Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-04 Thread Pieter Hintjens
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:06 AM, Colin Johnsun colin.a...@gmail.com wrote:

 I agree with all previous posters, +1 on 2.2. Semver is easy to
 understand. You could refactor the code as much as you want but if it
 doesn't change the ABI then it is should only be 2.x.x release.

OK, we have consensus.

I've renamed the github repo to zeromq2-x, so anyone who's cloned this
will have to fix-up their remotes.

We're ready to go for a 2.2.0 release then. Nice work, everyone.

-Pieter
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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-04 Thread Chuck Remes

On Apr 4, 2012, at 5:44 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote:

 On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:06 AM, Colin Johnsun colin.a...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I agree with all previous posters, +1 on 2.2. Semver is easy to
 understand. You could refactor the code as much as you want but if it
 doesn't change the ABI then it is should only be 2.x.x release.
 
 OK, we have consensus.
 
 I've renamed the github repo to zeromq2-x, so anyone who's cloned this
 will have to fix-up their remotes.
 
 We're ready to go for a 2.2.0 release then. Nice work, everyone.

This is how it is supposed to work. Good dialogue, everyone.

cr

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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread Joshua Foster
I back ported the fix in https://github.com/zeromq/zeromq2-1/pull/45
The issue is logged in https://zeromq.jira.com/browse/LIBZMQ-349

Joshua

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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread Pieter Hintjens
Very nice work. I've backported it to 2.1, it'll go in the next release.

Small point for improvement, please write issues as problems rather
than solutions, so e.g. Send/receive timeouts missing, makes REQ
sockets less useful.

-Pieter

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Joshua Foster jhaw...@gmail.com wrote:
 I back ported the fix in https://github.com/zeromq/zeromq2-1/pull/45
 The issue is logged in https://zeromq.jira.com/browse/LIBZMQ-349

 Joshua

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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread Chuck Remes

On Apr 3, 2012, at 7:30 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote:

 Very nice work. I've backported it to 2.1, it'll go in the next release.
 
 Small point for improvement, please write issues as problems rather
 than solutions, so e.g. Send/receive timeouts missing, makes REQ
 sockets less useful.
 
 -Pieter
 
 On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Joshua Foster jhaw...@gmail.com wrote:
 I back ported the fix in https://github.com/zeromq/zeromq2-1/pull/45
 The issue is logged in https://zeromq.jira.com/browse/LIBZMQ-349


If we are following the rules of semantic versioning, this new feature should 
cause a 2.2.0 release. New features that do not break backward compatibility 
cause a minor version increase.

Please take a look at point 8 at semver.org for the explanation.

cr

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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread Pieter Hintjens
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Chuck Remes li...@chuckremes.com wrote:

 If we are following the rules of semantic versioning, this new feature should 
 cause a 2.2.0 release. New features that do not break backward compatibility 
 cause a minor version increase.

You are right that this goes against the policy:
http://www.zeromq.org/docs:policies.

I'm going to argue that the policy is broken and needs fixing.

My argument is that the version numbering should reflect the
*expected* maturity level of the product and not the semantic
versioning of the ABI. Most of us would expect that a small change
like this RCVTIMEO/SNDTIMEO would happen in a patch level, whereas
we'd expect a 2.2 release to come with significant new code. It would
be doubly surprising to release 2.2.0 that is immediately marked
stable.

This policy has caused frequent pain in the past. It has justified
unnecessary shifts in APIs and protocols, with no incentive for
backwards compatibility. It comingles interoperability levels with
code stability whereas the two operate orthogonally.

Counter example: if someone does a major refactoring of 2.1 code, does
that emerge as a new minor release, or a patch? Neither work.

Policy should work as we expect, rather than come as a shock every time.

I'd like to see two specific changes:

1. backwards compatibility defined by contract, as we've started to do in C4.
2. release numbers reflect expected stability of the codebase, not
ABIs or protocols.

Comments?

-Pieter
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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread Chuck Remes

On Apr 3, 2012, at 10:13 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote:

 On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Chuck Remes li...@chuckremes.com wrote:
 
 If we are following the rules of semantic versioning, this new feature 
 should cause a 2.2.0 release. New features that do not break backward 
 compatibility cause a minor version increase.
 
 You are right that this goes against the policy:
 http://www.zeromq.org/docs:policies.
 
 I'm going to argue that the policy is broken and needs fixing.
 
 My argument is that the version numbering should reflect the
 *expected* maturity level of the product and not the semantic
 versioning of the ABI. Most of us would expect that a small change
 like this RCVTIMEO/SNDTIMEO would happen in a patch level, whereas
 we'd expect a 2.2 release to come with significant new code. It would
 be doubly surprising to release 2.2.0 that is immediately marked
 stable.
 
 This policy has caused frequent pain in the past. It has justified
 unnecessary shifts in APIs and protocols, with no incentive for
 backwards compatibility. It comingles interoperability levels with
 code stability whereas the two operate orthogonally.
 
 Counter example: if someone does a major refactoring of 2.1 code, does
 that emerge as a new minor release, or a patch? Neither work.
 
 Policy should work as we expect, rather than come as a shock every time.
 
 I'd like to see two specific changes:
 
 1. backwards compatibility defined by contract, as we've started to do in C4.
 2. release numbers reflect expected stability of the codebase, not
 ABIs or protocols.
 
 Comments?

I don't find a change from 2.1.11 to 2.2.0 to be surprising if there is a new 
feature. I do *not* expect significant new code with a minor version bump. I 
*do expect* significant new code for a major version bump (2 - 3).

Additionally, if a stable code base (2.1.11) gets a single new feature and it 
goes through the usual vetting process before the version is bumped, then it is 
*not surprising* to have it marked as stable. BTW, I think most people would 
consider a x.y.0 to always be a little suspicious regardless of what any 
announcement may say. In my mind I always consider that a x.y.0 release likely 
has some bugs, but as far as I know even the 2.1.11 release still has bugs 
(JIRA is filled with reports) and we have marked that as stable anyway.

So, in my opinion, there is no reason to go off our own and develop a new 
policy for version numbering. The semantic versioning policy is pretty well 
understood and is widely accepted. Plus, even if it isn't perfect, it isn't 
*wildly imperfect* either. I would support creating a new policy if the 
existing one proved itself to be clearly and substantially wrong in multiple 
areas, but that is not the situation here. Any custom policy we create would be 
an extremely minor modification of an existing one. This would make things more 
confusing instead of less.  (We use semantic versioning but with these 3 
modifications...)

Pieter, I know you like to write these things up and experiment and I agree 
that it is all for the good. But this is such a minor issue that I don't see 
the point in expending the effort. My vote is that we stay with semantic 
versioning. In light of that, this backport should result in a 2.2.0 release.

cr

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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread Pieter Hintjens
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Chuck Remes li...@chuckremes.com wrote:

 So, in my opinion, there is no reason to go off our own and develop a new 
 policy for version numbering. The semantic versioning policy is pretty well 
 understood and is widely accepted. Plus, even if it isn't perfect, it isn't 
 *wildly imperfect* either.

Actually, it is imperfect, as I explained. Not sure about the level of
wildness. But definitely broken in tangible ways.

Specifically, the versioning requirements for the contracts (ABI,
protocol) are different than for the implementation. We've been hit
this several times in the past.

Right now the consequence is that we have people wanting to improve
2.1.x (because that's what they run) and a 2.2 release would mean a
whole new cycle, which we're expecting to happen on 3.1.

 Pieter, I know you like to write these things up and experiment and I agree 
 that it is all for the good.

We can simply state all new code, period, must go into 3.1 but that
goes against clear wishes from certain users.

We can simply package these changes in 2.1.x but that goes against clear policy.

I've no personal opinion here, but I am highlighting an increasing
stress in our versioning (two people have asked to fix 2.1 in the
last days).

This does need discussion.

Accuracy demands that we identify stresses and resolve them cleanly.

-Pieter
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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread Pieter Hintjens
So to collect options:

* Start on a 2.2 release which has space for backwards-compatible
improvements to 2.1
* Change the release policy to separate ABI versioning from product versioning
* Freeze all improvements to 2.x and allow these only in 3.1

Votes and opinions welcome.

-Pieter
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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread Chuck Remes

On Apr 3, 2012, at 11:49 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote:

 On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Chuck Remes li...@chuckremes.com wrote:
 
 So, in my opinion, there is no reason to go off our own and develop a new 
 policy for version numbering. The semantic versioning policy is pretty well 
 understood and is widely accepted. Plus, even if it isn't perfect, it isn't 
 *wildly imperfect* either.
 
 Actually, it is imperfect, as I explained. Not sure about the level of
 wildness. But definitely broken in tangible ways.
 
 Specifically, the versioning requirements for the contracts (ABI,
 protocol) are different than for the implementation. We've been hit
 this several times in the past.

This ABI issue is a weakness of the current policy as described at 
http://www.zeromq.org/docs:policies

We can certainly fix that problem without having it bleed over into the 
versioning of the library itself. The ABI rarely changes, so a separate policy 
for it is probably a good idea.

 Right now the consequence is that we have people wanting to improve
 2.1.x (because that's what they run) and a 2.2 release would mean a
 whole new cycle, which we're expecting to happen on 3.1.

I doubt the people clamoring for a new release of 2.something care if it is 
named 2.1.12 or 2.2.0. If we are to stick with a reasonable policy, the next 
release should be 2.2.0. Even the policy page lists 2.2.x as the target for any 
ongoing work on 2.x releases whereas 2.1.x is supposed to get bug fixes only.


 Pieter, I know you like to write these things up and experiment and I agree 
 that it is all for the good.
 
 We can simply state all new code, period, must go into 3.1 but that
 goes against clear wishes from certain users.

I understand that some users want the 2.x series to continue. That's fine. The 
next release that contains new features should be 2.2.0. Or are you saying that 
they want new features to go into 2.1.x? If so, why does it matter to them if 
it is 2.1.x or 2.2.0? And if it doesn't matter, then we should continue with 
the current policy.

 We can simply package these changes in 2.1.x but that goes against clear 
 policy.
 
 I've no personal opinion here, but I am highlighting an increasing
 stress in our versioning (two people have asked to fix 2.1 in the
 last days).

Sure, they want fixes in 2.1 because 3.1 sounds like a big leap. There 
actually is quite a bit of new and different code in the 3.1 branch, so I can 
sympathize. What I *do not understand* is this insistence that fixes and new 
features must go into 2.1. Why can't it be 2.2.0?

 This does need discussion.
 
 Accuracy demands that we identify stresses and resolve them cleanly.

I hope some other folks chime in with an opinion. Unless this is resolved to my 
satisfaction, I am going to fork it! :) (for the humor impaired, this was a 
joke)

cr

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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread Ian Barber
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Chuck Remes li...@chuckremes.com wrote:

 Sure, they want fixes in 2.1 because 3.1 sounds like a big leap. There
 actually is quite a bit of new and different code in the 3.1 branch, so I
 can sympathize. What I *do not understand* is this insistence that fixes
 and new features must go into 2.1. Why can't it be 2.2.0?

  This does need discussion.
 
  Accuracy demands that we identify stresses and resolve them cleanly.

 I hope some other folks chime in with an opinion. Unless this is resolved
 to my satisfaction, I am going to fork it! :) (for the humor impaired, this
 was a joke)


I have no problems with it being 2.2 - I think this is a reasonable new
feature (it's not actually a bit of a mindset change on when to use poll vs
jsut direct send/recv) that justifies the bump. I also don't think it
necessarily has to go immediately stable - going through a RC period or
however it is done is a good way of making people aware there is a new
release and new features to consider, and encouraging people who had other
backports they wanted in to push for inclusion in the version.

+1 on 2.2 with space for backwards compatible enhancements. Ideally
everything added would be backported from master.
+1 to ABI/product versioning split
-1 to no improvements in 2.x. IMO that should happen when 3.x hits stable,
and 2.x should be moved to bugfix only for a period and then properly
deprecated.

Ian
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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread jeff murphy




+1 on 2.2 with space for backwards compatible enhancements. Ideally everything 
added would be backported from master. 
0 to ABI/product versioning split
-1 to no improvements in 2.x. IMO that should happen when 3.x hits stable, and 
2.x should be moved to bugfix only for a period and then properly deprecated. 



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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread Joshua Foster
+1 on 2.2. keep the concept that 2.x is a feature bump and 2.x.x is a patch. 
It doesn't have to correlate to the size of the release.
-1 to no improvements to 2.x. I don't think it should be a policy. If people 
want to maintain older releases, thats up to them. I would hope that as 
things improve on 3.1, people would stop maintaining older releases.

Joshua

On Apr 3, 2012, at 8:30 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote:

 Very nice work. I've backported it to 2.1, it'll go in the next release.
 
 Small point for improvement, please write issues as problems rather
 than solutions, so e.g. Send/receive timeouts missing, makes REQ
 sockets less useful.
 
 -Pieter
 
 On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Joshua Foster jhaw...@gmail.com wrote:
 I back ported the fix in https://github.com/zeromq/zeromq2-1/pull/45
 The issue is logged in https://zeromq.jira.com/browse/LIBZMQ-349
 
 Joshua
 
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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-04-03 Thread Colin Johnsun
I agree with all previous posters, +1 on 2.2. Semver is easy to
understand. You could refactor the code as much as you want but if it
doesn't change the ABI then it is should only be 2.x.x release.

On 4 April 2012 08:21, Joshua Foster jhaw...@gmail.com wrote:
 +1 on 2.2. keep the concept that 2.x is a feature bump and 2.x.x is a 
 patch. It doesn't have to correlate to the size of the release.
 -1 to no improvements to 2.x. I don't think it should be a policy. If people 
 want to maintain older releases, thats up to them. I would hope that as 
 things improve on 3.1, people would stop maintaining older releases.

 Joshua

 On Apr 3, 2012, at 8:30 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote:

 Very nice work. I've backported it to 2.1, it'll go in the next release.

 Small point for improvement, please write issues as problems rather
 than solutions, so e.g. Send/receive timeouts missing, makes REQ
 sockets less useful.

 -Pieter

 On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Joshua Foster jhaw...@gmail.com wrote:
 I back ported the fix in https://github.com/zeromq/zeromq2-1/pull/45
 The issue is logged in https://zeromq.jira.com/browse/LIBZMQ-349

 Joshua

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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-03-31 Thread Pieter Hintjens
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 8:00 PM, MinRK benjami...@gmail.com wrote:

 Does adding to the API/ABI really make sense at this late point in the 2.1.x
 series?  This will be the first such change since the first stable 2.1
 release, as far as I know.

True, but there seems nothing wrong with improving 2.1 stable as long
as there are people using it. It really depends on the risk of the
change vs. its benefit.

 I thought patch releases were only meant to contain bugfixes, etc., not API
 expansion.  It's fine if API/ABI are officially not fixed per major.minor,
 but that seems to have been practice until this point, even if only by
 coincidence.

We've been moving away from the notion that the ABI version defines
the product version, towards gradual improvement with
backwards-compatibility guarantees. This seems more robust and less
painful.

Does anyone have strong opinions either way?

-Pieter
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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-03-31 Thread Andrew Hume
i am wedded to 2.1.x for the forseeable future.
all i need is backwards compatible.

On Mar 31, 2012, at 8:48 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote:

 On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 8:00 PM, MinRK benjami...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Does adding to the API/ABI really make sense at this late point in the 2.1.x
 series?  This will be the first such change since the first stable 2.1
 release, as far as I know.
 
 True, but there seems nothing wrong with improving 2.1 stable as long
 as there are people using it. It really depends on the risk of the
 change vs. its benefit.
 
 I thought patch releases were only meant to contain bugfixes, etc., not API
 expansion.  It's fine if API/ABI are officially not fixed per major.minor,
 but that seems to have been practice until this point, even if only by
 coincidence.
 
 We've been moving away from the notion that the ABI version defines
 the product version, towards gradual improvement with
 backwards-compatibility guarantees. This seems more robust and less
 painful.
 
 Does anyone have strong opinions either way?
 
 -Pieter
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--
Andrew Hume  (best - Telework) +1 623-551-2845
and...@research.att.com  (Work) +1 973-236-2014
ATT Labs - Research; member of USENIX and LOPSA




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[zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-03-30 Thread Joshua Foster
Does anyone have any problem if I back port the send/recv time out socket 
options to 2.1.x?

Joshua
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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-03-30 Thread Pieter Hintjens
On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Joshua Foster jhaw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Does anyone have any problem if I back port the send/recv time out socket 
 options to 2.1.x?

Sounds like a great idea.

We'll have to modify the ABI version. This may impact bindings.

-Pieter
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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-03-30 Thread Joshua Foster
Looking through the code, much of it has already been back ported as part of 
issue 231. Are we still using the https://github.com/zeromq/zeromq2-1 
repository for the 2.1.x development?

Joshua

On Mar 30, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote:

 On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Joshua Foster jhaw...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Does anyone have any problem if I back port the send/recv time out socket 
 options to 2.1.x?
 
 Sounds like a great idea.
 
 We'll have to modify the ABI version. This may impact bindings.
 
 -Pieter
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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-03-30 Thread Pieter Hintjens
Yes, that's the repo. Note that every change needs to be backed by an
issue and a test case.

Apart from the can we change the ABI version number question, it
seems a good investment in 2.1.

So my suggestion is, make an issue, make a test case, then make a pull
request (please also update the ABI version number). I'll test it and
then merge it to libzmq2-1 master.

-Pieter

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Joshua Foster jhaw...@gmail.com wrote:
 Looking through the code, much of it has already been back ported as part of 
 issue 231. Are we still using the https://github.com/zeromq/zeromq2-1 
 repository for the 2.1.x development?

 Joshua

 On Mar 30, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote:

 On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Joshua Foster jhaw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Does anyone have any problem if I back port the send/recv time out socket 
 options to 2.1.x?

 Sounds like a great idea.

 We'll have to modify the ABI version. This may impact bindings.

 -Pieter
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Re: [zeromq-dev] Backport of ZMQ_RCVTIMEO/ZMQ_SNDTIMEO to 2.1.x

2012-03-30 Thread MinRK
Does adding to the API/ABI really make sense at this late point in the
2.1.x series?  This will be the first such change since the first stable
2.1 release, as far as I know.

I thought patch releases were only meant to contain bugfixes, etc., not API
expansion.  It's fine if API/ABI are officially not fixed per major.minor,
but that seems to have been practice until this point, even if only by
coincidence.

-MinRK

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 17:21, Pieter Hintjens p...@imatix.com wrote:

 Yes, that's the repo. Note that every change needs to be backed by an
 issue and a test case.

 Apart from the can we change the ABI version number question, it
 seems a good investment in 2.1.

 So my suggestion is, make an issue, make a test case, then make a pull
 request (please also update the ABI version number). I'll test it and
 then merge it to libzmq2-1 master.

 -Pieter

 On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Joshua Foster jhaw...@gmail.com wrote:
  Looking through the code, much of it has already been back ported as
 part of issue 231. Are we still using the
 https://github.com/zeromq/zeromq2-1 repository for the 2.1.x development?
 
  Joshua
 
  On Mar 30, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Pieter Hintjens wrote:
 
  On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Joshua Foster jhaw...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Does anyone have any problem if I back port the send/recv time out
 socket options to 2.1.x?
 
  Sounds like a great idea.
 
  We'll have to modify the ABI version. This may impact bindings.
 
  -Pieter
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