has severely >affected my muscles, and I need the support to keep me upright, otherwise I go >into muscle spasms. I am every bit as straight as when I sit on the floor, and >die in pain. Hope this helps. PS- don't tell these people they are senior >citizens, they may want to stay deluded like me! Deborah > taomtnsa...@yahoo.com > > > From: Kristy McClain >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 3:41:21 PM >Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) > > >Hi Mel, > >*chuckles* > >Thanks for your frank appraisal on this. You bring up many good points. >thanks >for mentioning the stool.. I hadn't thought about that. With the group, I >will >be working with, that won't work for all of them, but its is a real >possibility >for some. For those who can, it offers the bonus of working with their >balance. >Do we know for sure that Buddha didn't sit on a stump under the bodhi tree? >*s* > >Having had my share of injuries, including a broken ankle along with several >surgical complications, I have often used a chair over the years, though I >always used a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do not, I can see that it >may >not be necessary for "proper zazen", which is good because I don't have enough >for all of people in my class. The class is for seniors, and will include >zazen, >mindfulness and breathwork, as part of a pain management program. Though it >is >my hope they find it relevant to their own inner awareness. > >I--too, have encountered people in my sanghi's over the years wh
Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list)
Deborah, Kristy et al... I just turned 65 and I feel pretty good. There are some things I can't do now, or at least can't do as well, as I could do when I was in my twenties; but there are a hell of a lot of things I can do now that I couldn't then. If I ever hear someone my age complaining about their age or condition I always remind them 'Be thankful. Most people our age are dead now.' ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Deborah Mingins wrote: > > Kristy- I had to laugh when you described the ages of senior citizens. I am > going to be 60 in May and feel better and have more energy than I did at 20. > I > have Fibromyalgia, and am in constant severe pain, but with diet and > lifestyle, > I have more energy than most. Many years ago I did alot of chakra work and > color > meditation which helped me greatly with this. Anyway, that being said, as a > lively senior citizen who is in pain, and is an avid meditator I can tell you > what has worked for me. I myself am an RN and know the importance of > ergonomics. > I have an office chair, the vinyl kind that rolls, that happens to have a > straight back and leaves my feet flat on the floor. This illness has severely > affected my muscles, and I need the support to keep me upright, otherwise I > go > into muscle spasms. I am every bit as straight as when I sit on the floor, > and > die in pain. Hope this helps. PS- don't tell these people they are senior > citizens, they may want to stay deluded like me!    Deborah >                taomtnsage1@... > > > > > From: Kristy McClain > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 3:41:21 PM > Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) > >  > Hi Mel, >  > *chuckles* >  > Thanks for your frank appraisal on this. You bring up many good points. > thanks > for mentioning the stool.. I hadn't thought about that. With the group, I > will > be working with, that won't work for all of them, but its is a real > possibility > for some. For those who can, it offers the bonus of working with their > balance. > Do we know for sure that Buddha didn't sit on a stump under the bodhi tree? > *s* >  > Having had my share of injuries, including a broken ankle along > with several > surgical complications, I have  often used a chair over the years, > though I > always used a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do not, I can see that it > may > not be necessary for "proper zazen", which is good because I don't have > enough > for all of people in my class. The class is for seniors, and will include > zazen, > mindfulness and breathwork, as part of a pain management program. Though it > is > my hope they find it relevant to their own inner awareness. >  > I--too, have encountered people in my sanghi's over the years who tend to > think > their pretzel posture somehow elevated their status above the rest of us. As > you > say well, it isn't about looking like buddha, but being the buddha we are, > ourselves. For myself, I'm finding that  I am having random moments of > that > now, but not as much as before. I have my own frustration s and personal > problems, and have been pretty cynical in recent months. But like all > things-- > this, too , will pass. >  > Thanks again, >  > Kristy >  > > > --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Mel wrote: > > > >From: Mel > >Subject: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) > >To: "zen forum" > >Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 12:17 AM > > > > > > > >Hi Kristy and all > > > >I personally don't know how the traditional full or half lotus, or Burmese > >positions, help in getting back to the original I, or Big Mind. If I had > >been > >born, raised, and educated from within a devout Buddhist family, I'm sure I > >would have been introduced into the full lotus position from since a very > >young > >age. However, I discovered Zen in my 20s 20-25 years ago. At best, I can do > >the > >Burmese position, but with my arthritis and lack of flexibility, I often > >use a > >chairin fact a plastic stool I bought for AUS$10. It works just fine > > > >I often end up working much harder(read...right effort) in keeping my > >posture > >straight when I sit on the above chair, which by the way, has no back rest. > >It's > >high enough to keep the thighs almost parallel to the floor, and quite > >comfortable. In the Burmese posture, I have noticed occasionally that I > >sway > >like a coconut tree in the middle of a tropical tyhoon when I'm not > >well-rested > >enough. To keep the posture straight is important, Doing so doesn't cause > >any > >back problems because one is actually using the appropriate muscles and > >right > >effort to keep the back straigtht. Keeping the back straight whilst leaning > >on > >something tend to cause me more problems myself > > > >I've been wanting to tell many that if t
Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list)
Kristy, I just thought of something else I used to do. I usually sit on a zafu (fat, firm cushion) in the Burmese cross-legged position. When I used to sit a lot, like during retreats, I would sometimes turn my cusion edgewise and sat on it with just my knees touching the thin cushioned mat (zabuton). This would be similar to the sieza position I mentioned in my previous post. This was not as good of a sitting position for zazen for me, but did give some welcome relief in the legs especially the knee joints. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain wrote: > > Hi Mel, >  > *chuckles* >  > Thanks for your frank appraisal on this. You bring up many good points. > thanks for mentioning the stool.. I hadn't thought about that. With the > group, I will be working with, that won't work for all of them, but its is > a real possibility for some. For those who can, it offers the bonus of > working with their balance. Do we know for sure that Buddha didn't sit on a > stump under the bodhi tree? *s* >  > Having had my share of injuries, including a broken ankle along > with several surgical complications, I have  often used a chair over the > years, though I always used a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do not, > I can see that it may not be necessary for "proper zazen", which is good > because I don't have enough for all of people in my class. The class is for > seniors, and will include zazen, mindfulness and breathwork, as part of a > pain management program. Though it is my hope they find it relevant to > their own inner awareness. >  > I--too, have encountered people in my sanghi's over the years who tend to > think their pretzel posture somehow elevated their status above the rest of > us. As you say well, it isn't about looking like buddha, but being the > buddha we are, ourselves. For myself, I'm finding that  I am having > random moments of that now, but not as much as before. I have my own > frustration s and personal problems, and have been pretty cynical in recent > months. But like all things-- this, too , will pass. >  > Thanks again, >  > Kristy >  > > > --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Mel wrote: > > > From: Mel > Subject: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) > To: "zen forum" > Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 12:17 AM > > >  > > > > > > > > > Hi Kristy and all >  > I personally don't know how the traditional full or half lotus, or Burmese > positions, help in getting back to the original I, or Big Mind. If I had been > born, raised, and educated from within a devout Buddhist family, I'm sure I > would have been introduced into the full lotus position from since a very > young age. However, I discovered Zen in my 20s 20-25 years ago. At best, I > can do the Burmese position, but with my arthritis and lack of flexibility, > I often use a chairin fact a plastic stool I bought for AUS$10. It works > just fine >  > I often end up working much harder(read...right effort) in keeping my > posture straight when I sit on the above chair, which by the way, has no back > rest. It's high enough to keep the thighs almost parallel to the floor, and > quite comfortable. In the Burmese posture, I have noticed occasionally that > I sway like a coconut tree in the middle of a tropical tyhoon when I'm not > well-rested enough. To keep the posture straight is important, Doing so > doesn't cause any back problems because one is actually using the appropriate > muscles and right effort to keep the back straigtht. Keeping the back > straight whilst leaning on something tend to cause me more problems myself >  > I've been wanting to tell many that if the Buddha had a chair to sit on, he > would have. He has already tried the ascetic way and it didn't work. I have > never received any info that was otherwise. I doubt that punishing the body > unnecessarily was what he had in mind. People look at his statue here and > there and unnecessarily think to themselves that sitting in such a way is a > must. In big letters...IT IS NOT. They want to look like him, be like > him...but in fact, it's more important to be ourselves. With the Zen > teachings, I again have yet to see otherwise. I'm beginning to suspect these > days that the 'seating arrangements' have more to do with pride so so-and-so > can say to all...'look, I look just like the Buddha right now!'which I > think is very misguided thinking. I wouldn't be surprised today if there are > many out there who have caused themselves all sorts of knee and/or > hip problems because they so much wanted to look just like the Buddha > himself, because even the supposedly easier Burmese position can cause > problems. For all I know, the old fella is probably giggling himself to no > end in his grave at such dualistic notions in today's modern civilization >  > Just my thoughts >  > Buddha be praised > Mel  >  >
Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen--Deborah
Hi Deborah, Thank you for this! Please know that I do not refer to these terrific people as senior citizens! I love older people, and have since childhood, with my "gammy" as the best role model a child could have. in fact, that was my first career choice--exercise gerontology. I did not mean to be politically incorrect here, nor to stereotype. To the contrary! I used the word "seniors" as a short-hand reference, but actually-- 55-75 is middle aged these days. I haven't looked at the demographics recently, but at one time, 85+ was the fastest growing age sector. I also agree that taking care of yourself, staying active, and having a meditation, prayer or other contemplative practice keeps us young. In this case, they are all in some form of out-patient therapy, so this is just an adjunct. It sounds like you are doing great, and finally they have a name and a diagnosis for your situation. Question-- didn't they approve a medication not too long ago for Fibromyalia? Any thoughts on that? Would love you to come here to teach this class!! Be well.. Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Deborah Mingins wrote: From: Deborah Mingins Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 5:58 PM Kristy- I had to laugh when you described the ages of senior citizens. I am going to be 60 in May and feel better and have more energy than I did at 20. I have Fibromyalgia, and am in constant severe pain, but with diet and lifestyle, I have more energy than most. Many years ago I did alot of chakra work and color meditation which helped me greatly with this. Anyway, that being said, as a lively senior citizen who is in pain, and is an avid meditator I can tell you what has worked for me. I myself am an RN and know the importance of ergonomics. I have an office chair, the vinyl kind that rolls, that happens to have a straight back and leaves my feet flat on the floor. This illness has severely affected my muscles, and I need the support to keep me upright, otherwise I go into muscle spasms. I am every bit as straight as when I sit on the floor, and die in pain. Hope this helps. PS- don't tell these people they are senior citizens, they may want to stay deluded like me! Deborah taomtnsa...@yahoo.com From: Kristy McClain To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 3:41:21 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) Hi Mel, *chuckles* Thanks for your frank appraisal on this. You bring up many good points. thanks for mentioning the stool.. I hadn't thought about that. With the group, I will be working with, that won't work for all of them, but its is a real possibility for some. For those who can, it offers the bonus of working with their balance. Do we know for sure that Buddha didn't sit on a stump under the bodhi tree? *s* Having had my share of injuries, including a broken ankle along with several surgical complications, I have often used a chair over the years, though I always used a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do not, I can see that it may not be necessary for "proper zazen", which is good because I don't have enough for all of people in my class. The class is for seniors, and will include zazen, mindfulness and breathwork, as part of a pain management program. Though it is my hope they find it relevant to their own inner awareness. I--too, have encountered people in my sanghi's over the years who tend to think their pretzel posture somehow elevated their status above the rest of us. As you say well, it isn't about looking like buddha, but being the buddha we are, ourselves. For myself, I'm finding that I am having random moments of that now, but not as much as before. I have my own frustration s and personal problems, and have been pretty cynical in recent months. But like all things-- this, too , will pass. Thanks again, Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Mel wrote: From: Mel Subject: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) To: "zen forum" Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 12:17 AM Hi Kristy and all I personally don't know how the traditional full or half lotus, or Burmese positions, help in getting back to the original I, or Big Mind. If I had been born, raised, and educated from within a devout Buddhist family, I'm sure I would have been introduced into the full lotus position from since a very young age. However, I discovered Zen in my 20s 20-25 years ago. At best, I can do the Burmese position, but with my arthritis and lack of flexibility, I often use a chairin fact a plastic stool I bought for AUS$10. It works just fine I often end up working much harder(read...right effort) in keeping my posture straight when I sit on the above chair, which by the way, has no back rest. It's high enough to keep the thighs almost parallel to the floor, and quite comfortable. I
Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list)
Kristy- I had to laugh when you described the ages of senior citizens. I am going to be 60 in May and feel better and have more energy than I did at 20. I have Fibromyalgia, and am in constant severe pain, but with diet and lifestyle, I have more energy than most. Many years ago I did alot of chakra work and color meditation which helped me greatly with this. Anyway, that being said, as a lively senior citizen who is in pain, and is an avid meditator I can tell you what has worked for me. I myself am an RN and know the importance of ergonomics. I have an office chair, the vinyl kind that rolls, that happens to have a straight back and leaves my feet flat on the floor. This illness has severely affected my muscles, and I need the support to keep me upright, otherwise I go into muscle spasms. I am every bit as straight as when I sit on the floor, and die in pain. Hope this helps. PS- don't tell these people they are senior citizens, they may want to stay deluded like me! Deborah taomtnsa...@yahoo.com From: Kristy McClain To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 3:41:21 PM Subject: Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) Hi Mel, *chuckles* Thanks for your frank appraisal on this. You bring up many good points. thanks for mentioning the stool.. I hadn't thought about that. With the group, I will be working with, that won't work for all of them, but its is a real possibility for some. For those who can, it offers the bonus of working with their balance. Do we know for sure that Buddha didn't sit on a stump under the bodhi tree? *s* Having had my share of injuries, including a broken ankle along with several surgical complications, I have often used a chair over the years, though I always used a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do not, I can see that it may not be necessary for "proper zazen", which is good because I don't have enough for all of people in my class. The class is for seniors, and will include zazen, mindfulness and breathwork, as part of a pain management program. Though it is my hope they find it relevant to their own inner awareness. I--too, have encountered people in my sanghi's over the years who tend to think their pretzel posture somehow elevated their status above the rest of us. As you say well, it isn't about looking like buddha, but being the buddha we are, ourselves. For myself, I'm finding that I am having random moments of that now, but not as much as before. I have my own frustration s and personal problems, and have been pretty cynical in recent months. But like all things-- this, too , will pass. Thanks again, Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Mel wrote: >From: Mel >Subject: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) >To: "zen forum" >Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 12:17 AM > > > >Hi Kristy and all > >I personally don't know how the traditional full or half lotus, or Burmese >positions, help in getting back to the original I, or Big Mind. If I had been >born, raised, and educated from within a devout Buddhist family, I'm sure I >would have been introduced into the full lotus position from since a very >young >age. However, I discovered Zen in my 20s 20-25 years ago. At best, I can do >the >Burmese position, but with my arthritis and lack of flexibility, I often use a >chairin fact a plastic stool I bought for AUS$10. It works just fine > >I often end up working much harder(read...right effort) in keeping my posture >straight when I sit on the above chair, which by the way, has no back rest. >It's >high enough to keep the thighs almost parallel to the floor, and quite >comfortable. In the Burmese posture, I have noticed occasionally that I sway >like a coconut tree in the middle of a tropical tyhoon when I'm not >well-rested >enough. To keep the posture straight is important, Doing so doesn't cause any >back problems because one is actually using the appropriate muscles and right >effort to keep the back straigtht. Keeping the back straight whilst leaning on >something tend to cause me more problems myself > >I've been wanting to tell many that if the Buddha had a chair to sit on, he >would have. He has already tried the ascetic way and it didn't work. I have >never received any info that was otherwise. I doubt that punishing the body >unnecessarily was what he had in mind. People look at his statue here and >there >and unnecessarily think to themselves that sitting in such a way is a must. In >big letters...IT IS NOT. They want to look like him, be like him...but in >fact, it's more important to be ourselves. With the Zen teachings, I again >have >yet to see otherwise. I'm beginning to suspect these days that the 'seating >arrangements' have more to do with pride so so-and-so can say to all...'look, >I >look just like the Buddha right now!'which I think is very misguided >thinking. I wouldn't be su
Re: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list)
Hi Mel, *chuckles* Thanks for your frank appraisal on this. You bring up many good points. thanks for mentioning the stool.. I hadn't thought about that. With the group, I will be working with, that won't work for all of them, but its is a real possibility for some. For those who can, it offers the bonus of working with their balance. Do we know for sure that Buddha didn't sit on a stump under the bodhi tree? *s* Having had my share of injuries, including a broken ankle along with several surgical complications, I have often used a chair over the years, though I always used a safu on the chair. As Brett and you do not, I can see that it may not be necessary for "proper zazen", which is good because I don't have enough for all of people in my class. The class is for seniors, and will include zazen, mindfulness and breathwork, as part of a pain management program. Though it is my hope they find it relevant to their own inner awareness. I--too, have encountered people in my sanghi's over the years who tend to think their pretzel posture somehow elevated their status above the rest of us. As you say well, it isn't about looking like buddha, but being the buddha we are, ourselves. For myself, I'm finding that I am having random moments of that now, but not as much as before. I have my own frustration s and personal problems, and have been pretty cynical in recent months. But like all things-- this, too , will pass. Thanks again, Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Mel wrote: From: Mel Subject: [Zen] Aging and zazen(to Kristy/list) To: "zen forum" Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 12:17 AM Hi Kristy and all I personally don't know how the traditional full or half lotus, or Burmese positions, help in getting back to the original I, or Big Mind. If I had been born, raised, and educated from within a devout Buddhist family, I'm sure I would have been introduced into the full lotus position from since a very young age. However, I discovered Zen in my 20s 20-25 years ago. At best, I can do the Burmese position, but with my arthritis and lack of flexibility, I often use a chairin fact a plastic stool I bought for AUS$10. It works just fine I often end up working much harder(read...right effort) in keeping my posture straight when I sit on the above chair, which by the way, has no back rest. It's high enough to keep the thighs almost parallel to the floor, and quite comfortable. In the Burmese posture, I have noticed occasionally that I sway like a coconut tree in the middle of a tropical tyhoon when I'm not well-rested enough. To keep the posture straight is important, Doing so doesn't cause any back problems because one is actually using the appropriate muscles and right effort to keep the back straigtht. Keeping the back straight whilst leaning on something tend to cause me more problems myself I've been wanting to tell many that if the Buddha had a chair to sit on, he would have. He has already tried the ascetic way and it didn't work. I have never received any info that was otherwise. I doubt that punishing the body unnecessarily was what he had in mind. People look at his statue here and there and unnecessarily think to themselves that sitting in such a way is a must. In big letters...IT IS NOT. They want to look like him, be like him...but in fact, it's more important to be ourselves. With the Zen teachings, I again have yet to see otherwise. I'm beginning to suspect these days that the 'seating arrangements' have more to do with pride so so-and-so can say to all...'look, I look just like the Buddha right now!'which I think is very misguided thinking. I wouldn't be surprised today if there are many out there who have caused themselves all sorts of knee and/or hip problems because they so much wanted to look just like the Buddha himself, because even the supposedly easier Burmese position can cause problems. For all I know, the old fella is probably giggling himself to no end in his grave at such dualistic notions in today's modern civilization Just my thoughts Buddha be praised Mel
Re: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen
Bill and Chris, Thank you both for sharing your experience and links. This is exactly what I was hoping to learn. One can google the topic, and find lots of info, but I wanted the advice from people who actually use the postures or equipment. Thats the only valid experience. Chris, I have also experienced what you have with your bike. As a runner, I have often been so stiff that there was no way that I could even sit with crossed legs. I had to use a chair, so I have to ponder what my priority was, or is. I'm still thinking on this. When I was in Japan, I kinda got the mountainering-bug. Wondering if I am too old to learn how to climb. I did a little of that years ago as I was growing up in a resort setting that offered those opportunities. I had a great friend who later went on to a career in search--and rescue, as an accomplished mountain-climber. I'm straying from the topic, but your words, (and recent poem), made me think again about zen-in-motion. There's all kinds of "walking meditation". You can do it fishing.. painting.. cooking..climbing. For me, these are all authentic forms of zazen. >>I think of Buddhism as an experimental practice, and the benefits are >>available for us to try without necessarily having a mental model of why the >>benefits are there. << I agree.. Thanks again to you both.. Kristy --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Bill! wrote: From: Bill! Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and zazen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 12:47 AM Kristy, Here's a good link for your that has all the sitting devices I've seen used http://www.zafu.net/whichcush.html. When I talked about the kneeling position (sieza) I was referring to 4th photo (from top to bottom) on this page. The important thing is that you are comfortable, you are not straining to keep your balance and that you are in a good posture for opening up your hips to promote 'belly breathing'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain wrote: > > Bill, Anthony, >  > I wondered if you, or others here, can recommend equipment or furniture > (chairs /benches and such), that has worked well for people who can no > longer, (or never have) been able to use a safu in a traditional sitting > posture.   For those  with less flexability, or have arthritis, back > /joint pain, and the rest. >  > I am wondering if using a safu on the chair is necessary to achieve the > proper zazen state, and how it affects the duration of time and frequency > of the sitting practice. >  > I suppose I'm asking about the quality of the zazen experience for them > There has always so much insistence on posture. Any thoughts? >  > Thanks, >  > Kristy >  >  > > > > > > > > > >  > TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/
Re: [Zen] Lotus Posture
Hi JM, Thanks for posting this! Very interesting. As a westerner practicing zazen, there is often a difference in training, and its always helpful to learn how its done in other countries and traditions. I was very intrigued by the chi-flow guidelines you mention here. Do you have many westerners at your school, and is there a difference in how they are able to "acclimate" to the teachings and practices? Meaning-- is there any more, or less resistance to the process and teaching models? My experience in the USA , has been that many students here don't like being uncomfortable, and are easily discouraged if there is not meaningful or "fast" progress in their practice. (Patience is not a typical American value, it often seems). One other note.. when I was in college in Palo Alto, (CA), I took a course from a buddhist priest who was on-loan from the SF zen center. He taught the fundamental principles of posture for zazen. Being young and fit, I was able to sit in half-lotus with no discomfort the first time I tried it, and could get into full lotus, but chose not to sit that way back then. But the practice was new to me, so I had little knowledge or awareness about the contemplative path. My question? Does posture lead to the awareness, or does the awareness come first in your experience? In my case, I didn't have the maturity to really understand, or embrace the practice. It was not until after my car accident and recovery, that I found a deeper understanding. Thanks, k --- On Wed, 2/9/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 Subject: [Zen] Lotus Posture To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 9, 2011, 9:00 AM Good morning to all, In our school, we have a practitioner named Dr. Jing Lun Huang. One of his research paper told us, measured through scientific instruments, the chi flow enhanced through acupuncture needle is three times the average speed of a normal flow. Half lotus enhances the chi flow by 8 times. Full lotus enhances the chi flow by 24 times. Now why is chi flow important. When the Middle Channel, Ren & Du, is open and flowing, we can enter stillness quicker and deeper. Personally speaking, when I am in half lotus, my spine is bit slanted, because one leg is higher than the other. I don't sit as long and not as comfortable. When I am in full lotus, my chi flows through both legs equally. I feel a more solid base as well as entering into a state of full chi without sensing my physical body faster. Therefore deeper. We recommend three ways to sit. On a chair is for those had surgery or injury on the hip or knees. But the spine must be straight without leaning on the back of the chair. For those may have sore back, weak knees, arthritis, natural illness without surgery or injury. On the floor with a cushion to raise the hip by about 2-3 inches, so that the knees are lower than the hip. This reduces the strain on the lower back and enable the spine to be straight. Then slowly lower the cushion as practice continues. We have plenty of witness informed us that these symptoms can be self-healed after dedicated practice by following our instructions. Everyone else, half lotus is a minimum. May begin with easy lotus, cross legged, but half lotus is minimum.These are our experience and instructions through out all our classes for your reference. JMJM Hear Teacher Order of Chan -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
[Zen] Lotus Posture
Good morning to all, In our school, we have a practitioner named Dr. Jing Lun Huang. One of his research paper told us, measured through scientific instruments, the chi flow enhanced through acupuncture needle is three times the average speed of a normal flow. Half lotus enhances the chi flow by 8 times. Full lotus enhances the chi flow by 24 times. Now why is chi flow important. When the Middle Channel, Ren & Du, is open and flowing, we can enter stillness quicker and deeper. Personally speaking, when I am in half lotus, my spine is bit slanted, because one leg is higher than the other. I don't sit as long and not as comfortable. When I am in full lotus, my chi flows through both legs equally. I feel a more solid base as well as entering into a state of full chi without sensing my physical body faster. Therefore deeper. We recommend three ways to sit. 1. On a chair is for those had surgery or injury on the hip or knees. But the spine must be straight without leaning on the back of the chair. 2. For those may have sore back, weak knees, arthritis, natural illness without surgery or injury. On the floor with a cushion to raise the hip by about 2-3 inches, so that the knees are lower than the hip. This reduces the strain on the lower back and enable the spine to be straight. Then slowly lower the cushion as practice continues. We have plenty of witness informed us that these symptoms can be self-healed after dedicated practice by following our instructions. 3. Everyone else, half lotus is a minimum. May begin with easy lotus, cross legged, but half lotus is minimum. These are our experience and instructions through out all our classes for your reference. JMJM Hear Teacher Order of Chan -- Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org
Re: [Zen] Re: Spock?
Bill, My demon leaves it to myself to fight unenlightened beings, as it is easier. He takes on the most difficult job of handling enlightened ones. Anthony --- On Wed, 9/2/11, Bill! wrote: From: Bill! Subject: [Zen] Re: Spock? To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 9 February, 2011, 3:52 PM Anthony, I now see you have no nose to be tweaked. Does your demon also protect you from unenlightened beings? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu wrote: > > Bill, > > I am safe, as I have hired a demon to protect me from attacks by enlightened > beings. > > To challenge you more, I make the following statement on YOUR behalf: > > Compassion and wisdom are products of dualism. You should eliminate them from > your vocabulary after your satori. If you kill, you must do it with cold > blood. There is no felony to commit if you do anything such as killing, > burning, looting with clear mind and without any dualistic mindset like > compassion and wisdom. > > Anthony > > --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Bill! wrote: > > > From: Bill! > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Spock? > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 5:21 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > Come closer and I'll tweak your nose! > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, > > Anthony Wu wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ED, > > > > >  > > > > > You say, " > > > > > In 'zen' or 'Zen', it is believed that > > wisdom, compassion will emerge from the practice of > > shikantaza itself, and the experiencing of one's true > > nature." > > > > >  > > > > > Bill, > > > > > I need your comment on this. > > > > >  > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 8/2/11, ED > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ED > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Spock? > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 5:50 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, > > "Dana S. Leslie" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > To zazen, I would add the cultivation of loving > > kindness, compassion, and > > > > > wisdom, as embodied in our lives off the cushion. To > > be sure, these flow > > > > > naturally from Buddha mind. But buddha mind evolves > > out of their > > > > > cultivation. It's a virtuous circle! > > > > > In 'zen' or 'Zen', it is believed that > > wisdom, compassion will emerge from the practice of > > shikantaza itself, and the experiencing of one's true > > nature. > > > > > > > > > > > I have never formally been a student at The > > Providence Zen Center, or the > > > > > Kwan Um School of Zen: > > > > > http://www.providencezen.org/ > > > > > http://www.kwanumzen.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > But I have practice zazen with, and learned much > > from teachers, associated > > > > > with this lineage, on and off, over many years. > > > > > > > > > > > Of course, there are MANY, MANY other Zen > > teachers and training centers in > > > > > America. Google will lead you to scores of them. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, and I was interested in knowing if there is any > > zen center that advocates 'zen' without any > > mention Buddha's teachings. > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > Does 'zen' involve just doing zazen > > (shikantaza) practice? > > > > > > > > > > Are there any other recommendations, whether derived > > from Buddhism or > > > > > elsewhere? > > > > > > > > > > Is a teacher or guide required? > > > > > > > > > > Is there any material on 'zen' on the > > Internet? > > > > > > > > > > Are there currently any 'zen' teachers in the > > US that you are aware of? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, ED > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kristy, > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of the time when I use the a phrase like > > 'the zen I practice' it > > > > > is really just to signal everyone that I'm not > > claiming I am the > > > > > official spokesman for traditional Zen Buddhism. I do > > claim however to > > > > > be the official spokesman for 'the zen I > > practice' and do feel very > > > > > confident in talking about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Put simply I beleive 'the zen I practice' > > is Zen Buddhsim without the > > > > > Buddhism. That's why I always distinguish between > > 'the zen I practice' > > > > > (lower case 'z') and the proper name Zen > > Buddhism (with an upper case > > > > > 'Z'). > > > > > > > > > > > > So...if you can think about zen as including > > practices that are not > > > > > specific to Buddhism - like zazen; while not including > > things that are > > > > > specific to Buddhism - like the Eightfold Path and > > enlightenment, then > > > > > that's all it is.
