[Zen] Re: Experience

[Bill!]

Chris,

I completely agree then with your statements about 'attentive witnessing'.

I do definitely over-define and over-draw "lines in the dust" mainly because of 
Edgar and a few others on the Forum.  I try to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR on what I 
write so I don't have to explain a quote from me that is thrown up in my face 
days or weeks later.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
>
> Attentive witnessing does not require thought - it is an attempt to capture
> mere presence, bare awareness, that sort of thing.
> 
> I'm still a bit sceptical that all these words aren't just trying to draw
> lines in the dust :)
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> --Chris
> chris@...
> +1-301-270-6524
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> > Chris,
> >
> > I think perceptions certainly could be seen as 'doing', if you as I do
> > consider 'thinking' as doing something.  So to follow it there is no doing
> > there would be no perceptions.
> >
> > I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'attentive witnessing' but if it
> > involves thinking it would not be monisitc experience.  For example if it
> > involves it involves a subject/relationship/object scenario
> > (dualism/pluralism) such as a witness/observing/something then it would not
> > be a monistic experience and would in my book involve thinking and
> > perceiving.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> > >
> > > Arg, this just shows to me the futility of words.  I was all fine but
> > then
> > > your clarification of precedes etc. leaves me all wanting to argue.
> > >
> > > Oh well.  How about this for another question:
> > >
> > > Is perception something that is related to "doing"?  If no doing is
> > > present, can perception be present?  Does mere attentive witnessing
> > already
> > > cross your line of experience?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > --Chris
> > > chris@
> > > +1-301-270-6524
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Bill!  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > I'm not locked-in to the "preceding" aspect.  As I've said on this
> > thread
> > > > I am not so concerned with the 'how' all this happens.  I just know it
> > > > happens.  Monistic experience and pluralistic perceptions may indeed
> > take
> > > > place at the same time.  In fact that does make some sense because
> > these
> > > > perceptions many times obscure monistic experience.
> > > >
> > > > I do believe monistic experience can occur without the arising of
> > > > perception (samadhi/shikantaza); and perceptions (delusions) can arise
> > that
> > > > completely obscure monistic experience ('normal' human condition); and
> > I do
> > > > believe that even when perceptions arise monistic experience (Buddha
> > > > Nature) is still present even though obscured.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm with you 100% except for "preceding."  To me it seems to be
> > different
> > > > > categories - what you are calling experiencing is not a step in the
> > > > > process.  I can't say what I think it is.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyways, thanks for your patience.
> > > > >
> > > > > And Edgar, there's no self, never has, regardless of whatever level
> > of
> > > > zen
> > > > > training one has undertaken.  It's all just computational substrate,
> > > > right?
> > > > >  You can't cut bits out from the whole.
> > > > >
> > > > > --Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > --Chris
> > > > > chris@
> > > > > +1-301-270-6524
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Bill!  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Chris,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's
> > > > functions
> > > > > > which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me
> > on
> > > > this
> > > > > > outside of this thread.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and
> > fundamental
> > > > > > functions of the brain of a sentient being.  In zen literature it
> > has
> > > > been
> > > > > > called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your
> > Mother
> > > > Was
> > > > > > Born'.  I am saying experience precedes the processing of any
> > > > experience by
> > > > > > the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as
> > > > 'Small
> > > > > > Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'.  When the intellect arises it creates the
> > > > delusion
> > > > > > of dualism/pluralism.  This is the key.  The delusion of a
> > separate,
> > > > unique
> > > > > > 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is
> > > > quickly
> > > > > > followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls
> > > > 'forms'
> > > > > > and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' -
> > phenomena).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising
> > of
> > > > 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience

[Chris Austin-Lane]

Attentive witnessing does not require thought - it is an attempt to capture
mere presence, bare awareness, that sort of thing.

I'm still a bit sceptical that all these words aren't just trying to draw
lines in the dust :)



Thanks,

--Chris
ch...@austin-lane.net
+1-301-270-6524


On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Bill!  wrote:

> Chris,
>
> I think perceptions certainly could be seen as 'doing', if you as I do
> consider 'thinking' as doing something.  So to follow it there is no doing
> there would be no perceptions.
>
> I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'attentive witnessing' but if it
> involves thinking it would not be monisitc experience.  For example if it
> involves it involves a subject/relationship/object scenario
> (dualism/pluralism) such as a witness/observing/something then it would not
> be a monistic experience and would in my book involve thinking and
> perceiving.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> >
> > Arg, this just shows to me the futility of words.  I was all fine but
> then
> > your clarification of precedes etc. leaves me all wanting to argue.
> >
> > Oh well.  How about this for another question:
> >
> > Is perception something that is related to "doing"?  If no doing is
> > present, can perception be present?  Does mere attentive witnessing
> already
> > cross your line of experience?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --Chris
> > chris@...
> > +1-301-270-6524
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Bill!  wrote:
> >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > I'm not locked-in to the "preceding" aspect.  As I've said on this
> thread
> > > I am not so concerned with the 'how' all this happens.  I just know it
> > > happens.  Monistic experience and pluralistic perceptions may indeed
> take
> > > place at the same time.  In fact that does make some sense because
> these
> > > perceptions many times obscure monistic experience.
> > >
> > > I do believe monistic experience can occur without the arising of
> > > perception (samadhi/shikantaza); and perceptions (delusions) can arise
> that
> > > completely obscure monistic experience ('normal' human condition); and
> I do
> > > believe that even when perceptions arise monistic experience (Buddha
> > > Nature) is still present even though obscured.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm with you 100% except for "preceding."  To me it seems to be
> different
> > > > categories - what you are calling experiencing is not a step in the
> > > > process.  I can't say what I think it is.
> > > >
> > > > Anyways, thanks for your patience.
> > > >
> > > > And Edgar, there's no self, never has, regardless of whatever level
> of
> > > zen
> > > > training one has undertaken.  It's all just computational substrate,
> > > right?
> > > >  You can't cut bits out from the whole.
> > > >
> > > > --Chris
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > --Chris
> > > > chris@
> > > > +1-301-270-6524
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Bill!  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Chris,
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's
> > > functions
> > > > > which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me
> on
> > > this
> > > > > outside of this thread.
> > > > >
> > > > > The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and
> fundamental
> > > > > functions of the brain of a sentient being.  In zen literature it
> has
> > > been
> > > > > called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your
> Mother
> > > Was
> > > > > Born'.  I am saying experience precedes the processing of any
> > > experience by
> > > > > the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as
> > > 'Small
> > > > > Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'.  When the intellect arises it creates the
> > > delusion
> > > > > of dualism/pluralism.  This is the key.  The delusion of a
> separate,
> > > unique
> > > > > 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is
> > > quickly
> > > > > followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls
> > > 'forms'
> > > > > and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' -
> phenomena).
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising
> of
> > > > > duality and perception, but just preceding it.  Experience is
> > > > > "not-beginning and not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the
> > > moment' or
> > > > > 'only now'.  I do associate experience with what you call "the
> wonder
> > > of
> > > > > presence" which I think I would just call 'awareness' which is
> > > monisitic -
> > > > > as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
> > > > >
> > > > > Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
> > > > >
> > > > > Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as
> > > 'awakening'
> > > > > or 'enlightenment'.  What you 'awaken'

[Zen] Re: Experience

[Bill!]

Chris,

I think perceptions certainly could be seen as 'doing', if you as I do consider 
'thinking' as doing something.  So to follow it there is no doing there would 
be no perceptions.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'attentive witnessing' but if it involves 
thinking it would not be monisitc experience.  For example if it involves it 
involves a subject/relationship/object scenario (dualism/pluralism) such as a 
witness/observing/something then it would not be a monistic experience and 
would in my book involve thinking and perceiving.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
>
> Arg, this just shows to me the futility of words.  I was all fine but then
> your clarification of precedes etc. leaves me all wanting to argue.
> 
> Oh well.  How about this for another question:
> 
> Is perception something that is related to "doing"?  If no doing is
> present, can perception be present?  Does mere attentive witnessing already
> cross your line of experience?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> --Chris
> chris@...
> +1-301-270-6524
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> > Chris,
> >
> > I'm not locked-in to the "preceding" aspect.  As I've said on this thread
> > I am not so concerned with the 'how' all this happens.  I just know it
> > happens.  Monistic experience and pluralistic perceptions may indeed take
> > place at the same time.  In fact that does make some sense because these
> > perceptions many times obscure monistic experience.
> >
> > I do believe monistic experience can occur without the arising of
> > perception (samadhi/shikantaza); and perceptions (delusions) can arise that
> > completely obscure monistic experience ('normal' human condition); and I do
> > believe that even when perceptions arise monistic experience (Buddha
> > Nature) is still present even though obscured.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm with you 100% except for "preceding."  To me it seems to be different
> > > categories - what you are calling experiencing is not a step in the
> > > process.  I can't say what I think it is.
> > >
> > > Anyways, thanks for your patience.
> > >
> > > And Edgar, there's no self, never has, regardless of whatever level of
> > zen
> > > training one has undertaken.  It's all just computational substrate,
> > right?
> > >  You can't cut bits out from the whole.
> > >
> > > --Chris
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > --Chris
> > > chris@
> > > +1-301-270-6524
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Bill!  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's
> > functions
> > > > which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me on
> > this
> > > > outside of this thread.
> > > >
> > > > The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and fundamental
> > > > functions of the brain of a sentient being.  In zen literature it has
> > been
> > > > called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your Mother
> > Was
> > > > Born'.  I am saying experience precedes the processing of any
> > experience by
> > > > the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as
> > 'Small
> > > > Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'.  When the intellect arises it creates the
> > delusion
> > > > of dualism/pluralism.  This is the key.  The delusion of a separate,
> > unique
> > > > 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is
> > quickly
> > > > followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls
> > 'forms'
> > > > and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' - phenomena).
> > > >
> > > > I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising of
> > > > duality and perception, but just preceding it.  Experience is
> > > > "not-beginning and not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the
> > moment' or
> > > > 'only now'.  I do associate experience with what you call "the wonder
> > of
> > > > presence" which I think I would just call 'awareness' which is
> > monisitic -
> > > > as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
> > > >
> > > > Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
> > > >
> > > > Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
> > > >
> > > > Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as
> > 'awakening'
> > > > or 'enlightenment'.  What you 'awaken' to is the realization that
> > > > perceptions are delusions and only experience is real.
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill,
> > > > >
> > > > > One more question on this:
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the
> > > > brains
> > > > > normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way
> > that
> > > > > the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
> > > > > transforming sensory stimulation into menta

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience

[Chris Austin-Lane]

Arg, this just shows to me the futility of words.  I was all fine but then
your clarification of precedes etc. leaves me all wanting to argue.

Oh well.  How about this for another question:

Is perception something that is related to "doing"?  If no doing is
present, can perception be present?  Does mere attentive witnessing already
cross your line of experience?

Thanks,

--Chris
ch...@austin-lane.net
+1-301-270-6524


On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Bill!  wrote:

> Chris,
>
> I'm not locked-in to the "preceding" aspect.  As I've said on this thread
> I am not so concerned with the 'how' all this happens.  I just know it
> happens.  Monistic experience and pluralistic perceptions may indeed take
> place at the same time.  In fact that does make some sense because these
> perceptions many times obscure monistic experience.
>
> I do believe monistic experience can occur without the arising of
> perception (samadhi/shikantaza); and perceptions (delusions) can arise that
> completely obscure monistic experience ('normal' human condition); and I do
> believe that even when perceptions arise monistic experience (Buddha
> Nature) is still present even though obscured.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> >
> > I'm with you 100% except for "preceding."  To me it seems to be different
> > categories - what you are calling experiencing is not a step in the
> > process.  I can't say what I think it is.
> >
> > Anyways, thanks for your patience.
> >
> > And Edgar, there's no self, never has, regardless of whatever level of
> zen
> > training one has undertaken.  It's all just computational substrate,
> right?
> >  You can't cut bits out from the whole.
> >
> > --Chris
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --Chris
> > chris@...
> > +1-301-270-6524
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Bill!  wrote:
> >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's
> functions
> > > which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me on
> this
> > > outside of this thread.
> > >
> > > The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and fundamental
> > > functions of the brain of a sentient being.  In zen literature it has
> been
> > > called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your Mother
> Was
> > > Born'.  I am saying experience precedes the processing of any
> experience by
> > > the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as
> 'Small
> > > Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'.  When the intellect arises it creates the
> delusion
> > > of dualism/pluralism.  This is the key.  The delusion of a separate,
> unique
> > > 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is
> quickly
> > > followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls
> 'forms'
> > > and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' - phenomena).
> > >
> > > I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising of
> > > duality and perception, but just preceding it.  Experience is
> > > "not-beginning and not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the
> moment' or
> > > 'only now'.  I do associate experience with what you call "the wonder
> of
> > > presence" which I think I would just call 'awareness' which is
> monisitic -
> > > as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
> > >
> > > Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
> > >
> > > Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
> > >
> > > Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as
> 'awakening'
> > > or 'enlightenment'.  What you 'awaken' to is the realization that
> > > perceptions are delusions and only experience is real.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > >
> > > > One more question on this:
> > > >
> > > > Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the
> > > brains
> > > > normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way
> that
> > > > the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
> > > > transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation?  Something
> of
> > > > which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending?
>  Something to
> > > > akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence?  This
> very
> > > > moment.  That sort of thing.  Right here, right now.
> > > >
> > > > Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the subjective
> side
> > > > of the brains functioning - something which is not from an eternal
> > > > perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the
> body/mind
> > > > functioning but a description of the way the human notices the
> absolute
> > > > along side the perception?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > >
> > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or
> are
> > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > 

[Zen] Re: Experience

[Bill!]

Chris,

I'm not locked-in to the "preceding" aspect.  As I've said on this thread I am 
not so concerned with the 'how' all this happens.  I just know it happens.  
Monistic experience and pluralistic perceptions may indeed take place at the 
same time.  In fact that does make some sense because these perceptions many 
times obscure monistic experience.

I do believe monistic experience can occur without the arising of perception 
(samadhi/shikantaza); and perceptions (delusions) can arise that completely 
obscure monistic experience ('normal' human condition); and I do believe that 
even when perceptions arise monistic experience (Buddha Nature) is still 
present even though obscured.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
>
> I'm with you 100% except for "preceding."  To me it seems to be different
> categories - what you are calling experiencing is not a step in the
> process.  I can't say what I think it is.
> 
> Anyways, thanks for your patience.
> 
> And Edgar, there's no self, never has, regardless of whatever level of zen
> training one has undertaken.  It's all just computational substrate, right?
>  You can't cut bits out from the whole.
> 
> --Chris
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> --Chris
> chris@...
> +1-301-270-6524
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> > Chris,
> >
> > Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's functions
> > which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me on this
> > outside of this thread.
> >
> > The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and fundamental
> > functions of the brain of a sentient being.  In zen literature it has been
> > called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your Mother Was
> > Born'.  I am saying experience precedes the processing of any experience by
> > the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as 'Small
> > Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'.  When the intellect arises it creates the delusion
> > of dualism/pluralism.  This is the key.  The delusion of a separate, unique
> > 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is quickly
> > followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls 'forms'
> > and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' - phenomena).
> >
> > I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising of
> > duality and perception, but just preceding it.  Experience is
> > "not-beginning and not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the moment' or
> > 'only now'.  I do associate experience with what you call "the wonder of
> > presence" which I think I would just call 'awareness' which is monisitic -
> > as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
> >
> > Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
> >
> > Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
> >
> > Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as 'awakening'
> > or 'enlightenment'.  What you 'awaken' to is the realization that
> > perceptions are delusions and only experience is real.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > One more question on this:
> > >
> > > Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the
> > brains
> > > normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way that
> > > the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
> > > transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation?  Something of
> > > which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending?  Something to
> > > akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence?  This very
> > > moment.  That sort of thing.  Right here, right now.
> > >
> > > Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the subjective side
> > > of the brains functioning - something which is not from an eternal
> > > perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the body/mind
> > > functioning but a description of the way the human notices the absolute
> > > along side the perception?
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
> > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience

[Chris Austin-Lane]

I'm with you 100% except for "preceding."  To me it seems to be different
categories - what you are calling experiencing is not a step in the
process.  I can't say what I think it is.

Anyways, thanks for your patience.

And Edgar, there's no self, never has, regardless of whatever level of zen
training one has undertaken.  It's all just computational substrate, right?
 You can't cut bits out from the whole.

--Chris

Thanks,

--Chris
ch...@austin-lane.net
+1-301-270-6524


On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Bill!  wrote:

> Chris,
>
> Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's functions
> which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me on this
> outside of this thread.
>
> The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and fundamental
> functions of the brain of a sentient being.  In zen literature it has been
> called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your Mother Was
> Born'.  I am saying experience precedes the processing of any experience by
> the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as 'Small
> Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'.  When the intellect arises it creates the delusion
> of dualism/pluralism.  This is the key.  The delusion of a separate, unique
> 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is quickly
> followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls 'forms'
> and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' - phenomena).
>
> I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising of
> duality and perception, but just preceding it.  Experience is
> "not-beginning and not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the moment' or
> 'only now'.  I do associate experience with what you call "the wonder of
> presence" which I think I would just call 'awareness' which is monisitic -
> as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
>
> Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
>
> Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
>
> Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as 'awakening'
> or 'enlightenment'.  What you 'awaken' to is the realization that
> perceptions are delusions and only experience is real.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > One more question on this:
> >
> > Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the
> brains
> > normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way that
> > the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
> > transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation?  Something of
> > which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending?  Something to
> > akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence?  This very
> > moment.  That sort of thing.  Right here, right now.
> >
> > Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the subjective side
> > of the brains functioning - something which is not from an eternal
> > perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the body/mind
> > functioning but a description of the way the human notices the absolute
> > along side the perception?
> >
>
>
>
> 
>
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Zen] Re: Experience

[Bill!]

Edgar,

There is not ONLY monistic experience.  Monistic experience is Buddha Nature.

I am human.  I also have Human Nature.  Human Nature is characterized by having 
an intellect which generates dualism/pluralism - delusions.

You shouldn't be asking ME where I think YOU come from.  YOU should be asking 
YOUR SELF where YOU think I come from - that is if you want to practice zen.

...Bill!  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> If there is only monistic experience, then where do all the dualistic 
> delusions that arise IN YOUR MIND come from?
> 
> Where do I come from since you think I'm only a "delusion" in your mind? And 
> where does the delusion of "your mind" come from if there is only monistic 
> experience?
> 
> Something just isn't kosher here
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 10, 2013, at 7:15 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > When I wrote about the brain and these concepts below I said this was not 
> > my choice of analogy. It is inconsistent but was not my choice of 
> > analogies. I would never equate 'brain' and 'mind' or 'brain' and 
> > 'sentient'.
> > 
> > For all I know there are sentient beings that don't have eyes, ears, noses, 
> > tongues or skin. And there may be intellectual beings that don't have 
> > brains.
> > 
> > BUT...your question below is puzzling. You're jumbling up 'brain' and 
> > 'sentient being' and 'delusions' (self).
> > 
> > Please rephrase your question and I'll try to answer it.
> > 
> > ...Bill! 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > > 
> > > How can there be "the brain of a sentient being" if there is no self?
> > > 
> > > You keep trapping yourself in inconsistencies because your basic belief 
> > > is inconsistent...
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Jul 9, 2013, at 11:01 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Chris,
> > > > 
> > > > Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's 
> > > > functions which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't 
> > > > quote me on this outside of this thread.
> > > > 
> > > > The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and fundamental 
> > > > functions of the brain of a sentient being. In zen literature it has 
> > > > been called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your 
> > > > Mother Was Born'. I am saying experience precedes the processing of any 
> > > > experience by the intellect which in zen literature has been called 
> > > > such names as 'Small Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'. When the intellect arises 
> > > > it creates the delusion of dualism/pluralism. This is the key. The 
> > > > delusion of a separate, unique 'self' is probably one of the first 
> > > > delusions that arises, but is quickly followed by all the other 
> > > > subject/object delusions that Edgar calls 'forms' and some Buddhist 
> > > > sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' - phenomena).
> > > > 
> > > > I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising of 
> > > > duality and perception, but just preceding it. Experience is 
> > > > "not-beginning and not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the 
> > > > moment' or 'only now'. I do associate experience with what you call 
> > > > "the wonder of presence" which I think I would just call 'awareness' 
> > > > which is monisitic - as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is 
> > > > dualistic.
> > > > 
> > > > Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
> > > > 
> > > > Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
> > > > 
> > > > Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as 
> > > > 'awakening' or 'enlightenment'. What you 'awaken' to is the realization 
> > > > that perceptions are delusions and only experience is real.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill,
> > > > > 
> > > > > One more question on this:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the 
> > > > > brains
> > > > > normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way 
> > > > > that
> > > > > the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
> > > > > transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation? Something of
> > > > > which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending? Something 
> > > > > to
> > > > > akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence? This 
> > > > > very
> > > > > moment. That sort of thing. Right here, right now.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the subjective 
> > > > > side
> > > > > of the brains functioning - something which is not from an eternal
> > > > > perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the 
> > > > > body/mind
> > > > > functioning but a description of the way the human notices the 
> > > > > absolute
> > > > > along side the perception?
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience

[Edgar Owen]

Bill,

If there is only monistic experience, then where do all the dualistic delusions 
that arise IN YOUR MIND come from?

Where do I come from since you think I'm only a "delusion" in your mind? And 
where does the delusion of "your mind" come from if there is only monistic 
experience?

Something just isn't kosher here

Edgar



On Jul 10, 2013, at 7:15 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> When I wrote about the brain and these concepts below I said this was not my 
> choice of analogy. It is inconsistent but was not my choice of analogies. I 
> would never equate 'brain' and 'mind' or 'brain' and 'sentient'.
> 
> For all I know there are sentient beings that don't have eyes, ears, noses, 
> tongues or skin. And there may be intellectual beings that don't have brains.
> 
> BUT...your question below is puzzling. You're jumbling up 'brain' and 
> 'sentient being' and 'delusions' (self).
> 
> Please rephrase your question and I'll try to answer it.
> 
> ...Bill! 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> > 
> > How can there be "the brain of a sentient being" if there is no self?
> > 
> > You keep trapping yourself in inconsistencies because your basic belief is 
> > inconsistent...
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Jul 9, 2013, at 11:01 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > 
> > > Chris,
> > > 
> > > Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's functions 
> > > which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me on 
> > > this outside of this thread.
> > > 
> > > The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and fundamental 
> > > functions of the brain of a sentient being. In zen literature it has been 
> > > called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your Mother 
> > > Was Born'. I am saying experience precedes the processing of any 
> > > experience by the intellect which in zen literature has been called such 
> > > names as 'Small Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'. When the intellect arises it 
> > > creates the delusion of dualism/pluralism. This is the key. The delusion 
> > > of a separate, unique 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that 
> > > arises, but is quickly followed by all the other subject/object delusions 
> > > that Edgar calls 'forms' and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' 
> > > (small 'd' - phenomena).
> > > 
> > > I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising of 
> > > duality and perception, but just preceding it. Experience is 
> > > "not-beginning and not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the moment' 
> > > or 'only now'. I do associate experience with what you call "the wonder 
> > > of presence" which I think I would just call 'awareness' which is 
> > > monisitic - as contrasted with 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
> > > 
> > > Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
> > > 
> > > Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
> > > 
> > > Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as 
> > > 'awakening' or 'enlightenment'. What you 'awaken' to is the realization 
> > > that perceptions are delusions and only experience is real.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > > 
> > > > One more question on this:
> > > > 
> > > > Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the 
> > > > brains
> > > > normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way that
> > > > the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
> > > > transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation? Something of
> > > > which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending? Something to
> > > > akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence? This very
> > > > moment. That sort of thing. Right here, right now.
> > > > 
> > > > Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the subjective 
> > > > side
> > > > of the brains functioning - something which is not from an eternal
> > > > perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the 
> > > > body/mind
> > > > functioning but a description of the way the human notices the absolute
> > > > along side the perception?
> > > >
> > > 
> > >
> >
> 
> 

[Zen] Re: Experience

[Bill!]

Edgar,

When I wrote about the brain and these concepts below I said this was not my 
choice of analogy.  It is inconsistent but was not my choice of analogies.  I 
would never equate 'brain' and 'mind' or 'brain' and 'sentient'.

For all I know there are sentient beings that don't have eyes, ears, noses, 
tongues or skin.  And there may be intellectual beings that don't have brains.

BUT...your question below is puzzling.  You're jumbling up 'brain' and 
'sentient being' and 'delusions' (self).

Please rephrase your question and I'll try to answer it.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> How can there be "the brain of a sentient being" if there is no self?
> 
> You keep trapping yourself in inconsistencies because your basic belief is 
> inconsistent...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 9, 2013, at 11:01 PM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Chris,
> > 
> > Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's functions 
> > which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me on this 
> > outside of this thread.
> > 
> > The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and fundamental 
> > functions of the brain of a sentient being. In zen literature it has been 
> > called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your Mother Was 
> > Born'. I am saying experience precedes the processing of any experience by 
> > the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as 'Small 
> > Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'. When the intellect arises it creates the delusion 
> > of dualism/pluralism. This is the key.  The delusion of a separate, unique 
> > 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is quickly 
> > followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls 'forms' 
> > and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' - phenomena).
> > 
> > I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising of 
> > duality and perception, but just preceding it. Experience is "not-beginning 
> > and not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the moment' or 'only now'. I 
> > do associate experience with what you call "the wonder of presence" which I 
> > think I would just call 'awareness' which is monisitic - as contrasted with 
> > 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
> > 
> > Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
> > 
> > Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
> > 
> > Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as 'awakening' 
> > or 'enlightenment'. What you 'awaken' to is the realization that 
> > perceptions are delusions and only experience is real.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > > 
> > > One more question on this:
> > > 
> > > Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the brains
> > > normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way that
> > > the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
> > > transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation? Something of
> > > which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending? Something to
> > > akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence? This very
> > > moment. That sort of thing. Right here, right now.
> > > 
> > > Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the subjective side
> > > of the brains functioning - something which is not from an eternal
> > > perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the body/mind
> > > functioning but a description of the way the human notices the absolute
> > > along side the perception?
> > >
> > 
> >
>





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience

[Edgar Owen]

Bill,

How can there be "the brain of a sentient being" if there is no self?

You keep trapping yourself in inconsistencies because your basic belief is 
inconsistent...

Edgar



On Jul 9, 2013, at 11:01 PM, Bill! wrote:

> Chris,
> 
> Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's functions 
> which would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me on this 
> outside of this thread.
> 
> The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and fundamental 
> functions of the brain of a sentient being. In zen literature it has been 
> called such names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your Mother Was 
> Born'. I am saying experience precedes the processing of any experience by 
> the intellect which in zen literature has been called such names as 'Small 
> Mind' and 'Monkey Mind'. When the intellect arises it creates the delusion of 
> dualism/pluralism. This is the key.  The delusion of a separate, unique 
> 'self' is probably one of the first delusions that arises, but is quickly 
> followed by all the other subject/object delusions that Edgar calls 'forms' 
> and some Buddhist sects refer to as 'dharma' (small 'd' - phenomena).
> 
> I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising of duality 
> and perception, but just preceding it. Experience is "not-beginning and 
> not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the moment' or 'only now'. I do 
> associate experience with what you call "the wonder of presence" which I 
> think I would just call 'awareness' which is monisitic - as contrasted with 
> 'consciousness' which is dualistic.
> 
> Perceiving only is the normal human condition.
> 
> Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.
> 
> Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as 'awakening' or 
> 'enlightenment'. What you 'awaken' to is the realization that perceptions are 
> delusions and only experience is real.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> > 
> > One more question on this:
> > 
> > Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the brains
> > normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way that
> > the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
> > transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation? Something of
> > which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending? Something to
> > akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence? This very
> > moment. That sort of thing. Right here, right now.
> > 
> > Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the subjective side
> > of the brains functioning - something which is not from an eternal
> > perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the body/mind
> > functioning but a description of the way the human notices the absolute
> > along side the perception?
> >
> 
> 

[Zen] Re: Experience

[Bill!]

Chris,

Again, using your language below which talks about the brain's functions which 
would not be my choice of analogy...so please don't quote me on this outside of 
this thread.

The way I see it experience is one of the most basic and fundamental functions 
of the brain of a sentient being.  In zen literature it has been called such 
names as 'Original Mind' and 'Your Face Before Your Mother Was Born'.  I am 
saying experience precedes the processing of any experience by the intellect 
which in zen literature has been called such names as 'Small Mind' and 'Monkey 
Mind'.  When the intellect arises it creates the delusion of dualism/pluralism. 
 This is the key.  The delusion of a separate, unique 'self' is probably one of 
the first delusions that arises, but is quickly followed by all the other 
subject/object delusions that Edgar calls 'forms' and some Buddhist sects refer 
to as 'dharma' (small 'd' - phenomena).

I don't see experience as "slightly at an angle to..." the arising of duality 
and perception, but just preceding it.  Experience is "not-beginning and 
not-ending", sometimes referred to as 'in the moment' or 'only now'.  I do 
associate experience with what you call "the wonder of presence" which I think 
I would just call 'awareness' which is monisitic - as contrasted with 
'consciousness' which is dualistic.

Perceiving only is the normal human condition.

Experiencing only is Buddha Nature.

Perceiving and experiencing is what I believe many refer to as 'awakening' or 
'enlightenment'.  What you 'awaken' to is the realization that perceptions are 
delusions and only experience is real.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> One more question on this:
> 
> Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the brains
> normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way that
> the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
> transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation?  Something of
> which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending?  Something to
> akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence?  This very
> moment.  That sort of thing.  Right here, right now.
> 
> Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the subjective side
> of the brains functioning - something which is not from an eternal
> perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the body/mind
> functioning but a description of the way the human notices the absolute
> along side the perception?
>





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience

[Chris Austin-Lane]

Bill,

One more question on this:

Do you envision what you are calling experience to be a step in the brains
normal functioning of responding to the environment in whatever way that
the brain does that, or something slightly at an angle to the work of
transforming sensory stimulation into mental stimulation?  Something of
which it could be said to be not-beginning and not-ending?  Something to
akin to what some people talk about as the wonder of presence?  This very
moment.  That sort of thing.  Right here, right now.

Or perhaps some third thing I'm not seeing, a step in the subjective side
of the brains functioning - something which is not from an eternal
perspective but is also not intended to be a description of the body/mind
functioning but a description of the way the human notices the absolute
along side the perception?

[Zen] Re: Experience

[Bill!]

Pudgala,

I do partially agree with you definition of 'perception' below when you 
describe it as "mental pictures formed in the brain...".  I usually just call 
these 'concepts' or 'intellectualizations', or even just 'thoughts'. 

The problem we are having communicating is that you are using the word 
'experience' differently than I.  You are using it for both sensual experience 
and for a combined experience + perception.

I use the word 'experience' to describe ONLY sensual experience.  Everything 
else I refer to as 'perceptions'.  Perceptions are indeed as you say below 
"mental pictures formed in the brain...".  Some perceptions as you go on to say 
are from "sensory organ input" (although those are your words, not mine; so 
don't hurl them back at me later on).  All the rest of that sentence,"(...or 
imagined) and sincere words (words whose meanings are believed to be valid to 
the perceiver)" are just intellectualizations (thoughts/delusions) which all 
come together to form perceptions and not what I consider 'experience'.

Experience (as I define it) does not follow perceptions.  Perceptions follow 
experience, and sometimes perceptions are created independently of any 
experience - like fantasies.

I will attempt to answer the one question you asked below:

>You're walking down the street with another guy and you both perceive an 
>attractive couple walking towards you and you sincerely say "She is
really attractive." The other guy says, "He certainly is!" Now what was your 
experience?

My intellectualizations (delusions) were:
- there is a street separate and distinct from me
- 'I' am moving down the street
- there is another person separate and distinct from me
- there are two other people (a couple)separate and distinct from me
- one (or both)of them has the quality of being 'attractive'
- 'I' find one attractive
- my 'friend' finds the other attractive
- etc...

My experience, however, was Just THIS!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "pudgala2"  wrote:
>
> Bill!
> 
> Perceptions are mental pictures formed in the brain from both sensory
> organ input (real or imagined) and sincere words (words whose meanings
> are believed to be valid to the perceiver). Experience always follows
> perception which always follows prior experience.
> 
> Experience is dependent upon perceptions which are dependent upon prior
> experience which in turn lead to perceptual expectations which are
> always dependent on past experience which formed the
> perceptions—Samsara!
> 
> Once this interdependent origination is realized the cycle can be brken
> and nvelty introduced and the perceptual world pens wider.
> 
> You're walking down the street with another guy and you both perceive an
> attractive couple walking towards you and you sincerely say "She is
> really attractive." The other guy says, "He certainly is!" Now what was
> your experience?
> 
> A mind that is stretched by a new experience can never go back to its
> old dimensions. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes.
> 
> The ingredients in my potluck postings work for me. I just cook them up
> in zazen and set them on the table for others to see without any
> expectations.
> 
> 
> pudgala2
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > Pudgala2,
> >
> > With the utmost respect for the learned men you've quoted below I must
> point out what they mean by 'experience' is what I call 'perception' -
> the intellectualization of experience by the intellect.  If you
> substitute 'perception' for 'experience' in all the quotes I would
> agree.
> >
> > When I use the word 'experience' it refers solely to immediate, raw,
> sensory experience - what we call touch, sight, sound, smell and taste. 
> Experience is actually just one thing, not five, and that one thing is
> also called Buddha Nature.
> >
> > This is the way I use those terms.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "pudgala2" pudgala2@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > We learn from experience that men never learn anything from
> experience.
> > > ~ G. B. Shaw
> > >
> > > Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with [how
> you
> > > process] what happens to you. ~ Aldous Huxley
> > >
> > > Ideology is the unspoken assumptions [sentient beings] that organize
> > > your experience of something. ~  Michael Pollan
> > >
> > > Remember, your brain doesn't care what idea you believe and then
> > > perceive. Your healthy brain will instantly convert into your
> subjective
> > > life experience of the moment any idea that you believe. ~ Maxie C.
> > > Maultsby, Jr., M.D.
> > >
> > > Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes. ~ Oscar
> Wilde
> > >
> > > The Royal Society of London took as its motto Nullius in Verba
> [Nothing
> > > in Words], best translated as "Take nobody's word for it, see for
> > > yourself." Granted its charter in 1662 by Charles II, the Royal
> Society
> > > is the oldest and most venerated of English scientific societies.
> > >
> >

[Zen] Re: Experience

[pudgala2]

Bill!

Perceptions are mental pictures formed in the brain from both sensory
organ input (real or imagined) and sincere words (words whose meanings
are believed to be valid to the perceiver). Experience always follows
perception which always follows prior experience.

Experience is dependent upon perceptions which are dependent upon prior
experience which in turn lead to perceptual expectations which are
always dependent on past experience which formed the
perceptions—Samsara!

Once this interdependent origination is realized the cycle can be brken
and nvelty introduced and the perceptual world pens wider.

You're walking down the street with another guy and you both perceive an
attractive couple walking towards you and you sincerely say "She is
really attractive." The other guy says, "He certainly is!" Now what was
your experience?

A mind that is stretched by a new experience can never go back to its
old dimensions. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes.

The ingredients in my potluck postings work for me. I just cook them up
in zazen and set them on the table for others to see without any
expectations.


pudgala2



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Pudgala2,
>
> With the utmost respect for the learned men you've quoted below I must
point out what they mean by 'experience' is what I call 'perception' -
the intellectualization of experience by the intellect.  If you
substitute 'perception' for 'experience' in all the quotes I would
agree.
>
> When I use the word 'experience' it refers solely to immediate, raw,
sensory experience - what we call touch, sight, sound, smell and taste. 
Experience is actually just one thing, not five, and that one thing is
also called Buddha Nature.
>
> This is the way I use those terms.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "pudgala2" pudgala2@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > We learn from experience that men never learn anything from
experience.
> > ~ G. B. Shaw
> >
> > Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with [how
you
> > process] what happens to you. ~ Aldous Huxley
> >
> > Ideology is the unspoken assumptions [sentient beings] that organize
> > your experience of something. ~  Michael Pollan
> >
> > Remember, your brain doesn't care what idea you believe and then
> > perceive. Your healthy brain will instantly convert into your
subjective
> > life experience of the moment any idea that you believe. ~ Maxie C.
> > Maultsby, Jr., M.D.
> >
> > Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes. ~ Oscar
Wilde
> >
> > The Royal Society of London took as its motto Nullius in Verba
[Nothing
> > in Words], best translated as "Take nobody's word for it, see for
> > yourself." Granted its charter in 1662 by Charles II, the Royal
Society
> > is the oldest and most venerated of English scientific societies.
> >
> > By insisting on exactness, it changed the dominant mode of
scientific
> > inquiry from experience to experiment. The Society judged that
anecdotes
> > of gentlemen naturalists often were random, frivolous, and even
> > purposely misleading.
> >
> > Instead of transacting their findings in the language of "Wits or
> > Scholars," the Society strove for "clear senses" and a "mathematical
> > plainness." Experience was personal and never precisely repeatable,
> > while experiment signified that some types of experience could not
only
> > be confirmed, but also coordinated and systematically added to the
stock
> > of knowledge. Measuring instruments, which were largely an outgrowth
of
> > clock making, especially helped transform singular experiences into
> > repeatable experiments (Boorstin, 1983) ~ Richard E. Cytowic M.D.,
The
> > Neurological Side of Neuropsychology, page 18
> >
> > Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified
belief
> > (theory) from opinion.
> >
> > Zen specifically indicates zazen as the crucible to end suffering.
You
> > will be dragged around forever by the sentient beings (beliefs,
> > opinions, attitudes, moods, etc.) in your mind until you release
them in
> > zazen. You might think, feel, believe you know but the suffering you
> > experience testifies against you.
> >
> > And Jesus said, "By their fruits [postings, behavior, moods, etc.]
you
> > will know them." You will know whether they really know or are just
> > driven by personal ideological experience.
> >
> >
> >
> > pudgala2
> >
>

[Zen] Re: Experience

[Bill!]

Pudgala2,

With the utmost respect for the learned men you've quoted below I must point 
out what they mean by 'experience' is what I call 'perception' - the 
intellectualization of experience by the intellect.  If you substitute 
'perception' for 'experience' in all the quotes I would agree.

When I use the word 'experience' it refers solely to immediate, raw, sensory 
experience - what we call touch, sight, sound, smell and taste.  Experience is 
actually just one thing, not five, and that one thing is also called Buddha 
Nature.

This is the way I use those terms.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "pudgala2"  wrote:
>
> 
> We learn from experience that men never learn anything from experience.
> ~ G. B. Shaw
> 
> Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with [how you
> process] what happens to you. ~ Aldous Huxley
> 
> Ideology is the unspoken assumptions [sentient beings] that organize
> your experience of something. ~  Michael Pollan
> 
> Remember, your brain doesn't care what idea you believe and then
> perceive. Your healthy brain will instantly convert into your subjective
> life experience of the moment any idea that you believe. ~ Maxie C.
> Maultsby, Jr., M.D.
> 
> Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes. ~ Oscar Wilde
> 
> The Royal Society of London took as its motto Nullius in Verba [Nothing
> in Words], best translated as "Take nobody's word for it, see for
> yourself." Granted its charter in 1662 by Charles II, the Royal Society
> is the oldest and most venerated of English scientific societies.
> 
> By insisting on exactness, it changed the dominant mode of scientific
> inquiry from experience to experiment. The Society judged that anecdotes
> of gentlemen naturalists often were random, frivolous, and even
> purposely misleading.
> 
> Instead of transacting their findings in the language of "Wits or
> Scholars," the Society strove for "clear senses" and a "mathematical
> plainness." Experience was personal and never precisely repeatable,
> while experiment signified that some types of experience could not only
> be confirmed, but also coordinated and systematically added to the stock
> of knowledge. Measuring instruments, which were largely an outgrowth of
> clock making, especially helped transform singular experiences into
> repeatable experiments (Boorstin, 1983) ~ Richard E. Cytowic M.D., The
> Neurological Side of Neuropsychology, page 18
> 
> Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief
> (theory) from opinion.
> 
> Zen specifically indicates zazen as the crucible to end suffering. You
> will be dragged around forever by the sentient beings (beliefs,
> opinions, attitudes, moods, etc.) in your mind until you release them in
> zazen. You might think, feel, believe you know but the suffering you
> experience testifies against you.
> 
> And Jesus said, "By their fruits [postings, behavior, moods, etc.] you
> will know them." You will know whether they really know or are just
> driven by personal ideological experience.
> 
> 
> 
> pudgala2
>






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Merle Lester]

 
 joe..i found my book" secret of the golden flower "which i read in 1984... so 
i need to refresh before i can answer...
whilst looking in my library i came across a tasty  book.."zen soup"...lawrence 
g boldt 
too much bedtime reading at moment...ploughing through corruption in mexico at 
moment.."power of the dog" and also began... story of the peasants  in china a 
banned book in china in 2004... 
an idea sprung to mind..next drawing: 
the golden flower mandala...
cheers merle
  
Merle,

Now you tell us what stands out about the book for you, please.

I told you I know it is Taoist.

--Joe

> Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> joe..taoist..so?..merle
>   
> Merle,
> 
> Sure.  It's Taoist.
> 
> What did you find about the book that stands out for you?; you tell me first, 
> then I'll tell.  tnx,
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Merle Lester  wrote:
> > 
> > yes the book of the golden flower wothwhile...have you read it joe?...merle


 

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Merle,

Now you tell us what stands out about the book for you, please.

I told you I know it is Taoist.

--Joe

> Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> joe..taoist..so?..merle
>   
> Merle,
> 
> Sure.  It's Taoist.
> 
> What did you find about the book that stands out for you?; you tell me first, 
> then I'll tell.  tnx,
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Merle Lester  wrote:
> > 
> > yes the book of the golden flower wothwhile...have you read it joe?...merle





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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Merle Lester]

 joe..taoist..so?..merle
  
Merle,

Sure.  It's Taoist.

What did you find about the book that stands out for you?; you tell me first, 
then I'll tell.  tnx,

--Joe

> Merle Lester  wrote:
> 
> yes the book of the golden flower wothwhile...have you read it joe?...merle


 

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Edgar,

They are on a par.  Like Jack Parr.

The key point is that one could let it go; the other did not know how to.

Let it go, Edgar.

--J.

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Wrong, reread it...
> 
> Edgar






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

Wrong, reread it...

Edgar


On Jun 17, 2013, at 7:45 PM, Joe wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> No.
> 
> It was not a master. It was one of two brother monks.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Joe,
> > 
> > Remember the story of the master who carried the pretty young girl across 
> > the river?
> 
> 

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Edgar,

No.

It was not a master.  It was one of two brother monks.

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Joe,
> 
> Remember the story of the master who carried the pretty young girl across the 
> river?






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[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Edgar,

Keep forgetting.

It's the best way.

In our way.

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Joe,
> 
> Your angry insults are gone as soon as I scan them and don't even faze me...
> 
> You seem to be attached to what I've long forgotten...






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

Joe,

Remember the story of the master who carried the pretty young girl across the 
river?

Time for the disciple to set her down now!
:-)

Edgar


On Jun 16, 2013, at 6:27 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:

> Joe,
> 
> 
> Your angry insults are gone as soon as I scan them and don't even faze me...
> 
> You seem to be attached to what I've long forgotten...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> On Jun 16, 2013, at 1:31 PM, Joe wrote:
> 
>>  
>> Edgar, Group,
>> 
>> And a pretty good shot in the ass I gave you, eh?
>> 
>> It's just not I'm not Cupid.
>> 
>> This is why you've stopped your larruph-ing.
>> 
>> --Joe
>> 
>> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
>> >
>> > Joe,
>> > 
>> > Uh Oh. Joe just lost his Zen to his ego again!
>> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

Joe,

Your angry insults are gone as soon as I scan them and don't even faze me...

You seem to be attached to what I've long forgotten...

Edgar


On Jun 16, 2013, at 1:31 PM, Joe wrote:

> Edgar, Group,
> 
> And a pretty good shot in the ass I gave you, eh?
> 
> It's just not I'm not Cupid.
> 
> This is why you've stopped your larruph-ing.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Joe,
> > 
> > Uh Oh. Joe just lost his Zen to his ego again!
> 
> 

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Edgar, Group,

And a pretty good shot in the ass I gave you, eh?

It's just not I'm not Cupid.

This is why you've stopped your larruph-ing.

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Joe,
> 
> Uh Oh. Joe just lost his Zen to his ego again!






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

Joe,

Uh Oh. Joe just lost his Zen to his ego again!
:-)

Edgar



On Jun 16, 2013, at 12:34 PM, Joe wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> I make no claims; That's your small mind, gibbering.
> 
> No claims about "reason"; but I am a damned good Observer.
> 
> You may be laughing, as you please. But that further discloses and does not 
> disguise the fact, known to all, that you have always here been entirely and 
> completely wrong about the prerequisites and nature of Zen awakening, and 
> about motivations to practice. So, congratulations about your so thoroughly 
> missing the target. Might as well miss big! It's more of a show that way, 
> when you have no skill.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Joe,
> > 
> > Thanks for the laugh!
> > 
> > The guy who claims reason and understanding is an irrelevant impediment 
> > claims HE has more of it than me!
> > :-)
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > On Jun 16, 2013, at 11:51 AM, Joe wrote:
> > 
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > Nope. Some people enter the path entirely for Aesthetic reasons, and 
> > > reasons of the Heart. But you don't know any such people personally, and 
> > > are not one of them.
> > > 
> > > You obviously only preach what you know, and what you know is shockingly 
> > > little and limited.
> 
> 

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Edgar,

I make no claims; That's your small mind, gibbering.

No claims about "reason"; but I am a damned good Observer.

You may be laughing, as you please.  But that further discloses and does not 
disguise the fact, known to all, that you have always here been entirely and 
completely wrong about the prerequisites and nature of Zen awakening, and about 
motivations to practice.  So, congratulations about your so thoroughly missing 
the target.  Might as well miss big!  It's more of a show that way, when you 
have no skill.

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Joe,
> 
> Thanks for the laugh!
> 
> The guy who claims reason and understanding is an irrelevant impediment 
> claims HE has more of it than me!
> :-)
> 
> Edgar
> 
> On Jun 16, 2013, at 11:51 AM, Joe wrote:
> 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > Nope. Some people enter the path entirely for Aesthetic reasons, and 
> > reasons of the Heart. But you don't know any such people personally, and 
> > are not one of them.
> > 
> > You obviously only preach what you know, and what you know is shockingly 
> > little and limited.






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

Joe,

Thanks for the laugh!

The guy who claims reason and understanding is an irrelevant impediment claims 
HE has more of it than me!
:-)

Edgar



On Jun 16, 2013, at 11:51 AM, Joe wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> Nope. Some people enter the path entirely for Aesthetic reasons, and reasons 
> of the Heart. But you don't know any such people personally, and are not one 
> of them.
> 
> You obviously only preach what you know, and what you know is shockingly 
> little and limited.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > 
> > Reason and understanding are always essential to take one on the path to 
> > the point that realization occurs...
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

Yes, you are correct. Two different meanings of the word...

Edgar



On Jun 16, 2013, at 9:40 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> You talk of two realizations:
> 
> [Edgar] "...at some point I suddenly realized this was the heartbeat of the 
> sleeping Buddha, the Buddha sleeping in everything around me." 
> 
> This 'realization' is definitely one which employs reason, or at least is 
> communicated with a metaphorical statement employing reason.
> 
> Then you go on to say:
> 
> [Edgar] "At that point I had a sudden wonderful realization and Buddha awoke!"
> 
> I assume this second 'realization' is the realization of Buddha Nature.
> 
> Are those correct assumptions?
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> > 
> > Don't be dense. I'm speaking of realization of Buddha Nature..
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Jun 16, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > 
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > I assume you're using term 'realization' in some non-zen sense, like 'I 
> > > felt a chill, looked down and 'realized' I was not wearing any pants'; 
> > > and not referring to 'realization' (or what I would call 'experience') of 
> > > Buddha Nature.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Mike,
> > > > 
> > > > Good question, but as with most if not all realizations it DID EMPLY 
> > > > REASON in several respects. The understanding that the drum was the 
> > > > heartbeat of Buddha was an understanding of reason. The understanding 
> > > > that Buddha nature exists sleeping in all things is an understanding of 
> > > > reason. That reason enabled the path to the actual realization of the 
> > > > sleeping Buddha awakening
> > > > 
> > > > Reason and understanding are always essential to take one on the path 
> > > > to the point that realization occurs...
> > > > 
> > > > Edgar
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Jun 16, 2013, at 3:50 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thank you for sharing that personal experience. It reminds me of this 
> > > > > haiku by Buson :
> > > > > 
> > > > > The thwack of an ax 
> > > > > in the heart of a thicket 
> > > > > and woodpecker's tat-tats!
> > > > > 
> > > > > Of course, it could be written about any country where there are 
> > > > > woodpeckers, but if you've been to Japan, then you can understand the 
> > > > > feeling of a Japanese summer in the country that it evokes.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Just one point tho. Your awakening experience was a run of the mill, 
> > > > > garden variety Zen awakening (I don't mean that in a trivial way). It 
> > > > > occurred spontaneously without employing reason or logic (you didn't 
> > > > > even mention "ontological energy" ; )). So why do you now argue that 
> > > > > such break-thru's can only happen after using rationality and 
> > > > > intellectual reasoning?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> > > > > 
> > > > > From: Edgar Owen ; 
> > > > > To: ; 
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light 
> > > > > Sent: Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:21:34 PM 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > All,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Actually this Dharma Drum reference reminds me of one of my 
> > > > > realization experiences 
> > > > > 
> > > > > One night during the period I was walking through Japan I spent the 
> > > > > night sleeping in a field of weeds outside a Zen temple. Very early 
> > > > > in the morning way before sunrise a large drum began a continuous 
> > > > > slow ba Boom, ba Boom, ba Boom... This went on for some time but at 
> > > > > some point I suddenly realized this was the heartbeat of the sleeping 
> > > > > Buddha, 

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Edgar,

Nope.  Some people enter the path entirely for Aesthetic reasons, and reasons 
of the Heart.  But you don't know any such people personally, and are not one 
of them.

You obviously only preach what you know, and what you know is shockingly little 
and limited.

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
> 
> Reason and understanding are always essential to take one on the path to the 
> point that realization occurs...






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[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Merle,

Sure.  It's Taoist.

What did you find about the book that stands out for you?; you tell me first, 
then I'll tell.  tnx,

--Joe

> Merle Lester  wrote:
> 
> yes the book of the golden flower wothwhile...have you read it joe?...merle






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Bill!]

Edgar,

You talk of two realizations:

[Edgar] "...at some point I suddenly realized this was the heartbeat of the 
sleeping Buddha, the Buddha sleeping in everything around me."   

This 'realization' is definitely one which employs reason, or at least is 
communicated with a metaphorical statement employing reason.

Then you go on to say:

[Edgar]  "At that point I had a sudden wonderful realization and Buddha awoke!"

I assume this second 'realization' is the realization of Buddha Nature.

Are those correct assumptions?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> Don't be dense. I'm speaking of realization of Buddha Nature..
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 16, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > I assume you're using term 'realization' in some non-zen sense, like 'I 
> > felt a chill, looked down and 'realized' I was not wearing any pants'; and 
> > not referring to 'realization' (or what I would call 'experience') of 
> > Buddha Nature.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > 
> > > Good question, but as with most if not all realizations it DID EMPLY 
> > > REASON in several respects. The understanding that the drum was the 
> > > heartbeat of Buddha was an understanding of reason. The understanding 
> > > that Buddha nature exists sleeping in all things is an understanding of 
> > > reason. That reason enabled the path to the actual realization of the 
> > > sleeping Buddha awakening
> > > 
> > > Reason and understanding are always essential to take one on the path to 
> > > the point that realization occurs...
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Jun 16, 2013, at 3:50 AM, uerusuboyo@ wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Edgar,
> > > > 
> > > > Thank you for sharing that personal experience. It reminds me of this 
> > > > haiku by Buson :
> > > > 
> > > > The thwack of an ax 
> > > > in the heart of a thicket 
> > > > and woodpecker's tat-tats!
> > > > 
> > > > Of course, it could be written about any country where there are 
> > > > woodpeckers, but if you've been to Japan, then you can understand the 
> > > > feeling of a Japanese summer in the country that it evokes.
> > > > 
> > > > Just one point tho. Your awakening experience was a run of the mill, 
> > > > garden variety Zen awakening (I don't mean that in a trivial way). It 
> > > > occurred spontaneously without employing reason or logic (you didn't 
> > > > even mention "ontological energy" ; )). So why do you now argue that 
> > > > such break-thru's can only happen after using rationality and 
> > > > intellectual reasoning?
> > > > 
> > > > Mike
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> > > > 
> > > > From: Edgar Owen ; 
> > > > To: ; 
> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light 
> > > > Sent: Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:21:34 PM 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > All,
> > > > 
> > > > Actually this Dharma Drum reference reminds me of one of my realization 
> > > > experiences 
> > > > 
> > > > One night during the period I was walking through Japan I spent the 
> > > > night sleeping in a field of weeds outside a Zen temple. Very early in 
> > > > the morning way before sunrise a large drum began a continuous slow ba 
> > > > Boom, ba Boom, ba Boom... This went on for some time but at some point 
> > > > I suddenly realized this was the heartbeat of the sleeping Buddha, the 
> > > > Buddha sleeping in everything around me. At that point I had a sudden 
> > > > wonderful realization and Buddha awoke!
> > > > 
> > > > Edgar
> > > > 
> > > > On Jun 15, 2013, at 2:46 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Joe,
> > > > > 
> > > > > What's Dharma Drum?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Could this be a depiction of it? I was wondering who this guy was
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

Bill,

Don't be dense. I'm speaking of realization of Buddha Nature..

Edgar



On Jun 16, 2013, at 9:07 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> I assume you're using term 'realization' in some non-zen sense, like 'I felt 
> a chill, looked down and 'realized' I was not wearing any pants'; and not 
> referring to 'realization' (or what I would call 'experience') of Buddha 
> Nature.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> > 
> > Good question, but as with most if not all realizations it DID EMPLY REASON 
> > in several respects. The understanding that the drum was the heartbeat of 
> > Buddha was an understanding of reason. The understanding that Buddha nature 
> > exists sleeping in all things is an understanding of reason. That reason 
> > enabled the path to the actual realization of the sleeping Buddha 
> > awakening
> > 
> > Reason and understanding are always essential to take one on the path to 
> > the point that realization occurs...
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Jun 16, 2013, at 3:50 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
> > 
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > Thank you for sharing that personal experience. It reminds me of this 
> > > haiku by Buson :
> > > 
> > > The thwack of an ax 
> > > in the heart of a thicket 
> > > and woodpecker's tat-tats!
> > > 
> > > Of course, it could be written about any country where there are 
> > > woodpeckers, but if you've been to Japan, then you can understand the 
> > > feeling of a Japanese summer in the country that it evokes.
> > > 
> > > Just one point tho. Your awakening experience was a run of the mill, 
> > > garden variety Zen awakening (I don't mean that in a trivial way). It 
> > > occurred spontaneously without employing reason or logic (you didn't even 
> > > mention "ontological energy" ; )). So why do you now argue that such 
> > > break-thru's can only happen after using rationality and intellectual 
> > > reasoning?
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> > > 
> > > From: Edgar Owen ; 
> > > To: ; 
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light 
> > > Sent: Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:21:34 PM 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > All,
> > > 
> > > Actually this Dharma Drum reference reminds me of one of my realization 
> > > experiences 
> > > 
> > > One night during the period I was walking through Japan I spent the night 
> > > sleeping in a field of weeds outside a Zen temple. Very early in the 
> > > morning way before sunrise a large drum began a continuous slow ba Boom, 
> > > ba Boom, ba Boom... This went on for some time but at some point I 
> > > suddenly realized this was the heartbeat of the sleeping Buddha, the 
> > > Buddha sleeping in everything around me. At that point I had a sudden 
> > > wonderful realization and Buddha awoke!
> > > 
> > > Edgar
> > > 
> > > On Jun 15, 2013, at 2:46 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Joe,
> > > > 
> > > > What's Dharma Drum?
> > > > 
> > > > Could this be a depiction of it? I was wondering who this guy was
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Joe wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >> Donald,
> > > >> 
> > > >> All those things you say are correct, and can be confirmed by others 
> > > >> besides me, too.
> > > >> 
> > > >> They are not a good basis nor motivation for the Bodhisattva path, 
> > > >> however.
> > > >> 
> > > >> A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she is practicing in 
> > > >> order to open the heart of Compassion.
> > > >> 
> > > >> To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer Paths. It is not 
> > > >> really Chan.
> > > >> 
> > > >> I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in a good place for 
> > > >> it. How about Dharma Drum.
> > > >> 
> > > >> --Joe
> > > >> 
> > > >>>  wrote:
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Dear All,
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> If you believe the light inside all of us is the key to 
> > > >>> enlightenment, then please read on...
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight years is the following:
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> 1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
> > > >>> 2. Focus on your chakras.
> > > >>> 3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi channels.
> > > >>> 4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged into one and all 
> > > >>> three 
> > > >>> chi channels merged into one. You become one ball of chi. Due to all 
> > > >>> the focusing, your mind is empty, you see light emitting from all of 
> > > >>> your chakras. You enter into a realm of light.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Now you'll possess the power to heal as well as the wisdom for each 
> > > >>> encounter without the need to think.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> That's all I am suggesting for you to try to experience.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>> Thank you for your attention,
> > > >>> JM
> > > >> 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
> 
> 

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Bill!]

Edgar,

I assume you're using term 'realization' in some non-zen sense, like 'I felt a 
chill, looked down and 'realized' I was not wearing any pants'; and not 
referring to 'realization' (or what I would call 'experience') of Buddha Nature.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Mike,
> 
> Good question, but as with most if not all realizations it DID EMPLY REASON 
> in several respects. The understanding that the drum was the heartbeat of 
> Buddha was an understanding of reason. The understanding that Buddha nature 
> exists sleeping in all things is an understanding of reason. That reason 
> enabled the path to the actual realization of the sleeping Buddha 
> awakening
> 
> Reason and understanding are always essential to take one on the path to the 
> point that realization occurs...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 16, 2013, at 3:50 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
> 
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > Thank you for sharing that personal experience. It reminds me of this haiku 
> > by Buson :
> > 
> > The thwack of an ax 
> > in the heart of a thicket 
> > and woodpecker's tat-tats!
> > 
> > Of course, it could be written about any country where there are 
> > woodpeckers, but if you've been to Japan, then you can understand the 
> > feeling of a Japanese summer in the country that it evokes.
> > 
> > Just one point tho. Your awakening experience was a run of the mill, garden 
> > variety Zen awakening (I don't mean that in a trivial way). It occurred 
> > spontaneously without employing reason or logic (you didn't even mention 
> > "ontological energy" ; )). So why do you now argue that such break-thru's 
> > can only happen after using rationality and intellectual reasoning?
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> > 
> > From: Edgar Owen ; 
> > To: ; 
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light 
> > Sent: Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:21:34 PM 
> > 
> >  
> > All,
> > 
> > Actually this Dharma Drum reference reminds me of one of my realization 
> > experiences 
> > 
> > One night during the period I was walking through Japan I spent the night 
> > sleeping in a field of weeds outside a Zen temple. Very early in the 
> > morning way before sunrise a large drum began a continuous slow ba Boom, ba 
> > Boom, ba Boom... This went on for some time but at some point I suddenly 
> > realized this was the heartbeat of the sleeping Buddha, the Buddha sleeping 
> > in everything around me. At that point I had a sudden wonderful realization 
> > and Buddha awoke!
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > On Jun 15, 2013, at 2:46 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > 
> > > Joe,
> > > 
> > > What's Dharma Drum?
> > > 
> > > Could this be a depiction of it? I was wondering who this guy was
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Joe wrote:
> > > 
> > >> Donald,
> > >> 
> > >> All those things you say are correct, and can be confirmed by others 
> > >> besides me, too.
> > >> 
> > >> They are not a good basis nor motivation for the Bodhisattva path, 
> > >> however.
> > >> 
> > >> A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she is practicing in 
> > >> order to open the heart of Compassion.
> > >> 
> > >> To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer Paths. It is not 
> > >> really Chan.
> > >> 
> > >> I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in a good place for 
> > >> it. How about Dharma Drum.
> > >> 
> > >> --Joe
> > >> 
> > >>>  wrote:
> > >>> 
> > >>> Dear All,
> > >>> 
> > >>> If you believe the light inside all of us is the key to enlightenment, 
> > >>> then please read on...
> > >>> 
> > >>> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight years is the following:
> > >>> 
> > >>> 1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
> > >>> 2. Focus on your chakras.
> > >>> 3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi channels.
> > >>> 4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
> > >>> 
> > >>> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged into one and all three 
> > >>> chi channels merged into one

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

Mike,

Good question, but as with most if not all realizations it DID EMPLY REASON in 
several respects. The understanding that the drum was the heartbeat of Buddha 
was an understanding of reason. The understanding that Buddha nature exists 
sleeping in all things is an understanding of reason. That reason enabled the 
path to the actual realization of the sleeping Buddha awakening

Reason and understanding are always essential to take one on the path to the 
point that realization occurs...

Edgar



On Jun 16, 2013, at 3:50 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> Thank you for sharing that personal experience. It reminds me of this haiku 
> by Buson :
> 
> The thwack of an ax 
> in the heart of a thicket 
> and woodpecker's tat-tats!
> 
> Of course, it could be written about any country where there are woodpeckers, 
> but if you've been to Japan, then you can understand the feeling of a 
> Japanese summer in the country that it evokes.
> 
> Just one point tho. Your awakening experience was a run of the mill, garden 
> variety Zen awakening (I don't mean that in a trivial way). It occurred 
> spontaneously without employing reason or logic (you didn't even mention 
> "ontological energy" ; )). So why do you now argue that such break-thru's can 
> only happen after using rationality and intellectual reasoning?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> 
> From: Edgar Owen ; 
> To: ; 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light 
> Sent: Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:21:34 PM 
> 
>  
> All,
> 
> Actually this Dharma Drum reference reminds me of one of my realization 
> experiences 
> 
> One night during the period I was walking through Japan I spent the night 
> sleeping in a field of weeds outside a Zen temple. Very early in the morning 
> way before sunrise a large drum began a continuous slow ba Boom, ba Boom, ba 
> Boom... This went on for some time but at some point I suddenly realized this 
> was the heartbeat of the sleeping Buddha, the Buddha sleeping in everything 
> around me. At that point I had a sudden wonderful realization and Buddha 
> awoke!
> 
> Edgar
> 
> On Jun 15, 2013, at 2:46 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> 
> > Joe,
> > 
> > What's Dharma Drum?
> > 
> > Could this be a depiction of it? I was wondering who this guy was
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Joe wrote:
> > 
> >> Donald,
> >> 
> >> All those things you say are correct, and can be confirmed by others 
> >> besides me, too.
> >> 
> >> They are not a good basis nor motivation for the Bodhisattva path, however.
> >> 
> >> A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she is practicing in 
> >> order to open the heart of Compassion.
> >> 
> >> To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer Paths. It is not 
> >> really Chan.
> >> 
> >> I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in a good place for it. 
> >> How about Dharma Drum.
> >> 
> >> --Joe
> >> 
> >>>  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Dear All,
> >>> 
> >>> If you believe the light inside all of us is the key to enlightenment, 
> >>> then please read on...
> >>> 
> >>> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight years is the following:
> >>> 
> >>> 1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
> >>> 2. Focus on your chakras.
> >>> 3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi channels.
> >>> 4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
> >>> 
> >>> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged into one and all three 
> >>> chi channels merged into one. You become one ball of chi. Due to all 
> >>> the focusing, your mind is empty, you see light emitting from all of 
> >>> your chakras. You enter into a realm of light.
> >>> 
> >>> Now you'll possess the power to heal as well as the wisdom for each 
> >>> encounter without the need to think.
> >>> 
> >>> That's all I am suggesting for you to try to experience.
> >>> 
> >>> Thank you for your attention,
> >>> JM
> >> 
> > 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Merle Lester]

 yes edgar..why indeed?..merle


  
Edgar,

Thank you for sharing that personal experience. It reminds me of this haiku by 
Buson :

The thwack of an ax 
in the heart of a thicket 
and woodpecker's tat-tats!

Of course, it could be written about any country where there are woodpeckers, 
but if you've been to Japan, then you can understand the feeling of a Japanese 
summer in the country that it evokes.

Just one point tho. Your awakening experience was a run of the mill, garden 
variety Zen awakening (I don't mean that in a trivial way). It occurred 
spontaneously without employing reason or logic (you didn't even mention 
"ontological energy" ; )). So why do you now argue that such break-thru's can 
only happen after using rationality and intellectual reasoning?

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Edgar Owen ; 
To:  ; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light 
Sent:  Sat, Jun 15, 2013 7:21:34 PM 


  
All,

Actually this Dharma Drum reference reminds me of one of my realization 
experiences 

One night during the period I was walking through Japan I spent the night 
sleeping in a field of weeds outside a Zen temple. Very early in the morning 
way before sunrise a large drum began a continuous slow ba Boom, ba Boom, ba 
Boom... This went on for some time but at some point I suddenly realized this 
was the heartbeat of the sleeping Buddha, the Buddha sleeping in everything 
around me. At that point I had a sudden wonderful realization and Buddha awoke!

Edgar

On Jun 15, 2013, at 2:46 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:

> Joe,
> 
> What's Dharma Drum?
> 
> Could this be a depiction of it? I was wondering who this guy was
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Joe wrote:
> 
>> Donald,
>> 
>> All those things you say are correct, and can be confirmed by others besides 
>> me, too.
>> 
>> They are not a good basis nor motivation for the Bodhisattva path, however.
>> 
>> A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she is practicing in order 
>> to open the heart of Compassion.
>> 
>> To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer Paths.  It is not 
>> really Chan.
>> 
>> I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in a good place for it.  
>> How about Dharma Drum.
>> 
>> --Joe
>> 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear All,
>>> 
>>> If you believe the light inside all of us is the key to enlightenment, then 
>>> please read on...
>>> 
>>> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight years is the following:
>>> 
>>> 1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
>>> 2. Focus on your chakras.
>>> 3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi channels.
>>> 4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
>>> 
>>> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged into one and all three 
>>> chi channels merged into one.  You become one ball of chi. Due to all 
>>> the focusing, your mind is empty, you see light emitting from all of 
>>> your chakras.  You enter into a realm of light.
>>> 
>>> Now you'll possess the power to heal as well as the wisdom for each 
>>> encounter without the need to think.
>>> 
>>> That's all I am suggesting for you to try to experience.
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your attention,
>>> JM
>> 
> 

 
 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[uerusuboyo]

Edgar,Thank you for sharing that personal experience. It reminds me 
of this haiku by Buson :The thwack of an ax in the heart of a 
thicket and woodpecker's tat-tats!Of course, it could be written 
about any country where there are woodpeckers, but if you've been to Japan, 
then you can understand the feeling of a Japanese summer in the country that it 
evokes.Just one point tho. Your awakening experience was a run of the 
mill, garden variety Zen awakening (I don't mean that in a trivial way). It 
occurred spontaneously without employing reason or logic (you didn't even 
mention "ontological energy" ; )). So why do you now argue that such 
break-thru's can only happen after using rationality and intellectual 
reasoning?MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Merle Lester]

 yes the book of the golden flower wothwhile...have you read it joe?...merle


  
Hi Edgar,  Thank you.  Indeed, this is what's being quoted in Diamond Sutra as, 
"indescribable existence within pure emptiness."  JM


On 6/15/2013 12:29 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:

  
>Joe, and JM,
>
>No! The light that JM describes IS the central path, not
  the outer path.
>
>The 'Book of the Golden Flower' agrees and describes the
  light and speaking of the light says that "before there
  was nothingness in the center of being but now there is
  being in the center of nothingness"..
>
>Edgar
>
>On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Joe wrote:
>
>> Donald,
>> 
>> All those things you say are correct, and can be
  confirmed by others besides me, too.
>> 
>> They are not a good basis nor motivation for the
  Bodhisattva path, however.
>> 
>> A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she
  is practicing in order to open the heart of Compassion.
>> 
>> To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer
  Paths. It is not really Chan.
>> 
>> I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in
  a good place for it. How about Dharma Drum.
>> 
>> --Joe
>> 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear All,
>>> 
>>> If you believe the light inside all of us is the
  key to enlightenment, then please read on...
>>> 
>>> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight
  years is the following:
>>> 
>>> 1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
>>> 2. Focus on your chakras.
>>> 3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi
  channels.
>>> 4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
>>> 
>>> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged
  into one and all three 
>>> chi channels merged into one. You become one ball
  of chi. Due to all 
>>> the focusing, your mind is empty, you see light
  emitting from all of 
>>> your chakras. You enter into a realm of light.
>>> 
>>> Now you'll possess the power to heal as well as
  the wisdom for each 
>>> encounter without the need to think.
>>> 
>>> That's all I am suggesting for you to try to
  experience.
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your attention,
>>> JM
>> 
>
>

 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

OK, thanks...

Edgar



On Jun 15, 2013, at 6:28 PM, Joe wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> Dharma Drum is neither a lineage nor a sect in Taiwan. It is a name applied 
> to practice centers, a university, and training centers for monks, nuns, and 
> lay people.
> 
> There are affiliate branch centers in 14 countries, and in 18 U.S. states 
> (plus District of Columbia).
> 
> The name "Dharma Drum" harks back to the drum in ancient Ch'an which was used 
> then -- as now -- to summon monastics to the Ch'an Hall to hear the Master's 
> teaching and encouragement talk.
> 
> The Dharma Drum Mountain University in Taiwan happens to be at a place called 
> Dharma Drum Mountain, which the university name also honors.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > 
> > My question to you is Dharma Drum something from ancient Buddhist texts or 
> > beliefs or was it just invented recently with the Dharma Drum sect in 
> > Taiwan..
> >
> 
> 

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Edgar,

Dharma Drum is neither a lineage nor a sect in Taiwan.  It is a name applied to 
practice centers, a university, and training centers for monks, nuns, and lay 
people.

There are affiliate branch centers in 14 countries, and in 18 U.S. states (plus 
District of Columbia).

The name "Dharma Drum" harks back to the drum in ancient Ch'an which was used 
then -- as now -- to summon monastics to the Ch'an Hall to hear the Master's 
teaching and encouragement talk.

The Dharma Drum Mountain University in Taiwan happens to be at a place called 
Dharma Drum Mountain, which the university name also honors.

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
> 
> My question to you is Dharma Drum something from ancient Buddhist texts or 
> beliefs or was it just invented recently with the Dharma Drum sect in Taiwan..
>





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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

Joe,

My question to you is Dharma Drum something from ancient Buddhist texts or 
beliefs or was it just invented recently with the Dharma Drum sect in Taiwan..

Edgar



On Jun 15, 2013, at 2:37 PM, Joe wrote:

> Donald,
> 
> Good; it won't hurt you to see a Dharma Drum teacher then, at Chinshan, or 
> Taipei.
> 
> Will you do it?
> 
> best,
> 
> --Joe
> 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > If you believe that YOUR way is the only way, then you have "attached to 
> > dharma". :-)
> 
> 

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Donald,

I made no comments about the challenge or prescription you give to carry out 
for a year.

I note that many of us have been at it for a good deal longer than that.  So, 
we may speak directly already.  And, we are doing so.

My comments are about the view of Chan that you carry.  I suggest you 
touch-base with other Chan teachers and see what they think of your view of 
Chan.  The Dharma Drum people are some there who come to mind who are readily 
available.  That is all.

Now, will you do it?

--Joe

>   wrote:
>
> Joe,
> 
> Dharma dharma without dharma.  No dharma is dharma.  (Diamond sutra)
> 
> Joe, Dharma is not in the teaching, not in the words, not in the logic, not 
> in our brain.
> 
> What I have always advised is a practice for all of us to experience.  
> Instead of making judgment based on "formed dharma", I am asking everyone to 
> give it try.
> 
> If you don't think it is Chan, it is your brain making the judgment and not 
> your heart.  Your heart will experience if you abandon your mental filter and 
> give it a try.






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[覺妙精明 （JMJM）]

Hi Edgar,  Thank you.  Indeed, this is what's being quoted in Diamond 
Sutra as, "indescribable existence within pure emptiness." JM


On 6/15/2013 12:29 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:


Joe, and JM,

No! The light that JM describes IS the central path, not the outer path.

The 'Book of the Golden Flower' agrees and describes the light and 
speaking of the light says that "before there was nothingness in the 
center of being but now there is being in the center of nothingness"..


Edgar

On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Joe wrote:

> Donald,
>
> All those things you say are correct, and can be confirmed by others 
besides me, too.

>
> They are not a good basis nor motivation for the Bodhisattva path, 
however.

>
> A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she is practicing 
in order to open the heart of Compassion.

>
> To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer Paths. It is 
not really Chan.

>
> I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in a good place 
for it. How about Dharma Drum.

>
> --Joe
>
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> If you believe the light inside all of us is the key to 
enlightenment, then please read on...

>>
>> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight years is the following:
>>
>> 1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
>> 2. Focus on your chakras.
>> 3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi channels.
>> 4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
>>
>> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged into one and all 
three

>> chi channels merged into one. You become one ball of chi. Due to all
>> the focusing, your mind is empty, you see light emitting from all of
>> your chakras. You enter into a realm of light.
>>
>> Now you'll possess the power to heal as well as the wisdom for each
>> encounter without the need to think.
>>
>> That's all I am suggesting for you to try to experience.
>>
>> Thank you for your attention,
>> JM
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[覺妙精明 （JMJM）]

Joe,

Dharma dharma without dharma.  No dharma is dharma.  (Diamond sutra)

Joe, Dharma is not in the teaching, not in the words, not in the logic, 
not in our brain.


What I have always advised is a practice for all of us to experience.  
Instead of making judgment based on "formed dharma", I am asking 
everyone to give it try.


If you don't think it is Chan, it is your brain making the judgment and 
not your heart.  Your heart will experience if you abandon your mental 
filter and give it a try.


That's all.
JM





On 6/15/2013 1:07 PM, Joe wrote:


Donald,

Good, that you had come to know Sheng Yen, while he still lived. The 
other Dharma Drum successors are available, and you can still consult. 
Just to have another opinion about Chan and its practice may be 
worthwhile to you.


"Picking and choosing" while we are awake is not necessary; and if we 
do it, it is a symptom that we are not awake. That's the meaning of 
the line from Xinxinming.


But if, at the beginning, one chooses to practice a path which isn't 
Chan, and which is instead, "buji-Zen", in which people say that 
"Everything is Zen", and there is no need to practice since we are all 
"already" this-and-that, well, ...that's a poor choice at the outset. 
One can, and should, do better, by choosing a true path to enter. That 
choice is a necessary choice.


It's one thing to hear, let's say, Sheng Yen's Dharma talk, or public 
talks, in a large public auditorium;


It's another thing to personally consult a Dharma Drum teacher, and 
have a private chat. Just see how one of them may reply when you 
discuss your vision or version of Chan with one of them. There may be 
many points of agreement. I am not worried for you about the points 
where there is agreement. So I can nonetheless, and again, advise and 
encourage such a private meeting, if you like, and if you are 
interested, and if you are not for some reason prejudiced against 
them, and attached to something else. These people may be close-by, to 
you. You can just talk.


best,

--Joe

>  wrote:
>
> Actually Joe. I have been to many of Sheng Yen's teachings. As my
> practice, I don't comment on his teaching. I only share my 
experience and witness.

>
> Thank you for your heart felt recommendation.
>
> If I may share one sharing that I did in 2008...
> "Even the notion of 'I understood.' is from the conscious mind... 
and not from our heart."

>
> The key to enlightenment is seeing the light being emitted from our
> heart. It is a state of being where every description is trying to
> name. If you do, then congratulations, if you did not, then try to
> experience it. Chan is simply an experience. All of us can.
>
> Don't select your journey. Pick or choose is not recommended as 
stated in Xinxinming. :-)

>
> When you experienced all, then you'll know what to share and when to 
share it.

>

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Edgar,

Warm and fuzzy!

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> This went on for some time but at some point I suddenly realized this was the 
> heartbeat of the sleeping Buddha, the Buddha sleeping in everything around me.





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[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Donald,

Good, that you had come to know Sheng Yen, while he still lived.  The other 
Dharma Drum successors are available, and you can still consult.  Just to have 
another opinion about Chan and its practice may be worthwhile to you.

"Picking and choosing" while we are awake is not necessary; and if we do it, it 
is a symptom that we are not awake.  That's the meaning of the line from 
Xinxinming.

But if, at the beginning, one chooses to practice a path which isn't Chan, and 
which is instead, "buji-Zen", in which people say that "Everything is Zen", and 
there is no need to practice since we are all "already" this-and-that, well, 
...that's a poor choice at the outset.  One can, and should, do better, by 
choosing a true path to enter.  That choice is a necessary choice.

It's one thing to hear, let's say, Sheng Yen's Dharma talk, or public talks, in 
a large public auditorium;

It's another thing to personally consult a Dharma Drum teacher, and have a 
private chat.  Just see how one of them may reply when you discuss your vision 
or version of Chan with one of them.  There may be many points of agreement.  I 
am not worried for you about the points where there is agreement.  So I can 
nonetheless, and again, advise and encourage such a private meeting, if you 
like, and if you are interested, and if you are not for some reason prejudiced 
against them, and attached to something else.  These people may be close-by, to 
you.  You can just talk.

best,

--Joe

>  wrote:
>
> Actually Joe.  I have been to many of Sheng Yen's teachings.  As my 
> practice, I don't comment on his teaching. I only share my experience and 
> witness.
> 
> Thank you for your heart felt recommendation.
> 
> If I may share one sharing that I did in 2008...
> "Even the notion of 'I understood.' is from the conscious mind... and not 
> from our heart."
> 
> The key to enlightenment is seeing the light being emitted from our 
> heart.  It is a state of being where every description is trying to 
> name.  If you do, then congratulations, if you did not, then try to 
> experience it.  Chan is simply an experience.  All of us can.
> 
> Don't select your journey.  Pick or choose is not recommended as stated in 
> Xinxinming.  :-)
> 
> When you experienced all, then you'll know what to share and when to share it.
>





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[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Edgar,

The book you mention is an exemplary text of Taoism.

Taoism is an Outer Path, from the point of view of Chan.

Edgar, "Outer Path" in Chan parlance means "OTHER-" Path, outside the 
Buddhadharma.

And so it is.

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Joe, and JM,
> 
> No! The light that JM describes IS the central path, not the outer path.
> 
> The 'Book of the Golden Flower' agrees and describes the light and speaking 
> of the light says that "before there was nothingness in the center of being 
> but now there is being in the center of nothingness"..






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

Joe, and JM,

No! The light that JM describes IS the central path, not the outer path.

The 'Book of the Golden Flower' agrees and describes the light and speaking of 
the light says that "before there was nothingness in the center of being but 
now there is being in the center of nothingness"..

Edgar



On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Joe wrote:

> Donald,
> 
> All those things you say are correct, and can be confirmed by others besides 
> me, too.
> 
> They are not a good basis nor motivation for the Bodhisattva path, however.
> 
> A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she is practicing in order 
> to open the heart of Compassion.
> 
> To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer Paths.  It is not 
> really Chan.
> 
> I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in a good place for it.  
> How about Dharma Drum.
> 
> --Joe
> 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> If you believe the light inside all of us is the key to enlightenment, then 
>> please read on...
>> 
>> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight years is the following:
>> 
>> 1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
>> 2. Focus on your chakras.
>> 3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi channels.
>> 4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
>> 
>> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged into one and all three 
>> chi channels merged into one.  You become one ball of chi. Due to all 
>> the focusing, your mind is empty, you see light emitting from all of 
>> your chakras.  You enter into a realm of light.
>> 
>> Now you'll possess the power to heal as well as the wisdom for each 
>> encounter without the need to think.
>> 
>> That's all I am suggesting for you to try to experience.
>> 
>> Thank you for your attention,
>> JM
> 





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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

All,

Actually this Dharma Drum reference reminds me of one of my realization 
experiences 

One night during the period I was walking through Japan I spent the night 
sleeping in a field of weeds outside a Zen temple. Very early in the morning 
way before sunrise a large drum began a continuous slow ba Boom, ba Boom, ba 
Boom... This went on for some time but at some point I suddenly realized this 
was the heartbeat of the sleeping Buddha, the Buddha sleeping in everything 
around me. At that point I had a sudden wonderful realization and Buddha awoke!

Edgar




On Jun 15, 2013, at 2:46 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:

> Joe,
> 
> What's Dharma Drum?
> 
> Could this be a depiction of it? I was wondering who this guy was
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Joe wrote:
> 
>> Donald,
>> 
>> All those things you say are correct, and can be confirmed by others besides 
>> me, too.
>> 
>> They are not a good basis nor motivation for the Bodhisattva path, however.
>> 
>> A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she is practicing in order 
>> to open the heart of Compassion.
>> 
>> To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer Paths.  It is not 
>> really Chan.
>> 
>> I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in a good place for it.  
>> How about Dharma Drum.
>> 
>> --Joe
>> 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dear All,
>>> 
>>> If you believe the light inside all of us is the key to enlightenment, then 
>>> please read on...
>>> 
>>> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight years is the following:
>>> 
>>> 1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
>>> 2. Focus on your chakras.
>>> 3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi channels.
>>> 4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
>>> 
>>> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged into one and all three 
>>> chi channels merged into one.  You become one ball of chi. Due to all 
>>> the focusing, your mind is empty, you see light emitting from all of 
>>> your chakras.  You enter into a realm of light.
>>> 
>>> Now you'll possess the power to heal as well as the wisdom for each 
>>> encounter without the need to think.
>>> 
>>> That's all I am suggesting for you to try to experience.
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your attention,
>>> JM
>> 
> 





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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

Joe, and JM,

No! The light that JM describes IS the central path, not the outer path.

The 'Book of the Golden Flower' agrees and describes the light and speaking of 
the light says that "before there was nothingness in the center of being but 
now there is being in the center of nothingness"..

Edgar



On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Joe wrote:

> Donald,
> 
> All those things you say are correct, and can be confirmed by others besides 
> me, too.
> 
> They are not a good basis nor motivation for the Bodhisattva path, however.
> 
> A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she is practicing in order 
> to open the heart of Compassion.
> 
> To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer Paths.  It is not 
> really Chan.
> 
> I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in a good place for it.  
> How about Dharma Drum.
> 
> --Joe
> 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> If you believe the light inside all of us is the key to enlightenment, then 
>> please read on...
>> 
>> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight years is the following:
>> 
>> 1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
>> 2. Focus on your chakras.
>> 3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi channels.
>> 4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
>> 
>> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged into one and all three 
>> chi channels merged into one.  You become one ball of chi. Due to all 
>> the focusing, your mind is empty, you see light emitting from all of 
>> your chakras.  You enter into a realm of light.
>> 
>> Now you'll possess the power to heal as well as the wisdom for each 
>> encounter without the need to think.
>> 
>> That's all I am suggesting for you to try to experience.
>> 
>> Thank you for your attention,
>> JM
> 





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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[覺妙精明 （JMJM）]

Actually Joe.  I have been to many of Sheng Yen's teachings.  As my 
practice, I don't comment on his teaching. I only share my experience 
and witness.


Thank you for your heart felt recommendation.

If I may share one sharing that I did in 2008...
"Even the notion of 'I understood.' is from the conscious mind... and 
not from our heart."


The key to enlightenment is seeing the light being emitted from our 
heart.  It is a state of being where every description is trying to 
name.  If you do, then congratulations, if you did not, then try to 
experience it.  Chan is simply an experience.  All of us can.


Don't select your journey.  Pick or choose is not recommended as stated 
in Xinxinming.  :-)


When you experienced all, then you'll know what to share and when to 
share it.


With palms together,
JM
sign off here... with a bow..


On 6/15/2013 11:37 AM, Joe wrote:


Donald,

Good; it won't hurt you to see a Dharma Drum teacher then, at 
Chinshan, or Taipei.


Will you do it?

best,

--Joe

>  wrote:
>
> If you believe that YOUR way is the only way, then you have 
"attached to dharma". :-)

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Edgar Owen]

JM,

Yes, exactly! That's what I've been trying to explain to Joe but he's still to 
attached to his teacher and sect to realize that the way exists in everything..

Thanks JM... Hope YOU can make him understand

Edgar



On Jun 15, 2013, at 2:27 PM, 覺妙精明 （JMJM） wrote:

> Joe,  Every way is Chan.  All way is Chan.  Chan is ALL and ONE.  
> 
> If you believe that YOUR way is the only way, then you have "attached to 
> dharma".  :-)
> 
> JM
> 
> On 6/15/2013 10:44 AM, Joe wrote:
>>  
>> Donald,
>> 
>> I suggest you go around and seek a second opinion about what Ch'an is (that 
>> should be easy on your island).
>> 
>> The confirmatory signs you mention are just that, confirmatory signs, and 
>> simply -- although distinctly -- mark a TRANSITION; and they pass. They are 
>> harmful if they are preserved as attachments.
>> 
>> One should be left with the spontaneous and simultaneous arising of Wisdom 
>> and Compassion. Other features are "sidelights", including the lights. The 
>> major light is the Moonlight of Wisdom.
>> 
>> I think your teaching contains the trappings of Outer Paths. Caution! I say 
>> this as a friend and fellow practitioner: my way is Chan.
>> 
>> See the Dharma Drum people. Do they agree that your school is genuine Chan? 
>> Or is it over-weighted with folk-religion, and Outer Path practices? I would 
>> trust the Dharma Drum people. It cannot hurt to consult them, and your shifu 
>> should not consider it an infidelity if you do consult them. Mainly we are 
>> safest if we are committed to the true Dharma, not to a lineage's view, 
>> ...unless it is a view of the true Dharma. Yours (your lineage's) does not 
>> seem quite true. I would urge caution, and encourage a consultation.
>> 
>> --Joe
>> 
>> >  wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Joe,
>> > 
>> > Ultimately, the practice of Chan is to be one with ALL. Some call it 
>> > compassion, some call it enlightenment, some call it Buddha nature. In 
>> > order to be ONE, we must unify our body, mind and spirit first.
>> > 
>> > All in all, we begin by purifying our body, then our mind, then our 
>> > spirit. All efforts are focused on the inside. By light, I mean the 
>> > light emitting from inside of us and not outside. :-)
>> > 
>> > When each sentient being (cell) inside of us is purified, each emits 
>> > light. We will see thousands of lights. That's what Buddha experienced 
>> > under the Bodhi tree and enlightened.
>> > 
>> > Thank you for your input.
>> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light [1 Attachment]

[Edgar Owen]

<*>[Attachment(s) from Edgar Owen included below]

Joe,

What's Dharma Drum?

Could this be a depiction of it? I was wondering who this guy was




<*>Attachment(s) from Edgar Owen:

<*> 1 of 1 Photo(s) 
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  <*> gandhara-11463.jpg



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On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Joe wrote:

> Donald,
> 
> All those things you say are correct, and can be confirmed by others besides 
> me, too.
> 
> They are not a good basis nor motivation for the Bodhisattva path, however.
> 
> A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she is practicing in order 
> to open the heart of Compassion.
> 
> To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer Paths.  It is not 
> really Chan.
> 
> I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in a good place for it.  
> How about Dharma Drum.
> 
> --Joe
> 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> If you believe the light inside all of us is the key to enlightenment, then 
>> please read on...
>> 
>> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight years is the following:
>> 
>> 1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
>> 2. Focus on your chakras.
>> 3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi channels.
>> 4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
>> 
>> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged into one and all three 
>> chi channels merged into one.  You become one ball of chi. Due to all 
>> the focusing, your mind is empty, you see light emitting from all of 
>> your chakras.  You enter into a realm of light.
>> 
>> Now you'll possess the power to heal as well as the wisdom for each 
>> encounter without the need to think.
>> 
>> That's all I am suggesting for you to try to experience.
>> 
>> Thank you for your attention,
>> JM
> 

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Donald,

Good; it won't hurt you to see a Dharma Drum teacher then, at Chinshan, or 
Taipei.

Will you do it?

best,

--Joe

>   wrote:
> 
> If you believe that YOUR way is the only way, then you have "attached to 
> dharma".  :-)






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[覺妙精明 （JMJM）]

Joe,  Every way is Chan.  All way is Chan.  Chan is ALL and ONE.

If you believe that YOUR way is the only way, then you have "attached to 
dharma".  :-)


JM

On 6/15/2013 10:44 AM, Joe wrote:


Donald,

I suggest you go around and seek a second opinion about what Ch'an is 
(that should be easy on your island).


The confirmatory signs you mention are just that, confirmatory signs, 
and simply -- although distinctly -- mark a TRANSITION; and they pass. 
They are harmful if they are preserved as attachments.


One should be left with the spontaneous and simultaneous arising of 
Wisdom and Compassion. Other features are "sidelights", including the 
lights. The major light is the Moonlight of Wisdom.


I think your teaching contains the trappings of Outer Paths. Caution! 
I say this as a friend and fellow practitioner: my way is Chan.


See the Dharma Drum people. Do they agree that your school is genuine 
Chan? Or is it over-weighted with folk-religion, and Outer Path 
practices? I would trust the Dharma Drum people. It cannot hurt to 
consult them, and your shifu should not consider it an infidelity if 
you do consult them. Mainly we are safest if we are committed to the 
true Dharma, not to a lineage's view, ...unless it is a view of the 
true Dharma. Yours (your lineage's) does not seem quite true. I would 
urge caution, and encourage a consultation.


--Joe

>  wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> Ultimately, the practice of Chan is to be one with ALL. Some call it
> compassion, some call it enlightenment, some call it Buddha nature. In
> order to be ONE, we must unify our body, mind and spirit first.
>
> All in all, we begin by purifying our body, then our mind, then our
> spirit. All efforts are focused on the inside. By light, I mean the
> light emitting from inside of us and not outside. :-)
>
> When each sentient being (cell) inside of us is purified, each emits
> light. We will see thousands of lights. That's what Buddha experienced
> under the Bodhi tree and enlightened.
>
> Thank you for your input.

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Donald,

I suggest you go around and seek a second opinion about what Ch'an is (that 
should be easy on your island).

The confirmatory signs you mention are just that, confirmatory signs, and 
simply -- although distinctly -- mark a TRANSITION; and they pass.  They are 
harmful if they are preserved as attachments.

One should be left with the spontaneous and simultaneous arising of Wisdom and 
Compassion.  Other features are "sidelights", including the lights.  The major 
light is the Moonlight of Wisdom.

I think your teaching contains the trappings of Outer Paths.  Caution!  I say 
this as a friend and fellow practitioner: my way is Chan.

See the Dharma Drum people.  Do they agree that your school is genuine Chan?  
Or is it over-weighted with folk-religion, and Outer Path practices?  I would 
trust the Dharma Drum people.  It cannot hurt to consult them, and your shifu 
should not consider it an infidelity if you do consult them.  Mainly we are 
safest if we are committed to the true Dharma, not to a lineage's view, 
...unless it is a view of the true Dharma.  Yours (your lineage's) does not 
seem quite true.  I would urge caution, and encourage a consultation.

--Joe

>  wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
> 
> Ultimately, the practice of Chan is to be one with ALL.  Some call it 
> compassion, some call it enlightenment, some call it Buddha nature.  In 
> order to be ONE, we must unify our body, mind and spirit first.
> 
> All in all, we begin by purifying our body, then our mind, then our 
> spirit.   All efforts are focused on the inside.   By light, I mean the 
> light emitting from inside of us and not outside.  :-)
> 
> When each sentient being (cell) inside of us is purified, each emits 
> light. We will see thousands of lights.  That's what Buddha experienced 
> under the Bodhi tree and enlightened.
> 
> Thank you for your input.






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience the light

[覺妙精明 （JMJM）]

Hi Joe,

Ultimately, the practice of Chan is to be one with ALL.  Some call it 
compassion, some call it enlightenment, some call it Buddha nature.  In 
order to be ONE, we must unify our body, mind and spirit first.


All in all, we begin by purifying our body, then our mind, then our 
spirit.   All efforts are focused on the inside.   By light, I mean the 
light emitting from inside of us and not outside.  :-)


When each sentient being (cell) inside of us is purified, each emits 
light. We will see thousands of lights.  That's what Buddha experienced 
under the Bodhi tree and enlightened.


Thank you for your input.
JM




On 6/15/2013 10:15 AM, Joe wrote:


Donald,

All those things you say are correct, and can be confirmed by others 
besides me, too.


They are not a good basis nor motivation for the Bodhisattva path, 
however.


A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she is practicing in 
order to open the heart of Compassion.


To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer Paths. It is not 
really Chan.


I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in a good place for 
it. How about Dharma Drum.


--Joe

>  wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> If you believe the light inside all of us is the key to 
enlightenment, then please read on...

>
> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight years is the following:
>
> 1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
> 2. Focus on your chakras.
> 3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi channels.
> 4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
>
> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged into one and all three
> chi channels merged into one. You become one ball of chi. Due to all
> the focusing, your mind is empty, you see light emitting from all of
> your chakras. You enter into a realm of light.
>
> Now you'll possess the power to heal as well as the wisdom for each
> encounter without the need to think.
>
> That's all I am suggesting for you to try to experience.
>
> Thank you for your attention,
> JM

[Zen] Re: Experience the light

[Joe]

Donald,

All those things you say are correct, and can be confirmed by others besides 
me, too.

They are not a good basis nor motivation for the Bodhisattva path, however.

A Bodhisattva, to be a Bodhisattva, knows that he/she is practicing in order to 
open the heart of Compassion.

To practice for light, etc., is the practice of Outer Paths.  It is not really 
Chan.

I think you can find true Chan on Taiwan!: you are in a good place for it.  How 
about Dharma Drum.

--Joe

>  wrote:
>
> Dear All,
> 
> If you believe the light inside all of us is the key to enlightenment, then 
> please read on...
> 
> All I am asking you to TRY for the last eight years is the following:
> 
>  1. Focus on the path of your belly breathing.
>  2. Focus on your chakras.
>  3. Focus and guide your chi along your chi channels.
>  4. Do this everyday for one hour minimum.
> 
> One day, you will find all of your chakra merged into one and all three 
> chi channels merged into one.  You become one ball of chi. Due to all 
> the focusing, your mind is empty, you see light emitting from all of 
> your chakras.  You enter into a realm of light.
> 
> Now you'll possess the power to heal as well as the wisdom for each 
> encounter without the need to think.
> 
> That's all I am suggesting for you to try to experience.
> 
> Thank you for your attention,
> JM





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Re: [Zen] Re: experience

[Merle Lester]

 bill!... okay i get your drift..merle


  
Merle,

Experience does not come in many shades, tones and colors.  Experience is Just 
THIS!  Buddha Nature.  No sifting required.  It's thinking that creates the 
shades, tones and colors and does the sifting - just like Shakespeare said.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  bill!! experience comes in many forms shades tones and colours...
> 
> don't tell me you capture it all in one go...you must sift through it 
> otherwise you'd have experience overload?..merle
> 
> 
>   
> Merle,
> 
> GREAT QUESTION!
> 
> Experience is real.  Nothing else.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  bill!..so what is real to you?... something you select?...merle
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > Merle,
> > 
> > See my previous reply.  Both are illusory.
> > 
> > In the case of Yin/Yang they are presented as an analog (relativistic)  
> > system instead of the usual Good/Bad digital (absolutist) system.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  so bill:,,,how come there is ying and yang? which one is the 
> > > illusion?..merle
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   
> > > Mike,
> > > 
> > > There are not two sides of the coin.  There is only one.  What you 
> > > perceive as the 'other side' is a dualistic - an illusion.
> > > 
> > > The illusion of 'being human' and believing that to be 'special' or 
> > > 'unique' is no different from the illusion of self.  Both these illusions 
> > > (all illusions really) only server to create an illusory distinction from 
> > > what you then perceive is 'everything else'.  Duality is this two-sided 
> > > coin you have created.
> > > 
> > > Of course I suffer.  I do so because I get sucked into (attach) to 
> > > illusion the same as everyone else.  Even after attaching to illusion and 
> > > when the attachment fades enough I then do remember that this is all 
> > > illusion; and yes it does ameliorate the immediate suffering and 
> > > eventually dissolves it entirely.
> > > 
> > > I would certainly comfort someone who is suffering.  I would try to 
> > > assure them that things will get better.  BUT, even in their time of 
> > > greatest sorrow if they asked me IN ALL EARNESTNESS (as is the litany in 
> > > most koans) how to alleviate the suffering I would tell them the truth.  
> > > Suffering is caused by attachment to illusions.  I would actually not 
> > > just tell them this but would suggest they sit (zazen) because just 
> > > telling someone something is not really effective.  They must experience 
> > > it for themselves.  I personally don't believe misleading someone is 
> > > helpful to bring them to this experience.
> > > 
> > > I sometimes feel you display a balanced, patronizing relativism that may 
> > > serve to reinforce your illusion of compassion, but in practice falls 
> > > woefully short.
> > > 
> > > The koan HYAKUJO AND THE FOX was indeed about the percieved interplay 
> > > between absolutism and relativism.  The warning however was not just 
> > > about absolutism, it included relativism also.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > .
> > >
> >
>


 

[Zen] Re: experience

[Bill!]

Merle,

Experience does not come in many shades, tones and colors.  Experience is Just 
THIS!  Buddha Nature.  No sifting required.  It's thinking that creates the 
shades, tones and colors and does the sifting - just like Shakespeare said.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  bill!! experience comes in many forms shades tones and colours...
> 
> don't tell me you capture it all in one go...you must sift through it 
> otherwise you'd have experience overload?..merle
> 
> 
>   
> Merle,
> 
> GREAT QUESTION!
> 
> Experience is real.  Nothing else.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  bill!..so what is real to you?... something you select?...merle
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > Merle,
> > 
> > See my previous reply.  Both are illusory.
> > 
> > In the case of Yin/Yang they are presented as an analog (relativistic)  
> > system instead of the usual Good/Bad digital (absolutist) system.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  so bill:,,,how come there is ying and yang? which one is the 
> > > illusion?..merle
> > > 
> > > 
> > >   
> > > Mike,
> > > 
> > > There are not two sides of the coin.  There is only one.  What you 
> > > perceive as the 'other side' is a dualistic - an illusion.
> > > 
> > > The illusion of 'being human' and believing that to be 'special' or 
> > > 'unique' is no different from the illusion of self.  Both these illusions 
> > > (all illusions really) only server to create an illusory distinction from 
> > > what you then perceive is 'everything else'.  Duality is this two-sided 
> > > coin you have created.
> > > 
> > > Of course I suffer.  I do so because I get sucked into (attach) to 
> > > illusion the same as everyone else.  Even after attaching to illusion and 
> > > when the attachment fades enough I then do remember that this is all 
> > > illusion; and yes it does ameliorate the immediate suffering and 
> > > eventually dissolves it entirely.
> > > 
> > > I would certainly comfort someone who is suffering.  I would try to 
> > > assure them that things will get better.  BUT, even in their time of 
> > > greatest sorrow if they asked me IN ALL EARNESTNESS (as is the litany in 
> > > most koans) how to alleviate the suffering I would tell them the truth.  
> > > Suffering is caused by attachment to illusions.  I would actually not 
> > > just tell them this but would suggest they sit (zazen) because just 
> > > telling someone something is not really effective.  They must experience 
> > > it for themselves.  I personally don't believe misleading someone is 
> > > helpful to bring them to this experience.
> > > 
> > > I sometimes feel you display a balanced, patronizing relativism that may 
> > > serve to reinforce your illusion of compassion, but in practice falls 
> > > woefully short.
> > > 
> > > The koan HYAKUJO AND THE FOX was indeed about the percieved interplay 
> > > between absolutism and relativism.  The warning however was not just 
> > > about absolutism, it included relativism also.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > .
> > >
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> Good luck.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> Thank you, Anthony. Bill! assures me that he is at his most
  vigilant while watching TV with a beer in his hand. I have
  my doubts. ;-)
  Steve





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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Anthony Wu]

Steve,
 
Good luck.
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 18/2/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 18 February, 2011, 12:20 PM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> You need a more capable demon to protect you.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> Hey, I'm on a budget, and Bill!'s fee is very reasonable.
Steve
> 
> 
>

[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> You need a more capable demon to protect you.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> Hey, I'm on a budget, and Bill!'s fee is very reasonable.
  Steve
> 
> 
>






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[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain  wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
>  
>  It was a great experience!  The professor  is a counselong psychologist, 
> but also a zen priest.  The text  he used really opened doors for me.  As 
> to the challenge-- being a girly-girl,  it was my fondness for hot showers 
> and  my  blow-dryer that almost did me in.  But I made it;)~ k
>  
> 
> Excellent!
  Steve
> 
> 
> 






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Kristy McClain]

Hi Steve,
 
 It was a great experience!  The professor  is a counselong psychologist, but 
also a zen priest.  The text  he used really opened doors for me.  As to the 
challenge-- being a girly-girl,  it was my fondness for hot showers and  my  
blow-dryer that almost did me in.  But I made it;)~ k
 


--- On Thu, 2/17/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 11:16 AM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
>  
> Anthony doesn't argue.  He reminds me of the first class I enrolled in after 
> my accident.  "Inward Bound".  The professor used an older text:  
> "Beyond Health and Normality: Exploration of Exceptional Psychological 
> Well-Being".  We had weekly classes for a month.. and then spent six weeks 
> back-packing in the Red Rock Canyons. ;)  k
>  
>
Hi Kristy. That must have been both challenging and fun, just like
Anthony!
Steve









  

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Anthony Wu]

Steve,
 
You need a more capable demon to protect you.
 
Anthony

--- On Fri, 18/2/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 18 February, 2011, 2:19 AM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill,
>  
> I strongly protest that you only gave me two interjection marks, while Steve 
> go five. How unfair you are
>  
> Anthony
> 
> Bill always liked me better than you.
Steve

[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill,
>  
> I strongly protest that you only gave me two interjection marks, while Steve 
> go five. How unfair you are
>  
> Anthony
> 
> Bill always liked me better than you.
  Steve
 






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[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
>  
> Anthony doesn't argue.  He reminds me of the first class I enrolled in after 
> my accident.  "Inward Bound".  The professor used an older text:  
> "Beyond Health and Normality: Exploration of Exceptional Psychological 
> Well-Being".  We had weekly classes for a month.. and then spent six weeks 
> back-packing in the Red Rock Canyons. ;)  k
>  
>
 Hi Kristy. That must have been both challenging and fun, just like
 Anthony!
 Steve





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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Kristy McClain]

Anthony,
 
I was just trying to muscle in on those demon protectors...k


--- On Thu, 2/17/11, Anthony Wu  wrote:


From: Anthony Wu 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 3:03 AM


  








Kristy,
 
What a relief. I have an ally.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:


From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:00 PM


  






Steve,
 
 
Anthony doesn't argue.  He reminds me of the first class I enrolled in after my 
accident.  "Inward Bound".  The professor used an older text:  "Beyond Health 
and Normality: Exploration of Exceptional Psychological Well-Being".  We had 
weekly classes for a month.. and then spent six weeks back-packing in the Red 
Rock Canyons. ;)  k
 

Hi Anthony. My goodness, you love to argue! I am not asserting any
fixed opinions on the matter, just suggesting possibilities. Please
take care, lest you fall into the Klesha of excessive dogmatism.
Steve

 












  

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
I assume that by getting more ! from you, I can share more of your 
enlightenment.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 8:19 PM


  



Anthony, What makes you think more is better?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill,
>  
> I strongly protest that you only gave me two interjection marks, while Steve 
> go five. How unfair you are
>  
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Thu, 17/2/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 10:38 AM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony!!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> >  
> > You say, "Nagarjuna
> > said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
> > reality are incurable."
> >  
> > So we should not discount everything as illusion.
> >  
> > You also say, " Gotama wasn't
> > trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
> > medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha."
> >  
> > When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
> > convincing yourself that it is just illusion.
> >  
> > Gotama also says the world is like a man hit by a poisonous arrow. The 
> > first thing to do is to pull it out and cure the disease. Then, I think, we 
> > should think about why he was hit by an arrow. It includes the question of 
> > karma.
> >  
> > Anthony
> > 
> > --- On Thu, 17/2/11, SteveW  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > From: SteveW 
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:01 AM
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> > >
> > > Steve,
> > >  
> > > Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No 
> > > bribes can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, 
> > > what rules this universe?
> > >  
> > > Anthony
> > >
> > > Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
> > then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
> > For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
> > is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
> > You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
> > not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
> > experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
> > Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
> > give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
> > that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
> > As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
> > 12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
> > impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
> > cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
> > to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
> > The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
> > relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
> > of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
> > Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
> > Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
> > trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
> > medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
> > said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
> > reality are incurable. IMO.
> > Steve 
> > >
> >
>

[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Bill!]

Anthony,  What makes you think more is better?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill,
>  
> I strongly protest that you only gave me two interjection marks, while Steve 
> go five. How unfair you are
>  
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Thu, 17/2/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 10:38 AM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony!!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> >  
> > You say, "Nagarjuna
> > said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
> > reality are incurable."
> >  
> > So we should not discount everything as illusion.
> >  
> > You also say, " Gotama wasn't
> > trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
> > medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha."
> >  
> > When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
> > convincing yourself that it is just illusion.
> >  
> > Gotama also says the world is like a man hit by a poisonous arrow. The 
> > first thing to do is to pull it out and cure the disease. Then, I think, we 
> > should think about why he was hit by an arrow. It includes the question of 
> > karma.
> >  
> > Anthony
> > 
> > --- On Thu, 17/2/11, SteveW  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > From: SteveW 
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:01 AM
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> > >
> > > Steve,
> > >  
> > > Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No 
> > > bribes can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, 
> > > what rules this universe?
> > >  
> > > Anthony
> > >
> > > Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
> > then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
> > For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
> > is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
> > You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
> > not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
> > experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
> > Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
> > give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
> > that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
> > As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
> > 12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
> > impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
> > cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
> > to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
> > The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
> > relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
> > of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
> > Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
> > Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
> > trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
> > medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
> > said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
> > reality are incurable. IMO.
> > Steve 
> > >
> >
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[siska_cen]

Hi Anthony,

> When a psychological pain occurrs, one can see it as an illusion and it can 
> go away. 

To me, seeing it as 'illusion' does not make the pain go away. Its existence 
just does not trouble me as much and I don't really suffer from the pain.

>When a physical pain appears, one cannot eliminate it with any thoughts, but 
>you can use Mayka's method of 'making friends' with it, and will learn to live 
>with it with more equinimity.

This method, is similar to convincing myself that the pain is just an illusion. 
It works for Mayka, but doesn't work for me.

Anyway, I don't have actual experience with cancer pain either, so when it 
comes to it, the above is also only an assumption.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 18:26:21 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

Siska,
 
Without my own experiences, I can only make the following assumptions:
 
When a psychological pain occurrs, one can see it as an illusion and it can go 
away.
 
When a physical pain appears, one cannot eliminate it with any thoughts, but 
you can use Mayka's method of 'making friends' with it, and will learn to live 
with it with more equinimity.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 5:46 PM


  



Hi Anthony,

> When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
> convincing yourself that it is just illusion.

I think this applies to any case, not just cancer. However, to me, the problem 
seems to lie at the need of convincing. When one see the pain as illusion, then 
it is an illusion. When one does not see the pain as illusion, then it is not 
an illusion. Any efforts to convince oneself that it is otherwise would be 
really difficult. 

In my case, it would never work. 

siska



From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 06:07:29 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

  






Steve,
 
You say, "Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable."
 
So we should not discount everything as illusion.
 
You also say, " Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha."
 
When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
convincing yourself that it is just illusion.
 
Gotama also says the world is like a man hit by a poisonous arrow. The first 
thing to do is to pull it out and cure the disease. Then, I think, we should 
think about why he was hit by an arrow. It includes the question of karma.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:01 AM


  



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No bribes 
> can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, what rules 
> this universe?
>  
> Anthony
>
> Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable. IMO.
Steve 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Anthony Wu]

Siska,
 
Without my own experiences, I can only make the following assumptions:
 
When a psychological pain occurrs, one can see it as an illusion and it can go 
away.
 
When a physical pain appears, one cannot eliminate it with any thoughts, but 
you can use Mayka's method of 'making friends' with it, and will learn to live 
with it with more equinimity.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 5:46 PM


  



Hi Anthony,

> When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
> convincing yourself that it is just illusion.

I think this applies to any case, not just cancer. However, to me, the problem 
seems to lie at the need of convincing. When one see the pain as illusion, then 
it is an illusion. When one does not see the pain as illusion, then it is not 
an illusion. Any efforts to convince oneself that it is otherwise would be 
really difficult. 

In my case, it would never work. 

siska



From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 06:07:29 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

  






Steve,
 
You say, "Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable."
 
So we should not discount everything as illusion.
 
You also say, " Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha."
 
When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
convincing yourself that it is just illusion.
 
Gotama also says the world is like a man hit by a poisonous arrow. The first 
thing to do is to pull it out and cure the disease. Then, I think, we should 
think about why he was hit by an arrow. It includes the question of karma.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:01 AM


  



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No bribes 
> can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, what rules 
> this universe?
>  
> Anthony
>
> Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable. IMO.
Steve 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Anthony Wu]

Kristy,
 
What a relief. I have an ally.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, Kristy McClain  wrote:


From: Kristy McClain 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:00 PM


  








Steve,
 
 
Anthony doesn't argue.  He reminds me of the first class I enrolled in after my 
accident.  "Inward Bound".  The professor used an older text:  "Beyond Health 
and Normality: Exploration of Exceptional Psychological Well-Being".  We had 
weekly classes for a month.. and then spent six weeks back-packing in the Red 
Rock Canyons. ;)  k
 

Hi Anthony. My goodness, you love to argue! I am not asserting any
fixed opinions on the matter, just suggesting possibilities. Please
take care, lest you fall into the Klesha of excessive dogmatism.
Steve

 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Anthony Wu]

Bill,
 
I strongly protest that you only gave me two interjection marks, while Steve go 
five. How unfair you are
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 10:38 AM


  



Anthony!!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> You say, "Nagarjuna
> said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
> reality are incurable."
>  
> So we should not discount everything as illusion.
>  
> You also say, " Gotama wasn't
> trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
> medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha."
>  
> When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
> convincing yourself that it is just illusion.
>  
> Gotama also says the world is like a man hit by a poisonous arrow. The first 
> thing to do is to pull it out and cure the disease. Then, I think, we should 
> think about why he was hit by an arrow. It includes the question of karma.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Thu, 17/2/11, SteveW  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: SteveW 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:01 AM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> >  
> > Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No 
> > bribes can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, 
> > what rules this universe?
> >  
> > Anthony
> >
> > Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
> then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
> For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
> is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
> You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
> not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
> experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
> Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
> give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
> that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
> As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
> 12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
> impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
> cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
> to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
> The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
> relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
> of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
> Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
> Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
> trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
> medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
> said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
> reality are incurable. IMO.
> Steve 
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[siska_cen]

Hi Anthony,

> When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
> convincing yourself that it is just illusion.

I think this applies to any case, not just cancer. However, to me, the problem 
seems to lie at the need of convincing. When one see the pain as illusion, then 
it is an illusion. When one does not see the pain as illusion, then it is not 
an illusion. Any efforts to convince oneself that it is otherwise would be 
really difficult. 

In my case, it would never work. 

siska

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 06:07:29 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

Steve,
 
You say, "Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable."
 
So we should not discount everything as illusion.
 
You also say, " Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha."
 
When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
convincing yourself that it is just illusion.
 
Gotama also says the world is like a man hit by a poisonous arrow. The first 
thing to do is to pull it out and cure the disease. Then, I think, we should 
think about why he was hit by an arrow. It includes the question of karma.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:01 AM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No bribes 
> can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, what rules 
> this universe?
>  
> Anthony
>
> Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable. IMO.
Steve 
> 

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Kristy McClain]

Steve,
 
 
Anthony doesn't argue.  He reminds me of the first class I enrolled in after my 
accident.  "Inward Bound".  The professor used an older text:  "Beyond Health 
and Normality: Exploration of Exceptional Psychological Well-Being".  We had 
weekly classes for a month.. and then spent six weeks back-packing in the Red 
Rock Canyons. ;)  k
 

Hi Anthony. My goodness, you love to argue! I am not asserting any
fixed opinions on the matter, just suggesting possibilities. Please
take care, lest you fall into the Klesha of excessive dogmatism.
Steve

 










  

[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> You say, "Nagarjuna
> said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
> reality are incurable."
>  
> So we should not discount everything as illusion.
>  
> You also say, " Gotama wasn't
> trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
> medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha."
>  
> When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
> convincing yourself that it is just illusion.
>  
> Gotama also says the world is like a man hit by a poisonous arrow. The first 
> thing to do is to pull it out and cure the disease. Then, I think, we should 
> think about why he was hit by an arrow. It includes the question of karma.
>  
> Anthony

  Hi Anthony. My goodness, you love to argue! I am not asserting any
  fixed opinions on the matter, just suggesting possibilities. Please
  take care, lest you fall into the Klesha of excessive dogmatism.
  Steve
> 
> 
> 
>






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[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Bill!]

Anthony!!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> You say, "Nagarjuna
> said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
> reality are incurable."
>  
> So we should not discount everything as illusion.
>  
> You also say, " Gotama wasn't
> trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
> medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha."
>  
> When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
> convincing yourself that it is just illusion.
>  
> Gotama also says the world is like a man hit by a poisonous arrow. The first 
> thing to do is to pull it out and cure the disease. Then, I think, we should 
> think about why he was hit by an arrow. It includes the question of karma.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Thu, 17/2/11, SteveW  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: SteveW 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:01 AM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> >  
> > Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No 
> > bribes can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, 
> > what rules this universe?
> >  
> > Anthony
> >
> > Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
> then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
> For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
> is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
> You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
> not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
> experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
> Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
> give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
> that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
> As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
> 12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
> impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
> cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
> to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
> The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
> relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
> of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
> Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
> Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
> trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
> medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
> said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
> reality are incurable. IMO.
> Steve 
> >
>






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[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Bill!]

Steve!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> >  
> > Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No 
> > bribes can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, 
> > what rules this universe?
> >  
> > Anthony
> >
> > Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
>   then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
>   For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
>   is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
>   You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
>   not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
>   experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
>   Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
>   give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
>   that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
>   As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
>   12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
>   impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
>   cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
>   to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
>   The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
>   relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
>   of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
>   Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
>   Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
>   trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
>   medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
>   said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
>   reality are incurable. IMO.
>   Steve 
> >
>






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Anthony Wu]

Steve,
 
You say, "Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable."
 
So we should not discount everything as illusion.
 
You also say, " Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha."
 
When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
convincing yourself that it is just illusion.
 
Gotama also says the world is like a man hit by a poisonous arrow. The first 
thing to do is to pull it out and cure the disease. Then, I think, we should 
think about why he was hit by an arrow. It includes the question of karma.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:01 AM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No bribes 
> can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, what rules 
> this universe?
>  
> Anthony
>
> Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable. IMO.
Steve 
> 

[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No bribes 
> can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, what rules 
> this universe?
>  
> Anthony
>
> Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
  then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
  For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
  is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
  You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
  not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
  experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
  Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
  give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
  that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
  As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
  12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
  impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
  cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
  to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
  The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
  relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
  of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
  Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
  Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
  trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
  medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
  said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
  reality are incurable. IMO.
  Steve 
> 






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Anthony Wu]

Steve,
 
Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No bribes 
can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, what rules 
this universe?
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 16/2/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 16 February, 2011, 8:15 AM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> Do you believe your karma can be manipulated by others?
>  
> Anthony
> 
> So YOU are the one behind all of my misfortunes! I KNEW that it couldn't be 
> my fault! You won't get away with this! I've come to a financial 
> understanding with your demon!
Steve
> 
> 

[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
>  
> Do you believe your karma can be manipulated by others?
>  
> Anthony
> 
> So YOU are the one behind all of my misfortunes! I KNEW that it couldn't be 
> my fault! You won't get away with this! I've come to a financial 
> understanding with your demon!
Steve
> 
> 






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Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[Anthony Wu]

Steve,
 
Do you believe your karma can be manipulated by others?
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 16/2/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 16 February, 2011, 3:07 AM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
 wrote:
>
> Good Morning to All,
> 
> It seems to me that the concept of "merit" in Buddhism is seldom 
> discussed in the forums that I was involved in. Yet it is a vital 
> concept of our journey.
> 
> There are quite a few descriptions of merit in the Buddhist sutras. In 
> the Chinese culture, merit is also popularly equated to "good deeds" or 
> "elimination of karma". Some of us even interpret Buddhahood to be the 
> reward for merit or as if merit is our report card.
> 
> Yet, these are all just descriptions. How do we directly experience 
> merit? The following are my witness.
> 
> My teacher taught me that merit is the result and not the cause. We 
> don't seek merit. Merits are just accumulation of deeds and only 
> through deeds.
> 
> "Chan practice" is composed of "cleans, detach, enhance" of oneself and 
> "sense, inspire, act" to others. The "cleans, detach, enhance" is in 
> the human realm. The "sense, inspire, act" is in the Bodhisattva realm.
> 
> When we "cleans, detach, enhance" enough, we will naturally be able to 
> turn our focus from ourselves to "sense" the needs of others and be 
> "inspire" with wisdom and to "act" to resolve and help. As we become 
> purer, when we transfer our focus from ourselves onto others, our heart 
> shines through with all its compassion and wisdom. In other words, our 
> spirituality is enhance to a higher level, where karma will bother us 
> less. Gradually, we live more frequently in the realm of the 
> Bodhisattva and less in the realm of human.
> 
> All of us can experience this spiritual phenomenon directly. In the 
> experience of energy or chi, I have learned that majority of our Chan 
> practitioner are able to "sense" the discomfort of others after two to 
> three years of dedicated sitting. Many actually become worried of this 
> natural ability and afraid to get into crowded placed.
> 
> Actually reaching this level requires dedicated sitting to purify 
> oneself. Anyone who are able to reach this sensitivity should be 
> congratulated to and not be afraid. The fact of the matter is, the more 
> we are able to sense, undertake and process, the more powerful our chi 
> will become.
> 
> As we become more powerful, the more karmic force of other we can 
> process. The more people we can help. Actually, the more people will 
> come to us, naturally and instinctively.
> 
> Merit is really just our innate ability to help others. The more people 
> we can help to liberate from their sufferings, the more powerful our 
> journey will be. And more we our spirituality is enhanced.
> 
> In short, merit is nothing but a description for a necessary section of 
> our entire journey. Without "sense, inspire and act" to others, we are 
> just rationalizing, or bluntly, having an ego trip.
> 
> Sutra say, "Respect sentient being. Absorb sentient being." In 
> layman's language, "enter the mud to grow the lotus."
> 
> As my Teacher always remind me, "everything can be experience. Once you 
> experienced it, it is yours. You become the sutra and the Buddha. 
> Otherwise, it is just a bunch of words."
> 
> Thank you for your time to read this.
> JMJM
> Head Teacher
> Order of Chan
> 
> -- 
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> http://www.heartchan.org
>
Thank you, JM.
Steve

[Zen] Re: Experience Merit

[SteveW]

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
 wrote:
>
> Good Morning to All,
> 
> It seems to me that the concept of "merit" in Buddhism is seldom 
> discussed in the forums that I was involved in.  Yet it is a vital 
> concept of our journey.
> 
> There are quite a few descriptions of merit in the Buddhist sutras.  In 
> the Chinese culture, merit is also popularly equated to "good deeds" or 
> "elimination of karma".  Some of us even interpret Buddhahood to be the 
> reward for merit or as if merit is our report card.
> 
> Yet, these are all just descriptions.  How do we directly experience 
> merit?  The following are my witness.
> 
> My teacher taught me that merit is the result and not the cause.  We 
> don't seek merit.  Merits are just accumulation of deeds and only 
> through deeds.
> 
> "Chan practice" is composed of "cleans, detach, enhance" of oneself and 
> "sense, inspire, act" to others.  The "cleans, detach, enhance" is in 
> the human realm.  The "sense, inspire, act" is in the Bodhisattva realm.
> 
> When we "cleans, detach, enhance" enough, we will naturally be able to 
> turn our focus from ourselves to "sense" the needs of others and be 
> "inspire" with wisdom and to "act" to resolve and help.  As we become 
> purer, when we transfer our focus from ourselves onto others, our heart 
> shines through with all its compassion and wisdom.  In other words, our 
> spirituality is enhance to a higher level, where karma will bother us 
> less.  Gradually, we live more frequently in the realm of the 
> Bodhisattva and less in the realm of human.
> 
> All of us can experience this spiritual phenomenon directly.  In the 
> experience of energy or chi, I have learned that majority of our Chan 
> practitioner are able to "sense" the discomfort of others after two to 
> three years of dedicated sitting.  Many actually become worried of this 
> natural ability and afraid to get into crowded placed.
> 
> Actually reaching this level requires dedicated sitting to purify 
> oneself.  Anyone who are able to reach this sensitivity should be 
> congratulated to and not be afraid.  The fact of the matter is, the more 
> we are able to sense, undertake and process, the more powerful our chi 
> will become.
> 
> As we become more powerful, the more karmic force of other we can 
> process.  The more people we can help. Actually, the more people will 
> come to us, naturally and instinctively.
> 
> Merit is really just our innate ability to help others.  The more people 
> we can help to liberate from their sufferings, the more powerful our 
> journey will be.  And more we our spirituality is enhanced.
> 
> In short,  merit is nothing but a description for a necessary section of 
> our entire journey.  Without "sense, inspire and act" to others, we are 
> just rationalizing, or bluntly, having an ego trip.
> 
> Sutra say, "Respect sentient being.  Absorb sentient being."  In 
> layman's language, "enter the mud to grow the lotus."
> 
> As my Teacher always remind me, "everything can be experience.  Once you 
> experienced it, it is yours.  You become the sutra and the Buddha.  
> Otherwise, it is just a bunch of words."
> 
> Thank you for your time to read this.
> JMJM
> Head Teacher
> Order of Chan
> 
> -- 
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> http://www.heartchan.org
>
  Thank you, JM.
  Steve





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